What's Up, Doc?

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Welcome to "What's Up, Doc?" ! This informational interview series is designed to support the professional development needs and career exploration efforts of U-M Postdoctoral Fellows. Each episode features a former U-M Postdoctoral Fellow who will discuss their experience transitioning into their career of choice and share advice to help you navigate your own postdoctoral journey. Created by a U-M Postdoctoral Fellow, for Postdoctoral Fellows, in collaboration with the Office of Postdoctoral Affairs.

Exploring Biotech Frontiers with Dr. Rita Avelar

Join us in this insightful episode as we sit down with Dr. Rita Avelar, a lead scientist at CircNova. Discover her inspiring journey from academia to the forefront of biotech innovation. Dr. Avelar shares her experiences transitioning from a postdoc at the University of Michigan to leading groundbreaking research in RNA therapeutics. Learn about the unique challenges and opportunities in the startup world, the importance of networking, and how diverse experiences can shape a successful career in science. Whether you're an aspiring scientist or curious about the biotech industry, this episode offers valuable insights and advice. Tune in to explore the dynamic world of biotech with Dr. Avelar! "[…] there's definitely a supportive environment and communication that has to happen between you and your postdoctoral mentor in order for them to even know how to help you." Dr. Rita Avelar Guest Rita Avelar obtained her PhD in Molecular and Cellular Pathology from the University of Michigan in 2023. She completed her postdoctoral training at the University of Michigan in 2025, and is now Lead Scientist of Research and Translational Discovery at CircNova. With her team, she aims to leverage their NovaEngine™️AI-platform to discover novel and more durable non-coding RNA therapeutics, to target the undruggable and unlock new treatment options for patients with unmet clinical needs. Connect with Rita on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/rita-a-avelar-phd-538457224/] Resources * Luck is no Accident: Making the Most of Happenstance in Your Life and Career [https://books.google.com/books/about/Luck_is_No_Accident.html?id=kHycY7QKGCYC], book by John D. Krumboltz and Al S. Levin Transcript Anne-Sophie Bohrer Hello everyone and welcome to 'What's Up, Doc?', an initiative developed by the University of Michigan Office of Postdoctoral Affairs. 'What's Up, Doc?' is a professional development interview series created to support the career exploration effort and professional development needs of current U-M postdocs. You will hear from former U-M postdocs discuss their own postdoc experience and share advice on their experience transitioning into their career of choice. We hope you will get the answers you want and need to make an informed decision about your own career. I am Anne-Sophie Bohrer Maurinne Bonnet And I am Maurinne Bonnet. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Today our guest is Doctor Rita Avelar, who completed her postdoc at the University of Michigan in 2025. Rita is now the lead scientist of research and translational discovery at CircNova in Ann Arbor. Welcome Rita and thank you for joining us. Rita Avelar Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Maurinne Bonnet Hi Rita, welcome. Before we dive into what you actually do in your new job, could you please introduce yourself and, with a bit of your background, how did you end up doing your postdoc at the U of M? Rita Avelar Yeah. So I started my postdoc right after I graduated from my PhD, also at the University of Michigan. I did my PhD with Doctor DiFeo in the pathology department and it felt like the right fit for me to stay a little longer to continue the project that I had during my PhD to see it published and also to expand my expertise from this lab and actually leverage their collaborations at the time, which actually led me to the job that I have today. Anne-Sophie Bohrer So you work for CircNova. Can you tell us a little bit about that company and what they do? Rita Avelar Yeah. So CircNova is actually a biotech that is located in Ann Arbor here in Michigan. And what we do, we use our AI driven drug discovery to accelerate the development of RNA therapeutics. So what that really means is that we are using our proprietary AI Nova engine technology in order to help us predict the RNA structure, binding affinities and biological function to help us engineer new medicines and therapeutic approaches and hope to treat human disease. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Very cool. So like I said earlier, you're the lead scientist. So can you tell us a little bit about what this role entails, what it's like, what it looks like day-to-day? Rita Avelar Yeah. So as the lead scientist, what I really do is to establish and direct all CircNova's experimental biology programs and platforms. So what I really do, and what I'm responsible to do, is to bridge the molecular biology in human disease with the drug discovery to accelerate CircNova's pipeline from early stage innovation to hopefully translational discovery. So my day-to-day really is to help design, execute, and oversee the wet lab research. So I seek to validate all the RNA therapeutics that are generated through our AI and then advance the discovery platforms and introduce the therapeutic programs that we have in collaboration with other biotechs as well as academic institutions. Anne-Sophie Bohrer So it seems that you collaborate with a lot of people. So how many people work at CircNova? Rita Avelar Yeah. So we actually are a smaller biotech right now. We've been around for about two years and right now we are a total of 11 employees. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Okay, cool. So you have a startup label, I would say. Rita Avelar Correct yeah. I think we're just finally trying to transition from startup to actually biotech. Maurinne Bonnet You know what it would take to actually transition from startup to biotech? Is this just the number of people working there, is it in terms of funding? What does it take? Rita Avelar Yeah, so I'm learning a lot about this being in the startup and the biotech world you get to wear all these different hats and you're no longer just elite scientists, you're also, you know, the manager and the project manager, and you know, like the investor interface representative, right. So you have all of these different functionalities that you never really got to explore before during your PhD. So from my understanding, it really is devoted on exposure and funding basically. So we have seed rounds and depending on where we are at the moment and how much we're able to fundraise and how far our platform or our product, right, is being put through is what defines us as a biotech instead of a startup. Maurinne Bonnet So if we come back to like when you were a postdoc and you approached your like transition into this career, how did you actually navigate your transition from your postdoc to your new role? And especially, I would be interested in hearing how did you approach that conversation with your PI? Rita Avelar Yeah, that's a really interesting question because I believe it's very different from multiple people and in different labs. So when I joined the DiFeo lab for a postdoc, we both knew and agreed that, you know, I needed to transition into a new role soon enough, just because I had been with Annalisa for a quite a while as a research assistant and then as a PhD student, and we both knew that staying within her umbrella was going to possibly jeopardize my future career just because I needed to explore other avenues and make sure that I can actually flourish as a scientist in different environments. So we both had that perception from early on. The reason why I really stayed as a postdoc is because she was an expert, and the lead expert in micro RNAs, which was something I had never explored during my PhD. And it made sense for me to leverage that expertise from her. And so until I actually got that foundation and taking a lead role in the lab in the micro RNA field, it didn't feel right to move on from my postdoctoral career. And so that conversation started from the very beginning for us since I started my postdoc with her, so that was an easy, you know, transition for me to tell her what my goal really was for those that don't have that relationship with their PIs from the beginning, right? I think it's definitely a conversation that should happen during interviews, because