In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues; Insights For Us All

Shame Is Almost Always an Attachment Wound

In this heartfelt episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with longtime colleague and dear friend Deirdre Fay, a pioneering voice in somatic and attachment-based trauma treatment. Reflecting on nearly three decades of shared work, they revisit the early days of trauma therapy—when integrating the body, creativity, and relational healing into psychotherapy was still considered radical. Together, Janina and Deirdre explore how healing from trauma requires more than revisiting painful memories. They discuss the importance of building safety first, helping clients develop the capacity to “notice” rather than become overwhelmed by their internal experiences, and using the body as a gateway to compassion and connection. Their conversation touches on the power of externalization, the role of creativity in trauma treatment, and how shame often emerges not as a personal flaw but as an attachment wound. This episode offers a rich and deeply human reflection on how trauma treatment has evolved—and how healing happens through tiny steps, community, and learning to turn toward what nourishes us. * Safety is the foundation of trauma healing * Healing involves both body and mind * “Notice you noticing” is a powerful therapeutic skill * Shame is often an attachment wound * Community reduces isolation and shame Deirdre Fay believes that a good life is not an accident, but the result of consistently choosing compassion, connection, and inner growth. She invites people to experience life itself as a kind of modern-day Bodhisattva training — learning to listen deeply to the inner wisdom that can guide us through life’s challenges and transitions. Her work resonates with those who appear successful on the surface yet privately struggle with shame, anxiety, depression, emotional distress, or repetitive relationship patterns. Through a transformational methodology developed over more than forty years of clinical practice and teaching, Deirdre offers practical pathways toward building what she calls a Solid, Steady, Secure Self. Rooted in trauma therapy, attachment theory, yoga, and contemporary neuroscience, Deirdre integrates modern therapeutic approaches with wisdom traditions to help people transform suffering into a more fulfilling life. More recently, she has been exploring the use of creative arts as a way of externalizing inner experience and helping people find words for what has previously remained unspoken. Her work has been described as “a radically positive approach to life.” https://www.dfay.com/ Attachment-Based Yoga & Meditation for Trauma Recovery: Simple, Safe, and Effective Practices for Therapy https://www.amazon.com/Attachment-Based-Yoga-Meditation-Trauma-Recovery/dp/0393709906 [https://www.amazon.com/Attachment-Based-Yoga-Meditation-Trauma-Recovery/dp/0393709906]

