The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant

Can We Build an “Us” Without a “Them”? with John Green

Is it possible to build a community without a 'them'? Author, YouTuber, and podcaster John Green joins Brené Brown and Adam Grant for a wide-ranging conversation on belonging, friendship, and the systems that shape our lives. Together, they explore why sports can create such powerful communities, whether it’s possible to build an “us” without needing a “them,” and why shared projects can help relationships last for decades. John reflects on the challenges of young adulthood, what he learned from working as a hospital chaplain, and why supporting someone in pain sometimes means resisting the urge to fix it. The conversation also moves through why frictionless access, not just awareness, is essential to helping people get the care they need, the role coaches can play in athletes’ well-being, and John’s upcoming novel Hollywood, Ending. Hollywood, Ending - John Green, September, 2026, hollywoodendingbook.com [https://hollywoodendingbook.com/] CrashCourse - Hank Green & John Green, YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/user/crashcourse]  Demonic males: Apes and the origins of human violence - Wrangham & Peterson, 1996, Houghton Mifflin. [https://www.dalepetersonauthor.com/demonic-males.html] The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex - Charles Darwin, 1871/1999, Project Gutenberg [https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2300] Not Like Me = Bad: Infants Prefer Those Who Harm Dissimilar Others - J. Kiley Hamlin, 2013, Psychological Science [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235787148_Not_Like_Me_Bad_Infants_Prefer_Those_Who_Harm_Dissimilar_Others] The Social Self: On Being the Same and Different at the Same Time - Marilynn B. Brewer, 1991, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin [https://gwern.net/doc/psychology/novelty/1991-brewer.pdf] The Away End - Episode 1: John Green & Daniel Alarcon Dissect the 2026 World Cup Draw - The Away End, 2026, YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpClMySbBrY] Roger Bennett – Men in Blazers Media Network [https://www.meninblazers.com/hosts-guests/roger-bennett] Developmental Sequence in Small Groups - Bruce W. Tuckman, 1965, Psychological Bulletin [https://web.mit.edu/curhan/www/docs/Articles/15341_Readings/Group_Dynamics/Tuckman_1965_Developmental_sequence_in_small_groups.pdf] The Places That Scare You: A Guide to Fearlessness in Difficult Times - Pema Chodron, 2002, Shambhala [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BBXJH7W/ref=x_gr_bb_kindle?caller=Goodreads&tag=x_gr_bb_kindle-20] The Framework for Leading With Both Care and Accountability - Brené Brown, 2026, The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant [https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/the-framework-for-leading-with-both/id1730985049?i=1000778009272] "The Fault in Our Stars" Author John Green on Reaching Young Adults and Dealing With Mental Illness - CBS News, 2020, 60 Minutes (CBS News) [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-fault-in-our-stars-author-john-green-reaching-young-adults-and-dealing-with-mental-illness-60-minutes-2020-02-02/] The Social Determinants of Mental Health and Disorder: Evidence, Prevention and Recommendations - James B. Kirkbride, 2024, World Psychiatry [https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10786006/] Single-Session Interventions for Mental Health Problems and Service Engagement: Umbrella Review of Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analyses - Jessica Schleider et al., 2025, Annual Review of Clinical Psychology [https://www.annualreviews.org/content/journals/10.1146/annurev-clinpsy-081423-025033]Administrative Burdens in the Social Safety Net - Herd and Moynihan, 2024, Journal of Economic Perspectives [https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.20231394] Perceived Barriers and Facilitators to Mental Health Help-Seeking in Young People: A Systematic Review - Gulliver, Griffiths & Christensen, 2010, BMC Psychiatry [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1471-244X-10-113] The Inverse Care Law - Julian Tudor Hart, 1971, The Lancet [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014067367192410X] Rebooting Psychotherapy Research and Practice to Reduce the Burden of Mental Illness - Alan E. Kazdin & Stacey L. Blase, 2011, Perspectives on Psychological Science [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26162113/]Are Mental Health Awareness Efforts Contributing to the Rise in Reported Mental Health Problems? A Call to Test the Prevalence Inflation Hypothesis - Lucy Foulkes & Jack L. Andrews, 2023, New Ideas in Psychology  [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0732118X2300003X] How Coaches Can Be a Source of Mental Health Support for Student-Athletes - Madeline Will, 2024, Education Week [https://www.edweek.org/leadership/how-coaches-can-be-an-source-of-mental-health-support-for-student-athletes/2024/03] Meet the Genius Behind America’s Best Roadside Attraction - Show and Tell, Atlas Obscura, YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4ey4Crqids&t=351s] Kate Bowler - Kate Bowler, katebowler.com [https://katebowler.com/] How the Intention to Share Can Undermine Enjoyment: Photo-Taking Goals and Evaluation of Experiences - Alixandra Barasch, 2018, Journal of Consumer Research [https://scispace.com/pdf/how-the-intention-to-share-can-undermine-enjoyment-photo-3n9ktvpbhz.pdf] Optimal Distinctiveness Theory: A Framework for Social Identity, Social Cognition, and Intergroup Relations - Geoffrey J. Leonardelli, 2010, Advances in Experimental Social Psychology [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222696537_Chapter_2_-_Optimal_Distinctiveness_Theory_A_Framework_for_Social_Identity_Social_Cognition_and_Intergroup_Relations] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]