then they know the expectation that you have from the beginning and there's no surprises. I think what really helped me was to connect with multiple different people and Dr. DiFeo was always very helpful in the reach out to the groups that she had as part of their collaborative environment. And also going to conferences really helped me explore what I wanted to do next. So that conversation was pretty standard for me. And as the postdoc lead scientist that I had been the senior scientist in that lab for a while now, I was able to communicate to, to Dr. DiFeo that I wanted to collaborate more with industry partnerships so that I could have that transition eventually and move from academia into more of an industry setting. She established those communications and I was going to be the lead scientist in the DiFeo lab for CircNova and eventually a position was open and became available and I was able to actually transitioned from my postdoc job into the CircNova job. Maurinne Bonnet I think it's a, it's a very good point, like having this conversation as early as possible with the PIs so, like you said, both know the expectations and your PI can also try to be supportive, either by connecting you with people or either you know, just give you the space and the time you need to explore career options, network with people, and stuff like that, yeah. Anne-Sophie Bohrer I would actually add too that it's important to have that conversation early on, like you said, because you might absolutely love working for your PI in their lab but you know, you know you're going to gain, like, so many much more skills and expertise and all these things, but essentially talking with your PI early also allows you to realize whether or not your PI is the great mentor support you're going to need for that transition. And if they're not, that's fine, but at least you know it early on so that you can, like you said, go and find other people to talk to. Like, you know, have informational interview, which is kind of like what this podcast is about, but also like, start networking to find those people that have those connections to really help you long term, when you're ready to transition into your next career. Rita Avelar I couldn't agree more and it was really interesting for me specifically because I transitioned from a graduate student role to a postdoctoral role in the same lab and actually watching my PI adjust to my new needs and my new role was actually really (in) telling on how important that mentorship and support is to adjust with you and your role. The biggest reason why I think I recommend to talk to your PI right away is so that they know what you were looking for because some opportunities come from random conversations that they're having at like not only conference, but even sometimes just, you know, during class or doing, doing any other type of interactive scientific, you know, communication. And they're like "Oh, I know someone that is actually interested in following that career, I should put you in touch with that person". And if you never mentioned it before, you are not going to be in the back of their mind when these opportunities come about. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Yeah. Rita Avelar I tried so hard to find a job that like fit exactly my skill set and that's exactly my dream job and what I wanted to do, and I talked to the right people, I have the right, you know, networking and it just never happened. And you know, this random collaboration that happened through a different graduate student doing a poster presentation, you know, and when they reached out to Dr. DiFeo, she was like "Oh, I know someone who's interested in doing that". And she would have never known, she would have never thought about me or, you know, she didn't even, she could have not even taken that opportunity with that collaboration because she didn't think of someone that could take over if she had too much going on in her lab. And so I think that really speaks for, like you said, there's a balance and there's definitely a supportive environment and communication that has to happen between you and your postdoctoral mentor in order for them to even know how to help you. Maurinne Bonnet It's, it's actually very true and as we are conducting more interviews for the podcast, something we've learned about people transitioning is sometimes they're transitioning into their career with intention; that's the career they wanted, the job they wanted, but most of the time is some kind of like you were at the right place at the right time, it's kind of serendipity or luck. And even, even if you don't know what you want to do, we still encourage you to talk to your PI because they can ask you some questions and, and by answering those questions that help you, you know, figure out your career or like they can direct you to the OPA or the OGPS office. Anne-Sophie Bohrer You mentioned that you had that conversation saying you wanted to transition from academia to industry. So my question is that now that you're working in a startup, was it your initial plan? Like did you know what it was going to be like or was it again, like happenstance, complete coincidence that you ended up there? And if it is, what were the things you leveraged from your training to get you the job essentially? Rita Avelar That's a great question, actually never really brainstormed about that particular thought, so I would say that first of all, biotech or the startup world is definitely something that you learn in the theory, but practically completely different I would say. I knew to expect, you know, like you're going to have to wear different hats and the company starts kind of like small and you have to be there supportive of each other and different people will have different expertises that they will leverage in different scenarios and situations. But it's so much more than that, right? Like startups are really just new and they don't know what to do, and maybe they, they can be the 3rd or the 4th try of a CEO because they're also learning how to adventure through their network, right? Like our CEO is an exceptional fundraiser, but also she came from the automotive industry, so how is she in the biomedical field, right? Like you just get these completely different exposures that you never really thought about and I'll tell you like you really have to have a very talented team to come together and to work together in order to be able to succeed, and we are really the example of that. And I don't say that just because I work there, but it's just, like, amazing how these completely different talents that come from different backgrounds can come together and just be amazing at what they do. And you know, like my background is pure biology, and actually protein biology and oncology, and now I'm doing RNA biology and it's completely different, you know, disease setting and neurophysiology and need to leverage AI which I had never had exposure to, right? So you can't really train for this. You kind of just go with the flow and you just have to be really open minded and willing to explore and to just risk. And that's what I really like about the startup world is that every day is different. You don't really have a set expectation and it's going to go that way every time. Obviously, with that comes, you know, risk and that risk for us postdocs is something that it's definitely outside of our comfort zone. When you know when we leave Michigan and we have OPA has been incredible for me specifically, OGPS, and as a graduate student, I leveraged so much of the Rackham opportunities as well. So it's a little different and I'm a little bit more used to that, having that support and in the biotech world, you're kind of just like are out for yourself and for me as an international postdoc, that risk sometimes is a little bit scary just because you never know what's going to happen. Funding is very volatile, and it can happen that you're not going to be able to continue in that position for a lot longer. And that's a little scary because it's less stable and, you know, having to work my visa situation with my working permit is definitely something that I need to keep in mind and that was a lot more stable at the University of Michigan. But I work with incredible people, and they're very willing to, to see me through in this role and that's what I have for me that a lot of people unfortunately don't have. And I am honestly rediscovering my whole career and it is nothing what I expected. As a PhD student I actually did an internship at Merck, so I knew