You Can See the Proof That You're Loved and Still Not Feel It

In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with clinical psychologist Paul Gilbert, the founder of Compassion-Focused Therapy, for a rich and reflective dialogue on shame, compassion, and the evolutionary roots of suffering. Drawing on over four decades of clinical work and research, Gilbert explores how shame is not simply a personal failing but a deeply embedded, biologically shaped experience tied to our need for social belonging. Together, Janina and Paul examine how threat-based systems dominate in trauma survivors, and why cultivating compassion can be both profoundly challenging and profoundly healing. This conversation weaves together science, clinical insight, and personal reflection, illuminating how compassion can transform our relationship to ourselves and others. For therapists and curious listeners, this episode offers a powerful reframe: healing is not about eliminating pain, but about changing how we meet it. * Shame is evolutionarily wired, not a personal defect * The brain is shaped for survival, not happiness * Compassion-Focused Therapy offers a pathway to safety * Healing happens when clients can safely experience something different * Clinicians play a crucial role in embodying and transmitting compassion, helping clients internalize it over time. * Moving away from blame and toward curiosity is a foundational step in trauma recovery. Paul Gilbert Bio Paul Gilbert, FBPsS, PhD, OBE is Professor of Clinical Psychology at the University of Derby and honorary visiting Prof at the University of Queensland. Until his retirement from the NHS in 2016 he was Consultant Clinical Psychologist for over 40 years. He has researched evolutionary approaches to psychopathology with a special focus on mood, shame and self-criticism in various mental health difficulties for which Compassion Focused Therapy was developed. He was made a Fellow of the British Psychological Society in 1993, president of the BABCP 2002-2004, and was a member of the first British Governments’ NICE guidelines for depression. He has written/edited 23 books and over 300 papers and book chapters. In 2006 he established the Compassionate Mind Foundation as an international charity with the mission statement: To promote wellbeing through the scientific understanding and application of compassion (www.compassionatemind.co.uk). There are now a number of sister foundations in other countries. He was awarded an OBE by the Queen in March 2011 for services to mental health. He established and is the Director of the Centre for Compassion Research and Training at Derby University UK. His latest book is a major edited book with Prof G Simos (2022) Compassion: Clinical practice and Applications (Routledge). www.compassionatemind.co.uk [http://www.compassionatemind.co.uk/] www.profpaulgilbert.co.uk [http://www.profpaulgilbert.co.uk/]       Key papers and links to further publications Compassion: From Its Evolution to a Psychotherapy [https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.586161/full] Creating a Compassionate World: Addressing the Conflicts Between Sharing and Caring Versus Controlling and Holding Evolved Strategies [https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.582090/full] Google Scholar Profile [https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?hl=en&user=OzD3PaoAAAAJ&pagesize=100&view_op=list_works&sortby=pubdate]   For recent videos series: Creating Compassionate World Interview Series [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL15t-W6V_jQjYZa9j7sRywtbxNb7TMpqD]   Follow us on: Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/CompMindFound] l Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/compassionatemind_foundation/] l LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-compassionate-mind-foundation/] View our training workshop [https://www.compassionatemind.co.uk/training#workshop-section] programme and BPS Approved Diploma [https://www.compassionatemind.co.uk/compassion-focused-therapy-diploma] Did you know? Results of a meta-analysis suggest CFT is effective in reducing symptoms of depression, anxiety and self-criticism.  Access the paper for free [https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2024-33588-001.html].

Trauma Symptoms Aren't Broken. They're Logical.

In this illuminating conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with Bruce Ecker, co-developer of Coherence Therapy and co-author of Unlocking the Emotional Brain, to explore the powerful role of implicit memory in shaping trauma and human behavior. Together, they challenge the long-standing focus on traumatic events themselves, shifting attention instead to what was learned from those experiences—and how those learnings continue to live on in the body and nervous system. This episode offers a nuanced, practice-informed look at how therapists can access and shift implicit emotional learning, while also inviting listeners to reconsider how patterns, symptoms, and suffering may reflect meaningful adaptations rather than pathology. A must-listen for clinicians and anyone interested in the deeper mechanisms of healing. * Trauma lives on through implicit emotional learnings, not just memories of events. * Implicit memory drives present-day experience. * Cognitive understanding has a limited impact on subcortical, implicit patterns. * Lasting change happens when lived experiences directly contradict implicit beliefs. * Effective therapy works gradually, allowing clients to access implicit material without overwhelm. * Current experiences provide an accessible entry point into implicit memory. * Repetitive behaviors and emotional responses reflect stored learning, even without explicit recall. * Letting go of long-held implicit beliefs may bring relief, but also mourning for the life shaped by them. Bio: Bruce Ecker, MA, LMFT, is co-originator of Coherence Therapy, co-founder and co-director of the Coherence Psychology Institute, and coauthor of Unlocking the Emotional Brain: Memory Reconsolidation and the Psychotherapy of Transformational Change; the Coherence Therapy Practice Manual & Training Guide; and two other books and numerous peer-reviewed journal articles. Since 2006 he has driven the clinical field's understanding of memory reconsolidation as the core process of transformational therapeutic change, and has developed the application of this brain research breakthrough for major advancements in therapeutic effectiveness and psychotherapy unification. He has taught in clinical graduate programs, is a frequent presenter at conferences and workshops internationally, co-leads the Institute’s annual training intensive, leads several ongoing case consultation groups, and leads the Institute's team of research associates.  Show Notes: https://www.coherencetherapy.org/ [https://www.coherencetherapy.org/] Bruce’s peer-reviewed journal articles provide rigorous accounts of matters he mentions in this conversation with Janina, for example: Ecker B. A proposal for the unification of psychotherapeutic action understood as memory modification processes. Journal of Psychotherapy Integration, 34, 291–314. https://doi.org/10.1037/int0000330 [http://doi.org/10.1037/int0000330]  Download>> [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/379760981_A_proposal_for_the_unification_of_psychotherapeutic_action_understood_as_memory_modification_processes] Ecker, B., & Vaz, A. (2022). Memory reconsolidation and the crisis of mechanism in psychotherapy. New Ideas in Psychology, 66, 100945, 1–11.    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.newideapsych.2022.100945 [https://doi.org/10.1016/j.newideapsych.2022.100945] Download>> [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0732118X22000150?via=ihub] Ecker, B., & Bridges, S. K. (2020). How the science of memory reconsolidation advances the effectiveness and unification of psychotherapy. Clinical Social Work Journal, 48(3), 287–300. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10615-020-00754-z [https://doi.org/10.1007/s10615-020-00754-z]  Download>> [https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10615-020-00754-z.pdf] Key Takeaways:

