The Talk Show With John Gruber

Special guest Louie Mantia joins the show to talk about Liquid Glass, the various OS 26 updates, and the worrisome state of Apple’s UI design overall. Also: sandwiches. Sponsored by: * Quip [https://bzgapps.com/quip]: A supercharged clipboard manager and text expander for Mac, iPhone, and iPad. * Notion [https://notion.com/talkshow]: The best AI tool for work, with your notes, docs, and projects in one space. * Squarespace [https://squarespace.com/talkshow]: Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code talkshow. Transcripts: Unofficial but surprisingly good [http://podsearch.david-smith.org/shows/11]. Links: * Louie’s personal website [https://lmnt.me/], chock full of downloadable wallpapers, icons, and more. * Louie, on Alan Dye: “A Responsibility to the Industry [https://lmnt.me/blog/a-responsibility-to-the-industry.html]”. * Louie on Mastodon [https://pdx.social/@louie]. * Parakeet [https://parakeet.co/], Louie’s design partnership with Luka Grafera. * Steve Jobs introducing the new icon for iTunes that Louie made [https://daringfireball.net/thetalkshow/428/sj-itunes-icon.jpeg] (the best iTunes icon ever). * Daring Fireball: “Sorry, MacOS Tahoe Beta 2 Still Does the Finder Icon Dirty [https://daringfireball.net/linked/2025/06/24/sorry-macos-tahoe-b2-finder-icon]” (with links, at the bottom, to Louie’s mockup of how Liquid Glass versions of the Finder icon should look). * My polls on light/dark mode preferences on your phone: Mastodon [https://mastodon.social/@gruber/114932041394942073] and Threads [https://www.threads.com/@gruber/post/DMqPCUkuGVN]. * NeXTStep’s GUI and icons [https://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/openstep42], including the realistic “folders” and super-detailed “home” with shrubbery and a tree in front of the house (and another collection just of NeXTStep’s icons [https://itoda.com/next/openstep/icons/index-en.html]). * Redweld [http://redweld.com/expanding-files/] — Makers of the iconic (no pun intended) expandable files that NeXT’s folder icons were based on. * The wonderfully skeuomorphic original interfaces for Apple’s iPhone Voice Memos [https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/the-iphone-book/9780133016529/ch07sec1lev32.html] and Podcasts [https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/iphone/podcasts-for-iphone-in-2012] apps. * A July 1986 draft of the original Human Interface Guidelines [https://daringfireball.net/thetalkshow/428/HumanInterfaceGuidelines-1986.pdf] (PDF) from Apple, including a brief section on “Perceived Stability” (followed by a section on “See-and-Point versus Remember-and-Type”). This episode of The Talk Show was edited by Caleb Sexton.

Jason Snell returns to the show to talk about the early PC platform rivalries of the 1980s, iOS 26 leaks (and Apple suing YouTuber Jon Prosser), the various Apple OS 26 public betas and the state of Liquid Glass, and more. (Where by “more” I mean a little baseball and keyboard nerdery.) Sponsored by: * Factor [https://factormeals.com/talkshow50off]: Healthy eating, made easy. Get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. * Sentry [https://sentry.io/signup/?utm_source=twist&utm_medium=paid-community&utm_campaign=seer-fy26q2-evergreen&utm_content=recording-twist-tryfree]: The real-time error monitoring and tracing platform that helps dev teams and tech companies build better, more reliable products. Use code talkshow for 3 months free and 150,000 errors. * Squarespace [https://squarespace.com/talkshow]: Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code talkshow. Transcripts: Unofficial but surprisingly good [http://podsearch.david-smith.org/shows/11]. Links: * The MLB All-Star Game "swing-off" [https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/45750644/mlb-all-star-game-2025-swing-home-run-kyle-schwarber]. * NuPhy Kick75 mechanical Bluetooth keyboard [https://nuphy.com/collections/keyboards/products/nuphy-kick75-page]. * The weird key layout of the Apple Keyboard (ADB) [https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/ifxrok/apple_m0116_vintage_adb_mechanical_keyboard_with/]. * Tinkerboy’s ADB-to-USB adapter [https://www.tinkerboy.xyz/product/tinkerboy-adb-to-usb-keyboard-mouse-converter/]. (Email Tinkerboy if you’re interested — he has a USB-C adapter too, not listed on the website.) * Jason’s keyboard [https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q1] and the switches [https://www.thockking.com/products/c3-tkc-equalz-kiwi-tactile-67-switches] inside. * John on Myke Hurley’s “The State of the Workflow” [https://www.theenthusiast.net/john-gruber-state-of-the-workflow/]. * Apple sues Jon Prosser over Liquid Glass leaks [https://www.macrumors.com/2025/07/17/apple-sues-jon-prosser-ios-26-leaks/]. * Un-redacting the redacted names in the lawsuit [https://mastodon.social/@gruber/114887950390338430]. * Wikipedia on Think Secret and "Nick DePlume" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Secret], its pseudonymous author. See also: Vintage DF coverage of Think Secret [https://daringfireball.net/search/think+secret]. * Ray Gun magazine and designer David Carson [https://www.davidcarsondesign.com/t/tag/raygun/]. This episode of The Talk Show was edited by Caleb Sexton.

