THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST

Lt. Col. Nichole Ayers ’11 - When Dreams Take Flight

From combat missions in the F-22 Raptor to more than five months aboard the International Space Station, Lt. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers ’11 has seen it all. SUMMARY In this episode of Long Blue Leadership, Col. Ayers reflects on mentorship, teamwork and building the next generation of warriors and astronauts.   SHARE THIS EPISODE LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/lt-col-nicole-ayers-11-when-dreams-take-flight/?token=76e6cd7468714bd59733de6d164579c4]  |  FACEBOOK [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/lt-col-nicole-ayers-11-when-dreams-take-flight/?token=76e6cd7468714bd59733de6d164579c4]     TOP 10 TAKEAWAYS 1. Leadership is fluid: sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow. On Dragon and the ISS, command shifted between Anne McClain and Takuya Onishi. Everyone alternated between being commander and flight engineer, showing that strong teams normalize moving between leading and supporting roles. 2. Team care starts with self‑care. Vapor repeatedly links sleep, rest, hydration, and health to leadership performance. You can’t be present for others if you’re exhausted or burned out; taking care of yourself is a leadership duty, not a luxury. 3. People first, mission second (to enable mission success). Whether on deployment with 300 personnel or in space with 7, she focuses on taking care of the human—family issues, logistics, burnout, and emotions—trusting that performance and mission execution follow from that. 4. Trust is built long before the crisis. ISS emergency training with all seven crew, plus years of joint training in multiple countries, builds shared understanding and trust. When emergencies happen, the crew isn’t figuring each other out for the first time. 5. Quiet, thoughtful leadership can be incredibly powerful. Takuya Onishi’s style—observant, calm, speaks only when it matters, and brings thoughtful items for others—shows that you don’t need to be loud to command respect. When he spoke, everyone listened. 6. Leadership means being fully present, especially on others’ hard days. In both combat and space, you can’t “hide” when someone’s struggling. Being reachable, attentive, and emotionally available is a core leadership behavior, not a soft add‑on. 7. Normalize mistakes and share lessons learned. From F‑22 sorties to NASA operations, it’s expected that you openly admit errors and pass on lessons so others don’t repeat them. A culture where “experience is what you get right after you need it” only works if people share that experience. 8. Plan for “seasons” of intensity, not permanent balance. She frames life as seasons: some are sprints (deployments, intense training, big trips); others are for recovery. Wise leaders anticipate these cycles, push hard when needed, then deliberately create room to reset afterward. 9. Model the behavior you want your team to adopt. If the commander is always first in, last out, everyone else feels pressure to match that. By visibly protecting her own rest and home life, she gives permission for others to do the same and avoid burnout. 10. Lean on—and be—a support system. Her twin sister, long‑term friends, and professional peers form a lifelong support network she turns to when she fails, doubts herself, or hits something “insurmountable.” Great leaders both rely on and serve as those trusted people for others.     CHAPTERS 0:00:00 – Introduction & Vapor’s Journey (Academy, F‑22, NASA) 0:00:38 – Launch Scrub, Second Attempt & What a Rocket Launch Feels Like 0:03:33 – First Moments in Space, Floating & Seeing Earth (Overview Effect) 0:06:11 – Leadership & Teamwork in Space: Roles, Trust, and Small-Crew Dynamics 0:10:19 – Multinational Crews & Leadership Lessons from Other Cultures 0:14:47 – No‑Notice F‑22 Deployment & Leading a Squadron in Combat 0:18:14 – Managing Burnout: Scheduling, Human Factors & “Crew‑10 Can Do Hard Things” 0:19:46 – Self‑Care as Team Care: Seasons of Life, Rest, and Being Present 0:26:02 – Family, Being an Aunt, and Balancing a Demanding Career 0:28:14 – Life After Space: Mentoring New Astronauts & Evolving as a Leader     ABOUT NICHOLE BIO U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Nichole "Vapor" Ayers is a trailblazing pilot, leader and astronaut whose journey began at the United States Air Force Academy, where she graduated in 2011 with a degree in mathematics. An accomplished F-22 Raptor pilot, Ayers is one of the few women ever to fly the world’s most advanced stealth fighter — and she’s one of even fewer to command them in formation for combat training missions. Col. Ayers earned her wings through years of training and operational excellence, logging over 200 flight hours in combat and playing a critical role in advancing tactical aviation. Her exceptional performance led to her selection in 2021 by NASA as a member of Astronaut Group 23, an elite class of 10 chosen from among 12,000 applicants. As a NASA astronaut candidate, Col. Ayers completed intensive training at Johnson Space Center, which included spacewalk preparation, robotics, survival training, systems operations and Russian language. Now qualified for spaceflight, she stands on the threshold of a new chapter that led her to the International Space Station. Throughout her career, Col. Ayers has exemplified the Academy's core values of Integrity First, Service Before Self and Excellence in All We Do. Her journey from cadet to combat aviator to astronaut is a testament to resilience, determination and a passion for pushing boundaries.   LEARN MORE ABOUT NICHOLE NASA Astronaut Nichole Ayers [https://www.nasa.gov/people/nasa-astronaut-nichole-ayers/]   CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org]   <---> Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org]  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org]     ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://USAFA.ORG/LBL]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Guest: Lt. Col. Nichole "Vapor" Ayers ’11   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Vapor, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We are so thrilled you're here. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:11 Thank you. Thanks for having me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:12 Absolutely. So the cadets get to spend some time with you at NCLS. Here the Long Blue Line is going to get to hear from you. And you know, we can actually go through the list. You know, F-22 pilot, USAFA 2011 graduate, you've been in combat, you’re a NASA pilot. The list is probably shorter what you haven't done. But, frankly, I'm just excited that you're here on Earth with us, because the last time we spoke, you called me from outer space. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:35 Yeah, that was a lot of fun. That was a lot of chat with you then too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 0:38 So let's just jump right in. So if we can just kind of catapult you, and let's do it in the way that they that NASA does, into space, maybe starting with the countdown, and then the Gs you take, what is that experience like? And maybe, what are some things you were thinking about in those moments? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 0:53 Oh, yeah. So, you know, we launched on March 14. First attempt was March 12, and we actually scrubbed the first launch. So we got all the way down to T minus 42 minutes right before we armed the launch escape system. So that's kind of a big milestone on the countdown. We were having issues with some hydraulics in the clamp that actually holds on to the rocket wall and then let's go. We weren't quite sure whether it was gonna let go, so they scrubbed the launch then, and it was a fascinating — you don't feel like you've got a ton of adrenaline going, but, you know, you feel kind of like you're in a sim. We do some really phenomenal training. And so when you're sitting on top of the rocket, it feels like you're in a simulator, except it's breathing and living, and the valves are moving, and you can hear the propellant being loaded and all of that. And so there's a very real portion to launch date. But then, coming down off of that adrenaline, we got a day off, thankfully. We could just kind of rest and relax and then go again. So everything went smoother the second try. Of course, you know, everybody's nerves are a little less, and everything was — it just felt calmer the whole way out. But, yeah, when that countdown hits zero, I like to say you're being slingshotted off the Earth. That's how it felt. You know, in that moment, you’re going. There's over a million pounds of thrust, and it's going. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:10 I mean, that sounds like a lot. I can't really fathom in my mind what that feels like. Can you describe it? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 2:17 You know, so I talked about in an F-22 and an afterburner takeoff, which is the most thrust that we have basically in any airplane on Earth. You know, you get set back in your seat really far. And, if you think of an airliner takeoff, you kind of get set back in your seat a little bit. Multiply that by, like, 10 or 20, and then that happened for nine minutes straight on a rocket. You're just being forcefully set back in your seat for nine minutes straight and just thrown off of the Earth, and in nine minutes, you're in orbit. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 2:49 So when you had your practice, did you experience that level for that long as well? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 2:54 For the simulators? So they can't that. We can't necessarily simulate the Gs in the sim. So that's like the one part that, you know, we go through the whole launch, but you're sitting at one G the whole time, and throughout the launch, you know, the Gs build, then we back off the thrust and the Gs build again, and then you have an engine cut off. And I like to explain, like, if you could visualize, like an old cartoon, and everybody's in the car driving, and Dad slams on the brakes, and everybody hits the windshield. And then he slams on the gas again, and everybody goes back to their seats. Like, that's what it felt like when the engine cut off and, you know, main engine cuts off, and then within a few seconds, the second engine lights, and you're set back in your seat again. So I like to give that visual. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 3:33 That's really helpful, actually. Wow. OK, so you're there, you're in space. And I guess my first question would be, what's something that, in that moment, you're either thinking or you're just, are you still just orienting yourself? What is that like? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 3:45 Oh, man, you know, we're still in the seats for the first few moments in space, and we have to open the nose cone. There's some other things that are happening on the spacecraft, and getting ready for a burn, for a phasing burn, to get up to and catch up with the International Space Station. But, you know, then eventually you get to unbuckle and get out of your seat and floating for the first time. I got out of my seat and I'm floating there. It felt like, you know, Captain Marvel when she's, like, hanging out. Yeah, that's, that's how I felt. And, you know, I like to give the visual, because it's like, it's just nothing you've ever experienced in your life, you know. And then you look out the window and the view is something, it's indescribable. You know, I don't think we have the right words in the English language to describe what it feels like to look back at Earth from space. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 4:35 Was there a moment when you're looking out at Earth — did you kind of play back just different things in your life? Did you think about, you know, significance of things, or, like, scope of things, or even just the vantage point? Did it kind of just change things or were you just in awe at the moment? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 4:49 No, I think, you know, we talked about the overview effect, when astronauts specifically look back at Earth, and it hits everybody kind of differently. And for me, I think the biggest thing you know, when you look at a map of the states or a map of the world, you know, every country is a different color, or every state's a different color, and there are lines that describe the borders, right? And those don't exist in in space. Those don't exist like when you can't see different colored states, right? But you can see the Grand Canyon, and you can see the mountains, and you can see the Amazon, and you can see the desert in Africa. And you get to, you know, you get to learn the world geography by colors and terrain. And it's just a really good reminder that, you know, we're all humans, and we're all on this little fragile marble, just trying to take care of each other and trying to take care of Earth. And so I think that's what hit me the most, was just there are no borders, and we're all the same. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 5:44 Gosh, well, it's a unique and probably highly impressive team that you're with. I mean, we know the road to get to becoming a NASA astronaut is certainly one that is very difficult. Starts from many, many, in the 1000s, down to 10. And so, you know, when we think about leadership, and I've heard you share this before with others, you talk about teamwork and leadership, maybe explain a little bit what that's like in space when you're all so highly effective leaders. You know, what does that look like? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 6:12 That's a great question. You know, I think for us, it is a very fluid movement, right? You lead one day; you follow the next. And you know, I'll give you an example. So Anne McClain was the commander of SpaceX Crew-10 for NASA. So she was in charge of Crew-10 is our ride up to the space station, and our ride home, right? It's the capsule, the rocket and the capsule. And then we were on Expedition 73 aboard the International Space Station, where Takuya, who it was, Takuya Onishi, who was our mission specialist on Dragon, soon as we crossed into the hatch and he took command. He is now the commander of the Space Station, and Anne and I are flight engineers, and so it's a pretty fluid movement in terms of leading and following. But ultimately, you know, it's just about being a good team and taking care of each other. And I think that being a good leader is taking care of other people. And, you know, we talk about team care — self-care, and team care are like the huge parts that we actually train and learn about at NASA as we go through our training, because you're on this really small space in the vacuum of space for five-plus months at a time, and it's — there are only seven people up there and everybody's going to have a bad day. We're all humans, and you can't, there's no hiding.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 7:30 What's a bad day like in space?   Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 7:32 People make mistakes, right? We're all human. You might make a mistake on something, you might mess up a procedure. You hope that it's not something that causes a safety incident, right? The main goal for me, at least, was, I know I'm going to make mistakes. As long as I'm not unsafe, I'll be happy. And I think that a lot of us have that conscious decision-making process. But I think that we're also humans and have Earth lives, and your Earth life doesn't stop when you go to space. And so bad days could be something going on at home. Bad days could be something going on in space. Could be an interaction that you had with somebody on the ground that, you know, there's a lot of communication that happens between us on the ground. There are thousands of humans on the Earth that keep the Space Station running. So that day could be anything but it’s tough to hide up there. Here, you can kind of like, duck and cover and maybe you just spend the day in an office. But it doesn't happen up there. We have to continue to work and continue to function. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:32 So you mentioned that there are seven of you in this tight space. Now, when you go up there, your crew, is it the same seven?   Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 8:38 For the majority of the time. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 8:42 OK, excellent. So one of the things we think about whenever we're leading or we're working with teams is trust, and obviously you have a great amount of trust with the crew that you're going up there with. But then you mentioned you went on to the ISS and you're working with others. What does that look like when it's someone maybe you haven't worked as closely with in a really important mission? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 9:03 So for the seven expedition members, we actually do train together for a little bit of it, not nearly as closely as, you know, the four of us training for Dragon mission. But because the most dynamic parts are launch and landing, we do a lot of training together, just as the four of us, but we train all over the world. So we go to Japan and Germany and Canada, and we go to, you know, Hawthorne, California, and we go to Russia, and we train with them, and we learn about the Russian segment, and we train with our fellow cosmonauts there. And we do emergency training specifically all together, because it takes all seven of us in an emergency doing the right thing and knowing everybody's roles. And so we train that together as well. And then anytime you're in the same country or same city together, then you get to spend the time outside of the training to get to know each other. And so you actually know your crew fairly well. But obviously, everybody's from a different nation. And we had Americans, we had a Japanese astronaut, we had Russians, so you learn everybody's culture, and it's actually, you know, to your point on being in that small — and not necessarily knowing everybody. There's also a cultural aspect; we get to know each other. We get to learn about other people's cultures and figure out how to communicate and live and work, even across the whole world. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 10:19 What was something that you learned from another culture of astronaut, maybe in the leadership realm, or just something that you took away, that's really something that surprised me, or like to emulate? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 10:30 I love Taku’s leadership style. So Takuya Onishi — he's one of those more quiet humans, and he's super kind, but he is the most intelligent human I've ever met, and he is super-efficient with everything he does, and he pays attention to all of the little things. And so he only speaks up when he thinks something needs to be changed, or when he thinks that, like, we need to go in a different direction, otherwise, he's pretty happy to let you go, like, let you go as far as you want to go on something. And then when he thinks you're gonna run off a cliff, he pulls you back. So when he speaks, everybody listens. And I love that. I think some of that is cultural, obviously, him being from Japan, but I think it's also just his personal leadership style, but I learned a ton from him in terms of how to interact with people, how to let people be themselves, but also how to run a ship, and everybody knew exactly who was running the ship. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 11:22 Wow. And it shows that respect lens that you're just kind of talking about when he spoke. Everybody listens. Is that something that you feel you already had that kind of leadership style or is that something that you've kind of evolved in yourself? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 11:37 I like to think that that's the way that I lead. That's kind of how I try to be a leader. But we're not perfect, right? Nobody's perfect. And watching him, you know, taking notes from how he interacted with everybody, the things that he thought of, the things that he brought with him for us on station, you know, we get a very limited amount of stuff, personal things that we get to bring with us. And he brought things for the crew that were like, huge milestones for professional careers. You know, just the attention to detail on the human beings around him was pretty phenomenal. So it's one of the things I'm working on to be better at, because I like to think I'm good at it. But I saw the master work. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 12:18 I love that. And something you said about him, he always has attention to detail, and he saw the little things. He paid attention to the little things. I remember a past conversation we had. You had a little nugget from Col. Nick Hague, also USAFA — ’98 I believe. And I think he said to you, something about, you know, “Nicole, don't forget that you're squishy,” or something like that. And so have you had more of those moments in there where they're like little nuggets or little moments that actually give you a big return or big lessons in your life? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 12:46 Oh, definitely, yeah, that one's a funny one, because the space station is metal. Everything is metal, and it's hard and so we still have weight, well, mass. We still have mass. We don't have weight, right, because we're in microgravity. But if you're cooking around a corner and you run into a handrail, it's gonna hurt, you know, if you imagine going 10 or 15 mph into something metal, it's gonna hurt — you're squishy. So that was a great lesson in slowing down and making sure you're watching your surroundings. But one of the things that Anne McClain says that cracks me up, but every time it happens, like, “Yep, this is definitely—," she says, “Experience is that thing you learn right after you need it.” And so we had a lot of those moments where you learn a lesson and you're like, “Ah, I wish I knew that five minutes ago.” And so that's something that applies everywhere. Experience is that thing you always needed right before that happened. But we also like to say Crew-10 can do hard things. That's another thing that was just kind of our motto, whether it's training — some of the training can be really physically demanding. It's really mentally demanding. And it's a lot of travel. When you get assigned to a mission, it's probably a year and a half to two years of training, and then you're gone for six months. So out of that two to two and a half years, you're not home for over a year. So you're all over the world, traveling to train and work. And like I said, we're all humans. We have Earth lives, we have homes, you get situations back home. And so navigating personal lives, navigating professional lives, navigating tough training. Crew-10 can do hard things. We like to say that. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 14:22 I like that. It also talks a bit about your grit. Crew-10 grit. So, talking about hard things, I'd like to take us to the time when you've been piloting the F-22 and you've seen combat. I heard you speaking a little bit before about a no-notice deployment. Let's visit that time in your life. What were you doing? What was your role, and what was something you experienced? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 14:47 Sure. So I was actually flying the day that we got notified. And, you know, just a standard training sortie — had landed, and some of the maintainers were like, “Hey, have you heard what's happening?” And I was like, “No, what's happening?” And then we had a big squadron meeting, and that's when we got notified, like, “Hey, we're deploying.” We were on the GRF, is what it was called at the time, Global Response Force, and I think some of that structure has changed since I left that squadron, but we knew that once we were on the GRF, there was a chance that we would get activated and get moved somewhere. Didn't necessarily expect it to be quite that quick. I think it was like the next week we got this deployment. So we got notified on a Thursday, I think, and then on Monday, I was taking off.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:31 Oh, really no notice.   Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 15:33 Yeah, so, four days later, we were taking off, and then seven days later, we were flying missions from — we were stationed at Al Udeid Air Base, so we're flying out of Al Udeid within a week. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 15:45 How many with you?   Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 15:47 So when we deploy, we actually deploy with our maintenance squadrons, 300 people. Twenty to 30 of them are the pilots, and then the rest are the maintainers. And so it's the entire squadron. We morph into an expeditionary squadron. And so there are 300 people that head out. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 16:03 So I imagine, you know, on top of the fact that it was such a rapid movement, there's probably things that people had to obviously work through family. This needs to happen. But what were some things that you experienced in that deployment, or even in just that transition? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 16:21 Again, I go back to taking care of people. I was a flight commander at the time. We had two flight commanders, so I'm in charge of basically half the squadron, and we had a really wonderful commander who gave us the authority and the autonomy to leave the squadron. So, you know, it's about saying, like, “How are you guys doing at home?” Half our squadron didn't even have tan flight suits. You know, we're trying, we're working with logistics. We're trying to get everything ready. Like, does everybody have a go bag? Does everybody even know what a go bag is? Do you have the things you need? So working all of that. And then do you have the childcare figured out? Do you have the — how is all your family doing? Are you ready for this? And then we had to do a bunch of last-minute training before we left. And so it's a really busy time, but it was one of the first times where I felt like I had an influence on the people that were under me, that I had supervised. And so it was a really great experience to solve those problems, figure it out and help people get off the ground in four days successfully, and leaving something, some semblance of structure at home. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 17:24 So you said it was the first time where you kind of really felt that you had that impact. What would you say kind of maybe crystallized within yourself in learning that? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 17:36 I think it really solidified. I think I said, “I try to lead by taking care of people,” right? I truly believe if you take care of the human, they're going to do a really great job. You don't have to ask much of people at work and in their professional life, if their personal and the human side of them is taken care of and so that's kind of what I mean when I say that solidified it for me, like, make sure that the humans are good to go, and they'll go do anything you want to do. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 18:04 Wow. So while on that deployment, you're leading half of that squadron. What were some of the challenges maybe that you experienced, and how did you grow as a leader during that timeframe? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 18:14 Scheduling is definitely a tough one. So we flew daytime and nighttime. We basically had an F-22 airborne for almost 24 hours a day for the entire six months, six and a half months. We left and we were told it might be two- or three-month deployment, and then it turned into six months. And then we got delayed up coming home. And so then we stayed through Christmas. And those are the things that really are tough for people. But we have a limited number of jets that we took. We have a limited number of pilots; we have a limited number of maintainers and parts. And so I think for us, managing a schedule between me and the other flight commander, managing a schedule, managing quality of life for everybody, and make sure that we're not burning people out, or that they're not —we're flying eight-, nine-, 10-hour sorties, right? And that's exhausting. It's just you and that airplane with your wingman and a different airplane. And so you have to manage, again, that human factor. The human capital is probably the toughest thing to manage. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 19:15 Wow, and you talked about how the deployment kind of got extended. What were some things, because many of our listeners and our viewers are leaders, and at different levels of leadership and different times in their lives where they're doing that. When you were leading, and you had some of those subordinates, or those that were working with you that really experienced some troubles, through emotions, through some of that. How did you help navigate them through that when you were all in that as well? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 19:46 Right. You know, I think at NASA especially, we talk about self-care being a huge part of team care. And so making sure I do this in my regular life too, but, you know, making sure that you're getting enough rest, making sure that you're taking care of yourself and your personal life, so that you can truly be present for the other people that need you. And I think being present for others is one of the biggest things that you can do. You know, they may not need a ton of help, or they may not need the solution, but being there, being available and being present for people is really important. But you can't do that unless you're good to go yourself. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 20:18 Did you see that from someone? Did you learn that from someone you saw doing that? Or just, how did, I mean NASA's — you said, NASA, but did you see that at the Academy? Or where did you kind of gather that? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 20:28 You know, I think one of the things that hit me hard about showing up and being present was actually more professional. I kind of skated through the Academy on minimal sleep, and I was able to manage everything. But I wasn't flying a $143 million airplane. And so, in pilot training, we started to talk about crew rest and pilot rest. That's the first time that I had heard this concept of, “You need to go home and get rest so that you can be on your game.” Because flying airplanes, your decisions have real consequences, right? And you have to be present and available, and you have to be on your game to fly airplanes and do well in airplanes. And then the faster and the higher and the better the airplane gets, the more on your game you have to be. So I think it's something that has just kind of evolved in me. And then, as a leader, I realized, if you don't have any gas in the tank, you cannot help somebody else. And so for me, it's just kind of been, over the last decade and a half, of, wow, I need my sleep. I need to make sure I'm good to go. I need to make sure my human is good, so that way I can help other humans. And yeah, when your decisions have real consequences, it's important that you're present and you're ready to go. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 21:43 Have you seen some of the fact that you prioritize that for yourself, for you as your own human? Have you seen others kind of like see that, view that, and actually take that on as well themselves. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 21:53 Yeah, I think they do. And I think, as a leader, it's really important to set that example. The commander cannot be the first one in last one out. Like, you just can't do that, because everybody's going to stay until you leave. So setting the example, setting the example of having a good home-life balance as well. Like, home and work have to be balanced. Sleep has to be balanced. Again, self-care is the biggest part of team care, I think. And if you model that, people start to realize it's important. You know, the younger people that might burn themselves out trying to get somewhere, trying to get to the next step, or trying to impress somebody, or whatever the case may be, if they see you taking a step back and they see your success, maybe then they can start worrying about themselves too. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 22:34 I think that's a great lesson, leading by example. For sure. There are probably moments that you experience both at the Academy, while flying the F-22 or as an astronaut, where you don't have the luxury of balance. How do you navigate that and how do you help others get to that space maybe quicker? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 22:53 I think of everything as a season in life. It might just be a busy season, and you might just have to put some time in but making sure that you are planning ahead and know that you're gonna be able to take some time and reset. And that could be anything, right? That could be personal life, professional life. That could be the four-week training trip that we've got is going to be rough, and its multiple time zones, and it's a ton of training, it's a ton of information. You just have to get through it. But then, that week, when we got home, I made sure my schedule was a little lighter. Whatever the balance is, I think of things in seasons. Crew-10 can do hard things, right? And that came from — you can get through this next training session, right? But we're gonna do a mask-to-suit transition, which is like in a fire, you've got a mask on. You have to get from that mask into your spacesuit. It's a significant physical event. And there's limited oxygen; there's limited ability to breathe in the suit when in that specific environment. And so how do you slow down, take the breaths you need to get in there to not then get to a point where you're panicking, right? Or that you're too exhausted or too hot or overdid, or whatever it is, right? So I think even just that, that is a season. We're going to do two hours of this. That's my season, and then we'll get out of the simulator, we'll take a break, right? And if it happened on orbit, it would be like, “We're going to get through this. We're going to solve the problem. We're going to manage the emergency, and then once things are set, we'll have a moment to breathe.” So that's kind of how I think of it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 24:21 Did seasons come something, a term that you kind of realized maybe at the Academy, you were a volleyball athlete at the Academy, and so volleyball has a season. But my question is, like, how did you come to that realization? Like, “Oh, I can get through this, and I put it in a bucket of time.” Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 24:35 You learn a lot of time management at the Academy, and when you're in the fall, you're really busy, spring season is less busy, and so you kind of learn early how to manage. Like, “OK, I’ve got to run. I gotta sprint,” right? “And then I can jog later, or I can walk later.” So, I think you learn that growing up in school, and you know, if you play sports or you do extracurricular activities or other things like that, or even just seasons in life at home, life ebbs and flows. I don't even know when I started saying it, but my sister and I started saying “seasons of life” to each other a long time ago. You know, she's got three kiddos, so she's been in all sorts of seasons. But, yeah, it's just, you know, I think I started to time block things, or block things off and just, and that's the only way you're going to get through life, is if you focus on what you need to do right now, be good at it, and then move to the next thing. You can have an idea of what's coming next, but you have to be present and do what you're doing there. Yes, so, yeah, seasons, time, blocks, whatever you want to call it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 25:39 I like that. Well, you brought up your sister, and so you're an auntie of three. Let's talk about your personal life and leadership, some experiences you've had navigating your schedule. You're on the road so much. How do you prioritize? I guess the things that are important to you when you have such a heavy schedule, yeah, being on the road and the people that are important to you, right? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:03 Man, I think that for me, my family has been a huge support system my whole life. My twin sister — built in best friend.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:13 And who is older? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:14 She is. She's got me by a minute. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 26:18 OK. Does she hold that over you?   Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 26:20 Yes, of course she does. We've just always supported each other 100% and everything. She's been my biggest cheerleader through all of my life, and I've been her biggest cheerleader through all of her life. And you know, my main goal in life is to be the coolest auntie, like the best auntie, and I would die happy. And they're a huge priority to me. I see them every couple two to three months — since my oldest has was born. So for the last 14 years, just made it a priority, even if it's like, leave late on a Friday night and then get home late Sunday night, I make the effort to go see them and to interact with them. And you know, to help foster them. You know they're growing up. And I love watching kids grow up and experience the world and see what can be done. Their dad's a Marine, their mom's this really successful real estate agent, their auntie’ a pilot-slash-astronaut. You know, they've got, like, all these no family that's really not doing very much. Yeah, you know, they've got all these really great role models. And my goal is to just show them that it doesn't matter who you are, like they only ever know me as auntie. Like they know I'm an astronaut, and they love that. Their friends know that I'm an astronaut. Anti vapor, no, no, yeah. But, you know, like, they're always gonna get a big hug from auntie, like, that's, that's what's important to me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:36 Well, you mentioned, going into space, being an auntie. So, would you describe your time and space is, it's probably out of this world. I mean, that's, wow, that's terrible. That's terrible I said it that way. But I think you've mentioned it is kind of the best time in your life. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 27:52 Yeah. Best five months my life. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 27:56 Best five months of your life, and it's passed. Now, when we think about our evolution, whether personally, professionally, as leaders, etc., we have these ideas in our mind, like, this is the pinnacle. How do you navigate what's next after you've experienced that pinnacle? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 28:14 Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's something that a lot of us struggle with when we come home. What's next? We get six months, some time to think and kind of get reintegrated. And you don't necessarily have to go back to work right away. I was able to spend a ton of time with my sister and her kiddos. Yeah, what's next. And I think for me, like the drive out to the launch pad, I was like, “Man, I've made it.” You know, the first time I looked out the window from Dragon, “I've made it.” First time we crossed the hatch, and I went and looked out the glass like, “Wow. The hard work paid off.” And I still feel like that to this day. I would have spent four more months in space if they had asked me to, and I would have turned around and launched right back then the day that we landed, and it was because of the crewmates that I spent it with and the fulfillment that I got from the mission. But I think you can find fulfillment in a lot of ways. And you know, my job, now that I've been back, I'm going to be working with the new class of astronauts and their training for spacewalk. So in the Neutral Buoyancy Lab, our big pool, like, my job is to be their mentor as they go through the spacewalk training. And you know, like, I cannot wait. I'm so excited. I cannot wait to have an impact and try to help teach this next generation of spacewalkers, this next generation of astronauts, to be better than us. I find a lot of fulfillment in making the next generation better. So I think, however the fulfillment shows up for people, I think as long as you can find something, there you'll be happy. Going to space was great, but teaching and instructing and mentoring is also really fulfilling for me. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:54 And that will be 10 of them? How many will that be? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 29:55 Ten.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 29:56 Ten. So then you'll have 13. You'll be auntie to 13. Oh, that's wonderful. What have you learned about yourself since then? You know, you've evolved as a leader through different situations, high threat, high risk. Safety is paramount. All of those different experiences. And now you're back on Earth and you're about to, you know, mentor. How have you evolved your leadership, and where would you say you're trying to go? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 30:23 Where am I trying to go? I think, for me, leadership is also about being vulnerable and being open and honest with people about failures or hardships and so, you know, like in the flying community, if you make a mistake, you're immediately like, “Hey, I messed this up. Here's how we fix it.” And that's something that we do at NASA as well, especially on a grand scale, right? Thousands of employees and everybody like, that's the only way that we get to space is by admitting when we've made mistakes, talking to each other about how we fix it and sharing those lessons learned. And so I think that especially when you get into the higher roles of leadership, it's important to go, “Hey, I messed up,” or, “Hey, I don't know the answer.” And being transparent with the people that you're working with. And if you don't know it, but you know where to go find it, like, “I'll get that answer for you,” instead of making up an answer, trying to figure out how to look like you're in charge, right? It's really important to me to also show that we don't know everything. We're human. We make mistakes, and it's OK to make mistakes, as long as you share it, and you share the lessons learned, and you make the next person better. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 31:32 Did you experience that personally? Did you have a moment in which you had to say, “Hey, I made a mistake,” and that's helped you realize that being vulnerable is really important or is that just something you've seen done really well? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 31:40 Oh, I've admitted a lot of mistakes. You know, I made a couple pretty big mistakes in the Raptor. Everybody's gonna make a big mistake at some point in their life. And, you know, I think that that was something that was modeled really well in the flying community early on. And it's something that's not tolerated if you're not willing to share your lessons learned. It's not tolerated in that community. That’s a really good thing. I learned that in pilot training, right? If your buddy in your class makes the same mistake the next day that you made, you get in trouble because you didn't tell them how to how to prepare. And so it's fostered early on, especially in the flying community. I can't speak to any other community because I grew up there, but it's fostered early on, and so it's just something that comes naturally. I think eventually, because you just, you've seen it done so many times, and if you want other people to succeed, you're going to do it. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 32:29 All right. Well, we have two questions left. The first one is, what's something you do every day to be a better leader? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 32:37 That's a good one. This is gonna sound silly, but I sleep. Like, I'll go back to the self-care thing, right? Like, I put a lot of attention into being healthy, being hydrated, sleeping well. Like, if you take care of your body, your mind is going to do way more for you. And so I think you can show up as a better leader if you show up, rested, hydrated, fed, worked out whatever you need to do to be the best human you can be. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 33:09 That's what I try to do. OK. I like that a lot, and I think that's a good indication for me that six hours is probably not enough. Naviere needs a little bit more. And it's truth, because you told me, though I'm gonna do that. The second one is, if you could go back in time, maybe what's something you would have told yourself — your younger self — or maybe, as our cadets are listening, that you've learned and what they can be doing now to be a better leader down the road. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 33:34 If you run into a hardship or you fail at something, or something feels insurmountable, or you don't feel like you're ready, good enough, or whatever the case may be, doubt starts to seep in, right? I would say, rely on the support system that you have. Rely on the people around you. Talk about it. Figure out, you know, “Hey, I failed this GR, like, man, this kind of sucks.” And you know, maybe you just need to hear me say it out loud, and maybe I just need to get it off my chest, or maybe I need help trying to figure out the solution for whatever the case may be. So, you know, I had a built-in team on the volleyball team. I had a built-in friends and teammates that I could lean on. Maybe that's your squadronmates or your classmates, or whoever it is, right? And I think finding the friends that you can rely on for the rest of your life. Professionally, I've got a friend here that I met in the F-22 community. We've been friends for almost a decade now, and he's still one of the first people that I call when something happens, like, “Oh, I messed this up today. Help.” So, you know, finding a support system. My sister's the other person that I call first off. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:38 She probably knows you're gonna call when you call. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 34:39 Yeah, we talk way too much. But, you know, having that support system around you and finding people that really bolster you and get you across that line and help you find the courage to take the next step, I think that's really important. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 34:54 I know I said there was only two, but as I've listened to you, I just think you're just you're just remarkable, and maybe what's something that you're proud about yourself as a leader. I would really love to hear that in your, you know— Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 35:05 I think the thing that makes me the most proud as a leader is when somebody succeeds and it's something that I helped them do. I've had somebody come back and say, “Thanks for saying that.” That pushed me out the edge, you know, like, I'm really into building the next generation and make them better than us. And so if I see somebody succeeding, that's good. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:27 Well, this has been incredible. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you would love to share with the Long Blue Line in our community? Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 35:33 Oh, man, the community is great. I think I would just say thank you to the community. I've gotten so much love and support from Coloradans, but also the Long Blue Line and the Air Force in general. You know, I love the community that we have. It goes right back to what I just said, right, finding a community that supports you and pushes you to do better and be better. And this is that community. Col. Naviere Walkewicz 35:55 Well, Vapor, I promise I'm gonna get more sleep, and I just want to thank you for being such an incredible leader and guest here on Long Blue Leadership. Col. Nichole “Vapor” Ayers 36:03 Thanks for having me back. Absolutely.   Col. Naviere Walkewicz 36:05 Thanks. You know, this conversation was really incredible with Vapor. I think some of the things that really stood out to me is just how incredible as a human she is. She brings humanity into leadership. She puts people first. She thinks about the team. She works hard. Don't forget to prioritize sleep. But I think really, some of the lessons that we can all take away can hit us all personally, because if you think about people first and taking care of them, and the fact that you have to take care of yourself too, you can go really far in leadership. So I really appreciate her today on Long Blue Leadership. And I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. Until next time.   KEYWORDS Joel Neeb, Long Blue Leadership, Air Force Academy leadership, USAFA leadership, military leadership podcast, leadership development, leadership lessons, character-based leadership, leadership under pressure, leading with integrity, decision making in leadership, mentorship and leadership, values-based leadership, service before self, leadership mindset, leadership podcast interview, military leadership stories, leadership for professionals, leadership for entrepreneurs, how to be a better leader, leadership growth.       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation

Courage to Lead: NCLS Marks 33 Years at USAFA

What does courage look like under fire? In captivity? In command? In service? This edition of Long Blue Leadership was recorded on location at the U.S. Air Force Academy’s 33rd National Character and Leadership Symposium. We've explored these questions with our guests and captured the conversations for you. Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist for the Air Force Academy Association and Foundation, hosts this special episode featuring voices shaped by combat, crises and lifelong service. Their message to cadets is clear: Leadership is earned through character, and character is forged in hard moments. - Seg. 1: Lt. Col. Mark George and C1C Jaime Snyder, officer and NCLS cadet director, respectively, set the stage for this year's NCLS and for the podcast. - Seg. 2: Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel "DT" Del Toro on courage in times of crisis. - Seg. 3: Task Force Hope developer and facilitator Maj. Tara Holmes on preparing future leaders to handle crisis before it happens. - Seg. 4: Former POW Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier ’64, on leading in circumstances out of your control. - Seg. 5: Annapolis grad and Vietnam-era aviator, Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb on how character breeds courage. All of our guest’s lives and careers reflect the reality of this year’s theme through combat, crisis and service.     CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org]   <---> Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org]  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org]      ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://www.longblueleadership.org/]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS:  - Host, Ted Robertson, Multimedia and Podcast Specialist, United States Air Force Academy Association and Foundation  - Seg. 1: C1C Jaime Snyder, NCLS Cadet Director; Lt. Col. Mark George, NCLS Officer  - Seg. 2: Senior Master Sargent Israel Del Toro  - Seg. 3: Maj. Tara Holmes, Task Force Hope  - Seg. 4: Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier ’64  - Seg. 5: Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb   Ted Robertson 0:00 Welcome to Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of the 33rd annual National Character and Leadership Symposium. I'm Ted Robertson, multimedia and podcast specialist for the Air Force Academy Association & Foundation, coming to you from Polaris Hall located here at the United States Air Force Academy. This year's symposium centers on the theme Courage to Lead in the Profession of Arms: Combat and Crisis-tested Character, where attendees and cadets will explore how courage in all its forms shapes leaders when uncertainty, fear and consequence are real. Our coverage will start with the Center for Character and Leadership Development’s Lt. Col. Mark George and NCLS director, Cadet 1st Class Jaime Snyder. They’ll set the stage not only for NCLS, but for today's coverage. Then we'll talk with four key leaders speaking at the symposium, including Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel Del Torro on keeping courageous during times of crisis. We’ll also talk with Task Force Hope developer and facilitator, Maj. Tara Holmes, on preparing leaders to handle crisis before it happens. Then, former POW, Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier, USAFA Class of ’64, on leading in circumstances out of your control. And finally, Annapolis grad and Vietnam-era aviator, Capt. (Ret.) J. Charles Plumb, on how character breeds courage. All of our guests’ lives and careers reflect the reality of this year's theme through combat, crisis and service. So I want to bring in our first two guests to help, as I said, frame the discussion today. We're going to dig in to learn what this is all about and sort of the “why” behind it. Cadet Jaime Snyder, 2026 NCLS director. Cadet Snyder, you've helped lead the organizing of the National Character and Leadership Symposium — 33rd year for this, as you know, and part of that work, you've trained cadets and permanent party. I'm going to ask you to explain permanent party, all of which helps strengthen your own public speaking and leadership communication skills. You want to kind of expound on that a bit? C1C Jaime Snyder 2:20 Yes, sir. So a part of my role being in NCLS is to, one, provide the guidance, the support and resources on the cadet side to succeed. But what really makes NCLS special is that we integrate permanent party with cadets. So oftentimes me, in supporting and training permanent party, is giving them cadet perspective, because while they're over here and the Center for Character and Leadership Development, we're over there in the Cadet Wing, and I can be the mediator between both parties. Ted Robertson 2:46 Let's talk a little bit about permanent party. What does that term mean? Who does that describe? C1C Jaime Snyder 2:52 Oh yes. Permanent party describes the civilian and military faculty that works in the Center for Character and Leadership Development that assists with the execution of NCLS — the National Character and Leadership Symposium. Ted Robertson 3:05 How big is the team behind this event every year? C1C Jaime Snyder 3:08 It's kind of complex where we'll get search cadets. We'll get a large number of volunteers, approximately around 300 from the Cadet Wing. Internal staff consists of 50 cadets who work it throughout the entire year, and around 50 staff members who are permanent party who work in the Center for Character and Leadership Development. Ted Robertson 3:29 I want to bring in next Lt. Col. Mark George, who is the experiential and training division chief and NCLS program director, the very fortunate man that gets to work for some incredibly talented cadets. Col. Mark George 3:43 That is absolutely true. Thanks to for having us on. Cadet Snyder has done an outstanding job leading this team. I came into this a little bit late. You know, we've had some reorganization here at the Academy, and after some shuffling, I got the honor and the privilege to take over NCLS while the planning was well underway. So my job was to just make sure this train kept rolling, that people had the resources that they needed, the top cover they needed. And as Jamie said, he was training me as a permanent party member to make sure that I had the cadet perspective. And then, you know, we were moving this ball forward as we got to this event. Ted Robertson 4:23 So coming up in the podcast we’ll get to the sort of “why” and what’s at the core of NCLS. Colonel, let’s start with you. What is National Character and Leadership Symposium designed to do for cadets?   Col. Mark George 4:38 Sure. The National Character and Leadership Symposium — NCLS — is designed to bring exemplars that embody the core values and the traits that we want cadets to have when they become leaders on Day 1 and inspire them to a lifetime of service.   Ted Robertson 4:57 Cadet Snyder?   