Unboxing It with Lara and Rowan

44: That's Just How I Am

There is a fine line between “I can’t change” and “I don’t want to change”. We talk about that difference, and the times when it might be worth exploring whether or not change is something you actually want to make. If it is, what mindset shifts can you make to create it? Transcript (please note, these are not edited for accuracy so might be wonky) Rowan: I personally believe the entire reason I’m here is so that I can continue to grow and develop and help others, and et cetera, right? But I can’t do that if I stay stuck and just tell myself, “This is it,” and never push beyond that. [00:00:39] Lara: Welcome to Unboxing It. I’m Lara. [00:00:41] Rowan: And I’m Rowan. [00:00:43] Lara: And we are gonna talk a little bit about who we are and whether or not we should just accept who we are in every given moment, or whether or not there’s room to spend some time thinking about it. [00:00:58] Rowan: It’s a more complicated issue than people realize it is. [00:01:02] Lara: It is. And I think that it comes down to, you know, there’s parts of us that say, “Well, that’s just who I am,” and that means you are digging your heels in and trying to demonstrate that you are empowered and not letting other people change you. And the other side of it is that I think when people say, “That’s just who I am,” it’s because they feel like it’s the opposite of being empowered. It’s where I see people saying, like, “That’s just how it goes.” And, certainly as I just said that, I was like, “Oh, that’s what I do with feeling sick. That’s just who I am, I feel sick.” But there are things that you can do. There are ways that you can look into things. There are times when doing a little reflection means that you could change things. And once you’ve done that reflection and you come up with the end result where you’re back to the same place, “Yes, that is who I am.” I think the reason this conversation is important is the difference between, “That’s just how it is,” and, “I’ve spent time thinking about this, and I have figured out that this is how it is.” And it’s such a small difference ... Like, it’s a small difference when you say it, but it’s a big difference when you think about what went into deciding and embodying and figuring out what works for you as a human being. [00:02:30] Rowan: I have so many examples of this in my personal life, but we can talk about it in a bigger context right now, a more general context. When you kept saying it like that, when you kept going like, “ That’s just who I am,” it made me think of a dad. You know? Like a stubborn middle-aged dad- Yeah ... who’s just like, “No. I, you know, I don’t do that. That’s just who I am. I don’t do that stuff.” and that is, I think we all know a dad like that. We all know a man like that. And we know some women like that. We know a lot of people like that in general. But,I know so many men like that, especially older men, who just say, “Oh, that’s just who I am. I’m not gonna change.” And it’s almost a defiance thing. Like, I think in that particular case- It feels really tied into something else that I was talking about earlier this week on Threads. I think it was yesterday. There was a, man who was talking about how he tried to be vulnerable online, and he deleted the post because he was told by a lot of people, “Women have it worse. Women have it worse.” And so he just, he’s like, “Look, if we wanna change things, we have to leave room for men to be able to be vulnerable, too.” And this led to a much deeper conversation where he got a lot of support, including from me, because I said, “Look, I’m the same person. But I lived as a woman for over 40 years, and I was allowed to express my feelings. I was allowed to grow. I was allowed to be vulnerable. I was allowed to do those things. And then now that the world sees me as a man, Like, same person, same emotions, same everything, same level of vulnerability, and I am often encouraged to keep it to myself.” And I think when we think about a man in that context, but maybe just a lot of people in general,it’s people who have tried to explore things maybe in the past, maybe a long time ago. Maybe when they were kids. Maybe they tried to make a change, and they were shut down. They were shut down really fast. society really loves to keep people in boxes. We’ve talked about this a lot. And so how much of this is learned behavior, and how much of this is maybe fear of pushing back against that learned behavior? [00:04:46] Lara: Yeah. I think it’s probably a lot of them, or all of them. perhaps throughout your life you’ve struggled to have emotional conversations, and it went badly when you tried to. I mean, this is the example you just gave. But,, that gets reinforced to the point where you think it’s not worth trying anymore. And I don’t know that everybody thinks... I don’t even know that this makes sense, but I think that there are times when people are like, “There’s no point.” Right? “So it’s not that I’m not willing to look into it. there’s no point. I’ve tried. This has been hard my whole life. I can’t change it.” And- [00:05:26] Rowan: Mm ... [00:05:26] Lara: maybe, maybe there’s some truth to that, but there’s also the idea that you can look at something in a different way, right? It’s not, that you don’t just have to try harder You don’t have to just push harder. You don’t have to be stricter. You have to think about things and unpack it. You have to ask yourself some questions. You have to ask yourself what you’re willing to do to change it. You have to ask yourself if you believe that an alternative, ending or way of being is possible. because if you don’t believe it’s possible, it’s not gonna happen. [00:06:04] Rowan: Yeah. and also I think we need to really examine the why, right? I think genuinely when we look at changing ourselves as human beings and whether or not it is worth putting the work into making that change, maybe we are pushing against beliefs, maybe we are pushing against,intrinsic behaviors we’ve had for a really long time. Maybe we’re pushing against fear. There has to be a strong reason to do that. So whenever I’m looking at making changes in my own life, I often ask myself, “ Is what I’m doing right now, is the way I’m living right now, is the way I’m behaving right now, is that working for me?” If it’s working for me, then there’s really no reason to examine it. But if it’s not working for me, no matter how difficult it might be for me to make that change, I still have to do it. I still have to at least try to do it. Because I go back to my transness, and I know I do that a lot, but it is a very... I think trans people have a special place in society in which we do something that is very difficult to do, and that a lot of people don’t understand, and we do it anyway because we really need to. we have to. And so that’s why I keep going back to that as an example in a lot of our episodes. But I, in a lot of ways, had it made as a woman, if you will, right? I was a very successful woman in my own right. was a mother. I was a wife. I literally was, like, you know, the keynote speaker multiple times at women’s events, International Women’s Day. I was, and this will only matter to Canadians, but I was a Chatelaine Woman of the Year. I was a 2020 Woman of Influence, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, as far as women go,I was doing really well at womaning. But I was miserable I was absolutely miserable. It was like a suit that never fit me. And transitioning, especially as a public figure, especially with other trans people already in my family, bringing on the whole idea of it being a contagion or something somehow- perpetuating that kind of stereotype,, that misinformation that can really harm our community. I mean, for so many reasons, being middle-aged. I mean, It was extremely challenging to do this. But I also knew that what I was doing before and who I was before wasn’t working. It just wasn’t who I was. And so that I use as an example simply because it is an extreme example, in some ways, of The way that I’m living or who I am right now just isn’t working for me. And so at that point, do I just keep going, “Well, that’s just who I am”? Because you know what? I tried the self-acceptance thing. I tried to just be like, “Well, I’m a woman.” I mean, gosh, I could not get more woman than I was, if you really wanna look at it that way. It didn’t work. So when we are examining the idea of making changes, if it is a really difficult change, it doesn’t mean necessarily that it can’t be done. It just means that we need enough motivation to do it. [00:09:24] Lara: And potentially support. So certainly as a coach, and my work as a business coach, I always leaned a little bit more to mindset and,you know, not quite life