Beyond Employee Engagement: How Mattering Transforms Leadership and Executive Search

Why the Obvious CEO Hire Is So Often the Wrong One

What if the same leader, running the same playbook, could fail in one place and win big in another? That's the question at the heart of my conversation with Jim Citrin, who has spent three decades at the top of the executive search world placing and advising CEOs. Jim is also one of my mentors, so we go past the usual hiring talk into what actually decides whether a leader succeeds: fit. We trace the Bill Perez story across Nike and Wrigley, why the surprising hire is so often the right one, and how aspiring leaders break the permission paradox. * Why there's no single mold for a great leader * The Bill Perez A/B test: same playbook, opposite outcomes * How the New York Times hired against the spec and 20x'd its value * The permission paradox and how to actually break it * Why roughly 80% of CEO appointments are internal promotions * How leaders get isolated from the truth, and how the best stay grounded * How to tell a good failure from a disqualifying one Connect with Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonbaumgarten/ Email the show here: fithappens.fm 00:00 Intro 00:17 Meet Jim Citrin 01:04 Jim's circuitous path to search 03:13 A leadership belief Jim flipped on 04:42 Founders vs. the curated path to CEO 07:48 Bill Perez: the A/B test of fit 11:41 Why the surprising hire often fits 12:40 How the NYT hired against the spec 16:04 Why the CEO job got harder 19:05 The permission paradox 22:55 The career paradox that started us 25:47 Emperor's New Clothes: losing the truth 31:02 Six success factors, 25 years later 33:17 The resume trick that exposes bias 35:49 Good failure vs. bad failure 41:20 A question Jim asks himself daily 43:18 Speed round: books, advice, flow

Beyond Employee Engagement: How Mattering Transforms Leadership and Executive Search

What if the thing quietly undermining your team's performance isn't strategy, compensation, or culture decks, but whether people feel like they matter? Jennifer Wallace is a journalist and award-winning author of Never Enough and her newest book, Mattering. She spent years studying what allows people — children, employees, leaders — to thrive under pressure, and her answer centers on a deceptively simple idea: that humans have a fundamental need not just to feel valued, but to add value. In this conversation, Jennifer and I explore how that need shapes everything from parenting to executive leadership to the way companies hire and retain their best people. Jennifer walks us through the SAID Framework, her research-backed model built around four ingredients that make people feel like they genuinely matter: feeling Significant, Appreciated, Invested in, and Depended on. We talk about why company recognition programs so often miss the mark, what the Platinum Rule means for leaders trying to build real attunement, and why the difference between belonging and mattering is more consequential than most people realize. We also get into the harder questions: What happens when leaders are so busy filling everyone else's bucket that their own runs dry? What does AI stand to do to our fundamental sense of usefulness, and what might it give back? And when does a culture of mattering become so comfortable that it stops stretching people? Key Takeaways: * Mattering means feeling valued and having the opportunity to add value, you need both * The SAID Framework (Significant, Appreciated, Invested in, Depended on) gives leaders a practical model for embedding mattering into everyday interactions * Children raised with unconditional worth — high standards without contingent approval — are more likely to become healthy high achievers, not less * The "beautiful mess effect" shows that vulnerability during hard transitions actually makes us more trustworthy, not less * Leaders cannot fill others' buckets if their own sense of mattering is depleted. Self-mattering is a leadership responsibility * Recognition programs fail when they aren't tuned to the individual. The Platinum Rule (do unto others as they would want) is more powerful than the Golden Rule * Fit gets you a seat at the table; mattering makes you feel like you're needed there * Companies like Drury Hotels and David Weekley Homes demonstrate that investing in both fit and mattering produces extraordinary retention and engagement * AI poses a real risk to our sense of usefulness on a global scale and leaders need to be talking about the "mattering impact" of automation, not just the economic one * The antidote to a depleted sense of mattering often comes from small, intentional acts: issuing invitations, accepting vulnerability, and practicing the discipline of attunement Connect with Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonbaumgarten/ Email the show here: fithappens.fm 00:00 Introduction & Jennifer's background 01:11 High standards without contingency 02:32 From 60 Minutes to nonfiction writing 05:05 The Never Enough survey: 6,500 parents 06:13 Conditional worth and childhood pressure 09:08 Safe failure in leadership selection 10:19 What the research changed in Jason's parenting 11:51 Conditional worth at work 13:04 What mattering actually means 15:25 Reclaiming agency during transitions 16:18 When leaders struggle to matter to themselves 19:13 Belonging vs. mattering 19:52 The SAID Framework explained 22:19 Why authentic recognition beats automated programs 23:24 Attunement and the Platinum Rule 25:23 Leaders who are afraid to ask questions 26:00 When well-intentioned messaging backfires 27:04 Good intent without attunement 28:20 Drury Hotels: mattering and fit together 29:43 Mattering by Design: operationalizing the framework 31:30 What breaks when fit is missing 32:55 David Weekley Homes and the hiring dinner 34:36 AI and the risk to human usefulness 36:20 AI as bandwidth for human connection 37:25 Speed round begins 37:46 Book recommendation: P.M. Forni 38:25 Worst leadership advice 38:34 Advice to a younger self 38:59 Flow and writing at 4 AM 40:05 The invisible sign 40:39 Closing thoughts