What Happens When the Therapist Carries the Same Trauma as the Client?

In this deeply personal and illuminating conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with therapist, researcher, and founder of Black Therapists Rock, Deran Young, to explore the profound ways trauma, culture, and lived experience shape the nervous system—and the healing journey. Deran shares her story of growing up in survival mode, serving in the military, and later discovering that she had been living on adrenaline for most of her life. Together, she and Janina reflect on the difference between being safe and feeling safe, the impact of racial and intergenerational trauma, and the ways the body carries survival patterns long after danger has passed. Their conversation explores Internal Family Systems, the importance of learning to recognize signs of safety, the role of community in healing, and how psychedelic-assisted therapy helped Deran experience embodiment for the first time. Throughout the episode, they return to a powerful theme: that healing is not about productivity or performance, but about presence—learning to live in a body that no longer has to survive all the time. This is a conversation about trauma, resilience, legacy burdens, and what it means to come home to yourself. * The difference between being safe and feeling safe * How many people live in chronic survival mode without realizing it * The impact of racial trauma, intergenerational trauma, and systemic stress on the nervous system * Why trauma symptoms are biological, not a choice * The concept of “the biology of your biography” * Learning to look for signs of safety rather than forcing calm * The role of IFS, embodiment, and psychedelic-assisted therapy in healing trauma * Why presence—not productivity—is the real measure of a meaningful life https://blacktherapistsrock.com/events/ [https://blacktherapistsrock.com/events/] Show Notes: Key Themes / Takeaways Co-Authored this Book with Brene Brown - You are Your Best Thing: Vulnerability, Shame Resilience, and the Black Experience [https://www.amazon.com/You-Your-Best-Thing-Vulnerability/dp/0593243625]

What If the Most Important Thing a Therapist Can Do Is Nothing?

In this thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation, Janina Fisher, PhD, sits down with David Grand, developer of Brainspotting, to explore how healing happens when therapists learn to trust the client’s nervous system rather than trying to direct it. Together, they reflect on the origins of Brainspotting, the role of observation and curiosity in clinical work, and the importance of what Grand calls the “dual attunement frame”—the integration of relational attunement with neurobiological attunement. David shares the story of how Brainspotting emerged from a moment of careful observation while working with a performance block in an athlete, and how that moment led to a therapy model grounded in focused mindfulness, somatic processing, and deep respect for the client’s internal healing process. Throughout the conversation, Janina and David explore uncertainty as an essential part of therapy, the limitations of therapist-driven models, and the power of following the client’s natural processing rather than trying to lead it. This episode is a rich conversation about humility in clinical work, the intelligence of the nervous system, and the ways trauma therapy continues to evolve as clinicians learn to listen more deeply—to the body, the brain, and the therapeutic relationship. * Brainspotting developed through careful observation of clients’ natural processing rather than from a predefined theory. * The “dual attunement frame” emphasizes that the therapeutic relationship comes first, followed by neurobiological processing. * In the face of the nervous system’s complexity, therapists must work with curiosity and humility rather than certainty. * Healing happens by trusting the client’s internal process and allowing the nervous system to lead. * Somatic and subcortical processing may be the deepest form of trauma healing—even when it doesn’t involve conscious insight.