Clay Scroggins on How to Lead When You're Not in Charge

Why Healthy Churches Need Better Systems with Tim Stevens

In this episode of Backstage Pastors™️ Podcast, Phil and Tyler welcome veteran executive pastor and leadership consultant Tim Stevens for an in-depth conversation on ministry leadership, organizational health, and sustainable service in the second chair. Tim reflects on nearly 40 years of ministry experience spanning nonprofit leadership, Granger Community Church, Vanderbloemen, Willow Creek, and now Leading Smart. The conversation explores the evolving role of the executive pastor, including the tension between being highly executive-minded versus deeply pastoral. Tim shares insights from his e-book 40 Lessons in 40 Years: Wisdom for the Long Haul, unpacking lessons about visionary leaders and integrators, why systems are actually pastoral tools, healthy governance, leadership burnout, and managing energy for long-term ministry health. Tim also gives listeners an inside look at stepping into Willow Creek during one of the church’s most difficult seasons and explains how focusing on “the next right thing” helped guide the rebuilding process.  Guest Resources * 🗣️Follow Tim [https://www.instagram.com/timastevens]  * 📕40 Lessons in 40 Years: Wisdom for the Long Haul [https://www.leadingsmart.com/lessons] * 💻 Right Roles Assessment [https://www.leadingsmart.com/right-roles-assessment] * 💻LeadingSmart.com [http://leadingsmart.com] * 🎙️Tim’s Podcast [https://www.leadingsmart.com/podcast]  * 📅Leading Smart 2026 Gathering [https://www.leadingsmart.com/chicago26]  From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹 ⁠Youtube⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏 ⁠Apple⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤 ⁠Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS  04:05 Introducing Tim Stevens 07:18 Tim’s Ministry Journey and Leadership Background 10:18 Executive Pastor Wiring and Leadership Styles 13:42 40 Lessons in 40 Years 15:26 Why Visionary Leaders Need Integrators 18:01 Why Systems Are Pastoral 22:00 Sustainable Leadership and Managing Energy 26:06 Board Alignment and Healthy Governance 30:30 Leaving Church Ministry for Vanderbloemen and Leadership Consulting 34:10 Rebuilding Willow Creek Through Crisis 39:58 How Leading Smart Helps Churches Thrive – – Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.  Backstage Pastors™️ is a Registered Trademark

How To Be Second with Nathan Young and Dave Hartman

In this episode of the Backstage Pastors™️ Podcast, Phil Taylor and Tyler Drewitz welcome Nathan Young and Dave Hartman, co-authors of How to Be Second to discuss the identity, strengths, and challenges of second-chair leadership. The conversation explores why some leaders are uniquely wired for supporting roles, how executive pastors and operational leaders thrive, and why being second is not a stepping stone but a meaningful destination. Guest Resources * 🗣️Follow David [https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-hartman-ph-d]  * 🗣️Follow Nathan [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathan-s-young] * 📕How to Be Second by Nathan Young and Dave Hartman [https://www.amazon.com/How-Second-Being-Destination-Stepping/dp/B0C9W2BZQL] * 💻How to Be Second website: howtobesecond.com [http://howtobesecond.com]  From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹 ⁠Youtube⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏 ⁠Apple⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤 ⁠Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS 01:31 Phil’s Upcoming Church Projects and Travel 03:31 Introducing How to Be Second 06:00 Why Nathan and Dave Wrote the Book 10:00 Discovering the Identity of Second-Chair Leaders 17:17 The Difference Between “2s” and “2ICs” 24:23 Who the Book Is Really For 29:48 Imposter Syndrome and “Knowing What 10 Is” 33:07 What They Would Add to the Book Today 39:39 Final Encouragement and Resources – – Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.  Backstage Pastors™️ is a Registered Trademark

Clay Scroggins on How to Lead When You're Not in Charge

Phil Taylor interviews Clay Scroggins, former leader at North Point Community Church and author of How to Lead When You're Not in Charge. Clay shares his journey from engineering student to pastor, his experience serving in multi-site church leadership, and his transition into speaking and consulting. The conversation centers on leadership without authority—particularly relevant for executive pastors and second-chair leaders. Clay unpacks the myth that leadership requires a title and emphasizes influence as the true currency of leadership. He shares practical examples from both church and corporate environments, highlighting the importance of relational influence, emotional intelligence, and patience. They also discuss navigating organizational limitations, creating “pockets of greatness,” and leading oneself when broader change isn’t possible. Clay addresses the tension of ambition in ministry, distinguishing between selfish ambition and healthy, God-honoring drive. The episode also explores challenges like leading change in resistant environments, working under well-known leaders like Andy Stanley, and discerning when it’s time to stay or leave a role. The conversation is both practical and deeply reflective, offering encouragement and wisdom for leaders serving behind the scenes. Mentioned Event The XP Summit. Phil Taylor will be presenting at this year’s XP Summit. You can get your tickets at: xpsummit.org [http://xpsummit.org] Guest Resources * 🗣️Follow Clay [https://www.instagram.com/clayscroggins]  * 📕How to Lead When You're Not in Charge [https://a.co/d/0fr4Cb2f] by Clay Scroggins * 💻clayscroggins.com [http://clayscroggins.com] * 💻“Should I Stay or Should I Go?” [https://clayscroggins.gumroad.com/l/stayorgo](audio resource by Clay Scroggins) From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹 ⁠Youtube⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏 ⁠Apple⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤 ⁠Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS [04:00] – Clay’s Ministry Journey [11:00] – The Myth of Leadership Titles [17:20] – Authority vs. Influence [25:18] – Creating a Pocket of Greatness [29:00] – When to Stay or Leave a Role [33:00] – Healthy vs. Unhealthy Ambition [39:00] – Leading Change Without Authority [43:00] – Working Under a High-Profile Leader [47:00] – Final Encouragement & Resources – – Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.  Backstage Pastors™️ is a Registered Trademark