C1C Jaime Snyder 4:59 We definitely see at USAFA, there is a clear correlation with NCLS and character development. One thing we want cadets to get out of NCLS is to further develop leaders of character who are going to join the fight in the Air Force and Space Force, and that's why I see the epitome of NCLS as it's an opportunity to hear people's perspectives as well as learn from it and apply it to their daily lives. Ted Robertson 5:24 Gentlemen, this year's theme focuses on the courage to lead in the profession of arms. Cadet Snyder, we'll start with you. How did that theme come together, and why is it especially relevant for cadets right now? C1C Jaime Snyder 5:40 With our current structure at USAFA, we've had some implement of change. We recognize that the future war conflict is more prevalent than ever, and that it's important for the cadets to understand that we're changing the way we approach training, as well as what we're learning in curriculum. So this NCLS was an incredible opportunity to discuss courage when leading in the profession of arms, but furthermore, courage and crises-tested character. Which is what we're trying to further push along with what we do in training as well as what we teach in leadership. Ted Robertson 6:15 You make good decisions when your character is strong. You make those decisions with integrity when your character is intact and it's strong. Would you agree with that, Colonel? Col. Mark George 6:25 Absolutely. And I think Cadet Snyder hit the nail on the head that we really want the cadets to understand that the environments that they're stepping into are going to require that courage to do hard things. In my day, like we didn't necessarily think about the fight in that way. You know, we were kind of stovepiped in. And these cadets, whatever environment they may be stepping into, the next conflict is going to require a lot, a high demand of them, and their character is their foundation for that. Ted Robertson 6:59 One of the things you can say about this event is that it brings together voices from combat, crisis, athletics, academia and industry. How intentional is that mix, Cadet Snyder, and what do cadets gain from hearing such different perspectives on leadership and character? C1C Jaime Snyder 7:18 I think by hearing different perspectives, you get to see how universal courage is. When we say courage, it's not just one thing, it's also moral, social, spiritual. And by looking at different versions of courage, you can understand that there's different ways to actually apply courage. Understanding that courage is not the absence of fear, also knowing that courage is not simply being a confident individual. That it's more complex than you may define courage, and so you can then apply it that way — by looking at different perspectives. Ted Robertson 7:53 Colonel, I'll address this one to you as well. Col. Mark George 7:56 Sure. Courage — we're talking about courage here, and there's a heavy focus on the combat side with this year's speakers. The thing that sticks out to me is that courage always involves a decision to do the hard thing. And that's what all of our speakers brought this year. They're showing how in different environments, whether it's in a prison cell in Hanoi or up on the Space Station or — there's a hard decision and the right thing is sometimes pretty obvious, but it doesn't mean it's easy. It does not mean it's easy to do. And so courage always involves a decision to do the right thing. Ted Robertson 8:39 Cadet Snyder? C1C Jaime Snyder 8:40 What he said I find to be very true — understanding that courage is not simply doing something physical, but also in a leadership role, especially — we're talking to cadets who are going to soon be commissioned officers. It's important to know that you need to make the right decision on and off the battlefield. Ted Robertson 8:58 So from your perspective as a cadet — and this one is just for you, Cadet Snyder — what does it mean to help shape an event like NCLS while you’re still developing as a leader yourself? C1C Jaime Snyder 9:10 What I've seen through NCLS is taking the time to relax. Don't focus on the future and focus where you're at right now, and that's character development. So don't let the pursuit of tomorrow diminish the joy today. We all have this aspiration to graduate, throw our hats in the air, Thunderbirds fly over. But right now it's important to focus on character development as that's going to be important as future officers. Ted Robertson 9:35 That makes 1,000% very clear sense. But I do want to ask you, less than 100 days from the day you toss your hat — you're giving me a big smile right now — talk about how that feels right now for you. C1C Jaime Snyder 9:47 It's incredible, and a part of it is less daunting, because I can say this institution has really prepared me to commission, and so it's more liberating than daunting for me. Ted Robertson 9:58 Col. George, I'm going to direct this one straight to you, and this is an ask of you from the leadership perspective: How do we events Like NCLS fit into the broader effort to intentionally develop leaders of character here at the Academy. Col. Mark George 10:14 So I get the honor of leading the experiential and training division in the Center for Character and Leadership Development. So we're all about creating experiences and those opportunities for cadets to have different types of environments where they'll learn about character. And right now, NCLS is an opportunity to listen to where people's character was tested, how they overcame it. And then we also have different events that we try to put the cadets in where we'll actually test their character. And that could be on the challenge tower, it could be through our character labs where we're having discussions. NCLS is a huge part of that, because the planning cycle is so long. Ted Robertson 10:59 Cadet Snyder? C1C Jaime Snyder 11:00 Yes, sir. One thing I wanted to add on to that is with NCLS, one thing that makes this event the most unique experience that I've had is the fact that we get to engage in meaningful dialog. This isn't a brief. This is an experience for everyone who attends. I've had the opportunity to talk to Col. George's son, who aspires to possibly come to the Air Force Academy. So I don't want to say this is just for cadets, but it's also a promotion tool. And understand that what we do at NCLS is very important. And anyone who wants to attend can come and see what we're doing and how important it is.   Col. Mark George 11:33 I want to thank you for that, by the way. He looks up to you, and that meant a lot.   Ted Robertson 11:37 That's pretty visionary stuff. That's touching the next generation. That's fantastic. All right, this is for you both. When cadets look back on NCLS years from now, what do you hope they're going to remember feeling or being challenged to do differently?   C1C Jaime Snyder 11:56 There is a very strong human component to NCLS, and with that, there's a human experience. Understanding that we're getting speakers and we'll see their bios that they're incredible. They have incredible stories of making the right decision when tensions were high, and getting to hear their stories and understand that they ultimately were no different than we are. Some of them were Air Force Academy graduates. Some graduated from the Naval Academy, West Point, other colleges, but they were young, 20-year-old people like we were as cadets. And so getting to understand where they're coming from, human experience is vital to NCLS, and how do we grow and understand where they're coming from? Ted Robertson 12:38 Col. George? Col. Mark George 12:39 Yeah, I think what I would want the cadets to remember is how these speakers made them feel. You're right, you won't remember every nugget of wisdom that was said. I just had the opportunity to talk with Gen. Scott Miller, and he was an incredible leader. And I feel like everything he was saying was gold. I wish I'd been able to write it down. But he really makes you feel like you understand just how important your role is going to be as a young leader. And when you come away as second lieutenants from this place, you've had incredible opportunities and now you're stepping out in the real world. I would think I want the cadets to remember that like, “Hey, what I do matters, and how I lead is very important to getting this mission done.”   Ted Robertson 13:24 Lt. Col. Mark George and C1C Jaime Snyder, officer and cadet in charge of the 33rd NCLS. Congratulations on the event. Well done, and thank you for spending time here with us on the podcast today. Hearing from both the cadet perspective and the senior leadership behind NCLS makes one thing very clear: This symposium is intentionally designed not just to inspire but to prepare future leaders for moments when character will be tested. And that brings me to my first featured guest, a man whose life story embodies what combat and crisis-tested character truly means. Israel “DT” Del Toro, welcome to the podcast. It's an honor to be with you here at the National Character and Leadership Symposium. Senior Master Sgt. (Ret.) Israel Del Toro 14:18 Thank you, Ted. Thanks for having me. Good to see you again.   Ted Robertson 14:21 Yes, it's not the first time we've gotten to spend some time together. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 14:24 It's always great to talk to people, try and spread the word of the whole spark and the promise of my dad. Ted Robertson 14:30 The spark and the promises are the two things that really stood out to me about that interview — your heart and your soul man, from a very, very early age. Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 14:39 You know, losing my dad at 12, and then a year and a half later, losing my mom to a drunk driver, and being the oldest, you know, having to now kind of step up to be, like, the parent figure to my younger siblings. It was challenging.   Ted Robertson 14:55 Out of all of that, you wound up as a retired — you are currently a retired senior master sergeant. You took responsibility for your siblings, as you say, after you were orphaned as a teenager, and ultimately in the service combat-wounded airmen, and you survived catastrophic injuries against incredible odds, and that did not keep you down. One of the things that you did was you became an Invictus Games gold medalist. You're now a national speaker, and you talk a lot about resilience and purpose.   Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 15:27 Yes, sir. Yeah, Invictus, I won gold in shot put. It was pretty awesome. You know, everyone was just going nuts. Ted Robertson 15:37 You kind of make me feel like that was a soul-feeding, motivating time for you.   Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 15:42 It was. At that time, I was probably one of the senior guys, kind of. Obviously, I was one of the senior guys, wounded guys on the team, and so a lot of people looked up to me. And sometimes I wish — people would say, “Man, it's great. You're such trailblazer.” You're sometimes like, “Man, I just want to be one of the guys. I just, I just want to be No. 10.” You know, everything's all done, and no one's focusing everything on me. But it's a burden that I'm willing to carry on to try and continue to help people.   Ted Robertson 16:19 I want to linger here in your background a bit, because it's more than just impressive. I think impressive is pretty trite to describe what your background is. Let's start with before the Air Force and before combat, and just how your life demanded responsibility at such a young age. And what I want to ask is, how did stepping up for your family shape the leader that you became? Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 16:40 Well, I contribute that totally to my dad. I truly do. My dad was there. My dad, you know, I went everywhere with my dad. My dad — you know, he came from Mexico to this country, and he gave up a lot. You know, my family in Mexico is very wealthy, their ranchers and all that. He came here with nothing. And he always used to tell me, he's like, “Don't ever be envious of someone that's successful. Learn from them. Ask them questions.” He also used to tell me, “If you don't succeed, it's no one else's fault by yourself. Don't blame where you came from, where you grew up from, the situation. It is only your fault.” So my dad always had told me these little lessons and obviously the last lesson he gave me the night before he passed: Always take care of your family. And that just stayed with me, that kind of continued to shape me all throughout my life, all through my journey, at a young age to teenager to young adult to the military and to now, to this day, that really guided me to who I am. Now, it's like, I always hear people say, “Oh, man, I don't know if I can do it.” I was like, “Yeah, you can. You Just never know. You weren't ever put in that situation” I always believe — you always hear the fight or flight. “What are you gonna do?” I just fight, and I continue to fight. I just don't see the flight in me. And, you know, being the promise of take care of your family. Yes, I tell people, that originated with my family — my brothers and sisters. But throughout time it has evolved to now anyone I see that’s having a hard time that needs maybe to hear a story or read a book or hear a journey to help them find that spark, because I see them now as my family. I see that as my family, as my mission now.   Ted Robertson 18:50 Let's stay with spark for a minute. It's just one of my favorite things that you've ever talked about. You're down, you've been badly burned, you're worried about whether you're going to survive, and a medic is helping you out, and he does something for you. He says something to you.   Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 19:07 Yeah, you know, the medic — I always like to say, you know, yes, I'm Air Force. Those guys were Army, and we bust each other's chops. But, we're all brothers and sisters, and we're down range, you know? We take care of each other, we tell stories, we talk about our family. So these guys knew what had happened in my past with my family. So when I'm, you know, laying there, after I coordinate getting air, and I started the adrenaline going down, I started getting scared. I was having a hard time breathing, and I just wanted to lay down and sleep. The medic came and reminded me, “DT, remember what you promised your son, that you'll never let him grow without his dad. Fight for your son. You got to fight for your son.” And he's just making me yell it. You use anything you can to keep your guy motivated, to help that spark go, keep going. And that's what he did. He found that spark to keep me going, to keep me fighting until that medevac came and to get me on that helicopter, to the FOB, to the hospital, and then to eventually San Antonio. Ted Robertson 20:24 After that injury, that's when the fight shifted. You had to get off the battlefield. You had to get that out of your head. You had to start battling for your recovery. So what did courage look like when progress seemed like it was slow and at one point nothing was guaranteed? Israel Del Toro 20:46 Yeah, it, you know, when he had a shift from now being on the battlefield to now a different kind of battle and your recovery, your way of life — it's difficult because you have people telling you this is what your life's going to be. You know, being told that you're never going to walk again. You got to be in a hospital for another year and a half, respirator for the rest of your life and your military career is pretty much over. You know, I like to say there's two choices again: Who you're going to be? Are you going to take the easy path, which is, I'm going to sit in a chair, accept what they say, hate life, you know, curse the world. Are you going to take the hard path where I want to fight? I'm going to show you I can do this. I'm going to prove that I still have value, and I want to come out of this ahead and show not only my son but the rest of the world. You stay positive, you find that spark, you will come out ahead. Ted Robertson 21:48 All right, last question on your background, because we're going to roll all this into why you're here and what messages you want to share with the cadets and the attendees that are here. You did something I don't think most human beings would even think about after that ordeal that you had been through all those years, everything. You reenlisted, and it wasn't just a medical milestone. It wasn't because you could, it was a conscious decision. So what internal commitment had to come first for you to make that decision. Israel Del Toro 22:22 You know, I guess it was, for me it was I loved my job. I knew I could teach, I could be prepare these next guys to [be] the next generation operators. Ted Robertson 22:38 You’ve never stopped being committed. You've never stopped. So it brings you to NCLS. This is the 33rd year for NCLS, and when you speak to cadets here, what message do you want them to take away with them? Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 22:53 I guess my message more is about that when you're in the military, no matter whatever happens to you, you still have a role to play. Even when I got hurt, did I miss being with my teammates? Yes, but now refocusing, OK, I'm here in this hospital, and I see all these wounded guys here as I guess I'm wounded also, but in my head is like I was still NCO in the Air Force. I still have a job to do. Yes, I'm hurt, I'm wounded, but the job of a leader is, no matter where you're at, is you try and take care of your troops. You try and make things better for them, even if you never see any of the benefits — that is your role. And so that's kind of what I want to leave with these guys that, you know, you're going to always have  challenges throughout your career, but you’ve always got to remember it's not about you, it's about the guys under you to take care of you. You know, I had a group of cadets yesterday and they were just asking me about leadership. So you know what? The best way to be a great leader is to earn the respect of yourtroops. If you demand it, you're not a leader, but when you earned the respect and they'll die for you, that is the greatest feeling. You know, I gave an example of one of the best moments I had after my injury, is after I got hurt, they sent my replacement, and he comes in and obviously introduce him to the scout team, to the Army company, individuals in leadership, and then the SF team, and all these guys I'm supporting. And the guy comes in like, “Hey, I'm here to replace DT.” And all of them, “You can't replace DT.” And I told that was the best moment that that's the best moment of respect, because I had Army guys saying, “He's our guy.” And that's the thing I told them, it's like, when you get to that moment when your guys say, “Nah, he's our guy,” I was like, “He can't replace him.” That is where you've truly earned the respect of your troops.   Ted Robertson 25:21 Israel, the only word that I can pull out of myself right now for your journey to describe it as “remarkable,” and you continue to give of yourself, and that's a wonderful thing. Your opportunity for a couple of final thoughts here, before we close out.   Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 25:38 Final thoughts, man, putting me on the spot, aren’t you. I guess my final thoughts would be, you can't do it on your own. I'm not here right now, because I did it my own. I did it. I'm never gonna say that I did. I had friends, I had family, I had my wife that were by my side all throughout my journey to medical individuals. And I had those dark times, and I'm going down that spot, that rabbit hole, they were there to pull me out of it. So I think it's like, you know, don't try and do it on your own. We all need help. You know, the goal is, don't be prideful. There's a reason pride is one of the seven deadly sins. But, you know, ask for help, ask for advice. It's not going to hurt you. If anything, it will make you stronger and better. That's parting thoughts for the individuals listening to this. Ted Robertson 26:53 Perfect. Israel “DT” Del Toro, what a privilege to sit with you again. Want to say thank you from all of us for your service and continuing to lead by the example, which is a very rich and broad and deep example. Your story reminds us, and should remind us, that courage doesn't end with just survival. It always continues in service to others. Israel, thank you for being here.   Senior Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro 27:18 Thanks, Ted. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me again.   Ted Robertson 27:21 Israel's story reminds us that crisis and moral injury don't always arrive on a schedule, and that leaders are often expected to navigate those moments without ever having been taught how. That's where our next conversation takes us: into the intentional work of preparing leaders before crisis arrives. Maj. Tara Holmes, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you with us as part of the National Character and Leadership Symposium.   Maj. Tara Holmes  27:46 Thanks for having me; glad to be here.   Ted Robertson 27:48 You are currently deputy chief of staff here at Headquarters USAFA. You are formerly chief of cadet development for CCLD, the Center for Character and Leadership development. By way of background, you flew.   Maj. Tara Holmes  28:01 So I am a B-52 electronic warfare officer by trade, and then moved over into white jets. So instructed in the in the T-1 and I've kind of been in education and training for, I'd say, since about 2017.   Ted Robertson  28:19 1. You also hold a Doctorate in Business and Management, and you are an AETC master instructor. I will let you explain AETC.   Maj. Tara Holmes  28:27 Air Education Training Command, that's one of the that's our majcom that's responsible for education and training, and they have a pathway to become a master instructor. So I finished the qualifications for that while I was in white jets and working over at Squadron Officer School.   Ted Robertson  28:46 So let's talk about your work with Task Force Hope. We'll talk about what Task Force Hope is, but you are and have been a developer and facilitator of Task Force Hope, which is a crisis and moral injury leadership workshop.   Maj. Tara Holmes  29:01 Task Force Hope is about providing immediately useful tools to our workshop participants to prepare them to lead through crisis, whether that is no-kidding combat related, or whether that's crisis on the home front, going through stuff in life that's really hard. We work through a series of key concepts and exercises, through storytelling and participant engagement that hopefully provides our participants some self-awareness and some tools to recover as it deals with their relationships.   Ted Robertson  29:39 We talked about this. There's a lot of nuance in what you're teaching these people. There's discernment in it. Who should you talk to, who you should trust with information that you want to share? Because ultimately, some of this becomes a pressure release valve, right?   Maj. Tara Holmes  29:52 Yeah, so one of the key concepts that we talk about is worthiness, right? I think often people feel pressure to not share what they're going through because they don't think their problems are worthy of attention, whether theirs or someone else's. That's one thing that we spend a lot of time on. And like you said, you know, who to who to share with, and at what level, some people are more free with sharing than others, and that's OK. So we work through some frameworks that help illustrate how people can kind of work through those levels, or gain some self-awareness and some clarity around where they fall. Something that is a, you know, deep seated secret for you, maybe something that somebody else is willing to openly share, they just don't see it as that big of a deal. So it's definitely about self-awareness and learning some tools to help relieve some of the pressure and drain on our batteries, as it were, that comes from holding these things in.   Ted Robertson  30:52 People who are attending the workshop are going to learn some things that they may not realize are draining their batteries. You're teaching them to discern what those are, and to be careful to try to avoid those. It sounds like an example to me of things that we don't realize we do, that drains us, right, instead of energizes us.   Maj. Tara Holmes  31:10 So we use the kind of metaphor of a smartphone, right? So there are things that drain us, that are big, that we're taking a lot of energy to conceal the hard things that we're dealing with in our life. But then there's, like, the pesky background apps, there's the things that are always running in the background of our lives that drain our energy without us really even noticing it. You know, so for me as an officer, but also as a mom and a spouse, some of the things that are always draining my batteries are my to-do list, the laundry app, maybe social media apps. Sometimes I've probably spend way too much time reading the news these days. That's kind of always on for me. We have these big things that are draining our batteries, but then we have these like small things that are constantly going on, right? So Task Force Hope is about recognizing what those things are for us and then making a commitment to ourselves to make this space and time to recover.   Ted Robertson  32:09 So that brings us to a really unique place. You kind of function at the intersection of character, leadership and development pretty much every day. So how do you define character when you're responsible for shaping it across an entire Cadet Wing.   Maj. Tara Holmes  32:24 To me, character is the essence of who they are. It is how you show up day after day. It's the habits that you have. That's why, when you do something out of character, people are able to say that. You know, we talk about building character strengths as building blocks towards certain virtues. And virtues is really excellence of character. So it's easy to talk about how to be an excellent athlete, or how to be an excellent academic, right? And that's one of our core values, is being excellent. Well, how do you have excellent character? It's really about leveraging your character strengths in a way that can lead you to be more virtuous, and that's the goal.   Ted Robertson  33:05 You've served, both operationally and as an instructor. Tell me how those things shape the way you think about preparing leaders not just to perform but to endure.   Maj. Tara Holmes  33:19 What comes to mind is the importance of training and building those habits. We're, you know, in the previous question, we talked about it in terms of character. You know, you can, you can use any kind of training. It's about building readiness, right? And being able to build those habits so that when you are faced with a challenge, you have a way to work through the challenge, right? That really came out for me, both operationally and as an instructor. So operationally, you rely on your training to get your job done, and then as an instructor, you're helping others build those habits so that one day when your students are faced with challenges, they can rely on their training as well.   Ted Robertson  34:01 We've talked a bit about your experiences and how they shape the way you think about preparing leaders, not just to perform but to endure. And now let's bring it right down to the direct connection between Task Force Hope and why you are here talking about this program to attendees at NCLS. When we talk about Task Force Hope, it's a program that is really designed to prepare leaders to navigate crisis and recover from both emotional and moral injury. What can you tell me about a gap that a workshop like this fills, that traditional leadership education sometimes or often misses?   Maj. Tara Holmes  34:38 Task Force Hope is preventative in nature. It's training to prevent people from letting their burdens get the best of them so that they can show up. They have the tools to show up fully charged when stuff hits the van. And not only that they do that for themselves, but then they can help their teammates or their subordinates also get there. It's self-awareness, because we all perform self-care differently, and what you need to recharge your batteries is different from the way that I would do it. So it's being intentional and having some tools to be able to identify what works for you and then how to make space in your life, and building that commitment to yourself, to make that space so that the next time that you face a crisis, you're not facing it at 10%, you're full up, you're ready to go. So it's that sustained self-care, if that's what you want to call it. And it's important to say that you know, in a 75-minute session, we're really doing our best to provide exposure to key concepts and these tools. What we hope is that people walk out with the start of something. It's not it's not the end of their work to be done.   