Stewart Hirsch: How Lawyers Win More Clients by Being Human, Not By Being “Salesy”

Shawn Kerendian: From Busy Litigator to Law Firm Architect with EOS and OKRs

What happens when a probate litigator stops chasing every matter and starts designing a firm that can grow without them? In this episode, you’ll hear how Shawn Kerendian scaled a niche trust and estate litigation practice by saying no to the wrong work, obsessing over infrastructure, and using EOS, OKRs, and tech to build a truly scalable law firm.   In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Shawn Kerendian discuss: * Choosing a narrow niche in trust and estate litigation * Protecting capacity to pursue business development and opportunities * Scaling from 20 to 40+ people and rebuilding firm infrastructure * Implementing EOS, OKRs, and KPIs as a single operating system * Tech stack, AI experimentation, and branding for talent and referrals   Key Takeaways: * Protecting time and capacity—rather than maximizing short-term billables—creates room to pursue the opportunities that actually grow a firm. * Committing to a narrow niche makes it easier to become the go‑to expert, generate referrals, and collaborate with other specialists. * Rapid headcount growth without parallel investment in management, systems, and infrastructure eventually exposes serious strain on both clients and employees. * Running on a single operating system with clear objectives, key results, and KPIs turns firm management from reactive chaos into a predictable rhythm. * The biggest hiring risk isn’t moving too slowly—it’s bringing in the wrong people, which can damage culture, client service, and the morale of everyone who stays.   "The biggest mistake was chasing growth without worrying about the right people or the right fit." — Shawn Kerendian   Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.   Join the Be That Lawyer Community [https://fretzin.com/community/?utm_source=chatgpt.com] and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers.   Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org [https://www.pimcon.org/]/   Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer [https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer] Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ [https://rankings.io/] Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ [https://www.lawyer.com/]   Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ [https://fretzin.com/]   About Shawn Kerendian: Shawn Kerendian is a probate litigator and the founder and Managing Partner of Keystone Law Group, P.C. He specializes in trust, estate, and conservatorship litigation, representing trustees, beneficiaries, and heirs in complex probate disputes. By narrowing his firm's focus exclusively to probate litigation, Kerendian scaled Keystone Law Group into a premier niche practice while implementing modern business frameworks—such as EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating System), OKRs, and business intelligence tech—to streamline operations, law firm management, and sustainable team growth.   Connect with Shawn Kerendian: Website: https://keystone-law.com/firm/attorneys/shawn-s-kerendian [https://keystone-law.com/firm/attorneys/shawn-s-kerendian] LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-kerendian-0b88ab16/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-kerendian-0b88ab16/]   Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevefretzin/] Twitter: @stevefretzin [https://twitter.com/stevefretzin] Instagram: @fretzinsteve [https://www.instagram.com/fretzinsteve/] Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. [https://www.facebook.com/fretzinsteve] Website: Fretzin.com [https://fretzin.com/] Email: Steve@Fretzin.com [Steve@Fretzin.com] Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science [https://www.fretzin.com/about/books/] and more! [https://fretzin.com/about/books/] YouTube: Steve Fretzin [https://www.youtube.com/user/SalesResultsInc] Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. [https://www.turnkeypodcast.com/] You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

Stewart Hirsch: How Lawyers Win More Clients by Being Human, Not By Being “Salesy”

What if your biggest business-development advantage wasn’t your legal skill, but how you make people feel? In this episode, you’ll hear how a former big-firm lawyer turned coach built a decades-long career helping attorneys grow their books by leading with listening, caring, and genuine relationships.   In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Stewart Hirsch discuss: * Why “how you make people feel” drives business development * Lessons from watching a non-lawyer sell through listening and care * Stuart’s journey from law firm associate to in-house to full-time coach * Shifting from marketing to true business development in law firms * Practical habits: following up, setting next steps, and thinking like in-house counsel   Key Takeaways: * Technical excellence is now table stakes; the differentiator is how you treat people and how you make them feel in every interaction. * Deep, genuine listening often outperforms sophisticated “pitches” when it comes to earning trust and long-term business. * Careers can pivot powerfully when you follow the work that energizes you, even if it means turning down “dream” jobs that would pull you off your path. * Consistent follow-up and always setting clear next steps are two of the most reliable habits for building a strong book of business. * To serve in-house clients effectively, outside counsel need to think like business decision-makers, not just risk-spotters, and offer practical, directional advice.   "Start with the attitude of caring and curiosity." —  Stewart Hirsch   Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.   Join the Be That Lawyer Community [https://fretzin.com/community/?utm_source=chatgpt.com] and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers.   Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org [https://www.pimcon.org/]/   Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer [https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer] Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ [https://rankings.io/] Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ [https://www.lawyer.com/]   Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ [https://fretzin.com/]   About Stewart Hirsch: Stewart Hirsch, Esq. is the Managing Director of Strategic Relationships, LLC, where he serves as an executive leadership and business development coach, consultant, and facilitator. Drawing on over 20 years of experience practicing law—both in-house at major corporations like Staples, TJX, and Welch's, as well as in private practice—he helps lawyers, C-suite executives, and professional services leaders build high-impact client relationships, navigate complex communications, and accelerate career growth. Recognized as a top business development coach by Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly, Stewart also acts as a Senior Coach for Trusted Advisor Associates, designs interactive corporate workshops, and serves as a career coach for members of the Association of Corporate Counsel.   Connect with Stewart Hirsch:   Website: https://strategicrelationships.com/ [https://strategicrelationships.com/] LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stewarthirsch/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/stewarthirsch/]   Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevefretzin/] Twitter: @stevefretzin [https://twitter.com/stevefretzin] Instagram: @fretzinsteve [https://www.instagram.com/fretzinsteve/] Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. [https://www.facebook.com/fretzinsteve] Website: Fretzin.com [https://fretzin.com/] Email: Steve@Fretzin.com [Steve@Fretzin.com] Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science [https://www.fretzin.com/about/books/] and more! [https://fretzin.com/about/books/] YouTube: Steve Fretzin [https://www.youtube.com/user/SalesResultsInc] Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. [https://www.turnkeypodcast.com/] You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