coach-y, but, it felt like that with some people, right? Because one of the things that I could often see were mindsets and ways of being that weren’t just about, well, if you just do this thing, change your pricing, and everything will be better. It’s like some of it is you don’t believe it, and that, ... maybe you need to look at that. Some of it is around confidence. I mean, mindset impacts every little, tiny inch of our lives, right? Like, it’s everywhere. And being certain that something can’t change when the result of that thing is ultimately making you unhappy is just giving in, in my opinion, right? so if you are ultimately unhappy because of something that you think is just how you are, then to me it’s worth saying, “ Well- Can we unpack that and figure out what we can do instead? And it doesn’t always mean transitioning, right? It can mean- ... just a little bit of introspection and a little bit of... So a good one for me is what if, right? So what if this bad thing happens? What if this bad thing happens? What if this bad thing happens? And... I know it’s annoying when you’re in that mode of what if, terrible, terrible, terrible. If somebody’s like, “But what if it all works out?” Is understandably annoying. But also, if you can start to, like, even consider a little bit of what if it worked out, even if it goes along with your what if it doesn’t work out, but just, like, it’s still there as an option, that starts to change your brain. It starts to change everything about what you believe is worth trying and doing. And so sometimes it’s just considering, I’m not saying you have to believe it, I’m saying consider one alternative and try that on. Ask yourself to keep considering alternatives and see what happens. it can be as small as that. What if this is a good idea instead of something that’s going to mean something bad? And if right away you come to the conclusion that no, it is not a good idea, then that’s okay. But if there’s an option for it to be something that works, let yourself, feel that just a little bit. [00:12:02] Rowan: I like that. it’s like planting the seed and you don’t have to do anything with it just yet. You’ve planted the seed. And just allowing yourself to entertain the thought that maybe some level of change could happen is huge. And I feel like I went off on a tangent about transness, and I could already hear 2018 Twitter getting big mad at me. because ... And this is why I always, bring this up, because I do think it’s important. we do have to at least bring the idea of privilege into any conversation like this. Some people, if we go to, say all the way to transition, it’s simply not safe for them to transition, so they don’t have that option, right? There are a lot of things that can get in our way. And also I think that sometimes we can tell ourselves that there are too many obstacles in our way- As a way of not even entertaining it. So I think both can be true. I think privilege and the obstacles that some people face are very, very real and sometimes make something impossible. That’s true. And also, and I’m use myself again, sometimes we tell ourselves stories about where we’re at. Like, I remember telling myself a story for years that I could never make anything of myself because I only have a high school education. And as I’ve mentioned a million times on this podcast, I tried to go to school as a teenager, and I had a lot of obstacles, including some housing insecurity that made it very difficult for me to go to school and graduate. So I didn’t. I went back much later at 37. I graduated at 38 years old with a high school diploma. I do not have any more education than that. And for years, what I struggled with was that I could never be, I’m gonna use air quotes ‘cause this means different things to different people, successful because I didn’t have anything beyond high school. I could never be anything I wanted to be because I don’t have the education. And if you’re looking at, like, I could never be a doctor, or I could never be a lawyer, yeah, that’s true. I could never be an engineer. Truth. That’s... You actually have to go get a degree for those things. But I limited myself for such a long time. I told myself that over and over and over. the idea of even trying felt pointless. And I didn’t have that education privilege. I really didn’t. I didn’t have the money to go to school. I didn’t have the means to go to school. I had three kids at that time. Money was very tight. There was no way, in a lot of ways, that I could go to school. and that’s a story I told. But I actually did manage to become quite successful in ways that matter to me and in some ways that I thought would matter to me and then ended up not really mattering, but I digress. I have a really amazing life now. I have a life that is extremely fulfilling. I have achieved all the things I’ve always dreamed about achieving, true story, and I only have a high school education. So what changed? What changed was I stopped telling myself that I could never do anything that I set my mind to because I didn’t have enough education. So I, again, I think both things can be true at the same time. [00:15:26] Lara: And there’s just endless examples like this, right? It’s, “I’m not smart enough.” Well- Maybe you’re not smart in certain ways because not all of us are equally smart in all ways. Maybe you are taking some kind of measure of your intelligence that was not the best way to measure your intelligence and just deciding that that’s true forevermore. But no matter what, everybody has different strengths in different areas. And if you say, “Well, I struggle with this kind of thing,” and then instead we say, “Okay, so what do you not struggle with, and how can we use that to your advantage?” And if we can pinpoint that thing that feels easier for you, and move with it, then suddenly you can see opportunities you couldn’t see before. But if you’re stuck in, “I can’t do it, I can’t do it, I can’t do it,” then you’re right, you can’t do it. But if you’re willing to stop and consider other options. So an example might be if you say, “Well, I’m not a good writer,” which I’ve talked to a lot of people who’ve told me they’re not a good writer, but they’re great on video or they’re great with their hands. And those things are very important also, so lean into that and don’t tell yourself you can’t do anything because you believe that you need to be a good writer in order to be successful at anything. And I do think that’s how some people feel, right? Like, if I was going to be somebody who could be successful, I need to be like this, like this, like this, like this, whatever the list that they’ve created is. And if they don’t believe that they can be those things, then that blocks them off from success versus let’s look at, a different path, a different door, a different measure of success, and suddenly all kinds of new possibilities pop up. [00:17:20] Rowan: It really is about utilizing what you have. again, there is that nuance. There is that nuance where you have, maybe somebody isn’t a strong writer, and - they don’t have that natural ability to throw words onto paper. and there are a million people who are actually very good at writing who, don’t realize they’re good at writing so there’s that too. But if you don’t, try to figure out how to grow, and growing’s going to look different for all of us. Like, I can accept... I have an anxiety disorder, and, Lara, you were instrumental at reminding me early last year that I should really go back on my meds, right? Because I was not in a good place, and I did go back on my meds, and I take them every day, and I am in a much, much better situation because of it, so thank you. and I will always have an anxiety disorder. I know that because I have had it my entire life, since I was too young to even know what a panic attack was. I’ve always had an anxiety disorder. it’s just, that is the way my brain works, and so it is, in its own way... I don’t know if I’d go as far as to classify it as a disability, but it certainly does , get in front of a lot of things that I try to do sometimes. But I’ve stopped telling myself that I can’t do things because I have an anxiety disorder, and that’s something I did for a long time, and now I’m like, “No, you know what? I can take bigger risks even with an anxiety disorder.” What I need, though, is to find ways to manage it, and I need to work on a lot of cognitive behavioral techniques and that sort of thing so that I can manage the stress when it comes up. and so that has allowed me to move forward in my life in a way that I couldn’t when I kept telling myself, “I’m too anxious for that. I’m too anxious for that. I’m too anxious for that.” That being said, if I don’t really need to do something, like for example, going into a