Ted Robertson  35:54 How often do you hear the question, “Why didn't I hear this earlier in my career?”   Maj. Tara Holmes  36:00 Every workshop. Last year, after the workshop, we had a 1970-something graduate say that exact thing. For me personally, I had four people say something, you know, “Hey, I was a cadet here in ’90-something, ’80-something, 2000-something. And, you know, I really wish that I would have had this earlier.” So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to bring it as early as we can.   Ted Robertson  36:26 OK, so our last question of our visit, if cadets take just one lesson from Task Force Hope and NCLs this year, what is your hope for that lesson to be?   Maj. Tara Holmes  36:39 My hope is that they're worth it. No problem is too big or too small to be dealt with, and like we talked about earlier, I think often people keep things to themselves because they feel like they shouldn't bother others, or there's their supervisors or their teammates with what's going on in their lives. And that's a drain. Like, that's a drain on the system. It eats up your energy, right? But our cadets are worth it. Whatever they're dealing with, big or small, is worthy of being addressed. I hope that's the takeaway, and that we all deal with things, right? We don't always know what other people are dealing with.   Ted Robertson  37:22 Maj. Holmes. Thank you for the work you're doing to prepare future leaders, not just to lead in moments of clarity, but to stand firm in moments of crisis. We appreciate you being here.   Maj. Tara Holmes  37:32 Thanks, Ted.   Ted Robertson  37:33 That focus on preservation, resilience and moral courage brings us to our next conversation, one shaped by combat, captivity and a life of service under the most demanding conditions. Coming up next, my conversation with Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Edward Mechenbier. Gen. Mechenbier, welcome to the podcast. It is a huge honor having you here, sir.   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 37:56 I hope you feel that way in a half hour so well,   Ted Robertson  37:59 Well, the conversation does promise to be interesting, because your life is… interesting. That was a pregnant pause, sir.   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:07 Yeah, I've enjoyed it. It's different.   Ted Robertson  38:11 Just to sort of frame things, you retired as a major general, and what year was that, sir,   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier 38:15 2004   Ted Robertson  38:16 64. And you were USAFA Class of ’64. You're a Vietnam-era pilot, having flown F-4s, you were shot down on your 113th combat mission, but that was you also your 80th over North Vietnam. OK, prisoner of war. Then for almost those entire six years following that, being shot down. You come with 3,600 flying hours across lots of different aircraft.   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  38:42 I was privileged fly either for primary capability or for familiarization with 43 different airplanes.   Ted Robertson  38:49 And now you describe yourself as a lifelong advocate for veterans and public service.   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  38:56 Well, yeah, I mean, I go to a couple prisons in Ohio, and “work with” is probably overstating my role. Veterans who are incarcerated for long periods of time. But my role is just to go there, spend some time, shoot the breeze with them, no agenda, no desired learning objective and let them know that somebody outside knows that they're there.   Ted Robertson  39:19 What I want to do is spend some time in your background. All right, I want to start with combat and captivity and how that tests leadership in its most extreme forms. And this is in course in keeping with the theme of NCLS here, what did character mean to you when circumstances were entirely beyond your control?   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  39:38 The Vietnamese kept us in small groups of one and two or three guys. I mean, we never really until near the end and later on when we got a little organization. But it got very down, very personal, when at one time, I was in a cell with four guys, three Class of 1964 Air Force Academy graduates and one poor Oklahoma State University graduate, and amongst the four of us, we had a senior ranking officer. And of course, you got the same rank, you go alphabetical. And so we made Ron Bliss the senior ranking officer in our room. We had a communication system. We had guidelines that, you know, which were basically consistent with the code of conduct. You know, name, rank, serial number, date of birth, don't answer further questions. Keep faith with your fellow positions. That was the key. Keep faith. Never do anything that you'd be embarrassed to tell somebody you did.   Ted Robertson  40:34 What you're explaining is how different leadership looks, and even how you describe it, how different it is from command. So now it comes down to trust and accountability and courage, and how do those show up in those conditions?   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  40:51 It was really a matter of, we always knew we were still in the fight. That was one thing that was with us, and so you just kind of conducted yourself with, OK, I'm not going to let myself be used. Now, we also knew that the more you resisted pushed back, the less likely they were to make you go meet an antiwar delegation or write a confession or do something else like that. So they tend to pick on, if you will, the low-hanging fruit or the easier guy to get to. So we always wanted to set the bar just a little bit out of their reach.   Ted Robertson  41:25 All right, having gone through all of that, it really can change people quite profoundly. So when you look back at it, what leadership lessons stayed with you long after you got out of captivity?   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  41:39 In the movie Return of Honor. Capt. Mike McGrath, Navy guy, describes the guys in their ability to resist torture and do things. And that's what you learn. Everybody's got a breaking point. If mine's here and somebody else's is there, that doesn't make me better or worse than them. So you learn to appreciate the talents and the weaknesses. If you know the foibles, the cracks in everybody around you and not to exploit them, but to understand them, and then to be the kind of leader that that they need.   Ted Robertson  42:12 Sir, one of the recurring themes when you're discussing leadership with leaders right is knowing something about each of your people so that you can relate to them in a way that that works for them and motivates them.   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  42:23 Yeah. Mark Welch, who's also a graduate and he is a chief of staff of the Air Force, always had a saying: “If you don't know what's going on, it's because you didn't ask.”   Ted Robertson  42:32 Now we're going to roll all that into your long journey between captivity and your visit here to NCLS this year. When you're speaking to the cadets at this year's event, what's your main hope? What do you hope they understand about courage before they even ever face combat?   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  42:54 Well, courage is a reaction to a clear and present threat. Nobody knows how they're gonna — know he's gonna say, OK, I'm gonna go to Vietnam and I want to get shot down, and when the Vietnamese capture me, I'm going to give them a middle finger and I'm going to be the meanest bad ass and hardest-to-break prisoner. Yeah, it's how you respond to the to the immediate perception of bodily harm or being used or something else like that. So courage is, yeah, it just happens. It's not something that you can put in a package and say, “OK, I've got courage.” It's how you respond to the situation, because you might respond quite differently than what you think.   Ted Robertson  43:35 And I have to say, you presented your story and you delivered your message in kind of a unique way. You drew from some contemporary references, specifically three clips from a movie that you like, that I was curious. How did you sum up your entire life in three movie clips from Madagascar? How did you do that?   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  43:57 Well, the three movie clips — when I watched the movie, I was looking at it, I have got two favorite movies. Madagascar is one, and the other is a Kelsey Grammer movie, Down Periscope. I mean, I think that is a perfect study in in leadership. But in the movie Madagascar, the premise was penguins can't fly, but yet it opens up with them applying resource, innovation imagination, and they eventually get this airplane to fly. OK, great. Success. Well, like everything else in life, things go wrong, and you got to have, No. 1, a backup plan, an exit ramp or a control mechanism for the disaster that's pending. So that's the second movie clip we saw. And then the third one was towards the end of the movie, when the crash landing has happened and the skipper asks for an accounting, and he's told that all passengers are accounted for, except two. And he says, that's the number I can live with. And the message there is, you go through life — you're going to have successes, but you're going to have failures, and failure has a cost, and it's not always pleasant, but that's OK, because that's life.   Ted Robertson  45:15 How do you explain how leaders can prepare themselves morally and mentally for moments they can't predict or control.   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  45:25 Watch movies like Madagascar and Down Periscope. You know, there's a breadth of unintentional, if you will, guidance on how to be a leader, if you know where to look or if you're looking for it. I mean, that's part of the whole progress program at the Academy. Nobody's going to say, OK, here's a scenario, lead these resources to a proper conclusion. It's kind of like, OK, here's the situation. What do we do? What can we do? What can't we do? It's like, in my presentation, I talk about being able to run across a pasture in nine seconds, in 10 seconds, but if the bull can do it, you're in trouble. So you got to realign your thinking, you got to realign your goals and you got to realign the application of resources. So that's the leadership part, right there. It's a realization of what you can and what you can't do. It's a realization of what you, your people, your resources, can and can't do. It's a realization of what the technology you have at your disposal to do your mission can and can't do. So it's all about workarounds and being flexible. And then the other thing is, we live in a world that just seems to be everything's got a prescription and a protocol on exactly how to do everything. Doesn't work that way. You got to be able to go left and right. You got to be able to be a little imaginative.   Ted Robertson  46:42 What parting thought did you leave the cadets with?   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  46:45 That failure is part of life. It's not death. And I'm part of an organization called American 300 — we go around and talk to young enlisted people and all the services to get them to understand that failure is a learning opportunity. It's not a dagger in the heart, and don't be afraid or ashamed to try, because if you don't, you'll never know what your true potential is. So with the cadets, we close with that last part from the movie Madagascar that basically said, OK, success comes with a price. Be aware and accept it.   Ted Robertson  47:23 All right, we've got to close it out here, but recap, if you would one more time that message that you want cadets to leave here with from having heard you speak.   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  47:32 You are now a living, breathing, viable, productive part of our United States Air Force. You bring talents that are unique. Apply them, but understand that they're all very transitory, and you have part of a larger community. If you stick with a community rather than the “I did,” “I want,” I have,” you'll go a long way.   Ted Robertson  47:54 All right, and stepping outside of that very briefly for your final thoughts, what would you like to leave listeners with today.   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  48:01 Be proud of the young men and women who are in our military now, not just those at the Air Force Academy. You know, our whole military structure has changed over the years. You know, it's a dynamic world. You got to be flexible and embrace change. We're so reluctant to change. Change is fine, except when you try to change me, is the old saying, but we all have to change. We have to be part of the world in which we live.     Ted Robertson  48:26 Gen. Mechenbier, I want to thank you from all of us for being here sharing those leadership lessons of yours and a lifetime of service that will continue to shape others — future leaders — for a very, very long time to come. We appreciate you very much.   Maj. Gen. Edward Mechenbier  48:43 Thank you much.   Ted Robertson  48:44 Our final conversation brings us to leadership at the strategic level, where decisions affect institutions, alliances and the nation itself. Capt. Charles Plumb, welcome to the podcast today, sir.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  48:56 Thanks, Ted. Appreciate being here.   Ted Robertson  48:59 It is a privilege to have you. You retired as a Navy captain in 1991 and you have not slowed down, not one inch since. We're going to talk a little bit about the work that you're doing in some very interesting spaces. And what informs all of that. Naval Academy, Class of ’64.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:15 Yep, the Great Class of ’64.     Ted Robertson  49:17 The great —that's how you express class pride?   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:20 Everybody knows the Great Class of ’64.   Ted Robertson  49:23 So you are an Annapolis man.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:25 I am, in fact.   Ted Robertson  49:26 No doubt. And a pilot. You flew F-4 Phantoms, and you are a Vietnam-era pilot. You spent most of your time over North Vietnam. Sometimes you got sent to South Vietnam, depending on what was going on. But you said that you have flown 74 combat missions.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  49:45 Actually 74 and a half, Ted. I have one more takeoff and I have landings.   Ted Robertson  49:50 We should remember that, because it's a very important part of your life we haven't talked about yet. Since you got out of captivity, and then you retired a few years later, you became a published author and a speaker, and as such, you have been to every state, several countries, 5,000 presentations you've delivered in the leadership and character development space. Is there any reason you should not be here at NCLS?   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  50:24 Well, I appreciate that. You know, this is a great symposium, and I'm really proud to contribute to it.   Ted Robertson  50:32 Captain, you are a former POW.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  50:36 Yes, I was shot down on my 75th mission and captured, tortured and spent the next 2,103 days in communist prison camps.   Ted Robertson  50:49 You said you got moved around a lot.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  50:52 We did. I was in six different camps, and some of those camps more than once. We never really understood why. We kind of suspected that they wanted to try to deny any fraternization with their guards, and they wanted to keep us on our toes, because they recognized that being military guys, we were going to have leadership, and we were going to have organization and community and we were going to organize, to fight them, and they didn't want that. So they moved us around and kind of shuffled us up, which didn't work. We always had a military organization in every camp that I ever went to.   Ted Robertson  51:31 You found ways to support each other. You found ways to have a leadership structure, even in captivity.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  51:39 We were all fighter pilots or air crews and most of us were we, you know, we had 10 Air Force Academy grads from ’64 in five Naval Academy grads from ’64 and so we had in a lot of other academy grads. I don't remember how many, but probably 70 total academy grads. And so, you know, we were, we were dedicated. We were lifers. We were, you know, we were very focused guys, which helped out a lot that we knew a lot about military leadership.   Ted Robertson  52:11 You grew up in the Midwest, and you married a Midwestern girl.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  52:15 I did, my high school sweetheart the day after I graduated from Annapolis, we got married in the chapel, and my buddies were holding up their swords as we came out of the chapel. So it was a beautiful day.   Ted Robertson  52:27 Let's go back to how you found your way to the Naval Academy.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  52:32 I was a farm kid from Kansas. Never seen the ocean, never been out of the four states of Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri. Never been in an airplane, and I needed an education. Found that the Naval Academy offered me an education.   Ted Robertson  52:50 Outside of Air Force Academy circles, you probably already know that we think of, you know, salty sea dog sailors when we think of people going in the Navy, but you chose aviation.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  53:02 I did. As a kid, I would see these Piper Cubs fly over and I was fascinated by flight, and wondered if I'd ever be able to ride in an airplane. That was my thought when I was a kid. I didn't have any hopes of ever being a pilot, you know, let alone a fighter pilot. That was, I was out of the realm. Nobody, as I grew up, ever told me that I could do that, or I should do that, or, you know, it would be a hope of mine to ever pilot an airplane. But I went to the Naval Academy and found out that was one of the options, and I took advantage of that option.   Ted Robertson  53:43 Yeah, and it led you, of course, to over North Vietnam, and the rest is that part of your history   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  53:51 Launched on the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk on my wife's birthday, the 5th of November, wave goodbye to her, and promised her I'd be back in eight months. I didn't make it.   Ted Robertson  54:04 Hard. Very hard story to hear. Let's talk about all of that informing your presentation now, again, 5,000 of these delivered in the leadership and character development space, but you talk a lot about, in your presentation — and you keynoted here at NCLS — the mental game side of this, the integrity, the choices that you have to make, and character that sort of frames all of that.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  54:38 My message to the cadets, and really to most of my audiences, is around challenge and adversity. And I tell the cadets that they work awfully hard trying to get a degree. They study, they go to computers, they read books all to get a degree. And what I point out to them is that more important than the degree that they will get from the Air Force Academy is a character that they build while they are here. That the integrity first, you know, is part of their motto. And if, in fact, they can learn and live that integrity, if they can learn and live the commitment that they have, if they can learn in and live these kind of ethereal things, the things that you can't measure, things you can't define, the things that, you know, that crop up in your in your mind, in the back of your mind, are more important than the lessons they learn from a computer. And so that's kind of my message.   Ted Robertson  55:49 You know, we're in a leadership laboratory here. The art and the science is character development. And you're talking about a kind of character that leads people to make good decisions and make those decisions with integrity in mind. How did that play into your captivity and getting you through that?   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  56:09 You know, of course, I studied leadership at the Naval Academy, and I think that my period of experience more than teaching me anything, it validated what I had learned. And the whole idea — and I love the fact that this is called, you know, the Character and Leadership Symposium, because lots of times you see leadership without character, that's a negative kind of leadership. And if a leader does not have character, he doesn't last very long, and he's not very effective. And so if you can keep your character up front, the leadership can follow easily. And that's pretty much what we had in the prison camps. Several of the qualities of leadership that I promote are the things that almost came natural in a prison camp. First of all, we had to find a focus, a reason. We had to find, you know — and that was developed by our leadership in the prison camp. Return with honor — that was our motto, return with honor. And we all rallied around that.   Ted Robertson  57:22 So all of that said, you're standing here in front of a really big group of people as a keynote speaker, lot of cadets, mostly cadets, yeah.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  57:31 Now there were cadets. I'm speaking on a panel with Ed Mechenbier, my good buddy, and we're on a panel with mostly cadets. The first presentation, the keynote was by invitation only. So there were a number of civilians in the audience, number of cadets. There were Naval Academy midshipmen in my audience today. And we had ROTC people, and, you know, from all over the country. So it was quite a wide audience.   Ted Robertson  58:04 Quite a wide audience. And so if we were just focusing on what you leave with cadets, what do you want them to take away from their experience today?   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  58:15 I hope they understand my message, that more important than the degree that they graduate with, is the character that they graduate with, and the importance of the integrity that that they learned here, because that was vital in the prison camp, is integrity. We had to have each other's back, and when we when we finally were released, we refused to be released until all the sick, injured and enlisted men had gone home, and it was a question of integrity, is a question that this is the right thing to do. It's not the easy thing to do. Largely, the integrity thing to do is not the easiest thing to do, and that's what I wanted to leave with the cadets. In addition, I want them to know that regardless of what situation they're in, they still have a choice, and their choice is the way they respond to the surrounding adversity situation that they're in.   Ted Robertson  59:21 An Annapolis grad of ’64, Midwest kid from Kansas who makes it into the cockpit, and like you said, 74 and a half flights, then some time in captivity, then to a published author with thousands of presentations all over the country, and some in in other countries. What final thoughts would you like to leave today, sir?   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  59:47 Well, you know, I think I've already told you, you know, you're a great interviewer, Ted, and I appreciate your questions. I think, finally, this whole idea of self-determination and I think that we all, and not just the cadets, but graduates and families and business people, families. You know that we all have choices, and sometimes when we deny the choice and give up that ability to make our life better for ourselves. And you know, we do it sometimes even when we’re not even thinking about it. It's just automatic to blame somebody else for the problem, and in doing so, we give away that choice.   Ted Robertson  1:00:34 Don't give away the choice. Yeah, build that character and stick by your integrity all the time. Capt. J. Charles Plumb, what a privilege it is to meet you, sir. Glad that you're here at NCLs and keynoting like you are, and I do hope that our paths cross again.   Capt. J. Charles Plumb  1:00:52 Ted, thank you very much. I appreciate your willingness to tell my story. Thanks for that.   Ted Robertson  1:00:57 You're welcome, sir. Thank you. Ted Robertson Close As we've heard throughout these conversations, courage isn't a single moment. It's a lifelong practice, from cadets just beginning their journey to leaders shaped by combat and crisis to senior commanders responsible for forces and futures. Character is tested when certainty disappears and it's revealed by how we choose to lead. That's the challenge of the National Character and Leadership Symposium, and it's a challenge that extends far beyond these walls. I'm Ted Robertson, thank you for joining me for our Long Blue Line Podcast Network coverage of the 33rd National Character and Leadership Symposium. This podcast was recorded on Saturday, Feb. 21, 2026.         The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation

Lasting Lessons: A Long Blue Leadership Retrospective