I wanted industry then and that's really when I had my first taste of what it felt like to be outside of academia. And I that's what I wanted to do, that's what I thought I wanted to do. I wanted to go into industry, I wanted to go to big pharma to have a stable job, you know, a nine to five that would still give me security but wanted to explore and be independent in my research career. And when I interviewed for the biotech and really asked each person what they would do in their day-to-day and how they would leverage their scientific ideas, I fell in love with it and I just, I honestly do not regret it at all. Maurinne Bonnet So you said like you, you did an internship at Merck. And so, what are the main differences you see between, you know, kind of a big pharma like Merck or a big company and CircNova and what made you choose a small company versus going back to Merck or, or another big pharma? Rita Avelar Yeah, that's a really great question. I asked myself that question almost every day just because, like, something big, as big as Merck, right? Like I said, you have a lot of financial stability or at least more than the biotech world. And I would say the programs are a lot better established so you kind of get hired for a discovery program that you know, at least initially, what the main overall goal of the company is right and these companies are very well established and they have been doing this type of work for a really long time. What I love about the big pharma is the type of people that you learn from, right? Like you have very experienced people that have done this for a really long time. They are very well knowledged in what drug discovery is, what the oncology opportunity really looks like, right? And you have scientists from all over the world and from all kinds of backgrounds you have, you work with chemists and with the pharmacology group and the in vivo group, so you really are this giant group of people that you really learn from. In the biotech, right, you start small and what you don't know, instead of reaching out to an expert that is in your group, you have to just go and figure it out yourself. So that was scary in the beginning, you know, like, because I have an oncology background in proteins. Why would I know RNA in neurophysiology, right? It, it, it just like you become an expert in such a niche field that you're comfortable with, then you kind of forget that you have a PhD and you can adventure yourself through other expert fields. So that is something that I thought I wouldn't thrive in, and I was definitely wrong, because I think that actually has challenged me. Me and Maurinne talk so much about this. It's like, do you really know what you want to do? Are you really going to be good at it? Are you going to be able to thrive in that environment? Is it scary to go a little bit out of your comfort zone because you've been doing this type of research for so long? And in my case, I rediscovered myself and I kind of felt like I was reaching a plateau in my career where I was really good at what I do, and I have excellent hands to execute the experiments that I needed, but I actually missed using my brain a lot more, you know, like I needed to push myself outside of my comfort zone to rediscover myself as a scientist. Maurinne Bonnet You know, it's very funny what you just said, because I also do some consulting for a company that actually work in the exact field I'm supposed to be an expert in, according to my PhD and my postdoc experience, and every single day I work with them, I realized how little I know in this field I'm supposed to be the expert, especially from academia to industry or biotech, startups like you have to learn so much more and you're like, well, actually, I know nothing. (laughs) Or actually I realized what I don't know and I'm working to know those things, but very interesting to get your insights in the differences big pharma and startup. Anne-Sophie Bohrer And I will even add that I loved how you said I reminded myself I have a PhD because it is something that I say often in advising, like one-on-one advising meetings, especially people who, who want to remain in a technical field where it's like, yes, you have the techniques, you have the technical background, but even if it's not your field of expertise, you have a PhD. By default, having a PhD, and if you have that postdoc experience even more, it's essentially your golden ticket to say I can learn, I can do the research, I can look for the papers, I can find a way to understand what people mean, even if it's not the thing that I'm an expert in. That's literally what this is about, like solving problems and troubleshooting and finding the information to move along. Rita Avelar You've done it before, and you can do it again. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Absolutely! Maurinne Bonnet Yeah, and that's something I think especially like small biotech and startup they like about people is like they're I think looking for not necessarily just the skill sets, but also like a personality. Like you said, they want somebody who would like fit within the team of experts to actually help the company grow. Where in the big pharma, when you look at job offers and posting on LinkedIn, they want somebody who is very expert in one specific field, like somebody with a PhD plus 5-7 years of experience. When you look at what startups are looking for if they post something, because usually it's the network, and when you see a posting out there, usually it's like they're looking for a personality, somebody who is going to be willing to roll their, their sleeves and, like, get the job done and not, let's say, just somebody with a PhD and X years of experience. Rita Avelar I agree and I have to say, being in the job market for as long as I was before I secured this job, it's very overwhelming and it's extremely discouraging because sometimes you find the job that you're like "This person is describing my PhD career" and you apply and you're just a piece of paper, right? And I don't even know if I would have gotten, I believe my skill set would bring me there, but I really don't know if I would have secured the CircNova job unless I was able to prove myself, like you said, as a whole package, right? Not only as a scientist, because whoever has a PhD you can probably do what I do. But I'm more than that, right? Like I am more than what my paper looks like. I, I can bring you not only expertise, but like the group dynamic, the team dynamic. I have mentored so many people: how am I able to convey, you know, those extra soft skills if you don't talk to me, if you don't give me the opportunity to show you that I'm much more than just my PhD. And sometimes that gets really discouraging and you lose yourself a little bit in this sea of job opportunities that you feel like you're never good enough to land. And that happened to me obviously, and I'm sure it will happen to most of the postdocs that will listen to this podcast. Like, don't give up: the job out there that is meant to be yours will find you some way, somehow. And I feel like the key is to never give up, and whenever you think that there's a small chance or there's little opportunity in this conference, or talking to this, to this person or going to even like a talk at U of M, right? Just go and talk to the speaker. Maybe they'll have more information that you didn't think about or they have a network that they're willing to share with you. And I know it's so cliche because people are like "Oh yeah, networking, networking" but it's so true and you cannot make it more obvious, you know, like people say, like, "Go on LinkedIn", but it's so real, like I have seen the job postings from even CircNova, and, you know, it's like you said, the specific PhD and extra amount of years in industry , and like I was able to sit down with the scientists and with the CEO and I was like "This is what I have to offer, I can be that person to you" and you just have to connect with the people that you work with or that you're potentially going to work with. And that brings you very far and a long way that I think sometimes unfortunately is what, you know, LinkedIn has brought us is just this, you're a paper, you're no longer a face. And it's really hard to convey yourself and what you can do without that personal, you know interaction. Anne-Sophie Bohrer It's, it's funny that you say that because going back to earlier, right, the coincidence, happenstance, all these things I read a book about this, and I also, from personal experiences, always tell people when