Well Dwellers Podcast

The Church Built a Stage Instead of a Table

On this episode of the Well Dwellers Podcast, I sit down with my former professor, longtime friend, and missional theologian Dr. Mark Love for a conversation that moves through disability, discernment, grief, belonging, and the future of the church. What unfolds is not simply a discussion about accessibility or inclusion, but a deeper interrogation of the church’s imagination. Together, we explore how the church often frames disabled people as recipients of care rather than as bearers of wisdom, presence, and theological insight. Mark reflects candidly on the failures of the missional movement to fully embody its theology and challenges churches to move beyond cosmetic welcome toward genuine participation and shared life. “The whole Bible is literature from and to people at the margins.” — Dr. Mark Love Drawing from Acts 15 and his book It Seems Good to the Holy Spirit and to Us, Mark describes discernment not as a strategy for church growth, but as a communal practice of listening — one rooted in bodies, tables, grief, and relationship. We wrestle with difficult questions surrounding cure theology, accessibility, advocacy, and why so many churches continue asking why disabled people are absent instead of asking what has made belonging impossible. One of the most striking moments comes as Mark reflects on the church’s responsibility in public life: “The church would bear responsibility at several levels. The first is at the advocacy level… not speaking for disabled people, but giving them an opportunity to speak and to be heard.” He continues: “It is ethically and morally a part of the gospel to vote that way… not for our own comfort and well-being, but for the widow, the orphan, the disabled.” This conversation is deeply personal, theological, and at times uncomfortable — but in the best possible way. It is an invitation to reimagine what it means to belong to one another as the body of Christ. We also somehow manage to talk about Bob Dylan, Gary Clark Jr., vinyl records, discernment practices, and why the church might need fewer stages and longer tables. If you’ve ever wondered whether the church has overlooked disabled voices — or what the Spirit might be saying through those at the margins — this conversation is meant for you. Chapters: 00:31 Meeting Mark 06:07 Hard Truths For The Missional Church 16:43 Looking Towards An Evolving Missional Movement 24:14 From Stages To Tables 25:57 It Seems Good To Us & The Holy Spirit 33:11 Who Bears The Burden? 38:02 Dis/abled & Missional Ears For Dwelling In The Word 46:02 Reframing Social Justice For The Local Church — Advocate, Vote, & Empower 55:56 Introducing The 1582 Collaborative 1:04:23 Bob Dylan & Some Fun Before We Go Resources: Get full access to At The Bottom Of The Well at www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe [https://www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Between Empire & The Rebellion

There’s something about stories—especially the ones that stay with us long after the credits roll. In this episode of the Well Dwellers Podcast, Erik Freiburger sits down once again with Dr. Ty Ragan for a conversation that moves through galaxies far, far away… and lands squarely in the heart of our own spiritual lives. Together, they explore Star Wars not just as entertainment, but as theology in motion—a living parable of good and evil, fear and love, belonging and redemption. As Erik reflects early in the conversation, “stories shape us long before doctrines do.” And perhaps that’s exactly why stories like these matter so much. What unfolds is a deeply imaginative and provocative dialogue around APEST—the apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic, shepherding, and teaching gifts of the church—and how these missional expressions might already be hiding in the characters and narratives we know so well. At The Bottom Of The Well is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. “What if the characters and worlds of Star Wars help us imagine what APEST looks like in real life?” From Luke Skywalker’s journey through the gray spaces of identity, to Leia’s apostolic leadership, to the shepherding presence of unlikely characters like Chewbacca and the Mandalorian, this episode invites listeners to see the gospel not as static doctrine—but as a dynamic, unfolding story. Ty brings psychological depth to the conversation, drawing on thinkers like Jung and Campbell, reminding us that: “You are the main character of your own story, while at the same time you’re playing a supporting cast member to other stories.” And perhaps that’s where this episode really begins to press in—on the tension between empire and rebellion, between control and community, between rigid religious systems and the wild, relational movement of the Spirit. There are moments here that challenge the church directly: “Are we here to serve the empire of the church… or is there something dynamically different?” And others that reimagine what spiritual formation could look like if we dared to take story seriously: “What if you treated a film like you would a piece of scripture… and let it speak to the community as they are gathered?” This is a conversation about imagination—about reclaiming it, trusting it, and allowing it to reawaken something within us that doctrine alone sometimes cannot reach. It’s about disability, belonging, and the prophetic call to reshape our communities. It’s about the dark side within us—and the hope that redemption is never entirely out of reach. And maybe most of all, it’s about learning to see again. So whether you’re a lifelong Star Wars fan, a theologian, a skeptic, or someone simply searching for meaning in the middle of your own story—this episode invites you to step into the myth… and discover what it might be saying about your life, your faith, and the world we’re all trying to build together. Thanks for listening to the Well Dwellers Podcast! This post is public so feel free to share it. Chapters: 00:32 Opening Scenes 04:20 The Truth In Sci Fi 12:41 Roles Star Wars Plays In Shaping Good & Evil 19:25 The Story Of A Rebellious Movement 25:37 The Force & The Gifts Of APEST 34:08 Apostolic 46:29 Prophetic 54:03 Evangelism 1:05:04 Shepherding 1:11:27 Teaching 1:14:00 Psychology Of The Dark Side 1:20:10 Closing Scenes Resources: Get full access to At The Bottom Of The Well at www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe [https://www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Disrupting the Norms That Govern Recognition