Randi Cohen: Building a Rainmaking Practice Through Authentic Relationships

Discover how an employment lawyer built a seven-figure practice not by “working the room,” but by being radically authentic, hyper-generous, and unforgettable in her relationships. This episode breaks down how to turn clients, competitors, and even adversaries into your most loyal referral sources.   In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Randi Cohen discuss: * Non-traditional path from prosecutor to employment law partner * Forming and growing a boutique firm through partnership * Authentic, curiosity-driven networking (not “working the room”) * Turning clients, competitors, and adversaries into referral sources * Overcoming imposter syndrome and trusting your own skills   Key Takeaways: * Business development becomes much easier when you stop “networking” and instead focus on being genuinely curious about people’s lives, needs, and goals. * Long-term success often comes from leading with generosity—connecting others, sharing referrals, and helping even when there’s nothing immediate in it for you. * The most valuable relationships are built over time through repeated touchpoints, shared experiences, and small acts of follow-up and care. * How you handle billing and money can either cement trust or destroy it; protecting relationships is far more valuable than squeezing every last 0.2 from a time entry. * Confidence is often forged in scary, high-stakes cases—learning to push through imposter syndrome and rely on your preparation and judgment is a pivotal professional shift.   "My entire approach to networking is not to think of it as networking. It's just authenticity." —  Randi Cohen   Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.   Join the Be That Lawyer Community [https://fretzin.com/community/?utm_source=chatgpt.com] and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers.   Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org [https://www.pimcon.org/]/   Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer [https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer] Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ [https://rankings.io/] Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ [https://www.lawyer.com/]   Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ [https://fretzin.com/]   About Randi Cohen: Randi M. Cohen, Esq. is a labor and employment counselor and litigator at Kalmanson Cohen PLLC with nearly 20 years of experience representing individuals and businesses. Focused on practical, personalized problem-solving, she specializes in resolving workplace issues through strategic counseling and negotiation, while maintaining a formidable litigation practice in federal, state, and administrative tribunals across New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania when necessary. Widely sought after by small-to-medium businesses and individuals alike, Randi is an active author and member of the American Bar Association and the New York City Bar Association. Recognized as a New York Metro Super Lawyer, she holds a J.D., cum laude, from New York Law School and a B.A. from Muhlenberg College.   Connect with Randi Cohen:  Website: https://kalmansoncohen.com/ [https://kalmansoncohen.com/] LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randimcohen-employmentlawyer/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/randimcohen-employmentlawyer/]   Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevefretzin/] Twitter: @stevefretzin [https://twitter.com/stevefretzin] Instagram: @fretzinsteve [https://www.instagram.com/fretzinsteve/] Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. [https://www.facebook.com/fretzinsteve] Website: Fretzin.com [https://fretzin.com/] Email: Steve@Fretzin.com [Steve@Fretzin.com] Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science [https://www.fretzin.com/about/books/] and more! [https://fretzin.com/about/books/] YouTube: Steve Fretzin [https://www.youtube.com/user/SalesResultsInc] Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. [https://www.turnkeypodcast.com/] You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