it comes to networking because it is such a word that literally people recoil when you talk about networking, like physical reaction to be like "I don't want to do that". Ria Avelar Yeah. (laughs) Anne-Sophie Bohrer They don't even realize that networking happens everywhere. I say yeah at a conference, right, we always think like I need to network, I need to go to a conference and I need to talk to all these people. Sure. Going to a BBQ organized by your neighborhood. Rita Avelar Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Is a networking opportunity because you don't know who you're going to meet. You don't know that your neighbor, three doors down, works for so and so, and it turns out they're looking to hire someone with a PhD. Rita Avelar You're so right. Anne-Sophie Bohrer And you are that person. And this is why I think it's important for people to understand that networking is not just going to talk to experts in the field, because this is, I think, what's really scares people, right? It's the idea of, like, you're in a you're a PhD student and you need to network to find a postdoc, so you need to go talk to PIs, and it is so scary. It's like, yeah, but you can go pick-up your child at daycare or school and engage in conversation with the other parents. You don't know what they do. And maybe just through this relationship, you know, you're going to meet more people and they're going to introduce you to someone who works there and does this. Rita Avelar Absolutely. Anne-Sophie Bohrer So I think it's really great that you're saying like "Yeah, I showcased that I am more than just my PhD and I'm a person. This is the personality that you're hiring." Maurinne Bonnet Sometimes it can happen when you even don't notice it. Anne-Sophie Bohrer That's been a great conversation, and I think we need to wrap it up. So we're going to move on to our rapid fire questions. Rita Avelar Oh jeez. OK, I'm ready. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Take a deep breath. Literally first answer that comes to mind. Rita Avelar Let's do it. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Let's go. So do you prefer watching football on Sunday or reading a book? Rita Avelar Girl, I don't like football. (laughs) Book for sure. (laughs) Anne-Sophie Bohrer What helps you stay motivated during challenging projects? Rita Avelar I focus on the bigger goal. I have an anchor, and I just focus on it. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Okay. What is a fun fact about you? Rita Avelar I would say a fun fact is I did my high school in Hong Kong. That's where I learned English. Maurinne Bonnet Oh my God! Anne-Sophie Bohrer What would you tell your kids to encourage them to pursue a career in science? Rita Avelar (laughs) I'm always about, you know, follow your dreams because my parents didn't even finish high school, right? So I would say if that's what she wants, well, I say she because I have a baby girl. If that's what she wants to do, I'm 100% you know on it and I will bring her to every science-related fun activity that she wants to pursue that career. But for me, the most important message is always follow your dreams. Anne-Sophie Bohrer And finally, which country do you dream of traveling to? Maurinne Bonnet You better say France! Rita Avelar I've already been there. (laughs) Dream? Okay, I would say there is no one country. I would love to do a tour through Europe because I am from Portugal and it's ridiculous that I have not traveled enough around Europe when I was there and even honestly, shame on me, I should definitely travel around Portugal before I adventure myself through other countries. Because there's, like, I haven't even been to the islands. I, yeah, Portugal. I will say my final answer is Portugal. Anne-Sophie Bohrer (laughs) Great. Thank you. Maurinne Bonnet Thank you so much, Rita, for sharing your journey with us, sharing your tips and insights for our audience. If you want to know more, please make sure to connect with Rita on LinkedIn and just add a small message that you've listened to the podcast and you want to learn more about her journey or her job. Thank you again, Rita, and we wish you the best. Rita Avelar Thank you, guys, so much. I really appreciate this initiative and I hope that you guys can help all postdocs out there because you're not alone. So yeah, feel free to reach out. I'm more than happy to share more of my story or even my network if that helps you and best of luck.

9. mar. 2026 - 30 min

Navigating Career Paths in Academia and Beyond

In this first episode of "What's Up, Doc?", Dr. Kaylee Steen shares her insights on career exploration and professional growth for postdocs, highlighting pivotal programs supporting the personal and professional development of Postdoctoral Fellows at U-M. She opens up about her own journey from graduate school to her current leadership role, emphasizing the importance of understanding personal strengths and the value of skill development. Tune in to discover strategies for navigating the complexities of the postdoc journey, and finding your path in academia and beyond! "You have to commit to the process and you have to dedicate time to it." Dr. Kaylee Steen Guest Kaylee Steen is the Associate Director of Professional Development and Trainee Support at the University of Michigan Medical School in the Office of Graduate and Postdoctoral Studies (OGPS). Kaylee directs the Professional Growth, Inclusion & Well-Being team who offers a suite of services and programming for graduate students and postdoctoral research fellows. Kaylee also serves as the Medical School leader supporting postdoc affairs, including advocating for equitable postdoc policies and training. The collective goal of Kaylee's team is to help trainees thrive academically, professionally and personally while at the University of Michigan and beyond. Kaylee holds a PhD in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology from the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities. She completed her postdoctoral training at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor in the Department of Cell and Developmental Biology and is one of the inaugural fellows of the University of Michigan Medical School's Research Operations, Management & Strategy (ROMS) fellowship. Connect with Kaylee on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/kayleesteen/] Resources * Michigan Medicine Office of Graduate and Postdoctoral Studies (OGPS) [https://medschool.umich.edu/offices/ogps] * University of Michigan Medical School's Research Operations, Management & Strategy (ROMS) fellowship [https://medresearch.umich.edu/office-research/about-office-research/research-operations-management-strategy-fellowship] * Michigan Institute for Clinical and Health Research (MICHR) [https://michr.umich.edu/] * Biointerfaces Institute [https://biointerfaces.umich.edu/] * Center for Research on Learning & Teaching (CRLT) [https://crlt.umich.edu/] * Preparing Future Faculty (PFF) seminar [https://crlt.umich.edu/programs/pffseminar] * Teaching Foundations Series [https://crlt.umich.edu/teaching-foundations-series] * Postdoctoral Short Course on College Teaching in STEM [https://crlt.umich.edu/programs/psc] * Developing Future Biologists (DFB) [https://www.developingfuturebiologists.com/] * Macomb Correctional Facility Lecture Program [https://umpda.rackham.umich.edu/connect-network/outreach-opportunities/] (U-M Postdoctoral Association Outreach opportunities webpage) Transcript Anne-Sophie Bohrer Hello everyone and welcome to 'What's Up, Doc?', an initiative developed by the University of Michigan Office of Postdoctoral Affairs. 'What's Up, Doc?' is a professional development interview series created to support the career exploration efforts and professional development needs of current U-M postdocs. You will hear from former U-M postdocs, discuss their own postdoc experience, and share advice on their experience transitioning into their career of choice. We hope you will get the answers you want and need to make an informed decision about your own career. I am Anne-Sophie Bohrer. Maurinne Bonnet And I am Maurinne Bonnet. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Today our guest is Dr. Kaylee Steen who completed her postdoc at the University of Michigan in 2021. Kaylee is now the Associate Director of Professional Development and Trainee Support in the University of Michigan Medical School Office of Graduate and Postdoctoral Studies, or OGPS for short. Welcome Kaylee and thank you for joining us. Kaylee Steen Hello, thank you for having me. Good morning. Maurinne Bonnet Hi Kaylee. So as Anne-Sophie just mentioned you work at the OGPS. So could you tell us a little bit more what is the OGPS office? What are you doing? What is their main mission there? Kaylee Steen Yeah, so at OGPS, we are in the medical school within the University of Michigan, and specifically we sit within the Office of Research, but our mission is really the educational arm of the medical school. And more specifically, we focus on education for biomedical researchers. So we don't have a hand in the medical education for MDs. We really focus on PhDs in training as well as postdocs. I oversee a team that kind of broadly focuses on professional growth, inclusion, and well-being. So we do workshops, have resources, advising, counseling to help people really with all aspects of their training and their career journey outside of the lab. So focusing on things like career exploration, professional skill building and competency building, more kind of personal development and holding events and activities that focus on belonging and really kind of celebrating our community and the different places and backgrounds people are coming from. And then, of course, overall well-being. And so we have two licensed therapist clinicians on our team that do therapy as well for our trainees. Maurinne Bonnet Oh, okay. I didn't know about the therapy. Anne-Sophie Bohrer That's amazing. Yeah. Maurinne Bonnet So you said you were mostly providing resources and programs, workshops for all the well-being and professional development. Would you maybe describe two or three programs that you think postdocs that are listening to us today would like to hear about? Kaylee Steen So for postdocs, I think one of our, what I'd call maybe at this point, really one of our flagship programs for postdocs is the YouCubed (You3) Leadership and Management Program. When I was a postdoc, I helped develop it with a couple of postdoc colleagues, but I was a part of that team that really thought about like, what are the needs that postdocs have in order to build an independent career, regardless of what career path they go down. So regardless if they go to academia, industry, government, nonprofit, what are sort of key common professional competencies that individuals really need to develop and hone to be successful? And so we built this eight module course that focuses on things that individuals need to build kind of within themselves. So their own competencies, things like being aware of their biases or understanding what are my strengths and how can I leverage those strengths. And then we shift into more about, okay, how do you then develop a team. How do you do more consistent interview strategies in order to pick the right candidate for your team? How do you then build trust in that team and effective teammanship? How do you manage a project, manage budgets, resources, et cetera? And so we built this You3 program, I think it was back in 2018 that we started the build of it. And we're now, you know, moving into 2025-2026, we're still running that program on a regular basis. And so postdocs join as a cohort. They go through this eight-week program on these various topics. We've also started a K99/R00 boot camp for postdocs. We did that boot camp last year as a pilot, and then we actually got a Burroughs Welcome Fund grant to build out this e-learning platform so people could either participate in live sessions as a boot camp or to try to make it more accessible for postdocs' really busy schedules, do this more self-paced program where they get guided through all the different steps and sections of the grant. So that is being run. It's about to start this fall. So we're hoping that becomes a regular part of our programming. And then for more broad programming, we have other cohort programs that really focus on career exploration. So trying to figure out like, what are the things that I really love to do? What am I good at? What are the careers that are out there that could align with those skills and those values? And so we have a couple of different cohort programs that tackle that in slightly different ways. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Great. Well, that's a lot of work. So now we're going to go back to you and your own journey, Kaylee. So can you tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to choose to pursue this career? Kaylee Steen Yeah, so I used to think that I was maybe kind of like an oddball person in my graduate school program, in my postdoc program. But as I've gotten kind of into my professional groove, I've realized more people than not kind of have experienced what I've experienced. So, and I just say that as a caveat for those listening out there, sometimes I think you can perceive that you're this like outlier, right? That you don't quite know what you want to do or you're sort of floundering. But really, I think it's actually like the majority of people that have this feeling. So to kind of say that and then back up, when I was in graduate school, like most PhD students, I had to teach a couple of different semesters of courses and found that like I very much loved that process of coming up with lesson materials, learning materials, coming up with engaging ways to explain a process or, you know, a biological mechanism or something like that in an interesting way. And so I got sort of sucked into this world of pedagogy and understanding how people learn, how people retain and apply information. And so as I was getting involved in that, I took a preparing future faculty course at the University of Minnesota. I did an adjunct faculty position at a local school, Macalester College. And I thought,like, okay, this is it. Like this is for sure what I want to do. I absolutely loved teaching at Macalester. I liked the environment of that smaller school that was really focused on education. So being in the classroom and helping people learn really complex topics. But then when I became a postdoc at the University of Michigan, that was not accessible for me to be able to go and teach in a classroom and be, you know, the instructor on record, right? For various reasons. There are barriers to that. And I didn't understand that when I took the postdoc. I figured, you know, I'm going to do this postdoc. I'm going to get a little bit more research experience so that I can go to, in my mind, I was anticipating going to a smaller university where I might have a small research lab, but it would be mainly teaching. But what I had heard from people is that the postdoc is valuable in order to kind of come up with that research project or program that you could bring to a school. So that was kind of my vision, my thought process. But again, I didn't realize that I wouldn't be able to teach. And so I decided to get involved in other programs that were still educational in nature. I did Developing Future Biologist. Luckily, I was in the Department of Cell and Development Biology (CDB), that is the host of Developing Future Biologist, DFB. So that was like a very easy transition to get involved in that and kind of run that program. And I found that I really liked the act of also developing a program. So we had to do big programmatic shifts because of COVID. And so I kind of took the lead on figuring out like we created these at home lab kits that we shipped to every participant to do these little experiments at home. And just kind of figuring out, like, how to solve those problems and logistical problems and administrative challenges and like managing the budget. We got a couple of grants for that program itself. So I learned that grant management side of things. And so it really opened my eyes to all of these different aspects of what I would think of like administration. And I didn't know this at the time, right? Like that it was really administrative type work and programmatic type work. And then at the same time, I got involved with the You3 program that I mentioned earlier. So I was starting to kind of have my hand in more of this higher ed administration. And during kind of that self-discovery of realizing like, okay, there's these other things that I like to do to help people develop, to help people grow. I'm not necessarily in a classroom, but I'm still a part of the learning process. And so it was around that same time when this administrative fellowship, research administrative fellowship, was first launched. And so I was finishing my first year of my postdoc. That was introduced. I became aware of it. And I realized, like, that could open up a lot of doors for me by just learning about this greater research administration, education administration infrastructure and get a lot of exposure to that in a very structured way. And so that was really like the turning point. I applied and was accepted into that fellowship position, which then completely opened my eyes to all the different types of ways we can support trainees, support research. You know, there's research development, there's, of course, educational development, there's faculty development. There's like so many different aspects beyond just within the classroom setting where you're helping people develop something. And that's the piece that I found I really liked, whether it was in the classroom, giving a lecture, giving a workshop. It was that development piece of it that I really enjoyed. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Just a quick follow-up. So you mentioned that fellowship you did during your postdoc. The name of the fellowship, it's the Research Operations, Management, and Strategy Fellowship. Kaylee Steen Correct. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Right? ROMS. I'm just saying this so people can then look it up. So can you expand a little more really on the structure maybe of the fellowship, but also, like you said, it really expanded your horizons on really what higher ed administration can look like. So can you just explain a little bit what it was like and what you actually did during the fellowship? Kaylee Steen Yeah, so I will say my experience was a little bit unique than how a future ROMS fellow will experience this program because when myself and my other fellow, Kelly Kennaley, who's actually now the program, she manages that fellowship as part of her job. When we joined, you know, we're the first two fellows. There was structure, but it was also kind of made, not made clear to us, but we were welcomed in as a part of the team to continue building out the program. And, you know, for me, like, I actually love that because again, I had a chance to like have a real touch and a real hand in like developing the fellowship, how I, based off of our experience, how we thought it could be developed in a way that was like really meaningful and really impactful. With that being said, basically, kind of in a distilled version, the way that it has now developed and sort of solidified, and apologies to Kelly if you're listening, if I get little details wrong, but essentially you go through what are called core rotations. So these are when you first start the fellowship. And these are units within the Office of Research that are kind of like the core key foundational units that are needed to run a research infrastructure, an academic medical center. So that includes things like, I don't know what it's called now, but at the time it was called like the leadership rotation or something like that. And that was working more closely with like the dean's office and those individuals, kind of executive level leadership. Worked with department chairs, associate deans, things like that. Worked on a couple of different projects with them and supported some of the committees. We were very engrossed in like their meetings and conversations. You really got to see and hear what are the things that they have to address, what are their challenges, what are their barriers, how do they talk about it, how do they solve those problems. It was very intimidating and intense. And like half the time, I wasn't sure what they were talking about, but it was a really good exposure to see like, these are the kinds of challenges that they have to deal with on a regular daily basis. So that was very interesting. And then we went on to other core rotations like IRB, so the institutional review board, the research core facilities, animal ULAM, so the animal care and husbandry, those kinds of things where you're like, you absolutely have to have those units to run this like a major research enterprise. And so we would spend a few weeks with each of those units, work with their leadership or other staff members to kind of get an understanding of their business operations, the services that they provide. We would work on small, little projects with them just to get a little of experiential learning. But a lot of it is like shadowing, sitting in on meetings. And then based off of that experience, you also have the opportunity to do what are called elective rotations. So for instance, OGPS would be one of the units where you can do an elective rotation. And it's, you know, again, a several weeks where you're sitting in on meetings, doing little projects. And then what's really cool is after those initial rotations, it's a little bit of like a choose your own adventure where you can select what are called impact projects to get really involved with certain units or certain activities that you have a specific interest in. When I was a fellow, we had to kind of, um, seek out people. We had to like reach out to him and say like "Hey, I'm this weird fellow like that you've never heard of in this program. You've never, you know, well, like, can I work with you?" So we had to kind of like, uh, like hit the pavement in that way but it ended up being totally fine. I met with a lot of really interesting units and people and ended up doing projects with MICHR, so the Michigan Institute of Clinical and Health Research, with their team science group, and we worked on, doing these like brainstorming sessions. I think at the time they called them research jams, to help people ideate projects that they could do with a multidisciplinary group of scientists. I also worked with faculty development on coming up with tools and resources for new faculty and helping them kind of get situated and be successful in those first few years of, of their, of their career, early career faculty. So that was really interesting. I got to talk with a lot of different faculty and, like, really understand all of the challenges that they face, not just when they start, but really like throughout their whole career. And so that gave me, I think like a more intimate understanding of all the challenges that faculty have to face that I like just didn't quite appreciate as a postdoc or a graduate student. And then I also did do some work with OGP and it was actually revamping the You3 program. So that's been kind of like a constant in my trajectory. So yeah, so that is those impact projects that wrap up the second year of the fellowship. And then the idea is as you're getting closer to the end, you start your job search and, oftentimes, there's one of the groups that you've worked with. And if the timing works out, just so if there's a position available, oftentimes people end up getting placed in that kind of fashion because they've already worked with these units or these groups on these projects, and there's a need so you can pair up in that way. For me, it was not through a project, but I had worked with a managing director, Nadine Wong, at the Biointerfaces Institute. And it was really like just small little interactions, but I think she recognized kind of the skills I was developing in this fellowship and it piqued her interests enough where a few positions opened up that were being administered by the Institute. And so she's just sent them my way. It was like a classic networking situation where you interact with someone, you make a good impression and they say "Hey, these jobs are like coming online, like make sure you apply for it (hint, hint)". And so that kind of helped elevate my applications. Maurinne Bonnet Yeah, well, your fellowship sounds very broad and sounds like you've met a lot of people and that kind of like you just said, made you land your first job. And so as we're hearing about your story, I think we're wondering if you're a candidate that, you know, didn't have the chance to pursue one of those fellowships like the ROMS you just did, what do you think would make them competitive for those types of positions? Kaylee Steen Yeah, it's a really good question. While it was extremely helpful and it is like a very valuable program, it by no means precludes you or excludes you from securing positions within research administration or higher ed administration. I think what I tell people is that if you're interested in certain areas, just like you would with any kind of professional development or career development, it really starts first with understanding the landscape, so kind of doing the homework to explore career opportunities, research them, talk with people. And that's a big part of what the fellowship was, right? But