There are conversations that feel like moving onto steady ground—comforting, relaxed, and affirming. Then there are conversations that feel more like moving onto sacred ground—holy, creative, and life altering. This is one of those. In this episode of the Well Dwellers Podcast, I sit down with Keith Dow for a dialogue that moves us beyond tidy theology and into the messy, beautiful, and often disruptive realities of being human together. This is not a conversation about disability from a distance. It is a conversation shaped by proximity—by shared life, mutual care, and what Keith calls the undeniable truth that “we were shaped and changed by each other… they represented God to me… and I represented God to them.” Together, we wrestle with what it means to be made in the image of God—not as an abstract doctrine, but as something encountered in hospital rooms, in moments of fear and vulnerability, and in relationships that refuse to fit our categories. Keith names this tension honestly: “We often don’t understand ourselves… let alone those around us… so what is the ethical disposition?” And maybe that’s where this conversation begins—not with certainty, but with posture. A posture of curiosity.A posture of mutuality.A posture that dares to believe, as we explore together, that “true care is mutual care.” Throughout this episode, we explore: * How disability disrupts the “norms that govern recognition” and reveals deeper truths about humanity * Why the church’s obsession with efficiency, productivity, and cognitive ability may be silencing the very voices we need most * How art, culture, and embodied experience open new ways of encountering God beyond words * And what it might look like to become communities where, in my own words, “dignity is not conditional… and interdependence is holy.” There are moments in this conversation that feel like wrestling—like Jacob in the night—where theology is no longer clean or controlled, but lived, felt, and risked. Keith describes one such moment as “this picture of wrestling… trying to protect… and trying to understand… a desire to connect… to make sense of the world together.” And maybe that’s the invitation for all of us. To move beyond theology as information…Into theology as encounter.Into lives where vulnerability is not weakness—but wisdom. So wherever you find yourself today—whether in certainty or in questions, in strength or in limitation—I invite you to lean in. Because this conversation might just change how you see others……and how you see God. Welcome to the bottom of the well. Thanks for listening & watching the Well Dwellers Podcast! This post is public so feel free to share it. Chapters: 00:31 An Invitation Into Sacred Ground 10:12 Discovering A Heart Of Mutual Care 21:17 Disrupting Postures Of Holiness 27:17 Disrupting The Norms Of Discipleship 33:56 Disrupting The Norms Of Culture 40:40 Banquet Of Belonging 44:25 Closing Resources: Keith Dow’s Website: https://keithdow.com/ [https://keithdow.com/] Images of God: https://imagesofgod.ca/ [https://imagesofgod.ca/] Disability and Faith: https://disabilityandfaith.org/author/kdow/ [https://disabilityandfaith.org/author/kdow/] Cross Training Theology & Psychology: https://crosstrainingpsychologyandtheology.com/researcher/keith-dow/ [https://crosstrainingpsychologyandtheology.com/researcher/keith-dow/] Formed Together: Mystery, Narrative, and Virtue in Christian Caregiving By Keith Dow: Available HERE [https://www.amazon.ca/Formed-Together-Narrative-Christian-Caregiving/dp/1481313215/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2YNHWII8YJ7Y9&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.GG4rNGUZbmHAJ5DRhssy9bK0B15MhYxuGKLs-I3t_VPLhqPhNi0--EVP85f6JXUKUc-CjtckDhpIyBswkoyHO7eB9YU4l6qZc5oEZBAnBu0HX13uA1aKGLLla-IfiWZhCiFR6JVrdpCLy7eBwZV9sK7mryuTVJJ0AMZKEEmGHv6R6Xc6PFhxTBq3d7fFj9mb.PpzSzxGpggnIlBplrG9S4EmTru2DMCgcNCg6dVMUHGE&dib_tag=se&keywords=keith+Dow&qid=1776630916&sprefix=keith+dow%2Caps%2C150&sr=8-1] Deeper Communion Seeing The Kingdom Together: https://adeepercommunion.org/ [https://adeepercommunion.org/] At The Bottom Of The Well is a reader & listener-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Upcoming Events: Get full access to At The Bottom Of The Well at www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe [https://www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