In our Season 4 retrospective, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99 and Wyatt Hornsby, the Association & Foundation’s senior vice president of marketing and communications, revisit the clips that stuck with them.  - “Mind. Body. Spirit.”  - “What can I do for others?”  - “Be humble. Be credible. Be approachable.” These aren’t just soundbites. They’re leadership gold. This episode will remind you why these conversations matter. TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE 1. Lead from mind, body, and spirit * Sustainable leadership requires caring for mental clarity, physical stamina, and spiritual/emotional grounding. 2. Leadership is a daily practice, not a position * Being a leader shows up in consistent habits and choices, not just in moments when you have the spotlight or a title. 3. Mental health fuels clarity and creativity * Protecting your mindset and mental health enables focus, problem-solving, and innovation. 4. Physical readiness underpins reliability * Long hours and high-demand environments require physical energy and stamina so you can show up for others when it counts. 5. Spiritual/emotional health anchors your “why” * Knowing your purpose and values helps you make grounded decisions and stay steady in pressure or uncertainty. 6. Shift from “Why me?” to “What can I do for others?” * Transform challenges by asking how you can serve your team and community, rather than focusing on personal hardship. 7. Selfless leadership unlocks others’ potential * When you lead by example and create opportunities for others to excel, people gain confidence and stretch toward their own “superhero” potential. 8. Humility, credibility, and approachability are core leadership traits * Effective leaders are humble about their limits, credible in what they say and do, and approachable enough that others feel safe coming to them. 9. Trust and respect are earned, not assumed * Especially with large teams and many colleagues, you must earn trust and respect through consistent behavior, not rely on rank or title. 10. Leadership is ongoing presence and intention * Leadership “doesn’t start with a title”; it’s about showing up with intention and care, being present when it matters, and putting others first over the long term.   CHAPTERS 0:00:07 Introduction & Episode Setup 0:00:54 Intro – Leadership as Daily Practice (Tanji Johnson Bridgeman) 0:01:19 Mind, Body, Spirit in Leadership 0:02:06 Reflection on Intentional, Holistic Leadership 0:02:39Intro – Selfless Leadership & Inspiring Others (Dave Harden) 0:02:59 Transforming Challenges & Leading Selflessly 0:03:26 Reflection on Timeless, Presence-Based Leadership 0:04:03 Intro – Humble, Credible, Approachable (Rep. August Pfluger) 0:04:30 Core Leadership Tenets in Public Service 0:05:37 Reflection on Trust, Respect, and Credibility 0:06:13 Season Four Recap & Invitation to Explore Past Episodes 0:06:57 New Biweekly, Year-Round Schedule Announcement 0:07:45 Closing – Core Leadership Themes & Thank-Yous       ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://www.longblueleadership.org/]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS       FULL TRANSCRIPT Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership. I'm Naviere Walkewicz. Wyatt Hornsby: 0:10 And I'm Wyatt Hornsby, and today we're hitting pause for a moment and we're going to look back. Naviere Walkewicz 0:14 Yes, this episode is our Season 4 retrospective. We're revisiting some of the leadership moments that really stayed with us long after the microphones were turned off. Wyatt Hornsby 0:25 We went back through the season and selected three clips among many amazing ones, each from a guest who brought a different perspective on leadership, but all with a common thread: responsibility to people. Naviere Walkewicz 0:36 Absolutely. We're going to play each clip, Wyatt and I will react to it and talk about why those still matter. Wyatt Hornsby 0:43 And at the end of the show, we'll also look ahead. We've got upcoming guests to share and a couple of important changes and exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published going forward. Naviere Walkewicz 0:54 Absolutely. So let's get started. All right. Our first clip comes from Tanji Johnson Bridgeman, Class of ’97. Her episode stood out because of how she directly spoke about leadership being a daily practice. Now as you listen, pay close attention to how she talks about the health of your mind, body and spirit, and how those together form the foundation of great leaders. Tanji Johnson Bridgeman 1:19 Mind, body, spirit. Why is that important? Because in anything, any philosophies that we adopt, we have to really see where it's important. So when you think of what is an officer — what is a leader going to have to do with their mind? This is where they have to have clarity. It's going to help with focus, creativity, to innovate new solutions. And so we need to be able to prioritize our mindset and our mental health. And then there's the body, right? So a lot of us are going to be going on deployments. We're going to work long hours. Our body is what's going to give us the fuel and energy and the stamina to get through a day. It's literally bringing our energy. And then you think about the spirit, and this one is really special, and it's probably the most neglected. So when you think about the spirit, this is where you're going to anchor in with your emotional health. What is your purpose? What is your why? Wyatt Hornsby 2:06 That is such a great insight. And what really resonates with me, Naviere, is Tanji’s emphasis on health and wellness is a critical component of leading others — that integration. Naviere Walkewicz 2:16 Yes, well, you know, we both really take our health and wellness seriously, but I think to the level that she really talked about it being — she really had this quiet confidence, and I think that also spoke volumes, right? It's not just about being physical, but being in your mind, body and spirit really well. And so I think that when we think about how that plays into being really intentional, people will experience you differently. Wyatt Hornsby 2:39 All right. Our second clip comes from Dave Harden, Class of ’95. Dave brought perspective shaped by high-stakes environments where leadership is about inspiring others. Listen for how he connects looking outside of yourself, for your team with leading them to their own greatness. Dave Harden 2:55 If we can transform, if we can pause, if we can look up right and see the faith and the what if and not say, say, Why is this happening to me? But what can I do with it? What can I do for others? How can I connect in a meaningful way? You will transform your life. You'll transform your leadership, and you'll transform the people around you, because they'll be inspired to be superheroes in their own right. Naviere Walkewicz 3:26 Wow. That was a very powerful clip. And I just remember his conversation being really powerful, because there were so many moments where we talked about, you know, when you're really leaning into the fire. But this particular clip — what spoke to me, Wyatt — he was saying, if you lead selflessly and by example, looking for others to have opportunities to excel, they actually find the confidence in what they're able to give and do and striving for more. Thought that's really powerful, for sure. Wyatt Hornsby 3:51 Agree Naviere, and that's really timeless leadership. Whether you're leading in uniform or outside of it, people trust leaders who are present when it counts. And Dave really personifies that. Naviere Walkewicz 4:03 Yes, our third clip comes from Congressman August Pfluger, Class of 2000. When we spoke to the congressman, he brought a unique perspective, one shaped by military service and now public service. His leadership journey didn't end when he took off the uniform. It simply evolved. And this clip reflects that sense of responsibility to those one leads. To do that successfully means establishing credibility. Let's roll the clip. August Pfluger 4:30 Growing up professionally in a fighter squadron, there were three tenants that they, even though I didn't go to weapons school, they teach you: that's to be humble, credible and approachable. I mean, think about that. Those are the core tenants of who our lead warriors are. And that is not what you see. When you think of politicians. You think, Well, they're braggadocios and annoying, and, you know, OK, I hope I don't fall into that category. I need to do some self-reflection every once while, but, but I've got a staff of almost 40 people, and I have 434 other colleagues that you have to work with. So you better believe that you've got to be humble, because there are people who are better than you in every category, you better believe that being approachable in this job is really important, because people are going to come to you and they're going to need something, or you're going to need something from them, and if you don't have the credibility of what you're talking about or what you're leading, then you're not going to get anything done. Wyatt Hornsby 5:37 Great insights from the congressman. And that's really one of those leadership truths that carries across every domain for him now in Washington, DC, and the congressman is reminding us that leadership doesn't start with a title. Naviere Walkewicz 5:50 I really appreciate that. I think specifically when he said he had over 400 colleagues, that really stood out to me about not leading with the title, but really leading with your virtue and being there. And so I love the fact that he talked about earning trust respect, and then with that comes credibility. Wyatt Hornsby 6:06 And being approachable. Naviere Walkewicz 6:08 Being approachable. Yes, we see him doing that all the time. Wyatt Hornsby 6:13 All right, so let's look ahead. As we close out this retrospective, we also want to take a moment to look forward, but before we look forward, let me just say that these were three conversations among so many great ones from Season 4. Naviere Walkewicz 6:26 It was hard to choose, wasn't it wise? Wyatt Hornsby 6:28 It was so hard to choose. And we encourage you, if you have not listened to all of Season 4, check them out, because there's so many wonderful guests here. Thanks for the great job you did hosting those conversations. Naviere Walkewicz 6:40 Always my pleasure. Always my pleasure. In fact, gosh, going back, I think, all the way to Season 1, there's always someone, a guest, that our graduates and other listeners, and gosh, our viewers can really resonate with. There's some wonderful leadership lesson down there. Wyatt Hornsby 6:53 And easy to find. You can you can get our episodes anywhere you get your podcast. Naviere Walkewicz 6:57 Yes, we have some outstanding guests coming up. These are leaders from across different fields, and we're excited to bring them into our Long Blue Leadership conversation. Wyatt Hornsby 7:06 And we also want to share a couple of important and very exciting changes to how Long Blue Leadership will be published. Naviere Walkewicz 7:12 Yes, we are moving away from seasons, and we're shifting to biweekly, year-round release schedule. This is so you get Long Blue Leadership all the time, year round. Right to you where you are. Wyatt Hornsby 7:23 Very exciting, and that means more consistent leadership conversations. No long breaks, just ongoing dialog. Naviere Walkewicz 7:30 Absolutely you just go to longblueleadership.org [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fleadership.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cbryan.grossman%40usafa.org%7C3476f539e19142f63e0908de72e9989e%7Ce6421ec329ed4f09a13a96e310c5ba80%7C0%7C0%7C639074544794992308%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Wx9mUa88aW34NxqrnpFd91XIEjyktENhtJrmbA13aao%3D&reserved=0] to find your Long Blue Leadership conversation. So going forward, we'll publish our annual retrospective, released each December, a dedicated moment where white and I come together to reflect on the leadership lessons we heard throughout the year. Wyatt Hornsby 7:45 Very exciting, and Season Four reminded us that leadership isn't about having all the answers. It's about showing up with intention and care, being humble, being approachable and putting others first. Naviere Walkewicz 7:57 We're grateful to every guest who shared their perspective and to you for being part of this incredible community. Wyatt Hornsby 8:03 And Naviere, while we're at it too, let's go ahead and thank Ted, our incredible producer of Long Blue Leadership. Naviere Walkewicz 8:09 Thanks, Ted. We appreciate you so much. This doesn't happen without your magic. So thank you very much. Wyatt Hornsby 8:13 Yeah, thank you, Ted and everybody. Thanks for listening. I'm Wyatt Hornsby. Naviere Walkewicz 8:18 And I'm Naviere Walkewicz. We'll see you on Long Blue Leadership.     KEYWORDS Mind, body, spirit, leadership, daily practice, mental health, physical health, spiritual health, wellness, emotional health, purpose, why, selfless leadership, service, inspiring others, transformation, high-stakes environments, team, connection, trust, respect, credibility, humility, humble, approachable, virtuous leadership, public service, military service, fighter squadron, colleagues, responsibility to people, presence, intention, care, confidence, long blue leadership, podcast, retrospective, season four, biweekly schedule, year-round release, annual retrospective, leadership lessons, graduates, listeners, community   The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation

Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership

Purpose, trust and laughter matter.  SUMMARY Dr. Heather Wilson ’82, former secretary of the U.S. Air Force, and Gen. Dave Goldfein ’83, former chief of staff of the Air Force, highlight the human side of leadership — honoring family, listening actively and using humility and humor to build strong teams. Their book, Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership, challenges leaders to serve first and lead with character.   SHARE THIS PODCAST LINKEDIN  [https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/get-back-up-lessons-in-servant-leadership/?token=608689a064d74c9679bd8b1aaa4ac0e3] |  FACEBOOK  [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/get-back-up-lessons-in-servant-leadership/?token=608689a064d74c9679bd8b1aaa4ac0e3]   TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE 1. Leadership Is a Gift and a Burden – Leaders are entrusted with the well-being and development of others, but that privilege entails tough, sometimes lonely, responsibilities. 2. Servant Leadership – True leadership is about enabling and supporting those you lead, not seeking personal advancement or recognition. 3. Influence and Teamwork – Lasting change comes from pairing authority with influence and working collaboratively; no leader succeeds alone. 4. Embrace Failure and Own Mistakes – Effective leaders accept institutional and personal failures and use them as learning and teaching moments. 5. Family Matters – Great leaders recognize the significance of family (their own and their team’s) and demonstrate respect and flexibility for personal commitments. 6. Be Data-Driven and Strategic – Borrow frameworks that suit the mission, be clear about goals, and regularly follow up to ensure progress. 7. Listening Is Active – Truly listening, then responding openly and honestly—even when you can’t “fix” everything—builds trust and respect. 8. Humility and Curiosity – Never stop learning or questioning; continual self-improvement is a hallmark of strong leaders. 9. Celebrate and Share Credit – Spread praise to those working behind the scenes; leadership is not about personal glory, but lifting others. 10. Resilience and Leading by Example – “Getting back up” after setbacks inspires teams; how a leader recovers can motivate others to do the same.   CHAPTERS 0:00:00 - Introduction and Welcome 0:00:21 - Guest Backgrounds and Family Legacies 0:02:57 - Inspiration for Writing the Book 0:05:00 - Defining Servant Leadership 0:07:46 - Role Models and Personal Examples   CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org]   <---> Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org]  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org]      ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://www.longblueleadership.org/]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT SPEAKERS Host: Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz '99 Guests: Dr. Heather Wilson ’82, former Secretary of the U.S. Air Force, and former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. (Ret.) Dave Goldfein ’83  Naviere Walkewicz 0:09 Welcome to Focus on Leadership, our accelerated leadership series. I'm your host, Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. I'm honored to welcome two exceptional leaders whose careers and friendship have helped shape the modern Air Force, while inspiring thousands to serve with purpose and courage. Our guests today are Dr. Heather Wilson, USAFA Class of ’82, the 24th secretary of the Air Force, now president at the University of Texas El Paso. And Gen. Dave Goldfein, Class of ’83, the 21st chief of staff of the Air Force. Both are United States Air Force Academy distinguished graduates. Together, they've written Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership, a powerful reflection on resilience, humility and the courage to lead to adversity. And our conversation today will dive deeply into the lessons they learned at the highest levels of command and in public service, and what it means to serve others first. Thank you for being here. Gen. Dave Goldfein 1:08 Thank you for having us. Naviere Walkewicz 1:09 Absolutely. This is truly an honor. And I mentioned that I read this incredible book, and I'm so excited for us to jump into it, but before we do, I think it's really important for people to know you more than the secretary and the chief. I mean chief, so Gen. Goldfein, you came from an Air Force family. Your dad was a colonel, and ma'am, your grandpa was a civil aviator, but you really didn't have any other military ties. Dr. Heather Wilson 1:29 Well, my grandfather was one of the first pilots in the RAF in World War I, then came to America, and in World War II, flew for his new country in the Civil Air Patrol. My dad enlisted by that a high school and was a crew chief between the end of the Second World War and the start of Korea, and then he went back home and became a commercial aviator and a mechanic. Naviere Walkewicz 1:52 I love that. So your lines run deep. So maybe you can share more and let our listeners get to know you more personally. What would you like to share in this introduction of Gen. Goldfein and Dr. Wilson? Gen. Dave Goldfein 2:02 Well, I'll just tell you that if you know much about Air Force culture you know we all get call signs, right. Nicknames, right? I got a new one the day I retired, and you get to use it. It's JD, which stands for “Just Dave.” Naviere Walkewicz 2:17 Just Dave! Yes, sir. JD. I will do my best for that to roll off my tongue. Yes, sir. Gen. Dave Goldfein 2:25 And I will just say congratulations to you for your two sons who are currently at the Academy. How cool is that? Naviere Walkewicz 2:31 Thank you. We come from a Long Blue Line family. My dad was a grad, my uncle, my brother and sister, my two boys. So if I get my third son, he'll be class of 2037, so, we’ll see. We’ve got some time. Gen. Dave Goldfein 2:41 We have grandchildren. Matter of fact, our book is dedicated to grandchildren and they don't know it yet, but at least on my side, they're Class of 2040 and 2043 at the Air Force Academy. Naviere Walkewicz 2:52 OK, so my youngest will be cadre for them. Excellent. Excellent. Dr. Heather Wilson 2:57 And my oldest granddaughter is 4, so I think we'll wait a little bit and see what she wants to do. Naviere Walkewicz 3:04 Yes, ma'am. All right. Well, let's jump in. You just mentioned that you wrote the book primarily for your film book. Is that correct? Gen. Dave Goldfein 3:09 Yes. Naviere Walkewicz 3:10 How did you decide to do this now together? Because you both have incredible stories. Dr. Heather Wilson 3:14 Well, two years ago, we were actually up in Montana with Barbara and Craig Barrett, who —  Barbara succeeded me as secretary of the Air Force. And our families, all six of us are quite close, and we were up there, and Dave was telling stories, and I said, “You know, you need to write some of these down.” And we talked about it a little bit, and he had tried to work with another co-author at one time and it just didn't work out really well. And I said, “Well, what if we do it together, and we focus it on young airmen, on lessons learned in leadership. And the other truth is, we were so tired of reading leadership books by Navy SEALs, you know, and so can we do something together? It turned out to be actually more work than I thought it would be for either of us, but it was also more fun.   Naviere Walkewicz 3:59 How long did it take you from start to finish? Dr. Heather Wilson 4:02 Two years. Naviere Walkewicz 4:03 Two years? Excellent. And are you — where it's landed? Are you just so proud? Is it what you envisioned when you started? Gen. Dave Goldfein 4:10 You know, I am, but I will also say that it's just come out, so the initial response has been fantastic, but I'm really eager to see what the longer term response looks like, right? Did it resonate with our intended tenant audience? Right? Did the young captains that we had a chance to spend time with at SOS at Maxwell last week, right? They lined up forever to get a copy. But the real question is, did the stories resonate? Right? Do they actually give them some tools that they can use in their tool bag? Same thing with the cadets that we were privileged to spend time with the day. You know, they energized us. I mean, because we're looking at the we're looking at the future of the leadership of this country. And if, if these lessons in servant leadership can fill their tool bag a little bit, then we'll have hit the mark. Naviere Walkewicz 5:07 Yes, sir, yes. Ma'am. Well, let's jump right in then. And you talked about servant leadership. How would you describe it? Each of you, in your own words, Dr. Heather Wilson 5:15 To me, one of the things, important things about servant leadership is it's from the bottom. As a leader, your job is to enable the people who are doing the work. So in some ways, you know, people think that the pyramid goes like this, that it's the pyramid with the point at the top, and in servant leadership, it really is the other way around. And as a leader, one of the most important questions I ask my direct reports — I have for years — is: What do you need from me that you're not getting? And I can't print money in the basement, but what do you need from me that you're not getting? How, as a leader, can I better enable you to accomplish your piece of the mission. And I think a good servant leader is constantly thinking about, how do I — what can I do to make it easier for the people who are doing the job to get the mission done? Gen. Dave Goldfein 6:08 And I'd offer that the journey to becoming an inspirational servant leader is the journey of a lifetime. I'm not sure that any of us actually ever arrive. I'm not the leader that I want to be, but I'm working on it. And I think if we ever get to a point where we feel like we got it all figured out right, that we know exactly what this whole leadership gig is, that may be a good time to think about retiring, because what that translates to is perhaps at that point, we're not listening, we're not learning, we're not growing, we're not curious — all the things that are so important. The first chapter in the book is titled, Am I worthy? And it's a mirror-check question that we both came to both individually and together as secretary and chief. It's a mere check that you look at and say, “All right, on this lifelong journey to become an inspirational servant leader, am I worthy of the trust and confidence of the parents who have shared their sons and daughters with the United States Air Force and expecting us to lead with character and courage and confidence? Am I worthy of the gift that followers give to leaders? Am I earning that gift and re-earning it every single day by how I act, how I treat others?” You know, that's the essence of servant leadership that we try to bring forward in the book. Naviere Walkewicz 7:38 Right? Can you recall when you first saw someone exhibiting servant leadership in your life? Dr. Heather Wilson 7:46 Good question. It's a question of role models. Maj. William S. Reeder was my first air officer commanding here. And while I think I can probably think of some leaders in my community, you know, people who were school principals or those kind of things, I think Maj. Reeder terrified me because they didn't want to disappoint him. And he had — he was an Army officer who had been shot down as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. He still had some lingering issues. Now, I think he had broken his leg or his back or something, and so you could tell that he still carried with him the impact of that, but he had very high expectations of us and we didn't want to disappoint him. And I think he was a pretty good role model. Gen. Dave Goldfein 8:47 You know, one of the things we say at the very end of the book is that we both married up. We both married incredible leaders, servant leaders in their own right. So in my case, I married my high school sweetheart, and we've now been together almost 43 years, coming up on 43. And when you talk about servant leadership, you know, very often we don't give military spouses enough credit for the enormous courage that they have when they deal with the separations, the long hours, very often not talked about enough, the loneliness that comes with being married to someone who's in the military. And so I just give a shout out to every military spouse that's out there and family to thank them for that very special kind of courage that equates to servant leadership on their part. Naviere Walkewicz 9:47 Excellent. Those are both really great examples, and I think, as our listeners are engaging with this, they're going to start to think about those people in their lives as well, through your descriptions. Early in the book, you make this statement: “Leadership is a gift and a burden.” Might you both expand on that?   Dr. Heather Wilson 10:03 So it's a gift in that it’s a gift that's given to you by those whom you are privileged to lead, and it's not just an institution that, you know, it's not just the regents of the University of Texas who have said, “Yes, you're going to be the president of the University of Texas at El Paso.” It is those who follow me who have given me gift of their loyalty and their service and their time. It's a burden, because some days are hard days, and you have to make hard calls based on values to advance the mission and, as chief and service secretary, there are no easy decisions that come walking into that part of the Pentagon. The easy decisions are all made before it gets to the service secretary and chief and so. So there is that responsibility of trying to do well difficult things. And I think sometimes those are lonely decisions. Gen. Dave Goldfein 11:09 And I think as a leader of any organization, part of what can be the burden is if you care deeply about the institution, then you carry the burden of any failures of that institution, both individuals who fall short, or the institution itself. And we face some of those, and we talk about that in the book. One of our chapters is on Sutherland Springs and owning failure. There was no dodge in that. And there was, quite frankly, there was an opportunity for us to actually showcase and teach others how to take ownership when the institution falls short and fails, right? And you know, one of the interesting elements of the relationship between a secretary and a chief is that if you go back and look at the law and read the job description of the chief of staff of the Air Force, it basically says, “Run the air staff and do what the secretary tells you.” I'm not making that up. Because most of the decision authority of the institution resides in the civilian control, the military civilian secretary. So almost all authority and decision authority resides with the secretary. What the chief position brings is 30 years in the institution that very often can bring credibility and influence. And what we determined early in our tenure was that if we were going to move the ball, if we were going to actually move the service in a positive direction, neither of us could do it alone. We had to do it together. We had to use this combination of authority and influence to be able to move the institution forward. And so that was a — and we talked a lot about that, you know, in the book, and it sort of runs throughout our stories. You know, that that trust matters. Naviere Walkewicz 12:59 Absolutely. We're going to visit that towards the end of our conversation, because there's a particular time before you both — before you became the chief and before you became the service secretary, when you met up together. And I want to visit that a little bit. But before we do, Gen. Goldfein — JD — you shared a story in the book, and obviously we want everyone to read it, so I'm not going to go tell the whole story, but you know where you took off one more time than you landed, and you had to, you know, you were hit, you had to evade and then you had to be rescued. There was a particular statement you made to identify yourself. And many of our Long Blue Line members will know this: fast, neat, average, friendly, good, good. In that moment of watching the sun start to rise while you're waiting to be retrieved, how did that come to your mind? Of all the things you could be thinking of to identify yourself? Gen. Dave Goldfein 13:53 Well, you know, it's interesting. So, you know, for those who've never, you know, had gone through a high-speed ejection, people asked me, what was like? I said, “Well, I used to be 6-foot-3. This is all that's left, right?” And you know, my job once I was on the ground was, quite frankly, not to goof it up. To let the rescue team do what the rescue team needed to do, and to play my part, which was to put them at the least amount of risk and be able to get out before the sun came up. And at the very end of the rescue when the helicopters — where I was actually vectoring them towards my location. And I had a compass in my hand, and I had my eyes closed, and I was just listening to the chopper noise and then vectoring them based on noise. And then eventually we got them to come and land, you know, right in front of me. Well, they always teach you, and they taught me here at the Academy during SERE training, which I think has been retitled, but it was SERE when we went through it, survival training. Now, I believe they teach you, “Hey, listen, you need to be nonthreatening, because the rescue team needs to know that you're not — this is not an ambush, that you are actually who you say you are. Don't hold up a weapon, be submissive and authenticate yourself. Well, to authenticate myself required me to actually try my flashlight. And I could see the enemy just over the horizon. And as soon as the helicopter landed, the enemy knew exactly where we were, and they came and running, and they came shooting, and they were raking the tree line with bullets. And so, you know, what I needed to do was to figure out a way to do an authentication. And I just, what came to mind was that training all those years ago, right here at the Academy, and I just said, “I could use a fast, neat, average rescue,” and friendly, good, good