How To Be Second with Nathan Young and Dave Hartman

Dan Reiland on Four Decades of XP Ministry

Phil and Tyler sit down with longtime executive pastor, author, coach, and leadership mentor Dan Reiland. Dan reflects on his ministry journey, beginning as John Maxwell’s second intern and eventually becoming one of the pioneering executive pastors in the modern church movement. He shares stories from his years at Skyline Church, the Enjoy ministry, and his 25-year tenure at 12Stone Church. The conversation explores how the executive pastor role has evolved over the decades, the challenges and opportunities of church growth, and the importance of balancing organizational leadership with spiritual leadership. Dan offers a behind-the-scenes look at 12Stone’s decision to launch five campuses in a single Sunday, including lessons learned from rapid growth and the importance of strong systems. Dan also discusses the calling and partnership between senior pastors and executive pastors, recounting the remarkable story of how God led him and Kevin Myers into ministry together. The conversation turns to leadership development, mentoring, generational learning, and the growing challenge of helping leaders interpret culture in a rapidly changing world. Dan’s strongest leadership conviction after four decades in ministry is:prayer is not preparation for the work—it is the work.  Mentioned Resources * 🗣️Follow Dan [https://www.instagram.com/timastevens]  * 💻Dan’s Website [https://danreiland.com/]  * 📕Shoulder to Shoulder: Strengthening the Church by Supporting Your Pastor [https://a.co/d/0hRoOL76] by Dan Reiland * 📕Amplified Leadership: Five Practices to Establish Influence, Build People, and Impact Others [https://a.co/d/04w4OwTo] by Dan Reiland * ⛪️12Stone Church [https://12stone.com/] * ⛪️ Skyline Church [https://www.skylinechurch.org/] From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹 ⁠Youtube⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏 ⁠Apple⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤 ⁠Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS  03:50 – From John Maxwell’s Intern to Executive Pastor 08:26 – How the Executive Pastor Role Has Evolved 12:02 – Launching Five Campuses in One Sunday 19:00 – Supporting and Strengthening Senior Pastors 21:00 – God’s Calling to Partner with Kevin Myers 27:16 – Mentoring Leaders and Interpreting Culture 31:00 – Addressing Anxiety in Today’s Generation 32:05 – Prayer as the Foundation of Church Growth 35:03 – Developing One More Leader – – Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.  Backstage Pastors™️ is a Registered Trademark

The Accidental Executive Pastor with Becca Knudsen

In Episode 10 of Backstage Pastors™️, Phil and Tyler sit down with Becca Knudsen, Executive Pastor at Arvada Vineyard Church, to discuss her unique ministry journey, leading alongside a nationally influential lead pastor, and navigating major organizational transitions. Becca shares how an unexpected path—from Young Life leader to opera student to church administrator—ultimately led her into executive pastoral leadership. The conversation explores the realities of serving at a church whose lead pastor, Jay Pathak, also serves as the national director of Vineyard USA. Becca reflects on the spiritual, organizational, and personal challenges that accompanied that transition, including increased responsibility, leadership development, and organizational growing pains. She also provides an inside look at Arvada Vineyard’s decision to move away from a multi-site model and transition campuses into independent churches. Becca explains the discernment process, lessons learned, and why the church would still choose to plant churches in the future—while intentionally building toward eventual independence. Mentioned Resources * ⛪️ Arvada Vineyard Church [https://arvadavineyard.org/] * 💻 Learn more about the Vineyard movement [https://vineyardusa.org/] * 📅 Check out the Vineyard Gatherings [https://vineyardusa.org/events/] * 📅The Church Hub Cohorts [https://www.thechurchhub.org/] From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹 ⁠Youtube⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏 ⁠Apple⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤 ⁠Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS  03:47 – Becca’s Unconventional Journey into Ministry Leadership 13:18 – Leading Alongside the National Director of Vineyard USA 20:16 – The Challenges of Organizational Change and Staff Transitions 22:45 – Why Arvada Vineyard Reconsidered the Multi-Site Model 27:00 – Discernment, Independence, and Church Planting Strategy 35:00 – How the Congregation Experienced the Transition 37:32 – Building a Staff Rule of Life 42:00 – Sabbath, Solitude, Friendship, and Sustainable Ministry 46:00 – Final Leadership Reflections and Closing Thoughts – – Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.  Backstage Pastors™️ is a Registered Trademark