The Boardroom Is Broken: How AI Changes Executive Leadership Forever

The boardroom is the last line of defense for AI governance — and most directors aren't ready. Steven Wolfe Pereira has spent 30 years at the intersection of technology, data, and leadership — from building the early internet at Akamai to now running Alpha, the AI governance intelligence firm reshaping how boards and C-suite executives prepare for the agentic era. In this conversation, Jason and Steven explore what real fit looks like across a career, why command-and-control management is obsolete, and how the boardroom must evolve from a quarterly check-in to a continuous governance engine. Key Takeaways: * Real fit requires both sides to genuinely want the same thing — not just saying the words. * The "messy middle" of AI adoption — where humans manage agents and agents manage humans — is where organizations are least prepared. * Boards that treat technology oversight as a single person's job are practicing irresponsible governance. * The most durable leadership skill in an AI world is human judgment — and you can't outsource the work that sharpens it. * Governance is not a risk function — it's a growth accelerant when done with a four-quadrant lens. * AI agents are becoming the predominant customer in the economy, requiring a fundamentally different approach to marketing and sales. * Command-and-control management structures will be the first casualties of the agentic enterprise. * Fit is not static — it evolves with context, and leaders must continually reassess where they belong. * Your superpower is rarely what you think it is; often it takes another leader to help you see it. * The judgment layer — the human capacity to evaluate, prioritize, and decide — is the only role AI cannot fully absorb. Connect with Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonbaumgarten/ Email the show here: fithappens.fm 00:00 Introduction & Steven's background 01:27 Building Alpha: AI governance for the boardroom 03:33 What real community looks like in a space full of charlatans 05:12 When you're actually in the thick of building with AI 05:47 Career arc: from finance to tech to founder 06:33 Three moments of genuine flow in Steven's career 08:30 Akamai, Danny Lewin & building the early internet 09:10 First C-suite role at Datalogix — acquired by Oracle 09:50 Building Alpha: the third time in flow 10:14 The role that looked right but wasn't — Quantcast 12:00 What is your real superpower? 12:42 Learning from Paul Sagan and Lisa Hook 14:35 Standing on the shoulders of giants 15:30 The immigrant mindset: hustle, grit, and kindness 17:05 Dig your well before you're thirsty 17:55 What kids need to learn in the AI era 19:57 Saltwater, surfing, and learning by doing 20:28 What does a great board director look like? 22:00 The Enron moment AI governance still needs 23:00 The agentic enterprise and continuous governance 24:29 AI and the biggest labor shift since agriculture 25:32 The photocopying problem — AI and deep thinking 27:23 The judgment layer: where humans still belong 29:00 Cognitive labor, Emad Mostaque, and digital labor 30:30 Context engineering and the 2026 buzzword: workflow 31:39 Judgment plus prioritization — the new leadership equation 32:57 The three-layer future organization 34:19 Clarity is more important with more resources, not less 35:30 What leadership capability goes obsolete first? 37:00 The K labor force: builders vs. consumers 38:24 Repotting your superpower for an AI-first world 39:02 The Klarna lesson: intent engineering matters 40:23 Interim roles vs. forever roles in the AI transition 41:00 ChatGPT's one-line summary of Steven's leadership philosophy 41:18 Governance as an accelerant — the two-by-two framework 42:29 AI raises the standard for leadership, not just the toolkit 43:03 Systems-based thinking and Tom Leighton's legacy 44:38 Organizational design is going to change radically 44:53 AI agents as the new customer in the economy 47:16 Inputs vs. outputs — and Ethan Mollick's jagged frontier 48:00 Narrative AI threats and Blackbird AI 48:58 Deepfakes, disinformation, and the coming midterms 49:39 Security, authentication, and the end of passwords 50:31 Speed round begins 50:48 Best leadership advice: focus, focus, focus 50:59 Most important decision: marrying Nuria 51:24 Boardroom skill most directors overestimate 52:03 The book that changed everything: Human and Machine 52:35 Fill in the blank: real career fit happens when... 53:10 Fit is not static — renewing your vows 54:28 Closing reflections