was on the way. Naviere Walkewicz 15:53 Wow, I just got chill bumps. Dr. Wilson, have you ever had to use that same kind of term, or, you know, reaching out to a grad in your time frequently? Dr. Heather Wilson 16:04 Yes, ma'am. And, you know, even in the last week, funny — I had an issue that I had to, I won't go into the details, but where there was an issue that might affect the reputation, not only of the university, but of one of our major industry partners, and it wasn't caused by either of us, but there was kind of a, kind of a middle person that was known to us that may not have been entirely acting with integrity. And I just looked up the company. The CEO is an Academy grad. So I picked up the phone and I called the office and we had a conversation. And I said, “Hey, I'd like to have a conversation with you, grad to grad.” And I said, “There are some issues here that I don't need to go into the details, but where I think you and I need to be a little careful about our reputations and what matters is my relationship as the university with you and your company and what your company needs in terms of talent. But wanted to let you know something that happened and what we're doing about it, but I wanted to make sure that you and I are clear.” And it was foundation of values that we act with integrity and we don't tolerate people who won't. Naviere Walkewicz 17:30 Yes, ma'am, I love that. The Long Blue Line runs deep that way, and that's a great example. JD, you spoke about, in the book, after the rescue — by the way, the picture in there of that entire crew was amazing. I love that picture. But you talked about getting back up in the air as soon as possible, without any pomp and circumstance. “Just get me back in the air and into the action.” I'd like to visit two things. One, you debriefed with the — on the check ride, the debrief on the check ride and why that was important. And then also you spoke about the dilemma of being dad and squad comm. Can you talk about that as well? Gen. Dave Goldfein 18:06 Yeah, the check ride. So when I was in Desert Storm, an incredible squadron commander named Billy Diehl, and one of the things that he told us after he led all the missions in the first 30 days or so, he said, “Look, there will be a lot of medals, you know, from this war.” He goes, “But I'm going to do something for you that happened for me in Vietnam. I'm going to fly on your wing, and I'm going to give you a check ride, and you're going to have a documented check ride of a combat mission that you led in your flying record. I'm doing that for you.” OK, so fast forward 10 years, now I'm the squadron commander, and I basically followed his lead. Said, “Hey, I want…” So that night, when I was shot down, I was actually flying on the wing of one of my captains, “Jammer” Kavlick, giving him a check ride. And so, of course, the rescue turns out — I'm sitting here, so it turned out great. And so I called Jammer into a room, and I said, “Hey, man, we never did the check ride.” I said, “You know, you flew a formation right over the top of a surface enemy missile that took out your wingman. That's not a great start.” And he just sort of… “Yes, sir, I know.” I said, “And then you led an all-night rescue that returned him to his family. That's pretty good recovery.” And so it's been a joke between us ever since. But in his personal — his flying record, he has a form that says, “I'm exceptionally, exceptionally qualified.” So I got back and I thought about this when I was on the ground collecting rocks for my daughters, you know, as souvenirs from Serbia. I got back, and I looked at my wing commander, and I said, “Hey, sir, I know you probably had a chance to think about this, but I'm not your young captain that just got shot down. I'm the squadron commander, and I’ve got to get my squadron back on the horse, and the only way to do that is for me to get back in the air. So if it's OK with you, I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna get crew rest and I’m going to fly tonight.” And he looked at me, and he looked at my wife, Dawn, who was there, and he goes, “If it's OK with her, it's OK with me.” Great. Dawn, just a champion, she said, “I understand it. That's what you got to do.” Because we were flying combat missions with our families at home, which is, was not in the squadron commander handbook, right? Pretty unique. What I found, though, was that my oldest daughter was struggling a little bit with it, and so now you've got this, you know, OK, I owe it to my squad to get right back up in the air and lead that night. And I owe it to my daughter to make sure that she's OK. And so I chose to take one night, make sure that she and my youngest daughter, Diana, were both, you know, in a good place, that they knew that everything's going to be OK. And then I got back up the next night. And in some ways, I didn't talk about it with anybody in the media for a year, because my dad was a Vietnam vet, I'd met so many of his friends, and I'd met so many folks who had actually gotten shot down one and two and three times over Vietnam, in Laos, right? You know what they did after they got rescued? They got back up. They just went back up in the air, right? No fanfare, no book tours, no, you know, nothing, right? It was just get back to work. So for me, it was a way of very quietly honoring the Vietnam generation, to basically do what they did and get back in the air quietly. And so that was what it was all about. Naviere Walkewicz 21:25 Dr. Wilson, how about for you? Because I know — I remember reading in the book you had a — there was something you said where, if your children called, no matter what they could always get through. So how have you balanced family? Dr. Heather Wilson 21:36 Work and life. And so, when I was elected to the Congress, my son was 4 years old. My daughter was 18 months. First of all, I married well, just like Dave. But I also think my obligations to my family don't end at the front porch, and I want to make a better world for them. But I also knew that I was a better member of Congress because I had a family, and that in some ways, each gave richness and dimension to the other. We figured out how to make it work as a family. I mean, both my children have been to a White House Christmas ball and the State of the Union, but we always had a rule that you can call no matter what. And I remember there were some times that it confounded people and, like, there was one time when President Bush — W. Bush, 43 — was coming to New Mexico for the first time, and he was going to do some events in Albuquerque. And they called and they said, “Well, if the congresswoman wants to fly in with him from Texas, you know, she can get off the airplane in her district with the president. And the answer was, “That's the first day of school, and I always take my kids to school the first day, so I'll just meet him here.” And the staff was stunned by that, like, she turns down a ride on Air Force One to arrive in her district with the president of the United States to take her kids to school. Yes, George Bush understood it completely. And likewise, when the vice president came, and it was, you know, that the one thing leading up to another tough election — I never had an easy election — and the one thing I said to my staff all the way through October, leading — “There's one night I need off, and that's Halloween, because we're going trick or treating.” And wouldn't you know the vice president is flying into New Mexico on Halloween for some event in New Mexico, and we told them, “I will meet them at the stairs when they arrive in Albuquerque. I'll have my family with them, but I won't be going to the event because we're going trick or treating.” And in my house, I have this great picture of the vice president of the United States and his wife and my kids in costume meeting. So most senior people understood that my family was important to me and everybody's family, you know — most people work to put food on the table, and if, as a leader, you recognize that and you give them grace when they need it, you will also have wonderful people who will work for you sometimes when the pay is better somewhere else because you respect that their families matter to them and making room for that love is important. Naviere Walkewicz 24:36 May I ask a follow on to that? Because I think that what you said was really important. You had a leader that understood. What about some of our listeners that maybe have leaders that don't value the same things or family in the way that is important. How do they navigate that? Dr. Heather Wilson 24:52 Sometimes you look towards the next assignment, or you find a place where your values are the same. And if we have leaders out there who are not being cognizant of the importance of family — I mean, we may recruit airmen but we retain families, and if we are not paying attention to that, then we will lose exceptional people. So that means that sometimes, you know, I give a lot of flexibility to people who are very high performers and work with me. And I also know that if I call them at 10 o'clock at night, they're going to answer the phone, and that's OK. I understand what it's like to — I remember, you know, I was in New Mexico, I was a member of Congress, somebody was calling about an issue in the budget, and my daughter, who was probably 4 at the time, had an ear infection, and it was just miserable. And so I'm trying to get soup into her, and this guy is calling me, and she's got — and it was one of the few times I said — and it was the chairman of a committee — I said, “Can I just call you back? I've got a kid with an ear infection…” And he had five kids. He said, “Oh, absolutely, you call me back.” So you just be honest with people about the importance of family. Why are we in the service? We're here to protect our families and everybody else's family. And that's OK.   Naviere Walkewicz 26:23 Yes, thank you for sharing that. Anything to add to that, JD? No? OK. Well, Dr. Wilson, I'd like to go into the book where you talk about your chapter on collecting tools, which is a wonderful chapter, and you talk about Malcolm Baldridge. I had to look him up — I'll be honest — to understand, as a businessman, his career and his legacy. But maybe share in particular why he has helped you. Or maybe you've leveraged his process in the way that you kind of think through and systematically approach things. Dr. Heather Wilson 26:49 Yeah, there was a movement in the, it would have been in the early ’90s, on the Malcolm Baldrige Quality Awards. It came out of the Department of Commerce, but then it spread to many of the states and it was one of the better models I thought for how to run organizations strategically. And I learned about it when I was a small businessperson in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I thought it was interesting. But the thing that I liked about it was it scaled. It was a little bit like broccoli, you know, it looks the same at the little flora as it does at the whole head, right? And so it kind of became a model for how I could use those tools about being data driven, strategically focused, process oriented that I could use in reforming a large and not very well functioning child welfare department when I became a cabinet secretary for children, youth and families, which was not on my how-to-run-my-career card. That was not in the plan, but again, it was a set of tools that I’d learned in one place that I brought with me and thought might work in another. Naviere Walkewicz 28:02 Excellent. And do you follow a similar approach, JD, in how you approach a big problem? Gen. Dave Goldfein 28:07 I think we're all lifelong students of different models and different frameworks that work. And there's not a one-size-fits-all for every organization. And the best leaders, I think, are able to tailor their approach based on what the mission — who the people are, what they're trying to accomplish. I had a chance to be a an aide de camp to a three-star, Mike Ryan, early in my career, and he went on to be chief of staff of the Air Force. And one of the frameworks that he taught me was he said, “If you really want to get anything done,” he said, “you’ve got to do three things.” He said, “First of all, you got to put a single person in charge.” He said, “Committees and groups solve very little. Someone's got to drive to work feeling like they've got the authority, the responsibility, the resources and everything they need to accomplish what it is that you want to accomplish. So get a single person in charge. Most important decision you will make as a leader, put the right person in charge. Second, that person owes you a plan in English. Not 15 PowerPoint slides, right, but something that clearly articulates in one to two pages, max, exactly what we're trying to accomplish. And the third is, you’ve got to have a way to follow up.” He said, “Because life gets in the way of any perfect plan. And what will happen is,” he goes, “I will tell you how many times,” he said, “that I would circle back with my team, you know, a couple months later and say, ‘How's it going?’ And they would all look at each other and say, “Well, I thought you were in charge,” right? And then after that, once they figure out who was in charge, they said, “Well, we were working this plan, but we got, you know, we had to go left versus right, because we had this crisis, this alligator started circling the canoe, and therefore we had to, you know, take care of that,” right? He says, “As a leader, those are the three elements of any success. Put someone in charge. Build a plan that's understandable and readable, and always follow up. And I've used that as a framework, you know, throughout different organizations, even all the way as chief to find — to make sure that we had the right things. Dr. Heather Wilson 30:21 Even this morning, somebody came by who reminded us of a story that probably should have been in the book, where we had — it was a cyber vulnerability that was related to a particular piece of software widely deployed, and the CIO was having trouble getting the MAJCOMMS to kind of take it seriously. And they were saying, “Well, you know, we think maybe in 30, 60, 90 days, six months, we'll have it all done,” or whatever. So I said, “OK, let all the four-stars know. I want to be updated every 36 hours on how many of them, they still have, still have not updated.” I mean, this is a major cyber vulnerability that we knew was — could be exploited and wasn't some little thing. It was amazing; it got done faster. Naviere Walkewicz 31:11 No 90 days later. Oh, my goodness. Well, that was excellent and actually, I saw that in action in the story, in the book, after the attack on the Pentagon, and when you stood up and took charge, kind of the relief efforts, because many people were coming in that wanted to help, and they just needed someone to lead how that could happen. So you were putting into practice. Yes, sir. I'd like to get into where you talk about living your purpose, and that's a chapter in there. But you know, Gen. Goldfein, we have to get into this. You left the Academy as a cadet, and I think that's something that not many people are familiar with. You ride across the country on a bike with a guitar on your back for part of the time — and you sent it to Dawn after a little while — Mini-Bear in your shirt, to find your purpose. Was there a moment during the six months that you that hit you like lightning and you knew that this was your purpose, or was it a gradual meeting of those different Americans you kind of came across? Gen. Dave Goldfein 32:04 Definitely gradual. You know, it was something that just built up over time. I used to joke — we both knew Chairman John McCain and always had great respect for him. And I remember one time in his office, I said, “Chairman, I got to share with you that I lived in constant fear during every hearing that you were going to hold up a piece of paper on camera and say, ‘General, I got your transcript from the Air Force Academy. You got to be kidding me, right?’ And he laughed, and he said, Trust me, if you looked at my transcript in Annapolis,” he goes, “I'm the last guy that would have ever asked that question.” But you know, the we made a mutual decision here, sometimes just things all come together. I'd written a paper on finding my purpose about the same time that there was a professor from Annapolis that was visiting and talking about a sabbatical program that Annapolis had started. And so they started talking about it, and then this paper made it and I got called in. They said, “Hey, we're thinking about starting this program, you know, called Stop Out, designed to stop people from getting out. We read your paper. What would you do if you could take a year off?” And I said, “Wow, you know, if I could do it, I'll tell you. I would start by going to Philmont Scout Ranch, you know, and be a backcountry Ranger,” because my passion was for the outdoors, and do that. “And then I would go join my musical hero, Harry Chapin.” Oh, by the way, he came to the United States Air Force Academy in the early ’60s. Right? Left here, built a band and wrote the hit song Taxi. “So I would go join him as a roadie and just sort of see whether music and the outdoors, which my passions are, what, you know, what it's all about for me.” Well, we lost contact with the Chapin connection. So I ended up on this bicycle riding around the country. And so many families took me in, and so many towns that I rode into, you know, I found that if I just went to the library and said, “Hey, tell me a little bit about the history of this town,” the librarian would call, like, the last, you know, three or four of the seniors the town, they'd all rush over to tell me the story of, you know, this particular little town, right? And then someone would also say, “Hey, where are you staying tonight?” “I'm staying in my tent.” They said, “Oh, come stay with me.” So gradually, over time, I got to know America, and came to the conclusion when I had to make the decision to come back or not, that this country is really worth defending, that these people are hard-working, you know, that want to make the world better for their kids and their grandkids, and they deserve a United States Air Force, the best air force on the planet, to defend them. So, you know, when I came back my last two years, and I always love sharing this with cadets, because some of them are fighting it, some of them have embraced it. And all I tell them is, “Hey, I've done both. And all I can tell you is, the sooner you embrace it and find your purpose, this place is a lot more fun.” Naviere Walkewicz 35:13 Truth in that, yes, yes, well. And, Dr. Wilson, how did you know you were living your purpose? Dr. Heather Wilson 35:19 Well, I've had a lot of different chapters to my life. Yes, and we can intellectualize it on why we, you know, why I made a certain decision at a certain time, but there were doors that opened that I never even knew were there. But at each time and at each junction, there was a moment where somehow I just knew. And at South Dakota Mines is a good example. You know, I lost a race to the United States Senate. I actually had some interns — I benefited from a lousy job market, and I had fantastic interns, and we were helping them through the loss. You know, they're young. They were passionate. They, as Churchill said, “The blessing and the curse of representative government is one in the same. The people get what they choose.” And so I was helping them through that, and one of them said, “Well, Dr. Wilson, you're really great with students. You should be a college president somewhere. Texas Tech needs a president. You should apply there,” because that's where this kid was going to school. And I said, “Well, but I don't think they're looking for me.” But it did cause me to start thinking about it and I had come close. I had been asked about a college presidency once before, and I started looking at it and talking to headhunters and so forth. And initially, South Dakota Mines didn't seem like a great fit, because I'm a Bachelor of Science degree here, but my Ph.D. is in a nonscientific discipline, and it's all engineers and scientists. But as I went through the process, it just felt more and more right. And on the day of the final interviews, that evening, it was snowing in South Dakota, there was a concert in the old gym. I mean, this is an engineering school, and they had a faculty member there who had been there for 40 years, who taught choral music, and the students stood up, and they started singing their warm up, which starts out with just one voice, and eventually gets to a 16-part harmony and it's in Latin, and it's music is a gift from God, and they go through it once, and then this 40th anniversary concert, about 50 people from the audience stand up and start singing. It's like a flash mob, almost These were all alumni who came back. Forty years of alumni to be there for that concert for him. And they all went up on stage and sang together in this just stunning, beautiful concert by a bunch of engineers. And I thought, “There's something special going on here that's worth being part of,” and there are times when you just know. And the same with becoming cabinet secretary for children, youth and families — that was not in the plan and there's just a moment where I knew that was what I should do now. How I should use my gifts now? And you hope that you're right in making those decisions.   Naviere Walkewicz 38:43 Well, probably aligning with JD’s point in the book of following your gut. Some of that's probably attached to you finding your purpose. Excellent. I'd like to visit the time Dr. Wilson, when you were helping President Bush with the State of the Union address, and in particular, you had grueling days, a lot of hours prepping, and when it was time for it to be delivered, you weren't there. You went home to your apartment in the dark. You were listening on the radio, and there was a moment when the Congress applauded and you felt proud, but something that you said really stuck with me. And he said, I really enjoy being the low-key staff member who gets stuff done. Can you talk more about that? Because I think sometimes we don't, you know, the unsung heroes are sometimes the ones that are really getting so many things done, but nobody knows. Dr. Heather Wilson 39:31 So, I’m something of an introvert and I've acquired extrovert characteristics in order to survive professionally. But when it comes to where I get my batteries recharged, I'm quite an introvert, and I really loved — and the same in international negotiations, being often the liaison, the back channel, and I did that in the conventional forces in Europe negotiations for the American ambassador. And in some ways, I think it might have been — in the case of the conventional forces in Europe negotiations, I was on the American delegation here. I was in Vienna. I ended up there because, for a bunch of weird reasons, then they asked me if I would go there for three months TDY. It's like, “Oh, three months TDY in Vienna, Austria. Sign me up.” But I became a very junior member on the delegation, but I was the office of the secretary of defense's representative, and walked into this palace where they were negotiating between what was then the 16 NATO nations and the seven Warsaw Pact countries. And the American ambassador turned to me, and he said during this several times, “I want you to sit behind me and to my right, and several times I'm going to turn and talk to you, and I just want you to lean in and answer.” I mean, he wasn't asking anything substantive, and I just, “Yes, sir.” But what he was doing was credentialing me in front of the other countries around that table. Now, I was very young, there were only two women in the room. The other one was from Iceland, and what he was doing was putting me in a position to be able to negotiate the back channel with several of our allies and with — this was six months or so now, maybe a year before the fall of the Berlin Wall. So things were changing in Eastern Europe, and so I really have always enjoyed just that quietly getting things done, building consensus, finding the common ground, figuring out a problem. Actually have several coffee mugs that just say GSD, and the other side does say, Get Stuff Done. And I like that, and I like people who do that. And I think those quiet — we probably don't say thank you enough to the quiet, hardworking people that just figure out how to get stuff done. Naviere Walkewicz 41:59 Well, I like how he credentialed you and actually brought that kind of credibility in that way as a leader. JD, how have you done that as a leader? Champion, some of those quiet, behind the scenes, unsung heroes. Gen. Dave Goldfein 42:11 I'm not sure where the quote comes from, but it's something to the effect of, “It's amazing what you can get done if you don't care who gets the credit.” There's so much truth to that. You know, in the in the sharing of success, right? As servant leaders, one of the things that I think both of us spend a lot of time on is to make sure that credit is shared with all the folks who, behind the scenes, you know, are doing the hard, hard work to make things happen, and very often, you know, we're the recipients of the thank yous, right? And the gratefulness of an organization or for somebody who's benefited from our work, but when you're at the very senior leaders, you know what you do is you lay out the vision, you create the environment to achieve that vision. But the hard, hard work is done by so many others around you. Today, in the audience when we were there at Polaris Hall, was Col. Dave Herndon. So Col. Dave Herndon, when he was Maj. Dave Herndon, was my aide de camp, and I can tell you that there are so many successes that his fingers are on that he got zero credit for, because he was quietly behind the scenes, making things happen, and that's just the nature of servant leadership, is making sure that when things go well, you share it, and when things go badly, you own it. Naviere Walkewicz 43:47 And you do share a really remarkable story in there about accountability. And so we won't spend so much time talking about that, but I do want to go to the point where you talk about listening, and you say, listening is not passive; it's active and transformative. As servant leaders, have you ever uncovered challenges that your team has experienced that you didn't have the ability to fix and you know, what action did you take in those instances? Dr. Heather Wilson 44:09 You mean this morning? All the time. And sometimes — and then people will give you grace, if you're honest about that. You don't make wild promises about what you can do, but then you sit and listen and work through and see all right, what is within the realm of the possible here. What can we get done? Or who can we bring to the table to help with a set of problems? But, there's no… You don't get a — when I was president of South Dakota Mines, one of the people who worked with me, actually gave me, from the toy store, a magic wand. But it doesn't work. But I keep it in my office, in case, you know… So there's no magic wands, but being out there listening to understand, not just listening to refute, right? And then seeing whether there are things that can be done, even if there's some things you just don't have the answers for, right? Gen. Dave Goldfein 45:11 The other thing I would offer is that as senior leadership and as a senior leadership team, you rarely actually completely solve anything. What you do is improve things and move the ball. You take the hand you're dealt, right, and you find creative solutions. You create the environment, lay out the vision and then make sure you follow up, move the ball, and if you get at the end of your tenure, it's time for you to move on, and you've got the ball moved 20, 30, yards down the field. That's actually not bad, because most of the things we were taking on together, right, were big, hard challenges that we needed to move the ball on, right? I If you said, “Hey, did you completely revitalize the squadrons across the United States Air Force?” I will tell you, absolutely not. Did we get the ball about 20, 30 yards down the field? And I hope so. I think we did. Did we take the overhaul that we did of officer development to be able to ensure that we were producing the senior leaders that the nation needs, not just the United States Air Force needs? I will tell you that we didn't solve it completely, but we moved the ball down the field, and we did it in a way that was able to stick. You know, very often you plant seeds as a leader, and you never know whether those seeds are going to, you know, these seeds are ideas, right? And you never know whether the seeds are going to hit fertile soil or rocks. And I would often tell, you know, young leaders too. I said, you know, in your last few months that you're privileged to be in the position of leadership, you’ve got two bottles on your hip. You're walking around with — one of them's got fertilizer and one of them's got Roundup. And your job in that final few months is to take a look at the seeds that you planted and truly determine whether they hit fertile soil and they've grown roots, and if they've grown roots, you pull out the fertilizer, and the fertilizer you're putting on it is to make it part of the institution not associated with you, right? You want somebody some years from now say, “Hey, how do we ever do that whole squadron thing?” The right answer is, “I have no idea, but look at how much better we are.” That's the right answer, right? That's the fertilizer you put on it. But it's just equally important to take a look at the ideas that, just for whatever reason, sometimes beyond your control — they just didn't stick right. Get out the Roundup. Because what you don't want to do is to pass on to your successor something that didn't work for you, because it probably ain't going to work for her. Dr. Heather Wilson 47:46 That's right, which is one of the rules of leadership is take the garbage out with you when you go. Naviere Walkewicz 47:51 I like that. I like that a lot. Well, we are — just a little bit of time left. I want to end this kind of together on a story that you shared in the book about laughter being one of the tools you share. And after we share this together, I would like to ask you, I know we talked about mirror checks, but what are some things that you guys are doing every day to be better as well, to continue learning. But to get to the laughter piece, you mentioned that laughter is an underappreciated tool and for leaders, something that you both share. I want to talk about the time when you got together for dinner before you began working as chief and service secretary, and I think you may have sung an AF pro song. We're not going to ask you to sing that today, unless you'd like to JD? But let's talk about laughter.   