really loud bar environment, it completely overwhelms me most of the time. it’s just too much. Too much for my brain, too much for my anxiety. I really don’t enjoy myself, right? And I could push through, but why would I push through? there’s no need to do that unless I absolutely have to, and I don’t absolutely have to, so I just choose not to do that. But if I needed to do that for some reason, I think I would have the incentive to try and figure out how to manage that better. So it really is, for me, all about accepting who I am, and making some allowances for that, but also not using who I am as a reason not to grow in the areas that I feel I need to grow. [00:20:08] Lara: Yeah. I think the that’s just who I am part becomes like a defensive roadblock, and what we’re looking for is to ask ourselves what we want and to figure out how, and maybe if, but how it’s possible. And this comes up in lots of ways. I like to- Try to find ways to push out of my comfort zone because I find that that helps me grow. So even if we go back to the example, I’m sure I’ve talked about this on the show before, but I did a stand-up comedy course, and I had a lot of anxiety and stress in multiple parts of that experience because it was really uncomfortable. And I powered through because I wanted to have done it. If I didn’t want that experience, for example, I do not want to bungee jump. [00:20:59] Rowan: Right. [00:21:01] Lara: Same. Could I? Probably I could do it, but I really don’t want to. Therefore, pushing through the discomfort is not an incentive for me. And so whenever you say things like, “I wish I could, but I can’t,” then instead it’s more about, “I wish I could. Can I?” And that’s it. Mm-hmm. That’s the little change in what I think this conversation is important about. It’s not that you have to suddenly change things. It’s not that if you’re like, “That’s just who I am,” you have to change it all. But it is, “ Do you want to change it? Why do you wanna change it? How could it change? Are you sure that you can’t change it a little bit, even if it’s not how somebody else would expect you to change it?” But the point is that you have the ability to ask yourself what you want, decide what’s worth the effort, and do some thinking so that you’re not just stuck in, “This is what I thought it was once, 20 years ago, and therefore, that’s what it is forever.” [00:22:10] Rowan: There’s this... First of all, first of all, that was really deep. Like, could I, right? - that’s huge. - That is the key. As opposed to just completely blocking it out, it was just allowing yourself that permission to explore it, that’s huge. I forgot the other thing I was going to say, because that is just what happens when I, uh, you know- That’s [00:22:30] Lara: just who [00:22:30] Rowan: you are. Uh,yeah. That’s just who I am. Okay, I figured it out. I wanted to talk about the science behind this because I think some of this has happened because - we’ve known for a long time, because it’s very obvious, that when you’re young, you’re constantly learning. You look at a baby, and the baby grows, and the baby’s learning. And then suddenly it’s a toddler, and they’re learning new words, and then they, running. And this goes on and on, and you even watch it through, like, adolescence. And then by about 25, in most brains, the frontal lobe stops developing, and we have considered for a very long time that then people are fully formed. And so the story, the science told for a very long time is that is who we are. And we’ve talked about nature versus nurture, and there’s been a lot of back and forth about that, and whether or not we just come out the way we are, or are we made that way through experience or a little bit of both? But what has been more recent that a lot of neuroscientists are now talking about is neuroplasticity, which basically means our brains are still able to develop new neural pathways throughout our entire lives, and that is so cool. Learning that was a big part of how I learned that I could change some of my behaviors that I thought were very stuck, that they were rigid, that my brain had stopped developing. This is where I was, and then suddenly, I’m introduced, through YouTube videos by neuroscientists, to the concept of neuroplasticity. And I really encourage people to look this up. If you really think, “This is who I am and I can’t change. I can never change this,” that might be true of some things. Certainly, there are some things. Some people just have a bit more of a sense of humor. Some people are a little more laid back. Some people are a little more, forgetful. Or, like, there are certainly some things in our lives that, are not, necessarily going to change, easily at least. but neuroplasticity allows us to develop new mindsets. It allows us to develop new behaviors, and so it is never too late. I’m a very different person approaching 50 than I was even five years ago, and it’s not just because I transitioned. It’s because I allowed myself to grow. I took risks that I never thought I would take. I was like, “Ah, I’m in love. You know what I’m gonna do? Leave my cozy little Ottawa suburb that I have been in forever, where my entire family lives, and I have all these people I know, and, you know, I’m really well-connected in the city. I’m gonna pick up and move to Toronto,” which I never, ever thought I would do, always said I would never even consider. “ And I’m gonna do it for love, and I’m gonna see what happens.” And doing that was transformative. Suddenly- I am living a completely different life that suits me so much better. But the level of calm in my body, huge. it’s been a game changer. and , just the way I think about the world, I’ve had quite a, I don’t wanna call it a spiritual awakening, but I guess in a way, just how I see the world, how I see the universe, how I see other people, how I... Just everything has changed dramatically. So I do think sometimes that when we know we can grow, when we know we can change something, when we know there’s at least a hope that something can change, it really does help us because people are growing all the time. I,personally believe, and everybody’s different, but I personally believe the entire reason I’m here is so that I can continue to grow and develop and help others, and et cetera, right? But I can’t do that if I stay stuck and just tell myself, “This is it,” and never push beyond that. So yeah, going past your comfort zone, even just a little bit, even with just that thought that you were saying, Lara,of, could I? , that can open the door to so many things. [00:26:53] Lara: Yeah. I have a little list of things that I thought of while you were talking, so I’m gonna just run through some of them. [00:26:59] Rowan: While, I was, like, on my, . Large ramble. I am a man with a podcast, you know, so I mean, y- Isn’t that the whole point, that I just want everyone to listen to me? [00:27:07] Lara: Well, and the whole point for me is that I love when my brain gets excited and thinks of all the things, so this is perfect. But , the- I think the neuroplasticity thing is huge, e- especially if you’re, our age or older, Gen X or older. We were definitely taught you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, and that was really something that everybody believed was true. And then when science was like, “Actually, neuroplasticity means you can learn things all the time,” it’s just a good reminder. If you think, “I didn’t learn that, I’m now, and I can’t do it,” like, yes, you can. You can try new things. You can do new things. You can still grow and just push through things and find new ways of being. So, I think that’s such a good reminder. I was thinking of another example as we were talking about the kinds of things that people believe. It’s one I hear a lot of because of the art that I do, is like, “I’m just not a creative person.” And I don’t generally believe people when they say that because they are creative in some way, and they can find the creative endeavor that is right for them. And that’s again, that slight shift. I’m not creative. Okay. But what if you try a couple of different things and see if you like it? And that’s where if you hate it, don’t keep doing it. If you’re surprised and you want to try to, find more of those skills, then do it, right? And I think that’s ultimately what I hoped people would get out of this conversation. It’s not that we think you have to change. It’s that what my biggest hope is that you don’t think you can’t when you want to. It’s okay to want something different than you have now. It’s okay to change your mind about what you wanted before and decide that you want something new now. It’s okay to want to push into ways of being that are completely different than you used to have. If none of those things appeal to