it's like structured, dedicated time, which is the benefit of it. But you as just an individual can do all of that as well. But you do have to commit to the process and you have to dedicate time to do it. So I think that's a little bit of the sticking point for people, right? We're all really busy. If you're a postdoc, you have a full-time job. So like it is hard to dedicate that time to doing the research, to having conversations with people. And it can feel a little bit overwhelming. So I would say like, one, understand that it is a process that's going to take time. Before I did the fellowship, I probably spent the whole two years of my research postdoc in CDB, not every single day, every single moment, but throughout those two years, I would have phone calls with people if I saw them on a panel or if I was at a workshop or something, and there was someone from the NSF or the National Academy of Sciences, and I'd think like "Oh, that's a cool type of job" and I would just cold email them and ask for a phone call. And I would have, you know, 30-minute, 45-minute, this was before like Zoom was really a thing. So I'd have a conversation with them in the morning, like while I'm having coffee or breakfast, and I was doing my own career exploration, having informational interviews. So I committed to that process, even before the fellowship. And so I think even without the fellowship, I probably would have ultimately ended in a similar space that I currently am. So that's one thing, really committing to the process and understanding that it takes time. The other thing I would say is really, you know, utilize the resources that are available. So in the medical school, OGPS, we have career advisors, we have two individuals that you can meet with, they can coach you through the career exploration process and help you come up with a structured process for doing these kinds of things, and giving you advice, resources, etc. Other postdocs, right, like we have the Office of Postdoctoral Affairs, of course, Anne-Sophie! Anne-Sophie Bohrer Yes, you do! Kaylee Steen We have additional resources for you as a postdoc from any college that you can access and utilize to help you with this, with this career exploration, skills development, so you can come up with a plan and a structure and a framework. You're not on your own. And I think people are always surprised when they utilize our services after being here for a while, and then they see like "Oh, here's how we can actually help you or here's some ideas we can give you". I'm always kind of interested in like the surprised look of people afterwards, like "Oh, that was really helpful, I should have, you know, moved two years ago". So that's the other thing I would say, again, just utilize the resources. If you're at the University of Michigan, you're already very fortunate in the sense that we are very resource rich as a university. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Oh, yeah. And if I may add something to all that, Kelly, it's that you said it before, you're not alone in freaking out about what comes next. And I will also say the sooner you start asking yourselves those questions of like, what do I want to do next, the better, right? And I know that I've been there myself, you start a postdoc, you're getting the lay of the land, you're not really sure what you are doing, but you know you have to do all your research. So it takes a lot of your time, obviously, it's your job, but also it takes a lot of brain space, right, to basically get going on a brand new environment, a brand new project. So it's kind of odd to say, as soon as you start your postdoc, start thinking about your next step. But I know that from my experience, I wish I had done this too, right. And I had my next step all figured out when I started my postdoc. And within 18 months, it completely changed. And I was like "Oh, oh no, what do I do now?" So I was forced to have that train of thought and go on that journey. But it's also completely fine if you really don't know. And that's why OPA, OGPS counselors are here, right? Like you can come to see us and just be like "I'm lost, I really don't know what I want to do". And it's fine. It's completely fine. Kaylee Steen I will say, when I was a postdoc and realized like, yeah, the whole like teaching thing was going to be kind of tricky. And I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I met with, I think it was Maggie (Gardner) and Shoba (Subramanian), but it was like a joint career advising session. It was that basically like, I don't know what to do. I don't know if Maggie remembers this, but like, I definitely started crying because I was so stressed and anxious and I mean, they were so helpful and empathetic, right? And I think a lot of the people here within Michigan, like have that attitude and that affect of like, we're here to help you and we are empathetic to your challenges. Most of us have also been, have been through that and experienced that and that stress and that turmoil and that uncertainty. And so I think that that's actually just like a really great step if you are completely lost or unsure is to set up a meeting with Anne-Sophie in the OPA or with myself or someone on my team members within OGPS to just start that conversation. And it's a safe space to do so. It's a safe space to say like "I thought I wanted to do this, but I'm not sure. I don't know if I like, I'm going to like it. I don't know if I'm that good at it." Like for me, I didn't have the attention span to do really methodical research. There comes to a point where I had to like really sit myself down of like, with the process of research, what skills those take, like, do I have that personality? Is that really me? And at the end of the day, the process of research and the scientific process is just not me as a human being. That's not quite how my, you know, I was like, I got through it. I found my little tricks of the trade. But for me, where I sit within the research space and within the scientific community is really supporting and helping the scientists and the researchers and the trainees in their development. Like that's, that's where I thrive. And I think there was like almost an element of like embarrassment or shame of like "Oh, I'm not as good at this thing as my colleagues or as my other postdocs or students" but it's, but it's like, that's the wrong way of thinking of it. And like, and that's why actually, in a lot of our programming, we really focus on your strengths rather than your deficits, because that kind of helps reframe the way you think about like yourself and what you bring to the table. I have certain strengths in other areas that I can really leverage and help the overall scientific community in ways that I can tackle in a more meaningful way than if I'm at the bench as a scientist. That's just not where my true skill set lies. Maurinne Bonnet Yeah, you don't imagine how much I can relate to that. Like, I think for me, realizing that I was not the best at the bench, it was kind of a grief too, because you're like, you were raised as a scientist to be at the bench to perform science. And suddenly you're realizing that actually your strengths are not at the bench, they are elsewhere. And it's something that you have to give up on that idea that you were working, you know, since your undergrad, grad studies and, and it's like, wow, it's disturbing. So you had a first interest in teaching, and then you had to kind of give up on that when you study your postdoc. So I'm wondering, for other postdocs that are listening, are there really no opportunities to teach, even like today, at the U of M? I feel like there are some programs, maybe? Kaylee Steen Yeah, so I would say one thing again, like University of Michigan has so many resources. This CRLT, they have, I know, at least in the past, and I think that they're still doing it, they had a short course for postdocs on teaching and like pedagogy and design. And so just from like a learning and skills development standpoint, I would definitely recommend either looking into that short course or just other things that CRLT has to offer. You know, for ways that they can support postdocs in developing kind of your knowledge and your skill sets around teaching. I believe that there are opportunities to like get in the classroom and maybe teach some lessons or topic within a course, but you're not necessarily like the instructor on record. And actually, I would say if I could take like a step back, regardless of your interest is in teaching or some other type of career or, you