The Evolving Leader

'The Power of No' with Dr Sunita Sah

In this episode of The Evolving Leader, hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are joined by Dr. Sunita Sah, a physician turned organisational psychologist and Professor of Management at Cornell University. Together they explore the power of saying “no” in a world that rewards compliance. Drawing from her acclaimed book “Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes”, Dr Sah reveals how our upbringing, institutions, and social pressures teach us to equate being “good” with being obedient, and how that conditioning can silence our values. She introduces the concept of “insinuation anxiety,” the discomfort of implying distrust when we disagree, and shares how to build the courage and skill to act in alignment with what truly matters. For senior leaders, this conversation reframes defiance as an essential leadership practice, not rebellion, but integrity in action. Sah explains the five stages of defiance, the cost of compliance, and why organisations that cultivate psychological safety and intellectual humility outperform those that suppress challenge. It’s a thought-provoking guide to leading with authenticity, courage, and moral clarity in complex systems where it’s often easier to say yes. Further materials from Sunita Sah: “Defy: The Power of No in a Worlds That Demands Yes”, (Blink Publishing, February 2025) “The science of defiance: A psychology researcher explains why people comply – and how to resist”, (The Conversations, September 2025) “America thinks it’s a country of free thinkers. But we’re actually compliant”, (Los Angeles Times, February 2025)  “How to Say No and Mean It”, (Psychology Today, January 2025)    Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender: Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Linear-Innovation-Leadership-Jean-Gomes/dp/1119672724/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3E3W0GTVZ3QX7&keywords=leading+in+a+nonlinear+world&qid=1698048316&sprefix=leading+in+a+non+linear+world%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-1] The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enneagram-Emotional-Intelligence-Personal-Professional-ebook/dp/B0B6Q469ZZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TTFDCHXWSVZD&keywords=Allender+enneagram&qid=1698048262&sprefix=allender+enneagram%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-1] Social: Instagram           @evolvingleader LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast Twitter               @Evolving_Leader Bluesky            @evolvingleader.bsky.social YouTube           @evolvingleader   The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/jean-gomes] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] with production by Phil Kerby [https://www.weareoutside.com/phil-kerby]. It is an Outside [https://www.weareoutside.com/evolving-leader] production. Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/1309339/open_sms]

'The Extinction of Experience' with Dr Christine Rosen

In this thought-provoking episode of The Evolving Leader, hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender talk with Dr Christine Rosen, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and author of The Extinction of Experience. The conversation examines how our growing dependence on technology is subtly reshaping what it means to be human, thinning our attention, dulling empathy, and changing how we connect and make sense of the world. Drawing on history, neuroscience and cultural observation, Christine invites us to pause and consider what is the true cost of convenience, and how do we reclaim our embodied authentic experience in a digital world? For leaders, this conversation is a wake-up call. As AI accelerates and organisations seek ever greater efficiency, Rosen argues that the future advantage will belong to those who can cultivate distinctly human capacities, presence, curiosity, and discernment. Her insights challenge us to create workplaces that strengthen, rather than outsource, our humanity.   Further materials from Christine Rosen: ‘The Extinction Of Experience’ (Jan, 2025) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extinction-Experience-Christine-Rosen/dp/1847922082/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0]  Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:  Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Linear-Innovation-Leadership-Jean-Gomes/dp/1119672724/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3E3W0GTVZ3QX7&keywords=leading+in+a+nonlinear+world&qid=1698048316&sprefix=leading+in+a+non+linear+world%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-1] The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enneagram-Emotional-Intelligence-Personal-Professional-ebook/dp/B0B6Q469ZZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TTFDCHXWSVZD&keywords=Allender+enneagram&qid=1698048262&sprefix=allender+enneagram%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-1] Social: Instagram           @evolvingleader LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast Twitter               @Evolving_Leader Bluesky            @evolvingleader.bsky.social YouTube           @evolvingleader   The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/jean-gomes] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] with production by Phil Kerby [https://www.weareoutside.com/phil-kerby]. It is an Outside [https://www.weareoutside.com/evolving-leader] production. Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/1309339/open_sms]

BONUS EPISODE - "Innovate Into The Unknown" with Atif Rafiq

In this bonus episode of The Evolving Leader podcast, co-hosts Scott Allender and Arjun Sahdev talk to Atif Rafiq, the first Chief Digital Officer in Fortune 500 history and former senior executive at McDonald’s, Volvo, and MGM Resorts. Now CEO and co-founder of Ritual, an AI-powered workflow platform, Atif shares how leaders can build decision-making systems that are faster, fairer, and more adaptive in an age of complexity. He explains his core principle of “exploration before alignment” and why premature agreement kills curiosity and weakens problem-solving. Find out more about Atif Rafiq: www.ritual.work [https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ritual.work%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cphil%40weareoutside.com%7C6aa116fe9501485231c008de11e3004f%7C0b6659abc89d4f45988053d6a4496c0a%7C0%7C0%7C638967863846072387%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pIei%2BogFRsdUslKXtX%2BlszbLWeVWHWbTSolquv2yMNI%3D&reserved=0] www.decisionsprint.com [https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.decisionsprint.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cphil%40weareoutside.com%7C6aa116fe9501485231c008de11e3004f%7C0b6659abc89d4f45988053d6a4496c0a%7C0%7C0%7C638967863846087870%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XO8K2SQgdJ%2FV6ziz9V3HmT2TMXihahNMFcro6SuJpNE%3D&reserved=0] https://www.linkedin.com/in/atif1/ [https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fatif1%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cphil%40weareoutside.com%7C6aa116fe9501485231c008de11e3004f%7C0b6659abc89d4f45988053d6a4496c0a%7C0%7C0%7C638967863846097417%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3%2FjGv4GOhABFbWieyma74V3q6DEoSCW69GTxazrEZ3Y%3D&reserved=0] https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/re-wire-6765332215867031552/ [https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fnewsletters%2Fre-wire-6765332215867031552%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cphil%40weareoutside.com%7C6aa116fe9501485231c008de11e3004f%7C0b6659abc89d4f45988053d6a4496c0a%7C0%7C0%7C638967863846108127%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MV%2FdsnP3CJ4Azv1TPLL8yj6pe9HniXU1b3xmY1Yk358%3D&reserved=0] Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender: Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Linear-Innovation-Leadership-Jean-Gomes/dp/1119672724/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3E3W0GTVZ3QX7&keywords=leading+in+a+nonlinear+world&qid=1698048316&sprefix=leading+in+a+non+linear+world%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-1] The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enneagram-Emotional-Intelligence-Personal-Professional-ebook/dp/B0B6Q469ZZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TTFDCHXWSVZD&keywords=Allender+enneagram&qid=1698048262&sprefix=allender+enneagram%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-1] Social: Instagram           @evolvingleader LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/jean-gomes] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] with production by Phil Kerby [https://www.weareoutside.com/phil-kerby]. It is an Outside [https://www.weareoutside.com/evolving-leader] production. Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/1309339/open_sms]