you, like maybe this conversation isn’t for you. But the point is you don’t have to feel like you’re stuck and nothing can change if you don’t want to. that’s the thing that I really hoped people would take away from this. If that’s not what you want, if you hoped that something could be different, but it feels like it couldn’t, this is when looking at it a little bit more and asking yourself a few questions could be a really interesting and worthwhile exercise. [00:29:40] Rowan: What I like to do is I like to ask myself, “Am I content?” And for a long time, I wasn’t content. There were a number of things I wanted to change. Today when I ask myself, “Am I content with who I am?” Yes, I’m very content. There’s a couple little things that I’m working on, of course. I’m always working. You know, some insecurities and, I tend to be a little defensive, which is sort of related to insecurity. So like I’m working on those things, for sure. But overall, I’m very content with who I am and where I am, so I don’t really need to change anything. If I say that’s just who I am, that’s just who I am right now. That’s okay. And you know what? If that ever stops working for me, then maybe I start to question it a little bit more. so yeah, if you are content in your life, if things are going well for you, if you are happy with who you are and how you navigate the world, great. then this conversation was not needed. If you are somebody who has resisted, personal growth or change of any kind- Because you think it’s not possible, maybe this conversation is for you- ... to at least explore it. So yeah, I think it’s a really healthy conversation to have. And if the conversation made you uncomfortable, sit with that for a little bit. Because when something has made me uncomfortable, it’s usually because deep down I need to explore it a little bit more. [00:31:07] Lara: And it’s that whole piece of, like, you can look into it without throwing yourself into a panic attack, right? we’re just stepping into little questions and ways of thinking about things that can be different to see how they feel. That’s it. It’s just a little bit of exploration. [00:31:25] Rowan: A little bit of exploration, not testosterone and top surgery. Although maybe. I mean, who knows? [00:31:31] Lara: Well, I’m just saying that’s not step one. [00:31:35] Rowan: No, it’s not step one. That’s like step 27. That’s like, it’s way down the line. [00:31:42] Lara: And just taking the time to consider things does not mean that you are now committed through to step 84, right? Like, that’s, again, part of this, is you can keep figuring things out and keep figuring out what’s best for you. And, like, let’s just see what happens. [00:31:58] Rowan: My favorite thing that I’ve seen some people do is they go, “ Okay. Yeah, I could see how that might be something I wanna look at, but I’m not gonna look at it right now, but I acknowledge the need to look at it, and I’m gonna look at it later.” That’s cool. Good for you. Maybe, you know, you don’t have the bandwidth right now, but you know it’s something you wanna look at. I commend you, right? As opposed to just r- rushing right in when maybe you’re not ready to rush right in. So yeah, it is totally okay to take everything like that at your own pace. [00:32:31] Lara: Yeah. it’s that empowered piece, right? It’s not that life is happening to you. It’s not that you don’t have control. It’s just that you do have enough control to say, “Maybe one day, but not right now.” And so keep just stretching into things. Keep asking questions. Keep questioning when you feel stuck to figure out what alternatives could exist. And that’s what I hope people take away from today. [00:32:58] Rowan: Thank you so much for joining us today. This was such a cool conversation, and it’s got me thinking all kinds of ways. if you have anything to say about this, if you are excited we talked about this, uncomfortable we talked about this, big mad that we talked about this, feel free to drop us a line. You can send us a message, via email. You can write something on our Substack. We love to hear from you. Feel free to hit the subscribe button, download all of our latest episodes. And, if you are somebody who has something to say, if you think that we have missed something important and you are someone who is knowledgeable in that area, let us know. Maybe we can have you on for an episode. [00:33:44] Lara: Love it. I will also say, if you enjoy the show, we would love some more reviews on Apple Music, Spotify, all the places. So just remember that. We appreciate your time and effort with leaving us ratings and reviews. And I think that’s it for this time. We will see you all again in two weeks. Have a great, have a great life. Have a great life. I don’t know. [00:34:10] Rowan: Have a great life. [00:34:12] Lara: But, like, not in a mean way. I mean it. I mean it. It’s a sincere- [00:34:15] Rowan: Have a wonderful- We’re just gonna leave this in. we’re leaving that one in. That’s like... Like, , this is just, complete honesty. I, I love it. let’s just blooper this thing. All right, everyone, thank you for joining us. We’ll see you next time. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe [https://unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

6 mei 2026 - 35 min

42: Heated Rivalry Part 2

The first Heated Rivalry Episode became our most downloaded podcast episode ever - and we know we left you hanging when we only got through 3 of Lara’s 8 topics in the first episode (she had so many notes!) Lace up those skates, because we’re back for a second episode on this megahit of a show. Today we dig into themes like consent, bi representation, and parasocial relationships. Have any other topics you’d like to us to cover? Drop us an email or let us know in the comments. And don’t forget to subscribe on Substack or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Our audience is growing and we’d love to have you join us! Transcript [00:00:00] Rowan: we need to show some grace. To any actor, any artist at all, anybody who has any level of fame, to show them some grace and just let them have a little bit of privacy. Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara. And I’m Rowan. [00:00:38] Lara: And we are back for more Heated Rivalry, which as everyone who has been listening to the show since the beginning of 2026 knows is something I’m all right with. [00:00:50] Rowan: It’s something I’m all right with too. I mean, I wasn’t going to do two episodes on this, but I love the show since you forced me to watch it. [00:00:59] Lara: Which you’re not the only one. I have, we won’t say forced. We will say strongly encouraged to watch the show because I think it’s great. So we did episode one. It’s one of our most listened to most downloaded episodes ever. We clearly have some people who were just out there, searching for Heated Rivalry content, and I am. Thrilled to have you here and hope that you continue to enjoy the takes that we have on our topics. [00:01:28] Rowan: And like, full disclosure, I have let Lara lead this thing, so I once again do not even know what these topics are that we’re talking about today. I said. Surprise me. just lay it on me and,get my full, unfiltered reaction to whatever it is we’re talking about today. [00:01:48] Lara: Yes. So one of the things that I think I heard most from the first episode we did of Heated Rivalry content was that I announced that I had eight points I wanted to cover during our chat. And we got through three and people are like, what are the other five? So you get to hear, more of those five today and we’ll see how many we can cover this time. [00:02:12] Rowan: I’m hoping for all five, but I don’t think we’re gonna get there. I have a feeling that we’re going to have lots to talk about. So, you know, at worst, what we do, a third episode, I’m all right with that. [00:02:23] Lara: And a lot of these topics, as we did in the first one, we’re using Heated Rivalry as a point of context to talk about topics that I think were important to talk about. But then that becomes a little bit more than a conversation just about the show, right? this isn’t just, let’s pick apart . This show or this book, it’s, these are topics that come up and I’m so glad they came up and this is why, and this is, maybe how they did it, but this is why we need to keep talking about that topic because I think it’s important. So yeah, we may or may not get through them all. I also know, we’ve gotten feedback from people. They’re like, Hey, talk more about queer joy. Talk more about, So many different parts we talked about last time, we could go deeper. So who knows what the future will bring. this is not a Heated Rivalry podcast, but you know, if it’s my special interest this year, it’s gonna come up a lot. [00:03:20] Rowan: And boy has it come up a lot. [00:03:23] Lara: Listen, I try not to make it be all I talk about, but it’s relevant. It is relevant to what we do here. So let’s just bring the things I love together. [00:03:35] Rowan: Perfect. Let’s do it. [00:03:36] Lara: So the next point on my list was about consent. [00:03:42] Rowan: Mm. [00:03:43] Lara: In this show they do such a beautiful job of modeling consent, so it’s not like this conversation where it’s like, consent is important. Do you give consent sign on this line? But I think that as people who grew up in the nineties. Consent was not something we talked about. In fact, I feel like the way that I was taught to deal with relationships was to expect to have my feelings, not always taken into consideration to expect people to try to maybe, bulldoze over my consent and to try to figure out how to make sure. That I knew how to set boundaries and say no, and it was my job to know to say no loudly versus the conversations around consent that have come up since then where we talk about the fact that we have the right to say no to anything that is happening to our bodies. And I think that we need to talk about that more. And in the show. Ilya in particular is very good at consistently asking for consent. Like, is this okay? Do you want to do this? Do you like this? Right? they’re not like these heavy questions. It’s just these little check-ins to make sure that moving forward makes sense. And I think modeling that is not something I’ve seen very much. If we can model that and have everybody take that into consideration in life, it’s just gonna be better for people. [00:05:23] Rowan: I think a lot when we talk about consent of that picture from the end of World War ii, and we all know this picture where there is a soldier who’s leaning a woman over and kissing her, and a lot of stories were created around that photo. But my understanding, and I’ve yet to fact check this, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that they did not know each other. That he basically just grabbed her and kissed her, and a photo was taken and this became iconic. And for women especially, and those of us like me, a trans man who were socialized. As girls and women as we were growing up, this was sort of expected that if a man liked you, he would eventually just lean over and kiss you and touch you and yeah. It was your responsibility to tell him no. He would keep going. Until you tell him no. And you had to be very clear about that no. And I first of all, love this new model of asking people if they would like to be kissed. I really don’t like. When older people, and I say older people like me, I really don’t like when older people go, that’s not sexy. It can’t possibly be sexy. And so I applaud Heated Rivalry for having these very erotic, very sexy scenes where consent is a part of it because you are brought right into that scene. It is hot, it is heavy, and consent just in some way just makes it even hotter like It is fantastic how it’s done. I also like that it’s between two men. I like That consent is practiced between two men because a lot of times when we see stories about consent, whether it is asked for and received or not, it is. Around a straight couple. It’ll be a man and a woman, and the man is asking for consent or should be asking for consent, or the woman is pushing him away because he did not have consent. And so this was very cool to see this modeled. I really hope that it changes the conversation around it. [00:07:51] Lara: Yeah. And in the second sexual scene, there is a section where, again, Ilya asks for something Shane isn’t comfortable. Basically says, not this time, and the response is, okay, next time. Right? So it was a very good demonstration of asking. Getting an answer and accepting the answer and moving on. And again, that’s what we need to model. It’s okay to say no. That doesn’t mean everything is terrible, and now the moment is lost. It just means maybe whatever that thing was, we’re not gonna do it today. And I’m okay with that. [00:08:29] Rowan: Yeah, we’re not gonna do it today. Maybe we’re not gonna do whatever. Everybody likes different things. [00:08:33] Lara: [00:08:34] Rowan: It is such a. I wanna use the term wholesome because I think in that moment, even though these, again, these are sex scenes and they’re pretty graphic sex scenes. even in those moments, , there’s this pureness, this real sweetness around consent. Like, it’s like, I’m really into you. I really want you, but I really wanna check in and make sure you’re okay with it. And I don’t know, it just made me really happy as someone who grew up, in the eighties and the nineties, where this was just not a thing. we’re really seeing it now. I mean, obviously we knew things like rape were a thing. we absolutely knew that was wrong, although there were some blurred lines around that too. [00:09:17] Lara: Yeah. [00:09:17] Rowan: but. Seeing that, I don’t know. I just think the youth are okay. The youth are gonna be okay. Gives me a lot of hope for the future. [00:09:26] Lara: Yeah, and I think that something I did with my kids that I think I’m hoping will change some of the conversation and I remember, some of the feedback about something as small as this, which I’ll tell you what it is in a minute, was like, it’s not such a big deal. Why are you making it a big deal? But I think again, it’s. Knowing that you don’t have to accept something that doesn’t feel good to you. So for me, tickling was a big thing, right? So when I was little, there was the whole, somebody would tickle you till you were basically begging for mercy and hoped that begging for mercy would mean that they stopped. [00:10:00] Rowan: Yeah. [00:10:01] Lara: Which. Probably it would, but also maybe it wouldn’t because it was really funny to them. And so,ha ha ha. But to me, and I always said this to my kids. If you don’t want something, say, I do not consent. , You know, I’ve heard kids roughhousing in my house and been like, say I do not consent. And then,I’m just like reinforcing it all the time. I do not consent and, I’ll come in and back you up to the end of the world if you say, I do not want that. We’re done. There’s no ifs, ands, or, but even if you’re playing, even if you’re joking, even if whatever, if they say, I do not want that, we do not do it. And I just don’t think back to the tickling example. no, no, stop. Stop is definitely things people said. About being tickled, but you had to do this whole, like, I’m begging for mercy for you to stop. I don’t know if you experienced this as much, but it’s certainly something I had. and it would be like grandparents or like, itwasn’t just, anybody like, it was really just how I remember people being like, they will tickle you till you throw up, unless you beg them to stop. [00:11:14] Rowan: Yeah, , that did happen to me as well. It was very common. And the other thing that was common that we’re now changing the conversation around is things like, oh, go give your aunt a kiss. She wants a kiss. go. Give your grandpa a hug. He wants a hug. No, no go. You’re gonna make him sad. Go hug your grandpa. Like when you really think about that, what message is that sending that. Somebody else has more control over your body and what you do with it than you do like It sets a very dangerous precedent that this adult can have what they want from me because they want it. And so I was never like that with my children. I always said like, do you want to go give your cousin a hug? No. Okay. Do you wanna wave goodbye then? Alright. Okay. Let’s wave goodbye. There’s always that, when I meet little kids in my coffee shop, and, we share a moment like we, maybe I show them where the books are or like, I’m walking them around. We have a little fairy door in there and I show them the fairy whatever, you know, whatever it is. We have a nice little connection at the end. I say like, , it was really nice to meet you. Do you like to give high fives? Can I have a high five? You know, and ifthey shake their heads, no. I’m like, that’s okay. Thank you so much for coming in. Right. They need to learn. They have control over their own bodies. They can make that decision. It is really creepy to me when I think about. Making young people give hugs, making young people give or accept kisses, making young people sit on someone’s lap when they don’t want to. Right? there’s a lot of stuff that we have done that has perpetuated this anti consent model, and from a very young age it sends all the wrong messages. So yeah, it is really nice to see that. not only are we modeling consent in a lot of shows and movies now, but. The world is so anti LGBT, a lot of the world is right now. And where are we seeing these really healthy relationships? We’re watching it on Heated Rivalry. We’re watching