Why Healthy Churches Need Better Systems with Tim Stevens

In this episode of Backstage Pastors™️ Podcast, Phil and Tyler welcome veteran executive pastor and leadership consultant Tim Stevens for an in-depth conversation on ministry leadership, organizational health, and sustainable service in the second chair. Tim reflects on nearly 40 years of ministry experience spanning nonprofit leadership, Granger Community Church, Vanderbloemen, Willow Creek, and now Leading Smart. The conversation explores the evolving role of the executive pastor, including the tension between being highly executive-minded versus deeply pastoral. Tim shares insights from his e-book 40 Lessons in 40 Years: Wisdom for the Long Haul, unpacking lessons about visionary leaders and integrators, why systems are actually pastoral tools, healthy governance, leadership burnout, and managing energy for long-term ministry health. Tim also gives listeners an inside look at stepping into Willow Creek during one of the church’s most difficult seasons and explains how focusing on “the next right thing” helped guide the rebuilding process.  Guest Resources * 🗣️Follow Tim [https://www.instagram.com/timastevens]  * 📕40 Lessons in 40 Years: Wisdom for the Long Haul [https://www.leadingsmart.com/lessons] * 💻 Right Roles Assessment [https://www.leadingsmart.com/right-roles-assessment] * 💻LeadingSmart.com [http://leadingsmart.com] * 🎙️Tim’s Podcast [https://www.leadingsmart.com/podcast]  * 📅Leading Smart 2026 Gathering [https://www.leadingsmart.com/chicago26]  From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹 ⁠Youtube⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏 ⁠Apple⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤 ⁠Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS  04:05 Introducing Tim Stevens 07:18 Tim’s Ministry Journey and Leadership Background 10:18 Executive Pastor Wiring and Leadership Styles 13:42 40 Lessons in 40 Years 15:26 Why Visionary Leaders Need Integrators 18:01 Why Systems Are Pastoral 22:00 Sustainable Leadership and Managing Energy 26:06 Board Alignment and Healthy Governance 30:30 Leaving Church Ministry for Vanderbloemen and Leadership Consulting 34:10 Rebuilding Willow Creek Through Crisis 39:58 How Leading Smart Helps Churches Thrive – – Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.  Backstage Pastors™️ is a Registered Trademark

How To Be Second with Nathan Young and Dave Hartman

In this episode of the Backstage Pastors™️ Podcast, Phil Taylor and Tyler Drewitz welcome Nathan Young and Dave Hartman, co-authors of How to Be Second to discuss the identity, strengths, and challenges of second-chair leadership. The conversation explores why some leaders are uniquely wired for supporting roles, how executive pastors and operational leaders thrive, and why being second is not a stepping stone but a meaningful destination. Guest Resources * 🗣️Follow David [https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-hartman-ph-d]  * 🗣️Follow Nathan [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathan-s-young] * 📕How to Be Second by Nathan Young and Dave Hartman [https://www.amazon.com/How-Second-Being-Destination-Stepping/dp/B0C9W2BZQL] * 💻How to Be Second website: howtobesecond.com [http://howtobesecond.com]  From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹 ⁠Youtube⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏 ⁠Apple⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤 ⁠Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS 01:31 Phil’s Upcoming Church Projects and Travel 03:31 Introducing How to Be Second 06:00 Why Nathan and Dave Wrote the Book 10:00 Discovering the Identity of Second-Chair Leaders 17:17 The Difference Between “2s” and “2ICs” 24:23 Who the Book Is Really For 29:48 Imposter Syndrome and “Knowing What 10 Is” 33:07 What They Would Add to the Book Today 39:39 Final Encouragement and Resources – – Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.  Backstage Pastors™️ is a Registered Trademark

Clay Scroggins on How to Lead When You're Not in Charge

Phil Taylor interviews Clay Scroggins, former leader at North Point Community Church and author of How to Lead When You're Not in Charge. Clay shares his journey from engineering student to pastor, his experience serving in multi-site church leadership, and his transition into speaking and consulting. The conversation centers on leadership without authority—particularly relevant for executive pastors and second-chair leaders. Clay unpacks the myth that leadership requires a title and emphasizes influence as the true currency of leadership. He shares practical examples from both church and corporate environments, highlighting the importance of relational influence, emotional intelligence, and patience. They also discuss navigating organizational limitations, creating “pockets of greatness,” and leading oneself when broader change isn’t possible. Clay addresses the tension of ambition in ministry, distinguishing between selfish ambition and healthy, God-honoring drive. The episode also explores challenges like leading change in resistant environments, working under well-known leaders like Andy Stanley, and discerning when it’s time to stay or leave a role. The conversation is both practical and deeply reflective, offering encouragement and wisdom for leaders serving behind the scenes. Mentioned Event The XP Summit. Phil Taylor will be presenting at this year’s XP Summit. You can get your tickets at: xpsummit.org [http://xpsummit.org] Guest Resources * 🗣️Follow Clay [https://www.instagram.com/clayscroggins]  * 📕How to Lead When You're Not in Charge [https://a.co/d/0fr4Cb2f] by Clay Scroggins * 💻clayscroggins.com [http://clayscroggins.com] * 💻“Should I Stay or Should I Go?” [https://clayscroggins.gumroad.com/l/stayorgo](audio resource by Clay Scroggins) From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹 ⁠Youtube⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏 ⁠Apple⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤 ⁠Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS [04:00] – Clay’s Ministry Journey [11:00] – The Myth of Leadership Titles [17:20] – Authority vs. Influence [25:18] – Creating a Pocket of Greatness [29:00] – When to Stay or Leave a Role [33:00] – Healthy vs. Unhealthy Ambition [39:00] – Leading Change Without Authority [43:00] – Working Under a High-Profile Leader [47:00] – Final Encouragement & Resources – – Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.  Backstage Pastors™️ is a Registered Trademark