know, some type of need that you have. I think it is really important to develop a strong communication strategy with your postdoc advisor. I will say I made that mistake. I think it was most evident when I was a graduate student, I did not talk to my PhD advisor about like the teaching aspect that I was interested in. And then eventually when this adjunct position came into play at McAllister College, I finally like had, you know, bucked up and had this conversation with him. And it was actually totally fine. Like we figured out a plan, a strategy of how I'd get like my work done, my research done, in addition to going to the St. Paul campus, we figured out like how we were going to communicate with each other. He told me what his expectations were of me and the expectations that I needed to meet if I was going to do that. And I followed through with it. And so I think that that's a piece of it that can sometimes get lost too, because it can be very scary to have that initial conversation. Because you don't know how it's going to be received. But I would say it is better to have the conversation and have open dialogue and make sure your expectations are aligned than like doing something sort of secretively on the side and then having conflict arise from it. Maurinne Bonnet Yeah. And it can be like even like more, even useful, because some PIs obviously, they are teaching. And I know, when I addressed my PI that I was interested in teaching, and I have a background as a teacher, she was like "Well, there is this lecture in two months, if you want to take it, just I have the slides ready, just do it." And so depending on your PI, that might also be like an opportunity to actually take a lecture from them. So they can dedicate more time with their students and you have this experience of teaching. Kaylee Steen Right, definitely. And that's a to like teaching yeah like one of the classes within a course right um so you're not necessarily the instructor on record but you can still get in front of the classroom and teach. But as I talked about earlier you know I was a part of this developing future biologist course as one of the instructors we also give some of those we present some of the modules on like I did one on regeneration or something like that with a model organism and so that is also teaching, right like I'm teaching a group of undergraduate students. The UMPDA has a program with Macomb Correctional Facility where they teach some classes so there are also these like volunteer opportunities and student orgs and postdoc orgs or postdoc associations where you can get that same type of experience but you're just not like the official instructor in a more formal sense. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Yeah. And really, like, what I want to add to that is that you, that's what you said, Kaylee, it's really the understanding that what matters is the skills you're developing, not necessarily the experience you're getting to developing those skills. So the postdoc short course that you mentioned that the CRLT is doing is a great first starter because you have all that knowledge, you have all that understanding of what goes into teaching in higher education. If you can't teach, talk to your PI because Maurinne said it, you can maybe take one of their courses, but maybe also you can shadow. Even just being in the classroom, seeing how they teach their classes, looking around at the faces of the students: are they engaged, right? And start thinking of like, okay, if I was teaching this class, maybe I would have done this differently. And maybe it's a conversation you can then have with the person you're shadowing of being like "oh, can we debrief a little bit? Like, I had ideas. What do you think about this?" This is the process of using that knowledge and developing those skills, right? And I fully agree, and I really want to emphasize that, that when we talk about teaching skills, it's not just in the classroom. When you mentor someone in the lab, it is teaching, you're teaching them new skills, you're helping them figure out things. This is teaching. When you do outreach events and you go to, I don't know, a third grade classroom to talk about DNA extraction, that is a teaching experience. And so I think it's also very important to reframe the difference between I need to get an experience to show it on my resume versus I need to understand what skills I need to go into that job and how I can develop those skills and what experiences I can have to really showcase that I have the understanding, I used those skills in those ways to then be able to transition into whatever career someone is interested in. Kaylee Steen And I think the other thing just to add to, to what you're saying is when you kind of reframe it in that way, then the next step is like, how do I then help in a resume or cover letter or an interview, connect those dots and articulate and highlight those skills as it relates to the position that I'm applying. And again, as like a plug for our career and professional development team at OGPS, that's one of the things that they can help you do, right? Of like, these are the careers that I'm interested in. How do I reframe or recraft my resume or my cover letter so I'm better articulating and better kind of bringing to the surface these experiences and skills that I've developed. And of course, similarly with the OPA resources, right? So you don't just have to be in the medical school to access this type of support from our staff members. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Yeah. And I think it's really also about knowing the stories you want to tell. Right? It's not just a list of skills, and a list of achievements. It's also like, what can you tell about this? Right? It's like, it's not a pivot because you figured "Oh, I guess I'm gonna do this by default." No, it's like, there's an intention behind it. And so the more aware you are of what you want, what you need, and even like specifically what you don't want, and what you don't want to do, then you can start to really like "Okay, what is the story that I want to tell?" So that when I apply for those jobs, I am able to reframe all my experiences and make it coherent, right for the employer. So they understand that I'm doing this by choice and not because I have to get a job. Well, we're kind of getting to the end of the interview, Kaylee. So I guess that we're gonna really go into our rapid fire question little portion. So really, the only rule is to give the first answer that comes to your mind. So are you ready? Kaylee Steen I think so. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Okay. Soccer or football? Kaylee Steen Soccer. Well, I guess what country are we in? So we're in America. So soccer. Anne-Sophie Bohrer That's what I was going to say. Maurinne and I are French, so soccer and football, same same, because soccer is football, but yeah. What would you like to tell our audience about the job search? Kaylee Steen Be resilient. I think currently right now it is a tough market regardless of what sector. So finding your strategies to be resilient. Anne-Sophie Bohrer What is your go-to stress relief activity? Kaylee Steen Mmm. Watching TV. So generic, but I love a good I love a good series. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Good. What is your favorite cuisine or food? Kaylee Steen Um, I would say, oh, it's a tie between Indian food or Japanese food. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Yeah, very good. What's surprised you most about life after your postdoc? Maurinne Bonnet That there is a life?! Kaylee Steen Yeah, yeah, I think it's like how, to be quite frank, like how enjoyable it can be, you know, when you're doing something that you feel like you really thrive in and you enjoy the day to day and you feel like you're good at it making an impact like it's a very like freeing feeling, if that makes sense. Maurinne Bonnet and Anne-Sophie Bohrer Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Maurinne Bonnet Well, thank you so much, Kaylee, for being here today with us and sharing all those useful and valuable information. So for our audience, please check the OGPS website, the OPA website. Do not hesitate to contact either Anne-Sophie or Kaylee or one of the team members and check their LinkedIn to connect with them with follow-up questions. And do not hesitate to also check our LinkedIn page for more episodes. And with that, I will say, see you later. Anne-Sophie Bohrer Bye, Kaylee. Thank you so much. Kaylee Steen Thank you.

9. mar. 2026 - 37 min