The First Move w/ Kirsten Schmaus

At The Bottom Of The Well is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Chapters: 00:47 Opening 03:30 A Fun Start 08:10 Worship Formation 15:39 An Ever Evolving Embodiment of Worship 20:29 Looking For Justice 28:21 When Breakthrough Doesn’t Happen 38:25 Restorative Justice At Work 48:01 Put Your Hands In My Scars 53:03 Banquet Of Belonging 57:46 Closing What if worship isn’t primarily about what we offer to God—but about what God is already doing within us? In this deeply thoughtful and honest conversation, Erik Freiburger sits down with Kirsten Schmaus to explore how worship is shaped, disrupted, and reimagined through the lens of disability, embodiment, and community. Together, they invite us to move beyond performance-driven expressions and into something far more vulnerable, relational, and real. As Erik frames early on, “it is not primarily about fixing worship, but about listening to what worship is already revealing—about God, about bodies, and about who belongs at the center of our shared life together.” Kirsten brings years of experience in worship leadership and theological reflection, naming a critical shift many churches must wrestle with: “We run the risk of becoming the primary actor… and we forget that all worship is initiated by God, and that we respond.” This reframing moves worship from performance to participation—from control to submission. Together, Erik and Kirsten name how contemporary worship spaces can unintentionally mirror ableist assumptions—prioritizing polish, perfection, and predictability over presence, participation, and belonging. As Kirsten insightfully notes, practices like pre-recorded tracks can subtly communicate that “everything needs to move forward perfectly… and that is not welcoming, really.” But this conversation is not merely critique—it is invitation. An invitation to imagine worship spaces where bodies are not managed but received…Where scars are not hidden but honored…Where lament is not avoided but embraced as faithful worship. In one of the most powerful moments of the episode, Kirsten reflects on leading worship the day after the tragic loss of her brother: “I don’t even know how to be in the world right now… but I do know how to worship.” Here, worship becomes not triumph, but trust. Not escape, but presence. This episode also explores: * The tension between expressive vs. formational worship * How ableism can shape liturgy, music, and leadership structures * The possibility of worship as justice enacted in real time * The beauty of communal, embodied practices like shared tables and Eucharist * And what it means to create “submissive spaces”—where we yield not to performance, but to the Spirit’s movement among us At its heart, this conversation asks a provocative and necessary question: What happens when disabled wisdom is not simply accommodated—but received as a gift? Come listen in as we explore “the first move” of worship—not ours, but God’s—and what it might mean to follow that movement into deeper belonging, deeper honesty, and a more authentic life together. Thanks for spending some time with us At The Bottom Of The Well & The Well Dwellers Podcast! This post is public so feel free to share it, leave a comment, and rate it. Resources: James k.A. Smith Books: * ‘Desiring The Kingdom’ — Here [https://www.amazon.ca/Desiring-Kingdom-Worldview-Cultural-Formation/dp/0801035775/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.aNRfI6aatd_WBqA6VhfdpuJPkyfc6aPyKqPsMeYjXsaZ_Yxf3iv3xtajT89kNNDCAtjy8hY26gmUGz4A7smi5a14gCzq-Pf9Pq-i69ypxvY.KOnGwZolhbrZGeEOSqu0FaNRqyFwa4t66ZiL3GiIyoE&dib_tag=se&gad_source=1&hvadid=788663257665&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9209580&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=4153393068025370778--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=4153393068025370778&hvtargid=kwd-364778011677&hydadcr=3250_13880731&keywords=desiring+the+kingdom&mcid=b56686d0ed1c3c33ab45676c135493f6&qid=1775599896&sr=8-1] * ‘You Are What You Love’ — Here [https://www.amazon.ca/You-Are-What-Love-Spiritual-ebook/dp/B012H10K3G/ref=books_amazonstores_desktop_mfs_author_smart_catalog_0?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=KQWi5&content-id=amzn1.sym.6513b37c-7579-4ec7-a18b-1981f4ca1944&pf_rd_p=6513b37c-7579-4ec7-a18b-1981f4ca1944&pf_rd_r=134-8046095-7480214&pd_rd_wg=GDjCC&pd_rd_r=d20f8d17-cb0c-4a12-b9af-f2ed09ace0a8] Rosemarie Garland-Thomson * ‘Extrodinary Bodies’ — Here [https://www.amazon.ca/Extraordinary-Bodies-Figuring-Disability-Literature-ebook/dp/B01N9MY9H3/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1783WX3CW289W&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ot0BIuqJWGWRHAo0p6DnSTILl1yBL4mC4ySb6PGSv0Vl4HJU6nc1VANMbx2fnCP9gB76BKAXCIZPC62KOft4OYAQ0mCzCW9TfWwaux3UrbQmNz1R5vxI0uIabAHw27d0DGb5K7hcMgRHp96QGeQR_0UfJO0mNUsTDOVYdqLevbqktgmVCa2aFWwQnuAXXF42.OPt0u6o2qcVGeJLDAGMcf6TjwoJmVierA7kOaeAL39Q&dib_tag=se&keywords=Rosemarie+Garland-Thomson&qid=1775600047&s=digital-text&sprefix=rosemarie+garland-thomson+%2Cdigital-text%2C126&sr=1-1] Amos Young * ‘The Bible, Disability, and the Church: A New Vision of the People of God’ — Here [https://www.amazon.ca/Bible-Disability-Church-Amos-Yong/dp/0802866085] Judith Butler * ‘Bodies That Matter: On the Discursive Limits of Sex’ — Here [https://www.amazon.ca/Bodies-That-Matter-Discursive-Routledge-ebook/dp/B0B36PG7VQ/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0] Nancy Eiesland * ‘The Disabled God: Toward a Liberatory Theology of Disability’ — Here [https://www.amazon.ca/Disabled-God-Liberatory-Theology-Disability-ebook/dp/B09YJYCXVJ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XLKC8DLXKIRK&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.B0Orc4Ww-8YQgzKcThqJdZg3fv55O8RLA0WFi0dS14Y.yn4nZbNvT-mZFZFucB6biGqB3RCwl6kSbX3SHz_12wQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=Nancy+Eiesland&qid=1775600370&s=digital-text&sprefix=nancy+eiesland+%2Cdigital-text%2C171&sr=1-1] Get full access to At The Bottom Of The Well at www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe [https://www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