Gen. Dave Goldfein 48:31 The dean would throw me out. Naviere Walkewicz 48:33 OK, OK, we won't have you sing that today. But how have you found laughter — when you talk about — when the questions and the problems come up to you?   Dr. Heather Wilson 48:40 So I'm going to start this because I think Dave Goldfein has mastered this leadership skill of how to use humor, and self-deprecating humor, better than almost any leader I've ever met. And it's disarming, which is a great technique, because he's actually wicked smart. But it's also people walk in the room knowing if you're going to a town hall meeting or you're going to be around the table, at least sometime in that meeting, we're going to laugh. And it creates a warmth and people drop their guard a little bit. You get to the business a little bit earlier. You get beyond the standard PowerPoint slides, and people just get down to work. And it just — people relax. And I think Dave is very, very good at it. Now, my husband would tell you that I was raised in the home for the humor impaired, and I have been in therapy with him for almost 35 years.   Naviere Walkewicz 49:37 So have you improved? Dr. Heather Wilson 49:39 He thinks I've made some progress.   Naviere Walkewicz 49:41 You’ve moved the ball.   Dr. Heather Wilson 49:44 Yes. Made some progress. I still don't — I used to start out with saying the punch line and then explain why it was funny. Naviere Walkewicz 49:52 I’m in your camp a little bit. I try. My husband says, “Leave the humor to me.” Dr. Heather Wilson 49:54 Yeah, exactly. You understand. Gen. Dave Goldfein 49:58 I used to joke that I am a member of the Class of 1981[’82 and ’83]. I am the John Belushi of the United States Air Force Academy, a patron saint of late bloomers. But you know, honestly, Heather doesn't give herself enough credit for building an environment where, you know, folks can actually do their very best work. That's one of the things that we do, right? Because we have — the tools that we have available to be able to get things done very often, are the people that are we're privileged to lead and making sure that they are part of an organization where they feel valued, where we're squinting with our ears. We're actually listening to them. Where they're making a contribution, right? Where they believe that what they're being able to do as part of the institution or the organization is so much more than they could ever do on their own. That's what leadership is all about. Dr. Heather Wilson 51:05 You know, we try to — I think both of us see the humor in everyday life, and when people know that I have a desk plate that I got in South Dakota, and it doesn't say “President.” It doesn't say “Dr. Wilson.” It says, “You're kidding me, right?” Because once a week, more frequently as secretary and chief, but certainly frequently as a college president, somebody is going to walk in and say, “Chief, there's something you need to know.” And if they know they're going to get blasted out of the water or yelled at, people are going to be less likely to come in and tell you, right, what you need to know. But if you're at least willing to laugh at the absurdity of the — somebody thought that was a good idea, you know. My gosh, let's call the lawyers or whatever. But you know, you’ve just got to laugh, and if you laugh, people will know that you just put things in perspective and then deal with the problem. Naviere Walkewicz  52:06 Well, it connects us as humans. Yeah. Well, during my conversation today with Dr. Heather Wilson and Gen. Dave Goldfein — JD — two lessons really stood out to me. Leadership is not about avoiding the fall, but about how high you bounce back and how your recovery can inspire those you lead. It's also about service, showing up, doing the hard work and putting others before yourself with humility, integrity and working together. Dr. Wilson, Gen. Goldfein, thank you for showing us how courage, compassion and connection — they're not soft skills. They're actually the edge of hard leadership. And when you do that and you lead with service, you get back up after every fall. You encourage others to follow and do the same. Thank you for joining us for this powerful conversation. You can find Get Back Up: Lessons in Servant Leadership, wherever books are sold. And learn more at getbackupeadership.com [https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fleadership.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cbryan.grossman%40usafa.org%7C50b776c0c9df456a847508de52037677%7Ce6421ec329ed4f09a13a96e310c5ba80%7C0%7C0%7C639038372444905691%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wI1DMNsL7n1wKteKMZNxiV1j%2Bj9lgd7pJZbsaWjtePw%3D&reserved=0]. If today's episode inspired you, please share it with someone who can really benefit in their own leadership journey. As always, keep learning. Keep getting back up. Keep trying. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. This has been Focus On Leadership. Until next time. Producer This edition of Focus on Leadership, the accelerated leadership series, was recorded on Monday, Oct. 6, 2025.   KEYWORDS Leadership, servant leadership, resilience, humility, integrity, influence, teamwork, family, trust, listening, learning, purpose, growth, accountability, service, courage, compassion, balance, values, inspiration.     The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation

Lead with Grit - Congressman August Pfluger ’00

Leadership demands grit, clarity and conviction. SUMMARY On Long Blue Leadership, Congressman August Pfluger ’00 reflects on these qualities through his experiences at the U.S. Air Force Academy, in the cockpit and as part of the U.S. House of Representatives. His story challenges every leader to ask where courage is calling them to go next. SHARE THIS PODCAST LINKEDIN  [https://www.linkedin.com/shareArticle?mini=true&url=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/lead-with-grit-congressman-august-pfluger-00/?token=b754c4c19bba341cde4caa774f3ab46b] |  FACEBOOK  [https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A//www.longblueleadership.org/e/lead-with-grit-congressman-august-pfluger-00/?token=b754c4c19bba341cde4caa774f3ab46b]   CONGRESSMAN PFLUGER'S TOP 10 LEADERSHIP TAKEAWAYS 1. Courageous career leaps require conviction, timing and faith. Pfluger left active duty at 19 years and four months — a highly unconventional choice — demonstrating that major pivots sometimes require stepping into uncertainty. 2. Work ethic is a lifelong differentiator. He emphasizes that he has never been “the best,” but has always been willing to outwork anyone. Hard work + grit consistently opened doors. 3. Failure and setbacks shape long-term success. Missed opportunities at USAFA and earlier career disappointments taught him timing, resilience and long-term perspective. 4. Leadership is transferable across domains. His fighter pilot and command experience directly enabled his political success — planning, debrief culture and thick skin all mapped over perfectly. 5. Credibility requires deep study and prioritization. You cannot master everything; leaders must choose focus areas and know them cold so others trust their expertise. 6. Humility, credibility and approachability are foundational leadership traits. These principles translate powerfully to Congress and team leadership. 7. Family and faith must anchor leadership. His family’s summer crisis reframed his priorities: “None of this matters if you don’t take care of your family.” 8. The nation needs more military and Academy graduates in public leadership. He stresses that only four USAFA grads have ever served in Congress — and more are needed to restore civility and mission-focused service. 9. The U.S. Air Force and U.S. Space Force are under-resourced relative to global threats. Pfluger advocates vigorously for rebalancing defense spending to meet modern challenges. 10. Self-reflection is critical to growth. Leaders must ask: How do I see myself? How do others see me? If those don’t align, adjust the work ethic, mindset or behaviors accordingly.   CHAPTERS 00:00 — Introduction & Biography 01:44 — Opening Remarks 01:47 — Leaving Active Duty at 19 Years and 4 Months 04:06 — Why Run for Office? 05:40 — Family, Faith & Influences 07:14 — Representing His Hometown District 08:29 — Learning to Represent a District 11:07 — Work Ethic and USAFA Foundations 12:22 — Failure, Setbacks & Long-Term Rewards 15:10 — Unexpected Assignments Becoming Career High Points 17:24 — Pentagon, Fellowship & NSC 19:49 — USAFA Grads in Congress 21:03 — Role of the Board of Visitors 23:24 — Key Focus Areas for the Board of Visitors 25:11 — Top National Security Challenges 27:13 — Balancing Congress, Leadership, and Family 29:01 — Leadership Style & Decision-Making 30:40 — Humble, Credible, Approachable 33:38 — Building Credibility as a Younger Leader 34:43 — What’s Next: A More United Country 37:29 — Daily Habits for Growth 39:37 — Advice for Emerging Leaders 41:24 — Final Reflections & Call to Action 43:45 — Closing Thoughts & Outro   ABOUT CONGRESSMAN PFLUGER BIO U.S. Rep. August Pfluger ’00 is serving his third term in the U.S. House of Representatives. He represents 20 counties in Texas’ 11th Congressional District. After graduating from the U.S Air Force Academy, he served in the Air Force and Air Force Reserve for 25 years as an F-22 and F-15 pilot with over 300 combat hours. In Congress, he is chairman of the Republican Study Committee, the largest caucus on Capitol Hill. He is a member of the House Energy and Commerce Committee and chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence. CONNECT WITH THE CONGRESSMAN LINKEDIN [https://www.linkedin.com/in/august-pfluger-23240577/] HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES [https://pfluger.house.gov/contact/]   CONNECT WITH THE LONG BLUE LINE PODCAST NETWORK TEAM Ted Robertson | Producer and Editor:  Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org [Ted.Robertson@USAFA.org] Send your feedback or nominate a guest: socialmedia@usafa.org [socialmedia@usafa.org]   <---> Ryan Hall | Director:  Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org [Ryan.Hall@USAFA.org]  Bryan Grossman | Copy Editor:  Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org [Bryan.Grossman@USAFA.org] Wyatt Hornsby | Executive Producer:  Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org [Wyatt.Hornsby@USAFA.org]      ALL PAST LBL EPISODES [https://www.longblueleadership.org/]  |  ALL LBLPN PRODUCTIONS [https://www.podbean.com/podcast-network/longbluelinepodcast] AVAILABLE ON ALL MAJOR PODCAST PLATFORMS     FULL TRANSCRIPT OUR SPEAKERS Guest, Rep. August Pfluger ’00  |  Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99   Naviere Walkewicz 0:00 Welcome to Long Blue Leadership, the podcast where we share insights on leadership through the lives and experiences of Air Force Academy graduates. I'm Naviere Walkewicz, Class of ’99. In this edition of Long Blue Leadership, we're honored to welcome a distinguished leader whose career spans military service, national security and public office, Congressman August Pfluger is a proud graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, Class of 2000, and currently represents the 11th Congressional District of Texas in the U.S. House of Representatives. Before entering Congress, Congressman Pfluger served for nearly two decades in the United States Air Force, rising to the rank of colonel. He is currently a member of the Air Force Reserve as an F-15 and F-22 fighter pilot. He logged over 300 combat hours in defense of our nation. He has also served as a member of the National Security Council, bringing strategic insight to some of the most complex global threats we face today. Since taking office in 2021 Congressman Pfluger has remained deeply committed to strengthening our national defense. He currently serves on the House Energy and Commerce Committee and the House Homeland Security Committee to critical platforms from which he continues to represent and lead. He is the chairman of the Republican Study Committee and serves as the chairman of the Air Force Academy's Board of Visitors, appointed to the BOV by the speaker of the house in 2023 and elected by his colleagues to serve as chair. Whether in the halls of Congress or in the cockpit, Congressman Pfluger's career has been defined by a steadfast commitment to courageous service and leadership. Congressman Pfluger, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. Rep. August Pfluger 1:44 Thank you, Naviere. It's honor to be here with you.   Naviere Walkewicz 1:47 Well, we are so glad to have you. And there's something that I want to jump right into, because it really occurred to me how odd this is, but you served for nearly two decades, and when I say nearly two decades in the Air Force, 19 years and four months, and then you pulled the plug, you didn't go to retirement right then. Can we talk about that a little bit? Rep. August Pfluger 2:09 Well, this is not something that most financial advisers would advise you of doing. And I'll tell you, this was a journey in faith, because at almost 20 years. September of 2019, we made a decision, my wife and I made a decision to run for Congress, which meant that we got out of the active duty, joined the Reserve, and started a campaign, something that just a month prior, we had absolutely no intention of doing, and had not even talked about doing. Running for office was something that was always of interest, but certainly not at 19 years and four months. So the opportunity came up, had a couple of phone calls from friends and family to say that the representative who represented my hometown and where I grew up was retiring after 16 years, and a lot of factors. And I'll really take you down this faith journey, a lot of factors happened that we couldn't ignore. And we literally moved back to my hometown of San Angelo that I had not lived in for over 20 years, and started a campaign, which, as you can imagine, was, I mean, it took a lot of courage for my wife, from my family, three little girls, who we uprooted and went through this. But I'm so glad that we did it. But it wasn't without, you know, I can say anxiety and just, you know, the fear, the unknown maybe, and not knowing exactly what would happen. So when you say and use the words, we burned the ships. That was the moment in time that we literally burned the ships and ran a campaign with every piece of our heart and soul. Naviere Walkewicz 3:48 Wow. Well, let's talk about that a little bit, because, you know, we have listeners that make these pivotal moments in their careers. They make these decisions that really shaped them. What was it about that time, other than the incumbent was going to retire. Like, why you? Why then, you know? Let's talk about that a little bit more. Rep. August Pfluger 4:06 Well, this is pre-Covid. And the thought of running for office always sounds good. You know, if you have that interest, you're like, “OK, that'd be great.” Well, then when you kind of get down to the brass tax that you're going to have to put in 14- to 16-hour days and learn how to talk to people about what's important in this district that then it kind of changes things. But honestly, there were signs and things that pointed me and my wife in this direction that we couldn't ignore. And when you look at this type of district, I mean, it's really, in the past 100 years, there's only been about six representatives. So it's not one of those things you say, “Well, maybe we'll wait for next time.” The opportunity was there, there was a window of time. It was about 30 days where we had to make a decision to literally move from northern Virginia back to Texas and start a whole new career. And ended doing so forego the pension for what would now be five or six years, because I've had to work as a reservist to, you know, kind of get back to that point. So there was a financial piece to it. There was a career that was, was going very well that, you know, maybe, are we giving that up? And what happens if we don't win? And then, you know, all these unknowns. So I will say it was, it was definitely the biggest professional decision that I've ever made in my career. Naviere Walkewicz 5:40 So you talked about some of your family members — you had phone calls. It sounds like, your faith and your family are a big part of your decision making. And, when you go forward with things, I think you've talked about your grandfather having been someone that inspired you to go into the Air Force. You know, who are those key players in your family that have really inspired you in your big leadership decisions. Rep. August Pfluger 6:02 Yes, you're right. I had two grandfathers that served in World War II. One was a pilot, and that that led me to make the first decision to go to the Air Force Academy. And that stayed with me. We had nobody in my family who was in politics. I mean, not a single person. In fact, a lot of my family, I had several great uncles and different family members that I'm close to, and they said, “What?” Like, ”What are — you sure you want to do this? And why? Don't you have a really good Air Force career and you've been able to, you know, rise in the ranks and all the things that you've tried to do?” But I honestly — it was kind of a word of wisdom to say, “If you're going to do this, have some good reasons.” Like, “Why do you want to do this?” And the district that I get to represent in my hometown, we have military bases, agriculture and energy, and I love all three of those things. And I think of those as national security-level entities that really dovetail very nicely with my first part of my professional career. Naviere Walkewicz 7:14 That makes sense. So it really was an extension — this new path in your journey was really an extension of what you had done in uniform and active duty and now being able to give it back to your hometown district and the patrons in there as well. Rep. August Pfluger 7:30 Absolutely. And in the campaign I talked about how important it was to be able to provide our own food. We have a lot of cattle ranchers there that are in my district, that you don't want to be dependent on some other country, especially an adversarial country, for your food needs. And the same thing for energy production: that you can't be dependent for energy needs on your adversaries. So those were things that I was able to really talk about, and I mean, oh my gosh, after I actually was elected and got into office, I mean, they became front and center and still are of that discussion. And I think that was the really interesting piece about having been deployed. We were stationed all over the world, almost seven years outside of the United States, on three different continents, and to be able to tie it together and kind of bring that back home and communicate why this place where I grew up and now where I live and where I represent is so important to our national security? Naviere Walkewicz 8:29 Well, you talked a little bit about earlier, about you weren't sure if you were going to get elected, and then when you did, you had to go out and talk to people and really understand the challenges. What is that journey like when it's completely new, right? It's not the same. It's you're not getting into a cockpit. You're not an instructor pilot now. Now you are — you're representing all of them. How do you how do you approach that new path? Because I think that's something when our leaders take this leap of faith and they're looking at, well, how do I approach it? It's completely different from anything I've done. I think they'd like to know how you did it so well. Rep. August Pfluger 8:59 Well, thanks for the question. It was a huge challenge in being a squadron commander, having been an instructor pilot or a mission commander, and having led in actual combat, that that was everything. I mean, I didn't know anything about politics, but what I did know was how to map out a plan and how to put the pieces and parts together. And I knew that nobody was going to outwork me. I mean, come on, you know, when you have a SAMI on Saturday morning, you got to wake up and make your bed and do all the things to get that weekend pass. I mean, you're going to work hard. And so I knew that I had a competitive advantage on the work ethic and the ability to plan and so really, the thing that I realize now, now six years later, is that I think people — what they really appreciated was that I wasn't a career politician, that the things that I was saying and campaigning on were like true passions, and they weren't empty promises. I told them this is what I'm going to do, and I'm proud to report I've done every single one of those things that I told them that I would do, and it's because we were instructed so well, both at school and then as members of the active-duty Air Force about how to follow through and be persistent and just carry through with what you said you're going to do. I mean, integrity is a big piece of this, but I will tell you also that now staying in touch after being elected, elected, I travel throughout these 20 counties all the time, and you have to have some thick skin, because you're going to get some feedback from people that is not always flattering, and they're going to ask you, “Well, why did you vote this way, or what happened here, and why are you not doing this? And this is expensive.” And, I mean, so you have to be willing to take that feedback, which, by the way, sitting in a fighter pilot debrief — I mean, that was the perfect training for having thick skin, to understand that what people are trying to tell you: Is it critical? Without substance? That you really need to listen to them and try to solve these problems? Naviere Walkewicz 11:07 So earlier, you had talked about, I think there are these things that you did at the Academy. No one is going to outwork you have. You always been that type of person, someone that, you know, just kind of works really hard. Or is that something that you kind of developed at the Academy. Rep. August Pfluger 11:21 I developed it at the Academy. But I would say I came in with a with a good work ethic and then was challenged by our classmates, who are amazing, you know? It's like, “Oh my gosh, I'm really not that smart and not that fast and not that… you know, whatever,” because you see all these amazing people. But yes, work ethic was, I mean, I look at it now, having administered how many nominations to service academies? I mean, dozens and dozens of kids that I've gotten a chance to work with over the past five years who are absolutely incredible. I'm like, I don't know if I could get in at this point in time, because they're just incredible. And I had to work very hard at everything I ever did, everything I ever achieved, was because of hard work. It wasn't because I was the best. It was because I just, at the end of the day, worked very hard to get it. I think that's something that's a lesson that we learned during four years at the Academy, but it served me very well in this profession. Naviere Walkewicz 12:22 Was there a particular time at the Academy where you worked really hard and it didn't go your way? And, you know, how did you overcome that? Because I think sometimes the outcome is, “If I if I give it all and I work really hard, I'm going to get to where I want to go.” And if that wasn't the case, how did that actually change the trajectory or shape you? Rep. August Pfluger 12:42 There were multiple times at the Academy that you work hard for something. I mean, I came in as a recruited athlete, had some injuries, and so didn't get a chance to finish all four years that that was hard to go through that process, and it just didn't work out. And or you're just not good enough. And then that was the case too for me, on the football team. But they're just better people, which is awesome and that, but that shaped who I am now, because it is not just about how hard you work. That's a huge piece of it. But you also have to have good timing. You have to have some luck. You have to be in the right place and have been brought up by the right people. And when the when the opportunity strikes you, you've got to be able to take advantage of that timing to do that. And that those lessons — I absolutely remember that there was one instance where I really, really wanted to go to do this exchange program in Egypt, and they were going to bring some of the political science department over there. Well, apparently my grades were not in the right area to be selected for this program. I think I was an alternate or something, unless that's good, that's — it's not nothing. But I was very disappointed, because I thought I worked hard, you know, maybe not hard enough on the grades, but had worked hard to be a part of the conversation, to go. Well, didn't get a chance to do it. So always had that in the back of my mind. Well, I went to Egypt, but it was as a congressman. I led a congressional delegation of six or seven members. We met with the president of Egypt and had very serious conversations about the negotiation for what Gaza has now with the peace deal that we have gotten to and had a, you know, went to the president's palace, got to sit down right next to him and talk to him for over an hour. So I always kept that in the back of my mind that I was going to Egypt one day. Naviere Walkewicz 14:37 That's right. And honestly, you worked really, really hard. You didn't get there, but it kept you — kept that fire going, because you knew at some point you're going to, so it did end up working out, in that case, for sure. You know, one of the things that I find really interesting and fascinating about you is, as you talk about these different experiences you've had, you said they've shaped you. And when you're in the military, can you share a time when you maybe we're in a position that it wasn't what you'd hoped for. You thought it was going to be, but you found it to be incredibly rewarding. Was there anything in that kind of space that happened to you? Rep. August Pfluger 15:10 Yes, several times. You know you want things, you think you want things, and then it doesn't work out. You don't get selected. And always in the back of my mind, every young lieutenant wants to be a weapons officer wants to then be a squadron commander of a fighter squadron, and that's just the competitive