Leading Under Pressure with Rebecca Lowe

What does it take to stay calm when millions are watching? Rebecca Lowe, the host of NBC’s Premier League coverage and Fox’s record-breaking 2026 World Cup broadcast, joins Brené Brown and Adam Grant to explore why preparation—not confidence—is her real superpower; the weight of being one of the only women in the room; and what it really means to lead when things get chaotic. Together, they unpack the difference between presence and preparedness, the “permission slip” moment that defines great leadership, and why the loudest person in the room isn’t always the one in charge. Along the way, Rebecca reflects on breaking barriers in a male-dominated industry, how she earns trust from personalities like Zlatan Ibrahimović, and the teachable habit she uses to keep her co-hosts focused on live TV.  The Return of Coach Lasso – NBC Sports, 2014, YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRqypM7jb5Y] Nessun Dorma, Rome 1990 – Luciano Pavarotti, 1990, YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve9QtTeo8IM] Double Standards for Competence – Martha Foschi, 2000, Annual Review of Sociology [https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev.soc.26.1.21] "Executive Presence" Is Overrated – Adam Grant & Brené Brown, 2025, Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPTsFxHkfJ9/] Entrepreneur Passion and Preparedness in Business Plan Presentations – Xiao-Ping Chen, 2009, Academy of Management Journal [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228951732_Entrepreneur_Passion_And_Preparedness_In_Business_Plan_Presentations_A_Persuasion_Analysis_Of_Venture_Capitalists'_Funding_Decisions] Beyond Nine to Five – Lieke ten Brummelhuis, 2017, Academy of Management Discoveries [https://faculty.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/TenBrummelhuisRothbardUhrich2017AMD.pdf] Building atomic habits with James Clear –  Adam Grant (Host), July 21, 2023, ReThinking with Adam Grant [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7kFkagIu1Q] Can Your Employees Really Speak Freely? – James Detert, 2016, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2016/01/can-your-employees-really-speak-freely] Trailblazing Motivation and Marginalized Group Members – Karren Knowlton, 2025, Organization Science [https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/10.1287/orsc.2021.15624] Bullet Time Effect in "Sherlock" the BBC TV Series – Moffat & Gattiss, January 14,  2014, BBC/YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyoX-8hl10E] Conversational Style – Deborah Tannen, 2005, Oxford University Press [https://www.deborahtannen.com/conversational-style] Who Won't Shut Up in Meetings? – Adam Grant, 2021, The Washington Post [https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/02/18/men-interrupt-women-tokyo-olympics/] Dare to Lead read-along workbook (Permission Slips) – Brené Brown, 2021, Brené Brown, LLC [https://brenebrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/DTL-Read-Along-Workbook_092221.pdf] Tell Me What I Did Wrong – Stacey Finkelstein, 2012, Journal of Consumer Research [https://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/sf2559/files/2011/08/FF_JCR_Feedback.pdf] Emotional Contagion – Elaine Hatfield, 1993, Current Directions in Psychological Science [https://www.elainehatfield.com/uploads/3/2/2/5/3225640/50._hatfield_cacioppo__rapson_1993.pdf] Huge If True – Cleo Abram, YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@CleoAbram] Range – David Epstein, 2019, Riverhead Books [https://davidepstein.com/range/] The science of performing under pressure with Sian Beilock – Adam Grant (Host), March 28, 2023, ReThinking with Adam Grant (“Twisties” discussion at 8:50)  [https://youtu.be/wtNODAdT4uQ?t=529] Hidden Potential – Adam Grant, 2023, Viking [https://adamgrant.net/book/hidden-potential/] What Being Sober Has Meant to Me – Brené Brown, 2019, brenebrown.com [https://brenebrown.com/blog/2019/05/31/what-being-sober-has-meant-to-me/] The Gifts of Imperfection – Brené Brown, 2010, Hazelden Publishing [https://brenebrown.com/art/tgoi-perfectionism/] Positive Conceptions of Perfectionism – Joachim Stoeber, 2006, Personality and Social Psychology Review [https://doi.org/10.1207/s15327957pspr1004_2] The Queen Bee Phenomenon – Belle Derks, 2016, The Leadership Quarterly [https://www.academia.edu/24319360/The_Queen_Bee_Phenomenon_Why_women_leaders_distance_themselves_from_junior_women] Some Effects of Proportions on Group Life: Skewed Sex Ratios and Responses to Token Women – Rosabeth Moss Kanter, 1977, American Journal of Sociology [https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/226425] Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex – Kimberlé Crenshaw, 1989, University of Chicago Legal Forum [https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/uclf/vol1989/iss1/8/] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]