Special guest David Smith returns to the show for a developer's perspective look at WWDC 2025. Sponsored by: * TRMNL [https://usetrmnl.com/go/gruber]: A hackable e-ink display. Save $15 with code GRUBER. * Squarespace [https://squarespace.com/talkshow]: Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code talkshow. Transcripts: Unofficial but surprisingly good [http://podsearch.david-smith.org/shows/11]. Links: * Michael Flarup's mockup for a MacOS 26 Finder icon [https://x.com/flarup/status/1932798949749936200] * Louie Mantia's (even better) mockup for a MacOS 26 Finder icon [https://pdx.social/@louie/114742479098781460] * Benedict Evans: “The Best Is the Last [https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2016/4/20/the-best-is-the-last]” * Podsearch [https://podsearch.david-smith.org] * Under the Radar [https://www.relay.fm/radar] * David-Smith.org [https://david-smith.org/] * Widgetsmith [https://apps.apple.com/us/app/widgetsmith/id1523682319] * Pedometer++ [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pedometer++/id712286167] * Sleep++ [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sleep++/id1038440371] * Widgetsmith [https://apps.apple.com/us/app/widgetsmith/id1523682319] * Hands-On: How Apple’s New Speech APIs Outpace Whisper for Lightning-Fast Transcription [https://www.macstories.net/stories/hands-on-how-apples-new-speech-apis-outpace-whisper-for-lightning-fast-transcription/] * Tim Cook Reveals Apple’s Vision for Movies and TV [https://variety.com/2025/film/news/f1-apple-movie-strategy-tim-cook-lewis-hamilton-1236424270/] * Musk’s xAI Burns Through $1 Billion a Month as Costs Pile Up [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-17/musk-s-xai-burning-through-1-billion-a-month-as-costs-pile-up] This episode of The Talk Show was edited by Caleb Sexton.

Special guest David Smith returns to the show for a developer's perspective look at WWDC 2025. Sponsored by: * TRMNL [https://usetrmnl.com/go/gruber]: A hackable e-ink display. Save $15 with code GRUBER. * Squarespace [https://squarespace.com/talkshow]: Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code talkshow. Transcripts: Unofficial but surprisingly good [http://podsearch.david-smith.org/shows/11]. Links: * Michael Flarup's mockup for a MacOS 26 Finder icon [https://x.com/flarup/status/1932798949749936200] * Louie Mantia's (even better) mockup for a MacOS 26 Finder icon [https://pdx.social/@louie/114742479098781460] * Benedict Evans: “The Best Is the Last [https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2016/4/20/the-best-is-the-last]” * Podsearch [https://podsearch.david-smith.org] * Under the Radar [https://www.relay.fm/radar] * David-Smith.org [https://david-smith.org/] * Widgetsmith [https://apps.apple.com/us/app/widgetsmith/id1523682319] * Pedometer++ [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pedometer++/id712286167] * Sleep++ [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sleep++/id1038440371] * Widgetsmith [https://apps.apple.com/us/app/widgetsmith/id1523682319] * Hands-On: How Apple’s New Speech APIs Outpace Whisper for Lightning-Fast Transcription [https://www.macstories.net/stories/hands-on-how-apples-new-speech-apis-outpace-whisper-for-lightning-fast-transcription/] * Tim Cook Reveals Apple’s Vision for Movies and TV [https://variety.com/2025/film/news/f1-apple-movie-strategy-tim-cook-lewis-hamilton-1236424270/] * Musk’s xAI Burns Through $1 Billion a Month as Costs Pile Up [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-06-17/musk-s-xai-burning-through-1-billion-a-month-as-costs-pile-up] This episode of The Talk Show was edited by Caleb Sexton.

Chance Miller returns to the show to discuss the news and announcements from WWDC 2025. Sponsored by: * Factor [https://factormeals.com/talkshow50off]: Healthy eating, made easy. Get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box with code talkshow50off. * Squarespace [https://squarespace.com/talkshow]: Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code talkshow. * BetterHelp [https://betterhelp.com/talkshow]: Give online therapy a try at BetterHelp and get on your way to being your best self. Transcripts: Unofficial but surprisingly good [http://podsearch.david-smith.org/shows/11]. Links: * Daring Fireball: “One Week Out, Some Brief Thoughts and Observations on WWDC 2025” [https://daringfireball.net/2025/06/some_brief_thoughts_and_observations_on_wwdc_2025]. * WatchOS 26 finally supports once-per-second ticking seconds hands on more watch faces on Series 10 [https://9to5mac.com/2025/06/09/watchos-26-more-apple-watch-faces-using-series-10s-upgraded-display/]. * The ongoing dispute between Apple and Massimo over the blood oxygen sensors in recent Apple Watch models [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Watch_health_monitoring_patent_dispute]. * May 2024: “Apple Apologizes for Controversial iPad Pro Ad, Scraps Plans for TV Campaign [https://9to5mac.com/2024/05/09/ipad-pro-crush-ad-apology/]”. * August 2024: “Apple Pulls Latest Ad After Criticism Over Depiction of Thailand [https://www.macrumors.com/2024/08/02/apple-pulls-latest-underdogs-ad/]”. This episode of The Talk Show was edited by Caleb Sexton.