Your Schedule Is Your Job — How AI Affects Job Fit

What if the job you have today quietly becomes the job you never agreed to take? In this solo episode, Jason Baumgarten breaks down one of the most underestimated risks facing leaders right now: not job replacement, but job transformation. Drawing on history, academic research, and real examples from his work in executive search, Jason explains how AI and automation are quietly unbundling roles from the inside out — and why your calendar tells more truth than your job description. He introduces a practical three-column exercise to help leaders map what's coming, and challenges every professional to ask not just "is this the right role?" but "is this role becoming what I want?" Key Takeaways: * The real AI risk for most leaders isn't replacement — it's being left with the parts of your job you don't enjoy * Job titles stay fixed while the substance of work underneath them changes dramatically * The Luddites weren't anti-technology — they were reacting to the loss of craft, dignity, and meaning in their work * AI doesn't just automate tasks; it codifies tacit knowledge from your best people and distributes it to everyone * The most valuable future leaders will be defined by discernment — knowing when something is wrong, naive, or just buzzwords * Careers drift out of fit gradually and then suddenly, much like Hemingway's description of bankruptcy * Boards and hiring teams often define the next leader by the last job — a costly misread of what the role is becoming * Generic competency models ("strategic, collaborative, transformational") fail because they don't tell you what a leader will actually be doing * McKinsey research confirms this wave of AI disruption hits knowledge work — not just factories and call centers * The three-column exercise: map what gets automated, what becomes more valuable, and what's left over — then ask if you want that job Connect with Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonbaumgarten/  Email the show here: fithappens.fm 00:00 Introduction & the AI fear no one talks about  01:45 What "the composition of work" really means  04:10 The job title stays — the job underneath changes  06:30 The real story of the Luddites  09:00 Unbundling roles: what gets automated, what disappears  11:20 Why careers drift out of fit without warning  13:00 Work happens in verbs, not nouns  15:10 MIT research: task exposure and automation  17:30 If your distinctive strength gets automated  19:00 Generative AI: utopian vs. apocalyptic narratives  21:15 AI studies on customer support productivity  23:40 Tacit knowledge, bottled and distributed  26:00 What "best" means for leaders going forward  28:20 Hemingway, bankruptcy, and career drift  30:00 The executive whose strength became a trap  34:00 Succession: hiring for the last job vs. the next one  37:10 Why generic competency models fail  39:30 McKinsey on AI and knowledge work  41:45 Discernment: the skill that will matter most  44:00 The electricity factory analogy  46:30 How to redesign your work, not just your tools  48:00 The residue question: what's left, do you want it?  50:20 Executive search and evaluating AI fluency  53:00 Efficiency is not effectiveness  55:30 Your calendar is closer to the truth  57:00 The three-column exercise explained  61:00 Column one, two, and three — what each means  63:30 Closing: find the gradual before the sudden