Kadi Cole on the Women’s XP Group and Developing Female Leaders

In this episode, Kadi Cole joins the Backstage Pastors™️ to discuss her unexpected journey into ministry and her passion for developing female leaders in the church. She shares how her experience as often the only woman in leadership led to the creation of the Women Executive Pastor (WXP) Network, now supporting hundreds of women in executive roles. Kadi explains the importance of mentorship, coaching, and especially sponsorship—highlighting how women are often overlooked in leadership development due to systemic habits rather than theology. She challenges male leaders to rethink how they view and support female leaders, emphasizing equal access to development resources and opportunities. The conversation also explores the unique challenges women face in leadership, including isolation, lack of role models, and navigating expectations. Kadi encourages churches to intentionally create pathways for women to grow and remain in ministry long-term. Resources Mentioned * 🗣️Follow Kadi [https://www.instagram.com/kadicole] * 📕Developing Female Leaders [https://a.co/d/04rZ0KZa] by Kadi Cole * 💻wxpastors.com [http://wxpastors.com] (Women Executive Pastor Network) * 💻https://kadicole.com [https://kadicole.com] * 💻https://femalechurchleaders.com [https://femalechurchleaders.com] * 🎙️Female Church Leaders Podcast [https://thefemalechurchleaderspodcast.buzzsprout.com]   From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚 ⁠Books by Phil⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻 ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻 ⁠myxp.church⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠ridgelineprinting.com [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹 ⁠Youtube⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏 ⁠Apple⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤 ⁠Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS [00:45] Introducing Kadi Cole[02:00] An Unlikely Ministry Journey[04:00] Birth of Women Executive Pastors Network[06:00] The Power of Female Community[09:20] Why Women Need Dedicated Spaces[12:40] Supporting Women in Leadership Growth[17:00] Mentorship, Coaching & Sponsorship[24:00] What Male Leaders Often Miss[31:20] Encouragement to Stay in the Calling – – Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.  [thegoodpodcast.co]

David Fletcher on Pastoral Compensation

In this episode of Backstage Pastors™️ Phil and Tyler sit down with David Fletcher, founder of XPastor.org, one of the most comprehensive resource hubs for executive pastors. David shares the origin story of his work, which began out of a lack of available research and has grown into a platform with thousands of resources and hundreds of thousands of annual users. The conversation explores practical tools available to executive pastors, including free courses, weekly webinars, and a robust salary database built from billions of dollars of church compensation data. David explains how churches can leverage this data for better, more objective compensation decisions and discusses the value of independent compensation studies. David is a wealth of knowledge gleaned from years of serving executive pastors — and from being one. Resources Mentioned * 💻 ⁠⁠⁠XPastor.org⁠ [XPastor.org] * ⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://theunstuckgroup.com/landing-page/church-building-projects-masterclass/]💲⁠Salary Forecaster [https://www.xpastor.org/courses/church-compensation/] From Our Partners 💻 ⁠The Church Hub⁠: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at ⁠⁠https://thechurchhub.org⁠⁠ [https://thechurchhub.org]   Connect with Phil Taylor ✉️⁠⁠ ⁠Get Phil's Newsletter⁠⁠⁠ [https://backstagepastors.us13.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=d2e6c50a43a3219c368d5fe4e&id=e617b3a474] ✉️ ⁠⁠phil@backstagepastors.org⁠⁠ 🗣️⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@philtaylorxp⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/philtaylorxp/]  📚⁠⁠ ⁠Books by Phil⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.amazon.com/stores/Phil-Taylor/author/B06VWSCCV6?ref=ap_rdr&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=8e6e4bb1-3a62-4ec3-a6eb-2d8c6bd776cc] 💻⁠⁠ ⁠backstagepastors.org⁠™️⁠⁠ [http://backstagepastors.org] 💻⁠⁠⁠plainjoestudios.com⁠⁠⁠ [http://plainjoestudios.com]  Connect with Tyler Drewitz ✉️ ⁠⁠tyler@myxp.church⁠⁠ 🗣️⁠⁠ ⁠⁠@tylerdrewitz⁠⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.instagram.com/tylerdrewitz/] 💻⁠⁠ ⁠myxp.church⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.myxp.church/] 💻⁠⁠⁠ridgelineprinting.com⁠⁠ [http://ridgelineprinting.com]⁠ The best way to support this podcast is to like, subscribe and share it with a friend. LIKE & SUBSCRIBE 📹⁠⁠ ⁠Youtube⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.youtube.com/@backstagepastors7152] 🍏⁠⁠ ⁠Apple⁠⁠⁠ [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-backstage-pastors/id1860421534] 🎤⁠⁠ ⁠Spotify⁠⁠ [https://open.spotify.com/show/4UjAzVaOsE0P2yCeukZODb?si=95933665830d4bea] CHAPTERS 01:34 Introducing David Fletcher & XPastor.org 07:29 The Origin Story of XPastor 10:00 Free Resources for Executive Pastors 12:00 Courses, Webinars & Getting Started 14:11 Compensation Data & Salary Forecaster17:00 Why Churches Need Compensation Studies 23:41 Benefits, Trends & Staffing Insights 27:39 The Retirement Crisis for Pastors 29:13 Innovation, AI & Leadership Mindset – – Editing and Support by ⁠⁠The Good Podcast Co.⁠⁠ [thegoodpodcast.co]