'Leading From The Heart' with Mark Crowley

In this latest episode of The Evolving Leader podcast, Jean Gomes is joined by Mark Crowley, author of Lead from the Heart, to explore how emotion, belonging, and authentic care are redefining leadership for the modern world. Mark shares his remarkable personal journey, from an upbringing shaped by trauma to a career built on leading through compassion. We hear how what began as an instinctive way to give others what he never received became a philosophy now backed by neuroscience and organisational research. Jean and Mark unpack why traditional engagement models are failing, how the science of emotion is reshaping our understanding of performance, and why belonging and care are now the greatest predictors of organisational health.  This is a powerful conversation for leaders seeking to create cultures that elevate both human well-being and business results. Further materials from Mark Crowley: “Don’t Measure Employee Engagement—Support Employee Well-Being” (2025, Porchlight Book Company) “5 Leadership Strategies To Help Teams Thrive Amid Uncertainty” (2025, Fast Company) “Leaders don’t really care about employee engagement. Here’s why” (2024, Fast Company) “How leaders can address the human energy crisis” (2023, Fast Company) “Lead From The Heart: Transformational Leadership For The 21st Century” (2011, Balboa Press)   Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:  Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Linear-Innovation-Leadership-Jean-Gomes/dp/1119672724/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3E3W0GTVZ3QX7&keywords=leading+in+a+nonlinear+world&qid=1698048316&sprefix=leading+in+a+non+linear+world%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-1] The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enneagram-Emotional-Intelligence-Personal-Professional-ebook/dp/B0B6Q469ZZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TTFDCHXWSVZD&keywords=Allender+enneagram&qid=1698048262&sprefix=allender+enneagram%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-1] Social: Instagram           @evolvingleader LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast Twitter               @Evolving_Leader Bluesky            @evolvingleader.bsky.social YouTube           @evolvingleader   The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/jean-gomes] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] with production by Phil Kerby [https://www.weareoutside.com/phil-kerby]. It is an Outside [https://www.weareoutside.com/evolving-leader] production. Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/1309339/open_sms]

‘Exploring Imagination’ with Adam Zeman

In this episode of The Evolving Leader, co-hosts Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/team] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] talk to neurologist and author Adam Zeman [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Zeman_(neurologist)] about his latest book The Shape of Things Unseen. Together they explore how imagination helps us step outside the here and now, recall the past, and anticipate the future, and why this ability matters more than ever in a world shaped by automation and accelerating change. Adam takes us inside the science of the mind’s eye, from aphantasia (the inability to visualise) to hyperphantasia (imagery as vivid as reality), and unpacks what these differences reveal about creativity, culture and leadership. This conversation offers practical insights for leaders on cultivating imagination within organisations, the role of daydreaming in innovation, and how to create environments where ideas can flourish. Further materials from Adam Zeman: Zeman, A. (2025). The Shape of Things Unseen: A New Science of Imagination. Bloomsbury. Zeman, A., Milton, F., Della Sala, S. (2024). “Aphantasia and Hyperphantasia: Exploring imagery vividness extremes.” Cortex, 170, 1–14. Zeman, A. (2024). “Aphantasia: The science of visual imagery absence.” Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 28(3), 189–200.   Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender: Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Non-Linear-Innovation-Leadership-Jean-Gomes/dp/1119672724/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3E3W0GTVZ3QX7&keywords=leading+in+a+nonlinear+world&qid=1698048316&sprefix=leading+in+a+non+linear+world%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-1] The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023) [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enneagram-Emotional-Intelligence-Personal-Professional-ebook/dp/B0B6Q469ZZ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3TTFDCHXWSVZD&keywords=Allender+enneagram&qid=1698048262&sprefix=allender+enneagram%2Caps%2C60&sr=8-1] Social: Instagram           @evolvingleader LinkedIn             The Evolving Leader Podcast Twitter               @Evolving_Leader Bluesky            @evolvingleader.bsky.social YouTube           @evolvingleader   The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes [https://www.weareoutside.com/jean-gomes] and Scott Allender [https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-allender-4170465/] with production by Phil Kerby [https://www.weareoutside.com/phil-kerby]. It is an Outside [https://www.weareoutside.com/evolving-leader] production. Send a message to The Evolving Leader team [https://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/1309339/open_sms]