The Spikiness Principle: What Executive Search Gets Wrong About Talent and Fit

The investors closest to the best founders have a front-row seat to what great fit really looks like. In this episode of Fit Happens, I sit down with Laela Sturdy, Managing Partner at CapitalG — Alphabet's growth investment fund — and one of the most thoughtful voices on leadership fit I've encountered. Laela has spent 20 years inside Google and Alphabet and 13 years partnering with hyper-growth companies like CrowdStrike, Duolingo, UiPath, and Lovable. She brings a rare investor's lens to the question at the heart of this show: does the right person in the right context actually change outcomes? Her answer is an emphatic yes — and she has the portfolio to prove it. Key Takeaways: * The biggest context failure Laela sees isn't skill — it's growth rate. Leaders built for stability often struggle when dropped into hyper-growth, and vice versa. * The single trait that predicts founder success more than any credential: pace of learning. The best founders she's backed look radically different as CEOs just one year in. * "Spikiness" over well-roundedness. When building a venture capital team — or any high-stakes team — one world-class skill beats a collection of average ones every time. * Founders rarely get honest feedback. The systems around them are set up to idealize, not challenge. Laela shares how she earns the trust to hold up the mirror. * The board is not the operator. Laela describes how the healthiest founder-board relationships work — and where executive coaching for leaders fits into that dynamic. * Talent you should have attracted before you could. Laela looks for founders who've pulled exceptional people before it made rational sense — a signal of leadership magnetism. * Flow is findable at work. A Harvard basketball player who chased the zone on the court, Laela explains why the intensity of startups replicates that feeling for her professionally. * Self-reflection is an underused leadership tool. Tracking hiring decisions — including the nos — is one of the most honest feedback loops a leader can build. * AI-native companies operate differently. Fewer meetings, faster decisions, radical transparency, and a cultural tolerance for public mistakes — Laela describes what she sees on the inside. * Data intuition over data dependency. Laela pushes back on the "everything must be data-driven" orthodoxy, arguing that the inventors of the future run on pattern recognition and gut as much as dashboards. Connect with Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonbaumgarten/  Email the show here: fithappens.fm 00:00 Introduction & Laela Sturdy's background 01:37 How long Laela has been at CapitalG 01:58 Does context really determine leadership success? 02:33 The growth rate as the biggest context failure 04:12 What makes founders good at hyper growth 05:00 Pace of learning: the single most predictive trait 06:44 Fit and the feeling of flow 07:19 Basketball, Harvard, and finding flow at work 09:23 Laela's own bad-fit career experience 09:53 Consulting, 80/20, and the mismatched pace 11:30 How the bad fit led to the perfect fit 12:09 Getting people in the right roles, not just right jobs 12:55 The spikiness principle in team building 15:15 Defining the critical spike before you recruit 16:53 When boards can't agree on what they need 17:09 Success distorts self-awareness 18:29 How Laela holds the mirror up for founders 22:03 Creating safe space: boards, feedback, and trust 22:50 How founder-board relationships really work 25:39 When companies don't reach their potential 26:04 Talent density as an investment signal 27:47 The "one job before they became great" framework 29:33 Betting on unproven talent: what the data shows 33:08 Three rules for better hiring decisions 36:29 Recruiting ruthlessness: outbound talent acquisition 37:27 The question leaders rarely ask themselves 37:43 Self-reflection and tracking your hiring record 39:00 AI as a leadership context shift 39:33 Inside AI-native companies: speed and uncertainty 41:49 What Fortune 100 leaders can learn from AI startups 42:12 Fewer meetings, faster decisions, radical transparency 43:32 Is 80/20 even the right framework anymore? 44:01 AI usage inside high-growth companies 44:45 Being AI-native as a cultural identity 45:59 How AI has changed Laela's own investing process 47:25 Speed round begins 47:33 Favorite book: The Enneagram Guide to Waking Up 48:20 Overrated leadership advice: everything must be data-driven 48:57 Advice to a younger Laela 49:13 Still in flow doing: basketball 49:25 Favorite tech product in 2026: Lovable 49:52 What Laela has built on Lovable 50:24 Closing thoughts and wrap