Why Sports Matter Even When the Game Doesn’t with Roger Bennett

Why do sports make us cry, unite strangers, and create memories that last a lifetime? In this episode, Men in Blazers founder and CEO Roger Bennett joins Brené Brown and Adam Grant fresh off a 39-day World Cup marathon to explore what the tournament revealed about identity, belonging, and the power of collective effervescence. Together, they unpack the difference between hero players and hero teams, what it means to be a true fan, the political complexities surrounding the World Cup, and how sports create shared experiences that shape our lives. Along the way, Roger shares stories from the road, reflects on the strange grief of “World Cup withdrawal,” and revisits some of the tournament’s most memorable stories, including Erling Haaland’s taxidermy shop detour, the Cape Verde goalkeeper who became a global icon overnight, the controversial red card reversal, and more. Roger Bennett – Men in Blazers Media Network [https://www.meninblazers.com/hosts-guests/roger-bennett] The Englishman Who Became America’s No. 1 Soccer Fan – David Waldstein, July 16, 2026, The New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/16/nyregion/roger-bennett-men-in-blazers-world-cup-usa.html] Men in Blazers’ Roger Bennett Eats Two Dinners During the World Cup “Chicken-tinga burros are the Messi of burros.” –  Ben Widdicombe, July 17, 2026, New York Magazine  [https://www.grubstreet.com/article/roger-bennett-world-cup-grub-street-diet.html] Brené Brown on Surrounding Yourself With People Who Take Pleasure in Your Joy (Schadenfreude vs. Freudenfreude) – Ellen DeGeneres, April 1, 2022, TheEllenShow [https://youtu.be/8PKMjBC56l4?t=516] Premier League to bring all 20 clubs to U.S. in activation after 2026 World Cup – Victoria Hernandez, July 23, 2026, Yahoo Sports [https://sports.yahoo.com/articles/premier-league-bring-20-clubs-235217828.html] The Kansas City fanwalk had us all like… – OnsOranje, Royal Dutch Football Association [https://www.instagram.com/reels/DaBZz-QsT-Q/] The Numbers Game: Why Everything You Know About Football Is Wrong – Anderson & Sally, 2013, Penguin  [https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-numbers-game-why-everything-you-know-about-soccer-is-wrong-chris-anderson/c34d121dafa9037c] Men in Blazers - “The Women’s Game” and “Vamos” (Platform links) – The Men in Blazers Media Network [https://www.meninblazers.com/] New Volume Edited by Phil Smith and Sébastien Tutenges: Collective Effervescence – 2026, Yale Center for Cultural Sociology [https://ccs.yale.edu/posts/2026-02-26-new-volume-edited-by-phil-smith-and-sebastien-tutenges-collective-effervescence] ROG’s Heartbreaking Farewell and Stunning Comeback at Goodison Park (Everton) – Roger Bennett, 2026, YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls5ahfiP6ao] Brené Brown: The Power of Vulnerability & Joy in Liverpool! – Roger Bennett, April, 2025, Men in Blazers (Interview) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJVYPtyU8g8] Anfield sings 'You'll Never Walk Alone' to kick off new season – NBC Sports, August 15, 2025, YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMAV1JM104c] We Are the World (Cup): A Personal History of the World's Greatest Sporting Event – Roger Bennett, 2026, HarperCollins [https://bookshop.org/p/books/we-are-the-world-cup-a-personal-history-of-the-world-s-greatest-sporting-event-roger-bennett/481847f7dc647b39] Who Belongs? Football and the Reinvention of the Modern Nation – Josh Wilson, 2026, TIME [https://africa.time.com/africa/who-belongs/] The definition of a true fan – Adam Grant, Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/p/DadOfeCR_yU/] Folarin Balogun's lifted suspension – Roger Bennett, CBS Morning News, Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/reels/Dac_DV0ur--/] This is so awkward: Modern puberty explained – Cara Natterson & Vanessa Kroll Bennett, 2023, Rodale Books [https://vanessakrollbennett.com/] Human challenges in polar and space environments – Sandal et al., 2006, Springer [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226560774_Human_challenges_in_polar_and_space_environments] Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House [https://brenebrown.com/book/strong-ground/] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]