these two people ask and receive and choosing not to give consent whenever they don’t feel comfortable. So not only are we seeing queer joy, we’re seeing healthy relationship models. [00:13:40] Lara: Yeah. And there’s one other section that I wanted to take note of, which is, there’s a part where, again, Ilya asks Shane have you ever done this? And Shane hadn’t. And Ilya says, you’re scared. And Shane gets very defensive, right? Like, I’m not scared. And he says, no, it’s okay. Right? And again. That’s part of a really good conversation just because somebody said something. Just because you’re scared, you know whether or not that means you’re not gonna do it. Whether or not it means you are gonna do it, whether or not it just means more of a conversation. It’s a conversation. It’s okay for you to feel how you feel. That’s not a problem. I hear you. I see you. Let’s figure out what comes next. Not, ugh. [00:14:28] Rowan: Come on. Yeah. Yeah. I was in those situations sometimes, right? chose not to give consent to take things further. And in those situations it was , with men, with boys at the time. Yeah. Like teenage boys, you know, ‘cause we were young. and they would take it so personally. Like, oh, what? What? Like, we just had such a nice day, like I was really into you, or whatever it might be. Right. And and we need to teach everyone, but especially our sons not to behave that way. I think that’s getting better too. But when you see Ilya just Really accept that it is all right, that Shane doesn’t want to do something and dig deeper about what his fears might be. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful and especially contrasted with his very. Rough exterior. You know, hehe’s a little gruff. He’s very direct. trying to find the right words for it. But, you know, , he’s stoic. He doesn’t show a lot of emotion for a lot of the show. And so to see those gentler moments, I think models a healthy masculinity. [00:15:52] Lara: I agree. Which leads me to my next point around the actors. So Connor Storrie and Hudson Williams are the actors who play Ilya and Shane. And I think that, this is not about the show, but it is about the show that these two men are really good examples of healthy masculinity like they are. Comfortable being friends and still being affectionate with each other. They are just examples of men that are not what we’ve often seen, and I think that they’re emotionally open, they’re physically open, and teaching men, teaching people that that’s okay. Is another nice. Example, it’s another good modeling that is out there, and I have found that to be very interesting to watch. I know not everybody who watches the show, watches all the edits and the extra interviews and so on, but, I have, and it’s been amazing to watch. I really find it fascinating including that they are setting really strong boundaries. Based on their fame and saying this is what I’m okay with and this is what I’m not okay with and this is how I’m gonna deal with it. And they’re not being, aggressive in any way, but they are being themselves and not changing who they are and taking care of themselves. [00:17:20] Rowan: So to your first point in case. You’ve never heard us before and do not know what I do for a living. I currently own a coffee shop and I’m there, all day, every day, most days. it’s in the heart of the gay village, the queer village here in Toronto. And so a lot of queer people come in and what I love, one of the things that I love. Is that when two men or male presenting people come in, I often can’t tell if they are a couple or if they’re friends because a lot of queer men and queer masculine people. Just show affection to each other without all those toxic masculinity behaviors where like, you can’t reach over and hold his hand. If he’s going through something, you can’t like rub his. Shoulder, his arm if he’s ha like there’s a warmth to the relationship and so it’s none of my business what the relationship is, but I just, sometimes they share with me how they know each other. Sometimes they’re friends. Sometimes they’re partners, they’re just, it’s various things, but it’s lovely. It’s lovely. And yeah, and seeing that , in the interviews between the two actors, I can guarantee I have not watched as many as you have, Lara. But, but it is really nice to see. and as for the boundary setting. Somebody gave me advice really early on when I was first, starting to appear in media when I was first writing a book. , you know, , , when a lot of eyes were on me and my family and they said, you are in control of your own story. You get to tell as much or as little of it as you’d like. That’s your story, your narrative, and I’ve held onto that the entire time. So sometimes people will come in, you know, to the shop or just run into me on the street or come to an event that I’m at or whatever, and they’ll say. I feel like I know you. I get that a lot actually. I feel like I know you is something that most people will say on this. I say like, it’s 75% of the people that meet me for the first time because I do share a lot of things about myself. [00:19:37] Rowan: But there are things I don’t share at all that are very private to me, that are private to my family, that are sacred that I hold onto. So they do know parts of me. That’s true. And who I am is very present in what I bring to the table. I would say I’m a pretty authentic person, but I love that more and more celebrities, people far more famous than I am. Like, I’m like maybe at best of micro celeb, right? Like people who have worldwide fame are doing so without. Giving away the parts of themselves that they don’t want to, for the sake of fame, for getting an article published that wouldn’t get published, that they didn’t reveal this about themselves or that about themselves. They’re just like, no, I’m not doing that. And they’re putting their job first. I’m an actor. You can know a little bit about me, but you’re not gonna know everything about me because. I need to have a private life. I need to have boundaries. So it goes back to the whole consent thing again, right? It’s all about those boundaries and about choosing what it is that you want to bring forward and what it is you want to keep to yourself, whether it is your body, information about yourself, whatever. So, again, I can’t imagine. Rocketing to fame at a young age, the way these two actors have? just from being not very well known, still working other jobs, you know, working actors, very much like working other things. and going from that to being two of the most famous people in the world. And I think they’re handling it at least from the outside very well. [00:21:19] Lara: Yeah, and I think. It used to be that the expectation was famous, people couldn’t have privacy. I know, Chappell Roan is a good example of somebody who was like, I am not okay with how some of the fans are behaving with me. And a lot of people were like, why are you so ungrateful? And I think. That it’s so important to understand. These are human beings. They do not need to give you anything. You are not entitled to anything. And I don’t think the folks listening to this podcast are probably thinking they are, but I just think, again, it’s another good reminder that people get to decide what they’re okay with. And. We accept what they decide even if we don’t always love it. You know Connor Storrie has pretty much taken off his social media presence. So unless it is some kind of a brand deal or an official announcement, he’s not doing it anymore. Do I wish he was still putting out what he was putting out before? Yeah, it would be fun to watch, but that’s not up to me. End of story. [00:22:25] Rowan: he has to preserve his wellbeing in all of this. [00:22:29] Lara: Yeah. [00:22:29] Rowan: we have seen what happens when celebrities get overwhelmed with the expectations that are placed upon them. and we’ve lost a lot of people, quite young who had a very difficult time handling that. And I don’t mean handling, Going to work as an actor or singing, or performing in some way. I mean, all of the other things. Having not a lick of privacy, having everything about your life tracked, having people obsessed with you. And I’ve always wondered why we do that, right? Because I can really deeply appreciate somebody’s, Work. Somebody’s talent, somebody’s music, somebody’s acting skills, and I can just leave it there. I’ve always been able to just leave it there and go, yeah, I really like that. but without naming anybody. We had a very famous person come into the shop recently,very, very, very famous, and we acted like we didn’t even know this person, and we just served them their food and they sat down and they did their thing for a little bit all by themselves, and every single other person in our shop left them alone too, by