side of this. And I was no different when it came time to select who the next squadron commanders were going to be. I'll never forget: My operations group commander came to be and he said, “Well, we got a problem. We have six really talented lieutenant colonels. You're all promoted below the zone, and we have four squadrons, so we're going to have to figure out a Plan B for a couple of you, and I've got something in mind for you.” He said, “I think that you should go be a deployed squadron, commander of an OSS, an operational support squadron.” He said, “We've got a war going on, a conflict with ISIS, and you'd be great.” Well, that's not exactly an easy conversation to go home and to tell your spouse: “Oh, I just got told that I was going to deploy. I'm not going to be a fighter squadron commander here. I'm going to go somewhere else, and I'll be gone a year.” So that was hard, but oh my goodness, what an experience professionally. Obviously, I missed my family, but this was the height of the conflict against ISIS. I had hundreds of people that I got a chance to work with, command, flying combat missions, doing something that mattered, working with our international partners. You know, we were on an Emirati base, and so I worked with the Emiratis on a daily basis, because we had almost 20 different weapon systems, 20 different aircraft there and it was the highlight of my professional career. So God had a plan. It worked out much better than I could have ever engineered, and it turned out — minus the fact that I had to be gone for a year; obviously, nobody likes that — but it turned out to be the best professional year of my Air Force career. Naviere Walkewicz 17:13 I find that really interesting because that — so would that have been the last kind of position you held before going into the move for Congress? Is that correct? Rep. August Pfluger 17:24 You know, actually, I came back — was PCSed to the Pentagon, worked for the chief of staff of the Air Force, General Goldfein, OK, went to a year of War College equivalent in D.C., a fellowship program, and then was assigned to the White House, to the National Security Council, for just about two and a half months before we made — three months before we made the decision to run for Congress. Naviere Walkewicz 17:49 So just a couple things happened after that. [Laughs]. What an amazing run, and the amazing leaders that you got to work with. So was that experience that when you were deployed as a squadron commander and then coming back, did that help shape your thoughts specifically to the Congress role, because you talked about the very three important things, right? Energy, you know, national security and there was one more… and agriculture. Thank you. And so, you know, did that all kind of get settled in when you were in that transition piece from, you know, squadron commander, to your time at the Pentagon in the White House area. Rep. August Pfluger 18:26 Absolutely, I had a year as a deployed squadron commander, came back and worked a year at the Pentagon, which I didn't know how lucky that was. Most people get there two or three years, but work directly for the chief of staff. Heard all of the conversations between Gen. Goldfein and Secretary Heather Wilson and then had a year where I studied at a think tank on Middle East policy. It could not have been a better education with a little bit of time in the White House to prepare me to run for Congress. You look back on that, you go, “Oh, so that's why.” “Oh, these steps were to prepare for this job now,” which I mean, just the fact that, as a member of Congress, I've probably met with 10 or 15 heads of states, one on one, presidents from different countries around the world, and to have that education, to be able to speak intelligently, at least somewhat intelligently, on these issues. Took that the steps that I just went through right there. Naviere Walkewicz 19:31 And you know, something that I think is really interesting to what you just said, working with Gen. Goldfein and with Secretary Wilson, you know, there are so few Academy graduates that have had the opportunities to serve in Congress and to be in the role that you are. How many Academy, Air Force Academy grads we have now have that have done this? Rep. August Pfluger 19:49 There's two currently serving, myself and Don Davis, opposite sides of the aisle, but great friends, and there were only two prior, so there's only been four. And the first two were Heather Wilson was the first Martha McSally, I'll never forget when I got elected. Heather Wilson called me and she said, “Congratulations, you're finally keeping up with us ladies.” And I thought it was great. But you know, we need more graduates, honestly. And I don't care who's listening to this, what side of the aisle you're on, we need more air force academy graduates. There are nine West Pointers currently serving, and seven from Annapolis currently serving, and we've only had four total. Naviere Walkewicz 20:30 All right, it's out there now. We've got our, you know, got our calling. So here we go. You know, I want to ask you a question about, you know, being in Congress, you are on several committees, and you're in leading roles in them. Let's talk a little bit. First about, if you don't mind, I'd like to talk about the Board of Visitors, because I think it's a great opportunity for our graduates to understand actually what the Board of Visitors actually does. So if you don't mind, kind of sharing in your words, you know what your priorities are with the Board of Visitors and what that looks like. I think it'd be really helpful in educating our listeners. Rep. August Pfluger 21:03 Well. Thank you. It's an honor to be on the Board of Visitors. It's statutorily set up by Congress decades ago, and it basically provides an avenue of oversight, something that is appointed both legislatively, by the speaker of the house and by the Senate majority leader and also the president. And, you know, we've got a number of several grads, but a number of senators and congressmen. And, you know, again, one of these timing things that I didn't necessarily intend to run for the chairmanship, but we needed, I think, a graduate to do that, and am proud to be the chairman of this group. You know, Charlie Kirk was on this board, and what a tragic situation that was. We've got a number of really passionate leaders, and our job really is to interact with the institution, to ask questions and to report back directly to the Secretary of War and into the Secretary of the Air Force on the health and welfare of the institution, on any other issues that we think are important. And for me, kind of the driving principle is that I love this institution, the leadership lessons that I learned there and those that I hear from so many graduates are important well beyond military service. They're important for the rest of a graduate’s life. And I want to make sure that everything that is going on there, the resources that are needed there, the schedule and the curriculum and the ability to train the next generation of young warriors, both for the space and the Air Force, are the best in the country, and that we are prepared no matter what, that those graduates can go do their job. So it really is an honor to be on the board, but then to be the chairman of it. Naviere Walkewicz 23:03 I can imagine that, and I think it really speaks volumes, the fact that, you know, you're so passionate about it, you've taken what you've had from the Academy, you've applied it in this role. What are the first things that I think you're looking at? You said you talked about the resources and kind of the schedule and things that are happening at the academy. What are the key things that you're looking at right now as a Board of Visitors? Rep. August Pfluger 23:24 Well, I think to start with, I mean, we all know you wake up early, you go bed late, and you're trying to cram, you know, 28 hours into 24 and so the No. 1 thing that I want to see and work through is, how are we continuing to innovate with the best training possible, so that, you know, you can't teach the solution to every problem, but you want to teach a framework of how to think, and that, you know, there's going to be cadets that are challenged through their academic studies, there's going to be cadets that are challenged through their military studies. There's going to be cadets that are challenged athletically, and some that get all three of those, obviously, we all get got all three. But no matter which piece of the puzzle fills, you know, their time, they should get the training that teaches them how to respond in stressful situations, that teaches them how to function as a team, and that that offers them the opportunity to honestly, to experience a little bit of failure, while also knowing that success is right down the road, and that with a little grit, a little determination and a little persistence, that they're going to get there, and that is a challenge, I mean, In a resource-confined environment that we have right now that that's a big challenge, but that's why we have legislators, Senators and House members, They can go fight for those resources to make sure that they're getting that training that they need. Naviere Walkewicz 24:56 Thank you for sharing that you know, I think when you talk about having that framework to critically work through whatever is coming at you, and, you know, fighting for resources. Can you share what is the greatest challenge that you're faced with right now and how you're working through it? Rep. August Pfluger 25:11 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just, you know, from a military standpoint, I'm obviously very biased on what air power and space power does I mean the army will deploy to certain locations. In the Navy will deploy to certain locations. But the Air Force and the Space Force are everywhere. We're in every theater. We've been in every conflict. We are the constant and I don't think resource wise, that that our Department of the Air Force is receiving the resources that it needs proportionately speaking to the threat that we face. We're the smallest and the oldest that we've ever been, and we need to change that immediately. As chairman — you mentioned I was chairman of the Republican Study Committee. What is that? Well, it's a 189-member caucus, committee, policy committee...   Naviere Walkewicz 26:01 It's the largest one, right?   Rep. August Pfluger 26:02 It's huge. It's the largest committee in Congress, and we meet weekly with Cabinet members and other leaders to discuss policy. But this has been something that I've been passionate about, which we have to take advantage of an environment where some more resources are being put towards our military, and I want to make sure that a larger portion of those go to the Department of the Air Force to meet the threat. And that's just a neat opportunity that it's a competitive election. I had to get elected by my peers. You know, 188 other congressmen and women from across the country. I had to run an election to get elected to it, and now trying to communicate to them why the business of Air and Space power is so important, but, but I'm we're slowly but surely getting there. Naviere Walkewicz 26:53 Well, I'm not sure where you have time when you're you know, you're doing so many things, you're on the road, meeting with your constituents. You're leading. You know these major committees, the Board of Visitors, as chair. Can you talk about how you're balancing? You know, you always talked about being your family is really important to you. How are you balancing that? What does that look like for someone in a leadership role? Rep. August Pfluger 27:13 Well, it's obviously the biggest challenge that any of us face, which is making sure that you take care of the most fundamental and important piece of your life, which is your family and being gone. I mean, I go to Washington, D.C., on Monday, and generally come home Thursday or Friday, and that's about three weeks out of every four. So my wife, is the most important piece of this, because she allows me to do this, and I couldn't do it without her, honestly. And then secondly, you know, we had a scare this summer because two of my girls were at Camp Mystic. And you know, that was that really brought things back to such a fundamental level that, you know, my No. 1 job on this earth is to be a husband and a father, a person of faith. And I'll tell you that that was, that was a transformational moment in it, just in my in my life, because when you have two daughters that were that thankfully came home and in then you see 27 others that didn't, that they knew that we knew the families and we were close to that. This has put everything back into perspective, that the service that I'm doing should be focused on a foundation of family and faith, and that none of it matters if you don't take care of that. Naviere Walkewicz 28:41 So what does that look like in how you lead? How does that shape the decisions you make in your role in Congress, as a reservist? And then for our listeners, you know, how do they put those important things first in the midst of having to make other decisions professionally? Rep. August Pfluger 29:01 I think a lot of it is, maybe not so much, the “what” in the decision, but it's the “how,” you know, you carry yourself, and you know on the other side of the aisle. I mean, I'm going to fight policies that I don't agree with all day long. But I think the how I do that, what I want my daughters to know is that they had a dad that was very firm in his beliefs. So I think that's, you know, when I look at it kind of like from the, “OK, what's important?” OK, being a good dad, not just saying the right things, but actually going and carrying those out. I think the how you carry them out is really important. And then, you know the specifics of legislation. There are things that, if I believe in in taking care of the American family, then there are things that I'm going to advocate for, not, not to make this to political of a discussion, but I think you can see through my track record that that I have focused on those things that would help strengthen the family, Naviere Walkewicz 30:08 The “how” is really, it's part of your legacy, right? And I think that's what your children are seeing as well, in the way that you, you, you do what you do. And I think as leaders, that's something really important to be thinking about. So I'm really thankful that you shared that example. Shared that example. Have you found that your leadership style has evolved, or has it already always been kind of rooted in you know, who you've been and you've just kind of tweaked it a little bit? Or have you seen yourself evolve more than you would have expected? Rep. August Pfluger 30:40 Yes, it has evolved, but, and I hope for the better, we'd have to ask others what they think of that, but, but, you know, look, growing up in a professionally in a fighter squadron, there were three tenants that they even though I didn't go to weapon school, they teach you this to be humble, credible and approachable. I mean, think about that. Those are the core tenants of who our lead warriors are, and that is not what you see. When you think of politicians. You think, Well, they're braggadocious and annoying. And you know, OK, and I hope I don't fall into that category. I need to do some self-reflection every once while, but, but I've got a staff of almost 40 people, and I have 434 other colleagues that you have to work with. So you better believe that you've got to be humble because there are people who are better than you in every category. You better believe that being approachable in this job is really important, because people are going to come to you and they're going to need something, or you're going to need something from them, and if you don't have the credibility of what you're talking about or what you're leading, then you're not going to get anything done. And so I've really had to work on all three of those things since I was elected to make sure that tying that to a servant leadership model. We started out in 2021, and I told my team, I said, we are going to do everything we possibly can to make other people that I am working with, other congressmen and women better. And they said, Wait, what? I said, Yeah, this isn't about me getting the limelight. We will get plenty of limelight, but let's work on giving other people the credit, giving other people the opportunities, calling on their expertise, pushing them up. And it will all work out, and we will achieve everything we wanted to achieve for the district that I represent, and it was just like this lightning bolt of it was so antithetical to the way that many people in Congress think. And I am not saying that we have changed the world, but when you're elected to basically a conference-wide position like I am, then you really have hard conversations with people, and those conversations people said, You know what, you've helped me out. I'm going to vote for you. And that meant everything, Naviere Walkewicz 33:08 Humble, approachable, credible, what great lessons for our leaders. And I think that translates across anything you're doing. Of the three, it seems that credible would probably be the hardest to achieve, right? It's a time-based thing. How would you recommend that our leaders, especially those that are growing in their leadership roles, achieve that when they don't necessarily have the time right in? Rep. August Pfluger 33:38 It's so hard, but that grit, that determination, I mean, the study, the thing, all the things we learned, you know, it's like they give you. The academic instructors are like a torture chamber, because they know you can't study everything, so you have to prioritize, which is a lesson I think I still draw on today. But I think that credibility comes from if you're going to be an expert in something, you've got to study it. You've got to know it, and people have to trust you. So when you tell them something, it has to be the truth, and they have to know well, I don't know that particular policy issue, but I know Pfluger does, because, you know he did that in his career. He studied that. So I think that grit and that determination and the prioritization of your time is so important, you can't do it all. I mean, we just can't. You have to. You have to make a choice, and those choices have to then go towards the goals that you're setting for yourself. Naviere Walkewicz 34:32 Excellent, excellent lessons. So you've accomplished so much since 2021, you know? What's next? What are you trying to work towards next? Rep. August Pfluger 34:43 I mean, there's so many different like policy issues I'm not going to bore you with. Let's just talk about the big picture, the elephant in the room, which is how divided our country is, and it's heartbreaking to see. You know, I think back to like, the aftermath of 911 I literally 911 happened two weeks prior to my pilot training graduation. You as a Class of ’99 were right in the same boat. I mean, we were our professional careers were turned upside down, but our country came together, and that that was kind of the I think that that was the best thing to see how many people that were divided on whatever lines kind of came together. We're very divided, and it is hard to see and from I want to see an end of the radical sides of our parties and a normal conversation. We should be able to have a normal debate in Congress about whatever issues of spending and things like that. And we should be able to then slap each other on the back and say, Yeah, good job you won that one. Or, you know, good job I won this one. That should be kind of the norm. And I've got so many good friends who are Democrats that it's there, but the pull to radicalization is it's alive and well. And to be honest, this is why we need more Academy graduates who are doing this type of work, whether it's running for local office or running for Congress or Senate or whatever, because we get it. We get it from being a part of something that was greater than ourselves and being a part of a mission that it wasn't about, I it was literally about the team of success. And I think it's, it's veterans that are in these leadership positions that are going to help be a part of this, so that that really, I really do want to see that that doesn't mean that I'm not going to fight tooth and nail for policy that I believe in, which is partisan at times. And I'm OK with that, but what I'm not OK with is demonizing somebody for having a different belief. Let's go fight the merits of it, but not, not the character of the other person. Naviere Walkewicz 37:03 Thank you for sharing that. I think, you know, just putting the elephant on the table, I think, is really important. That's what it is about conversation. It's about dialog and so thank you for sharing that. For sure, this has been an incredible conversation. We've kind of navigated different parts of your career, you know, your leadership journey, maybe, if I could ask you this, what is something you're doing every day, Congressman Pfluger, to be better? Rep. August Pfluger 37:29 I think, in faith life, really trying to tie in spiritually, and to not be the one in control, trying to be more present in in my family's life, I'm going to give you three or four. So, you know, just being more intentional, putting the phone down, like if I'm going to sit down with my kids and be there, because I could be on the phone 24 hours a day. So put the phone down, talk to my wife be engaged, and that that's really that, that, I think that's a challenge for anybody who is in any adult right now, quite frankly, but especially those that are in leadership positions, which all of our graduates are, and so just put the phone down and being engaged, and it's hard. It's like, “Oh, I got to take care of this, you know, I got to call that person back. We've got to do this.” But you know that is, I think that that is probably the No. 1 thing that then allows a stronger faith life, a stronger relationship with my family. Physically, still taking the Air Force PT test, got a 99 last year. Was very proud of that and so trying to stay physically fit.   Naviere Walkewicz 38:48 That’s outstanding!   Rep. August Pfluger 38:49 There are some other graduates who have challenged me with that. You may know Joel Neeb? A classmate of yours.   Naviere Walkewicz 38:58 Oh yeah! I know Thor.   Rep. August Pfluger 39:00 Thor is awesome. And he's been such an inspiration. I could name 100 people, but he said he's a really good inspiration to so many people. And on all the things that you just the things that I answered for your question, he's been a good inspiration on. Naviere Walkewicz 39:15 I would agree with that wholeheartedly. Yes. Well, thank you for that. Can you also share, you know, knowing what you know now through the years that you've experienced, you know your hardships, the triumphs — what would you share with our growing leaders that they can do today to help them be stronger down the road? Rep. August Pfluger 39:37 You know, I think some self-reflection, like, how do you see yourself, and how does the world see you? And is this — does it match up? Because if it's different, if your opinion of yourself is higher than that of what other people are thinking and your work ethic and what you're bringing to the to the table, then then you need to do some self-reflection. And I again, I got back to my career as a fighter pilot, which was perfect for politics. You know, you got to learn to work as a team. You have people debriefing you, and there's critical thoughts on your actions, of how you perform. But I think any leader, it needs to first have the grit to be able to stick with it. It's not always the best person that gets the job, but I can promise you, the person who keeps seeking that job and has that drive, they're going to get there. That has been the story of my life and self-reflection, to go What's stopping me from getting there is probably the key, as long as you have that grit, that self-reflection, to have some clarity for whatever goal you want to achieve. That's my humble opinion of what I would tell myself 15 years ago. Naviere Walkewicz 41:00 Wow. And I think that does kind of give us a moment to just sit in it and think about that as we are, you know, trying to be our best selves and to continue to evolve as leaders. What a great way to do that, right? Just reflect some self-reflection. I want to make sure we have an opportunity. If there's anything that I didn't ask you, that you feel is really important to share with our listeners. What would that be? Rep. August Pfluger 41:24 Well, there were a couple of things. No. 1, I was trying to think back — because your Class of ’99 and I'm Class of 2000 — on whether or not I had to get in the front-leaning rest and recite John Stuart Mill's poem, or not. I can't remember that, so maybe I snuck by.   Naviere Walkewicz 41:45 Definitely a front-leaning rest kind of gal. I have pretty strong abs. I can handle that.   Rep. August Pfluger 41:51 You know, I just, I want to go back to what how important our institution is, because we're in that other dimension. We're in the air, in the space domain. We're solving problems in our professional career that I mean, think about where we've come since the Wright Brothers demonstrated we could fly and now, you know all the things that we're doing in air and space, and that's because of our graduates. And you know, I just, I really want to have a call out to our graduates that your leadership in a variety of ways is needed. It's needed in the business community, in Fortune 500 companies. It's needed in your local communities. It's needed at the national level of politics; there are several candidates for Congress right now who are graduates. I'm helping them, and I will help anybody. I don't care what party you are, of course, I have my favorite, but I will help any person who is looking to run for something like this. This is what I know now. But we really do need your leadership in order to bring the temperature down, to unite our country, to make sure that we're going to be successful. It's not if it's a matter of when we're going to face that next big, truly existential threat and challenge to our country. And guess what? I trust the people that were right there next to be in the front, winning rest, reciting all of those quotes and having to do a little bit harder of a standard in our four years of education than other institutions. And so I trust our graduates, but we need you, and we really need you to take that opportunity and serve in any possible way that you can. Naviere Walkewicz 43:45 Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I think that that is a perfect way a call to action, so to speak, for all of us you know the service after the service, so this has been incredible. Congressman Pfluger, thank you for your time today. Rep. August Pfluger 43:57 Well, Naviere, thank you for reaching so many graduates and looking forward to a Bitton Army and Navy again next year. Naviere Walkewicz 44:04 That's right next year. Well, you know, as I reflect on this conversation, you know, one theme really rises above others, courage, the grit, you know, not just the courage we often associate with the battlefield or moments of crises, but the quiet, steady courage that it takes to lead with conviction every day, Congressman Pfluger reminded us that true leadership means standing firm in your values even when the path may be uncertain or the stakes may be high, it's the kind of courage that doesn't seek comfort, but instead answers to responsibility. So as you think about your own leadership journey, ask yourself, Where is courage calling you? Where is that grit gonna take you? Whether it's in the workplace, in your community or your personal life, lean into those moments, because courage, real, principled, humble, courage is what transforms good leaders into great ones. Thank you for listening to this edition of Long Blue Leadership. If you know someone who needs encouraging words in their leadership journey, please share this podcast with them as well. I'm Naviere Walkewicz. Until next time.   KEYWORDS August Pfluger, Long Blue Leadership Podcast, U.S. Air Force Academy, leadership lessons, congressional service, fighter pilot, national security, grit and resilience, service after service, Air Force Board of Visitors, faith and family leadership, career transition, public service, humble credible approachable, air and space power.       The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association & Foundation