The Framework for Leading With Both Care and Accountability

This episode is a master class in coaching as Aiko Bethea, one of the most respected senior leadership coaches in the country, takes Brené through a current leadership conflict in real time, showing just how hard it is to slow down and lead from your values instead of your urgency. The coaching session is underpinned by Aiko's new "Anchored, Aligned, and Accountable" framework that focuses on why self-leadership is so critical in today's complex operating environment. Together, they dig into the difference between assuming good intent and believing someone is doing the best they can, and why that distinction changes what accountability actually looks like in practice. Aiko also introduces and models the powerful coaching practice of "three levels of listening" and how it's central to developing a coaching mindset. Aiko Bethea — Aiko Bethea, aikobethea.com [https://www.aikobethea.com/] Dare to Lead Hub — Brené Brown, brenebrown.com [https://brenebrown.com/hubs/dare-to-lead/] Audre Lorde — Mariana Brandman, 2021, National Women's History Museum [https://www.womenshistory.org/education-resources/biographies/audre-lorde] bell hooks — Asami Robledo-Allen Yamamoto, 2025, National Women's History Museum [https://www.womenshistory.org/education-resources/biographies/bell-hooks] RARE Coaching | Aiko Bethea (@rare_coach) — Aiko Bethea, n.d., Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/rare_coach/] Psychological Safety and Learning Behavior in Work Teams — Amy Edmondson, 1999, Administrative Science Quarterly [https://web.mit.edu/curhan/www/docs/Articles/15341_Readings/Group_Performance/Edmondson%20Psychological%20safety.pdf] This Is Our Reminder of What Courageous Leadership Looks Like — Brené Brown, 2026, LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brenebrown_this-is-our-reminder-of-what-courageous-leadership-share-7450010946326126593-PdTo/] One of the Greatest Joys of My Career Has Been… — Brené Brown, 2026, LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brenebrown_one-of-the-greatest-joys-of-my-career-has-share-7445201481634529281-yE3n/] Futurist Amy Webb on What's Coming (and What's Here) — Brené Brown, 2024, Dare to Lead podcast [https://brenebrown.com/podcast/whats-coming-and-whats-here/] Brené with Aiko Bethea on Inclusivity at Work: The Heart of Hard Conversations — Brené Brown, 2020, Dare to Lead podcast [https://brenebrown.com/podcast/brene-with-aiko-bethea-on-inclusivity-at-work-the-heart-of-hard-conversations/] Rising Strong — Brené Brown, 2015, Random House [https://brenebrown.com/book/rising-strong/] Feeling Powerless at Work? Here's Where Your Agency Still Lives — Jessi Hempel, 2026, Hello Monday with Jessi Hempel [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/feeling-powerless-at-work-heres-where-your-agency-still/id1453893304?i=1000765995269] Without Accountability, Just Throw It All Away — Aiko Bethea, 2023, LinkedIn (Street Lights newsletter) [https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/without-accountability-just-throw-all-away-aiko/] Post on Learning and Development (#learninganddevelopment) — Aiko Bethea, 2026, LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/aikobethea_learninganddevelopment-ugcPost-7451367061412483072-ALxJ/] Dare to Lead — Brené Brown, 2018, Random House [https://brenebrown.com/book/dare-to-lead/] Stop Outsourcing Your Judgment: Brené Brown in Conversation with Leadership Coach Aiko Bethea — Brené Brown, 2026, Fast Company [https://www.fastcompany.com/91529459/stop-outsourcing-your-judgement-brene-brown] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]