the way. And I think they had a really nice time because they came back the next day and did it again. And then they left. Right. And I will never disclose who that person was and I would never, even if they came in, ask them for a selfie or anything else. I love. That they chose this space to come in, and I love that they were able to feel safe for a little while and away from whatever it was that they were doing and leave. I think that’s amazing. Like, everyone deserves that. Celebrities get very, very, very little of it. [00:24:23] Lara: Yeah. It’s the whole parasocial relationship, which can mean that people feel entitled. It can also be things like, you know, oh, I’m worrying. I’m worrying about them. because like this is so much for them to take on. But then again, it’s not like I don’t know them. It is not my responsibility to go out there and try to protect them. Like,I think people take on these relationships that don’t exist and it starts to feel like a relationship that does exist and that’s dangerous, and that’s why. there are some very famous people, like you said, who are no longer with us. We’ve seen it with some of the boy bands, with people who’ve fallen into addiction and not made it right. Like , there has been a death in the last couple years. That was a really big one. and I think that part of that is not being able to handle the fame, not being able to handle the pressure, not being able to handle. people giving you drugs and the party culture and not being able to handle all of it until life just isn’t, like, just being rich and famous is not a great life. If all these other things are pressuring you and making you feel like crap and you’re, constantly being tempted by things like, it’s a lot. [00:25:35] Rowan: I had my own very small version of that where I got well known in my specific field for the specific work I do, and everyone wanted to talk to me and I had Hundreds of thousands of followers across social media platforms, and I was booked solid for engagements. I had a number one bestselling book, and I was like, okay, yeah, I made it. Look at me. I did it. Wow. And I felt so empty because everyone tells you that, that. Is what success should be. Society teaches you that if you get to this level of whatever it is, success, stardom, et cetera, it will somehow fix what’s inside of you. Right? But I wasn’t content enough in where I was with myself and so.You start to realize that in that space, everybody just wants something from you and you can’t trust anyone because some people are genuinely great and some people just want to use you. It is a very lonely place to be. So I think from my very limited standpoint on that, that we need to show some grace. To any actor, any artist at all, anybody who has any level of fame, to show them some grace and just let them have a little bit of privacy. Now, I say this and some people who make the trip in to Understory to say hi to me are gonna be like, oh, Rowan doesn’t wanna talk to me. No, no, no. I love that though. If I didn’t love that, I wouldn’t have a coffee shop where you can just come in and talk to me. Yeah, that’s totally different. and, sometimes people want a picture and that’s cool too. Look, I think that’s lovely , you know, but I’m talking about the people who. We’re in a TV show or a movie or something and never get a moment’s piece, They can’t go to the grocery store, they can’t go have dinner, they can’t go to the park with their dog or their kid. they just never get a moment. That’s different. I do think that just remembering the humanity in absolutely everyone. I say this all the time, I’m gonna say it until people are sick of it. Remembering the humanity in everyone is crucial. [00:28:04] Lara: Yeah, absolutely. All right. will do at least one more. So I’ve talked about, representation. In the first episode, we talked about the representation that I saw of like good humans, right? And we had a few examples with the parents and the allies. But the other one that I really thought, or the other ones that I thought were really. Good in this show is, and some of them are named and some of them are not named. So for example, Ilya is bisexual, and I think bisexual representation is important and we can dig further into that. Shane is autistic. This never comes up in the show, but if you’re watching and you think, wow, some of these quirks seem a bit. Spectrum. It has been confirmed by the author and Hudson played it that way. Jacob Tierney agreed with it, like it was absolutely a decision that they accepted and played into it. Shane is on the spectrum, and there’s also one of the actors who is trans. In the show. So these are, again, more representations I think are important. Like the more we see it, the more we see somebody who has some of these traits that we might’ve thought of as kind of quirky, but we normalize it. So the autism stuff, I think it’s good. I think talking about bisexuality, because there’s a lot of people who feel like bisexuality. Isn’t a thing, right? So either, if it’s a man who says they’re bisexual, they’re secretly actually gay, or if it’s a woman saying they’re bisexual, it’s actually just like a phase, right? Like people really like to pretend it’s not possible for somebody to be bisexual. And the more we talk about it and the more people are like, no, I’m bi, I think. that’s a good thing. So those were a few of the examples that I thought were really good to see there. Again, [00:30:07] Rowan: well representation. Hello, I’m bisexual. So there we go. , More of that for everyone. I loved that they didn’t discuss Ilya’s sexuality until a lot later in the show. I can’t remember exactly when it was, but it just came up in a conversation and he mentions it and that’s it. And then it just, , in relation to Shane’s sexuality and then it’s kind of done. [00:30:34] Lara: say it’s interesting because in the books, Ilya is in all of the books and there are times where he’ll meet somebody and they’re like, oh, I’m bisexual. He’s bisexual. Me too, right? it’s I’m so happy other people are talking about this. It’s a thing, right? Look at me. I am telling you I am bi. and it’s not like he’s super open about it, but it comes up and you can see. there’s almost like a,a feeling in it. Like, I don’t get to see this very much because people don’t talk about being bi. Yay. Good for you for saying it. Like, there’s that, that comes up in some of the other books. So I I know that’s not in the show, but it does come up in the books, which I think is good. [00:31:10] Rowan: Yeah, I love that. I love that one of the things that has frustrated me more recently is every pride season I see discourse on the internet about, you know, no straights at Pride, no straight couples at Pride. I’m like, first of all, everyone should be able to come to Pride also. You have straight couples, first of all, that are, say a trans man and a trans woman, what they shouldn’t be at Pride. Or you’ll have a seemingly straight couple walking down the street, but they’re both bisexual or one of them is bi , or pan and they just happen to be together. Just happens to be, a hetero relationship. I think. Bi-erasure is very painful to a lot of bisexual people. It is mocked. Even within the community, sometimes it is still seen, even within the community, sometimes as being less than, or someone who just hasn’t fully come out yet. Someone who is just, yeah, was just going through a phase, just having a little fun before they settle down in the burbs and have a bunch of kids and it’s ugly, right? It’s like when we already have so much hate lobbed at us. It doesn’t need to be coming from inside the house. So I’m glad that there was bi representation. I’m glad that they played it well. I’m glad to see that autism was represented. I think that’s really nice in the sense that it wasn’t a whole story arc that he’s autistic. It’s just. Part of who he is. And, Harrison Brown, who is the trans man, Harrison and I, go back a little bit. We did a talk together, a year or two ago , and that’s where I met him for the first time. But Harrison is fantastic and I just love that, he was just like another hockey player, like they just decided. we’re gonna put a trans dude as a hockey player. that’s amazing. and I actually know until I watched the show and I was like, Hey, I know this person. Oh, that’s so fun. Right. and those subtle inclusions where it’s. There just happens to be another guy in the locker room, right? Just another hockey player. Having these conversations, those subtle acts of inclusion are just as important as the more overt acts of inclusion. Those subtle acts of, I think just noticing that somebody is maybe behaving in a way that is more neurodivergent, but it’s not overtly spoken of. Just, I think, allows for more acceptance of, neurodivergent, I