The Beautiful Limits of Being Human

Every now and then a conversation reminds you that theology is not merely something we study—it is something we live. It unfolds in hospital rooms and friendships, around dinner tables and church communities, in the places where our vulnerabilities meet the grace of God. In this episode of the Well Dwellers Podcast, Erik Freiburger welcomes back his friend, theologian, and fellow traveler Dr. Michael Morelli. Michael teaches theological ethics, helps lead the Lazarus Center in Langley, British Columbia, and writes the thoughtful Substack Personalist Manifesto(s) [https://substack.com/profile/281182241-personalist-manifestos]. But perhaps more importantly, he speaks as someone whose life has been shaped by community, chronic illness, and a deep reflection on what it means to be human before God. The conversation begins simply—with stories of Italian food, family, and a shared love for music—but it soon moves into deeper waters: disability identity, the language we use to describe one another, the nature of belonging in the church, and the role emerging technologies like AI may play in shaping our future. Along the way, Michael reminds us that our understanding of disability cannot be separated from our understanding of what it means to be human: “If we are created by a God, then that means we’re creatures… we have potential, but we also have limits. And to be a creature is to experience those limits.” Together, Erik and Michael explore how Christian theology might help us move beyond narrow labels and toward a deeper sense of shared creatureliness—one that sees our limitations not as defects, but as part of the beautiful complexity of being human. This conversation also touches on loneliness, friendship, the failures and possibilities of technology, and the calling of the church to become a community where people are not simply accommodated—but truly belong. In another word from Michael, he reflects: “The older I get, the more I appreciate the power of friendship and community… sometimes we understand ourselves best through the people who truly see us.” So settle in for a thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation—one that invites us all to wake up a little more fully to the gift of being human together. Chapters 00:30 Intro & The Desires Of A Foodie 08:22 Personal Connections With A Disabled Life 15:40 Models Of Disability 28:24 Finding Meaning Through Community 36:53 Is Having A Disability Ministry Important? 42:02 AI And Where Are We Between Immortality And The Apocalypse? 1:03:59 Acknowledging The Tensions Between Silos & Intersectionality 1:11:26 Deeper Communion’s ‘Banquet Of Belonging’ 1:21:19 Closing At The Bottom Of The Well is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Resources & Links: Personalist Manifesto(s) [https://substack.com/profile/281182241-personalist-manifestos] — The Lazarus Center (Langley, BC): https://www.thelazaruscentre.org/ [https://www.thelazaruscentre.org/] Canadian Journal Of Theology, Mental Health, & Disability Article: https://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/cjtmhd/article/view/46679 [https://jps.library.utoronto.ca/index.php/cjtmhd/article/view/46679] Get full access to At The Bottom Of The Well at www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe [https://www.atthebottomofthewell.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]