Brett Trembly: Spend to Grow, Not Save to Spend in Your Law Firm

What’s really holding your law firm back isn’t a lack of leads—it’s how you spend your time and handle the ones you already have. In this episode, you’ll learn how smart hiring, offshore staffing, and a professional intake process can free you from $10-an-hour tasks and unlock real, sustainable growth.   In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brett Trembly discuss: * Mindset shift from saving to spending for growth * Early-stage law firm struggles and first key hires * Offshore staffing in Latin America and founding Get Staffed Up * Broken intake systems and the client’s first experience with a firm * Delegation, KPIs, and freeing managing partners from billable work   Key Takeaways: * Clinging to a “safe” bank balance before hiring often traps owners in low-value tasks and slows growth dramatically. * Hiring support—especially before you feel fully ready—is usually the only way to stop doing admin work and start focusing on higher-value activities. * Law firms frequently don’t need more marketing; they need to fix intake and conversion so leads actually become clients. * A professional, structured intake process signals competence, builds trust, and can transform the client’s experience from chaotic to “white glove.” * Using KPIs, scorecards, and results-focused metrics is more effective than obsessing over every minute your remote or salaried team members work.   "Doing all the little things yourself prevents you from ever building up your money." — Brett Trembly   Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.   Join the Be That Lawyer Community [https://fretzin.com/community/?utm_source=chatgpt.com] and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers.   Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org [https://www.pimcon.org/]/   Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer [https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer] Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ [https://rankings.io/] Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ [https://www.lawyer.com/]   Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ [https://fretzin.com/]   About Brett Trembly: Brett Trembly, Esq., is the founding partner of Trembly Law Firm in Miami, Florida, where he focuses on business law, franchise law, and commercial litigation under the firm's mission of "Protecting the Economy, One Business at a Time." He earned his Bachelor of Arts in Communication from Eastern New Mexico University in 2005 and his Juris Doctor from the University of Miami School of Law in 2008. In addition to managing his legal practice, Trembly co-founded Get Staffed Up, a virtual staffing company that provides offshore support personnel to law firms across North America, and authored books on business growth including 24 Months to Freedom and The Danger Zones. Active in the South Florida legal community, he has served as President of the Miami Kendall Bar Association and Vice-Chair of the Florida Bar 11th Circuit Grievance Committee, earning recognition as a Florida Super Lawyer and an Inc. 5000 honoree.   Connect with Brett Trembly:  Website: https://tremblylaw.com/ [https://tremblylaw.com/] LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bretttrembly/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/bretttrembly/]   Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevefretzin/] Twitter: @stevefretzin [https://twitter.com/stevefretzin] Instagram: @fretzinsteve [https://www.instagram.com/fretzinsteve/] Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. [https://www.facebook.com/fretzinsteve] Website: Fretzin.com [https://fretzin.com/] Email: Steve@Fretzin.com [Steve@Fretzin.com] Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science [https://www.fretzin.com/about/books/] and more! [https://fretzin.com/about/books/] YouTube: Steve Fretzin [https://www.youtube.com/user/SalesResultsInc] Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. [https://www.turnkeypodcast.com/] You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

Elliot Johnson: Addition by Subtraction in Law Firm Marketing

When everyone’s chasing the latest shiny marketing tactic, what does it look like to grow a law firm by doing less but better? In this episode, Elliot Johnson shares how “addition by subtraction,” disciplined strategy, and deep content can transform both your firm’s brand and your client experience.   In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Elliot Johnson discuss: * Addition by subtraction and prioritization in marketing * Career journey into legal marketing and CMO role * Jujitsu as a framework for leadership, patience, and strategy * Personal branding for lawyers vs. firm branding * Content, SEO, AI, and aligning marketing with client experience   Key Takeaways: * Focusing on a small number of high-impact initiatives—and cutting everything else—is often the fastest path to meaningful growth. * Mastery in any discipline, whether jujitsu or marketing, comes from deliberate fundamentals, patience, and long-term commitment rather than quick wins. * Lawyers who intentionally build personal brands online give clients confidence, create future career options, and support their firm’s broader marketing efforts. * Aligning your external marketing promises with a genuinely strong client experience is essential for generating trust, five-star reviews, and referrals. * Strategic, expert-driven content now serves not only human readers but also AI and search engines, making it a crucial long-term investment for any law firm.   "We want them to be able to confidently recommend us." —  Elliot Johnson   Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again.   Join the Be That Lawyer Community [https://fretzin.com/community/?utm_source=chatgpt.com] and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers.   Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org [https://www.pimcon.org/]/   Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer [https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer] Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ [https://rankings.io/] Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ [https://www.lawyer.com/]   Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ [https://fretzin.com/]   About Elliot Johnson: Elliot Johnson is the Chief Marketing Officer of Angel Reyes & Associates, one of Texas’s fastest-growing personal injury law firms — and one of the few in the industry to build a truly world-class SEO and paid media operation entirely in-house. Where most firms outsource their digital marketing and hope for the best, Elliot has assembled and developed an elite internal team spanning paid search, SEO, content, local search, digital PR, and lead generation — with a hard focus on attribution, ROI, and performance that can be defended in a boardroom. His operating philosophy is AI-first and data-obsessed, built for a marketing landscape that is changing faster than most teams can keep up with. When he’s not optimizing campaigns or debating LLMs, Elliot is a professor of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and a cinephile with a watchlist that never gets shorter.   Connect with Elliot Johnson:  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elliotjohnsonks/ [https://www.linkedin.com/in/elliotjohnsonks/]   Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevefretzin/] Twitter: @stevefretzin [https://twitter.com/stevefretzin] Instagram: @fretzinsteve [https://www.instagram.com/fretzinsteve/] Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. [https://www.facebook.com/fretzinsteve] Website: Fretzin.com [https://fretzin.com/] Email: Steve@Fretzin.com [Steve@Fretzin.com] Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science [https://www.fretzin.com/about/books/] and more! [https://fretzin.com/about/books/] YouTube: Steve Fretzin [https://www.youtube.com/user/SalesResultsInc] Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. [https://www.turnkeypodcast.com/] You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.