don’t wanna say behaviors, I think that might not be the right word, like things that happen, like maybe some of the, , extra overwhelm, whatever is going on. creates more acceptance of society in general and I just, I think it’s great. I think they did such a good job. [00:34:09] Lara: Yeah. one of the examples in the very first episode that you see a quirk is when Shane folds his clothes as he’s getting undressed. So he is getting undressed and he like folds his pants and puts them down and folds his shirt and puts it down instead of just like getting undressed. And the response from Ilya is to like. Grin and like, that’s a funny little quirk you’ve got, but not in a, like, what are you doing? Like, oh, that’s a funny thing that you’re doing. It’s cute and I love it. Like it’s the response That it feels like you get and yeah, it’s just, Being very much these are my safe foods. I don’t eat this, I do this. there’s some like rigidity, around food. And again, it’s just like a little bit in there. And I think having that representation in all three of those examples I gave you without it being overt is important. It’s just normal. [00:35:02] Rowan: yeah, it’s a spectrum too, right? [00:35:05] Lara: Mm-hmm. [00:35:05] Rowan: Like, I have a child who, is autistic and I did the same test myself, that the psychologist gave my child and I scored, definitely way too low. To be autistic, but there were some things about me that were higher up. Food texture, being one of them. Food textures are so bad for me. Some of them like, don’t even get me started on mushrooms or, noise because of my synesthesia. so really noisy environments can be very exhausting for me. So things like that. And yeah, so it creates this acceptance for everybody. Who is a little neurodivergent? I just, I’m making lots of smiley faces right now because it just really became a show about inclusion in so many more ways than these two hockey rivals who to be into each other. [00:36:03] Lara: Yeah, for sure. I think there’s just one last one that I think we’ll cover because it kind of associates with that , it, it’s the validating of feelings, right? So we talked about that a little bit already, but there’s, you know, like a couple crash outs, right? so in the very last episode again I mean, we’ve talked about the fact that there are some spoilers as we’re talking, but in the very last episode, there’s a scene where Shane is crashing out. Like, oh my God, this is my nightmare. This is the scariest thing I’ve ever dealt with, and I. Apparently when that scene was being filmed, Hudson who plays Shane, played it in a way that Jacob Tierney, who was the director, was like, that’s a bit much like you seem to be going over the top with this, but I’m gonna let you like, get through it and whatnot. And then later when it was being edited, people were like, this is really good, right? this is how some people will crash out. Maybe not everybody would crash out in such a like. This is the end of the world kind of way. But some will. so number one, yeah, like that is a way some people react. So we’ve seen that, right? Like a big crash out. But then the response is like, yeah, this is scary. So there’s a line I love, because Shane says, I’m so scared and Ilya says. Yes, it’s scary, but you’re brave. And Shane says, shut up. First of all, the shut up was so relatable to me because if somebody told me I was brave, I would be like, shut up. Don’t try to make me feel better. Don’t tell me I’m brave. That is not helpful. But Ilya’s like, no, you’re brave. And just hugs him. And that is a way to just support somebody, validate them and help them regulate their emotions in a time when they’re not able to do it themselves. And it was just another good modeling. It’s not, the only time it happens, but it’s like, Hey, you’re freaking out. It’s okay. I’m here. You’re not alone. Feel my energy bringing you back down. We’re okay here, and I really loved to see that. [00:38:13] Rowan: This warms my Gen X heart, because a lot of us were basically just taught to stuff our feelings down. That we need to suck it up. how many times were you told to suck it up? Because I was told a ton. [00:38:26] Lara: Yeah. Suck it up. Or just it’s not a big deal. Right. It’s the whole, you’re okay. You’re okay. Don’t worry about it. Don’t worry about it. Like, you’re fine. Versus. You’re scared and that’s okay. And we can get through it and we will be all right. But not because I’m telling you, you shouldn’t be scared, but because I’m telling you it’s okay that you’re scared. [00:38:47] Rowan: Yeah. one is very much about like, don’t cry, don’t cry. don’t freak out, don’t do that. And the other is. Yes, of course you’re going to cry right now. Of course you’re freaking out right now. That’s understandable. And we’re gonna get through it. it’s the behavior, the support that we see between these two characters is really, I think I’ve used this term lovely like 50 times in this recording, but it is lovely, lovely is the right term. beautiful. it’s healing in a way to see, again, not only queer representation to that level, but queer representation that is healthy. It’s great. [00:39:31] Lara: Yeah, and you know, acknowledging the fact that it wasn’t always healthy. These folks had a, nine year situationship with a lot of miscommunication. But seeing some of that turn around, seeing some of these examples of how you can deal with things in a really great way, I think it was just, it was different, right? Like, I just think what I liked about this show is that it was real. Kinds of scenarios I’ve encountered. Maybe I wasn’t in exactly that encountered, but I’ve been scared. I’ve been angry when somebody tried to make me feel better. I’ve been, really grateful of somebody supporting me. Like, all of these things are true things that happen and people are complicated and people have feelings that they’re allowed to have. And all of that just being represented I think was really great. [00:40:20] Rowan: It was really great. [00:40:21] Lara: So we’ve mostly covered, there’s a couple more points that we haven’t covered. One of them is around hockey culture, which I don’t really feel like I have a lot to say anyway. But I do think it was good that it was covered. I think that if somebody else was gonna have a conversation to talk about that more in depth, it would be great. I just think that. That was one of them. But mostly we’ve covered my points and I think I could talk about this forever as everybody now gets, but I think it’s in that sphere of I love that we can have these conversations. It’s not just a Heated Rivalry. let’s pick it apart for the sake of. A fandom, but I think that there were some really good topics in there. So I hope people enjoyed this conversation. If there’s more people wanna talk about, let us know. I think, again, it’s not a podcast about Heated Rivalry, so we’re not gonna talk about it in every episode, but there is room to keep talking about stuff, and if anybody like the author or the director, or any of the actors wants to come on our show. Please let us know because you are invited. [00:41:29] Rowan: Yeah, and if you come to my coffee shop, I’ll just act like I don’t know you [00:41:33] Lara: unless you, say that you want to be acknowledged. So just make sure you say hi. [00:41:37] Rowan: yeah, give consent. If you give consent, we’ll take a selfie and I’ll tell you that I adore you and that Lara’s hopping in the car and driving here right now. Can you please hang out for five hours? But [00:41:48] Lara: yeah, I’ll be right there. [00:41:49] Rowan: yeah. It’s fine. It’s fine. truly this has been great and I am very much looking forward to our next episode, which will not be about Heated Rivalry, but I’m sure this is gonna come back up. [00:42:02] Lara: Yeah. Because there’s gonna be a season two. [00:42:05] Rowan: I have heard rumors that they might film parts of season two. Right around where I work, [00:42:13] Lara: and they might film some of season two in Ottawa. [00:42:17] Rowan: Ooh, okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well.I know someone who’s gonna be scouting out locations. It’s not me. I’m too busy serving coffee [00:42:27] Lara: maybe. I also don’t like to leave my house a ton, so it may just be that I still look at it online. But again, if anybody’s listening and you need a 50-year-old lady who is an ally as an extra, please feel free to reach out. [00:42:40] Rowan: Thank you so much for joining us today. We’ll see you next time. [00:42:45] Lara: All right. Thank you, and please do come and give us your feedback on our substack. We wanna hear what you think. We’ll see you in two weeks. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe [https://unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

8 apr 2026 - 43 min