You Don't Get an A for Effort

Previously released on Dare to Lead, this is part of a special six-part series with Adam Grant on Brené's book, Strong Ground. Brené and Adam unpack the difference between effort and excellence, why coaching matters more than judgment, and how unclear priorities can quietly derail even the hardest-working teams. From there the conversation moves further into prioritization, a consequential 2x2 decision-making framework, and how leaders inadvertently signal the wrong priorities through their emotional reactions. Circling back to effort, they also discuss why the first question leaders should ask when results fall short is whether they set their team up for success in the first place. Plus, Brené has a real-time realization that her own team may not be aligned on what's actually consequential. Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know – Adam Grant, 2021, Viking [https://adamgrant.net/book/think-again/] Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit – Brené Brown, 2025, Random House [https://brenebrown.com/book/strong-ground/] No, You Don't Get an A for Effort – Adam Grant, 2024, The New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/26/opinion/school-grades-a-quantity-quality.html] Mindset: The New Psychology of Success – Carol Dweck, 2006, Random House [https://bookshop.org/p/books/mindset-the-new-psychology-of-success-carol-s-dweck/aaaba3bad0daa3a3?ean=9780345472328] Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation and Performance – Mueller & Dweck, 1998, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology [https://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/courses/3615/Readings/Mueller_Dweck.pdf?] What Having a “Growth Mindset” Actually Means – Carol Dweck, 2016, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2016/01/what-having-a-growth-mindset-actually-means] “Both/And” Leadership – Wendy Smith, 2016, Harvard Business Review [https://hbr.org/2016/05/both-and-leadership] Genius of the AND – Jim Collins, n.d., JimCollins.com [https://www.jimcollins.com/concepts/genius-of-the-and.html] Reversible and Irreversible Decisions – Shane Parrish, n.d., Farnam Street [https://fs.blog/reversible-irreversible-decisions/] The Highly Sensitive Person: How to Thrive When the World Overwhelms You – Elaine Aron, 1996, Broadway Books [https://hsperson.com/] Sensory-Processing Sensitivity and Its Relation to Introversion and Emotionality – Elaine Aron, 1997, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13971997_Sensory-Processing_Sensitivity_and_Its_Relation_to_Introversion_and_Emotionality] Above/Below the Line Practice – Brené Brown, 2025, BrenéBrown.com [https://brenebrown.com/resources/above-below-the-line/] Fairy Tales and Script Drama Analysis – Stephen Karpman, 1968, Transactional Analysis Bulletin [https://karpmandramatriangle.com/pdf/DramaTriangle.pdf] (Origin paper for the villain/rescuer/victim model of conflict) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices [https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices]