Sunny Side Up Nutrition

Episode 110: What if My Child Eats "Too Much" or "Too Little"?

In this episode: Anna and Elizabeth unpack one of the most common parent worries, how much kids eat. We explore how diet culture fuels fear, why restriction and pressure backfire, and how to use structure (not restriction or control) to support kids’ self-regulation. We discuss: * Why social media “perfect plates” and lunchboxes fuel worry and fear * The research on restriction * Providing structure without micromanaging your child’s eating * Tweens/teens still need support (even if they look independent) * When appetites fluctuate * Special considerations for ADHD meds and ARFID Links & Resources * Division of Responsibility (sDOR) [http://ellynsatterinstitute.org] — Ellyn Satter Institute * Podcast with Naureen Hunani [https://snutrition.substack.com/p/prioritizing-felt-safety-in-the-feeding-5ba]on prioritizing felt safety in feeding. Sunny Side Up posts to support this episode * Sunny Side Up Feeding Framework [https://urls.grow.me/pU3zU4dWtN?utm_source=substack] * Tips for Serving Dessert with Dinner [https://urls.grow.me/gOFEFtjjXj?utm_source=substack] * Handling Halloween Candy: A Step-by-Step Parent Guide [https://urls.grow.me/Yerm7j5kd?utm_source=substack] * A Simple Guide to Eliminate Diet Culture from Halloween [https://urls.grow.me/YaOPXArYb?utm_source=substack] Other links * Caffè Panna [https://www.caffepanna.com/]: the ice cream Elizabeth ordered. * Pinney Davenport Nutrition, PLLC [https://www.pinneydavenportnutrition.com/] * Lutz, Alexander & Associates Nutrition Therapy [https://lutzandalexander.com/] * Photo by Angela Mulligan [https://unsplash.com/@angelamulligan?utm_source=unsplash&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=creditCopyText] on Unsplash [https://unsplash.com/photos/boy-in-red-and-blue-striped-long-sleeve-shirt-holding-brown-wooden-chopping-board-pJJcl8UJ7dg?utm_source=unsplash&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=creditCopyText] Share this episode with a friend who’s navigating mealtime worries. Transcript Elizabeth Davenport (00:01)Welcome back to Sunny Side Up Nutrition. Hi, Anna. Today we’re going to talk about a really common worry parents bring up: What if my child eats too much or too little? Anna Lutz (00:04)Hi, Elizabeth.Right, I feel like this is a universal concern. Parents are always worrying about how much their child is eating. Sometimes they’re worried they’re eating too much. Sometimes they’re worried they’re eating too little. I feel it’s never just right—thinking about Goldilocks. That’s what parents do best, including myself—worry. But we all want our kids to grow up, grow well, and be healthy, of course. Elizabeth Davenport (00:31)Yeah. Anna Lutz (00:35)I think what we really want to talk about today is how diet culture sends so many confusing messages to parents and kind of fuels that worry—fuels the worry of parents—so that they focus a ton on what their child should eat, how much their child should eat, etc. Elizabeth Davenport (00:56)Yeah, exactly. And so we’re going to talk about where those worries come from and why restriction and pressure to eat certain foods—more food, less food—backfire, and what parents can do instead to support their child’s relationship with food. Let’s jump in. Yes. Anna Lutz (01:15)That’s right. I’m really excited—I’m excited about this episode because I think most parents can relate to this. Elizabeth Davenport (01:19)Me too. Yes, I mean, we both can, right? Anna Lutz (01:25)Of course—100%, 100%. And it can change day to day. It almost can be humorous—how you’re worrying about one thing one day and then the next day you’re worrying about the opposite. Yeah. So yeah, let’s jump in. Why do parents’ worries about their child eating either “too much” or “too little”—those are in quotes—usually come from? Elizabeth Davenport (01:36)Exactly.I mean, as you said in the beginning, diet culture really has such a strong influence over everything that we believe about food. And social media—I mean, it’s all over social media: how much kids should be eating, what they should be eating. And it’s confusing even because it’s visual, and parents may see pictures of lunchboxes or plates and think, “My gosh, wait, I’m feeding my kid too much,” or “My gosh, I’m not feeding my kid enough or enough of the right foods.” And so I think one: I’ll caution, right? For parents, it’s so easy to compare what we’re doing to what’s out there. And really we have to do what we know is best, and it’s impossible to fully know how much is in those pictures when people show how much they’re feeding their kids.Other places that parents get these messages are from conversations with well-meaning pediatricians or other healthcare providers—also well-meaning family members, certainly grandparents. No hate— Anna Lutz (02:41)Very true. Elizabeth Davenport (02:59)—grandparents here because they can be really awesome, but they also sometimes forget what their role is, or it’s unclear what their role is. Right? And yeah—just, overarching, it comes from diet culture messaging. Anna Lutz (03:07)True. True.And often it’s linked—not always, but often—it’s linked to the child’s body size. Don’t you think? So if someone—whether it’s a pediatrician or family member or parent—is worried that the child is, “too big,” they’re focusing on, “Well, they must eat too much.” And then conversely, if there are worries about a child being “too small,” that kind of fuels the worry of, “My gosh, my child’s not eating enough.” Elizabeth Davenport (03:22)Yes. Anna Lutz (03:44)So that’s where that diet culture and weight bias really can make an impact and then translate to how we feed our children. Elizabeth Davenport (03:54)Exactly.And because there’s so much information available to us now, parents are just bombarded with this. Even if they’re not on social media, they’re bombarded with this kind of information. Anna Lutz (04:07)It’s so true—it’s so true. And I feel like it’s important to really note that when we see those images on social media that you mentioned—or someone says, “This is how much someone should eat”—there are so many more factors. Even us as dietitians, we would never be able to tell a parent, “This is exactly how much this child should eat at this meal.” Elizabeth Davenport (04:30)Exactly. Anna Lutz (04:31)Because they’re growing, their activity levels— Elizabeth Davenport (04:31)It’s a great point. Anna Lutz (04:34)— are different. It depends what they ate earlier in the day; it depends what they didn’t eat earlier in the day or last week. And so there’s not some magic amount that if we just knew what it was—because even as pediatric dietitians, it’s not something that is definable. Elizabeth Davenport (04:39)Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So this is a nice segue into why it’s so hard to really trust children to self-regulate their food intake. Anna Lutz (05:05)That’s such a good question because it’s kind of at the heart of it. I think because diet culture has so heavily influenced parenting and our medical system—and a big role of diet culture is to evoke fear—it tells us we can’t trust bodies. Elizabeth Davenport (05:29)Right. Anna Lutz (05:30)Right—we need to control bodies.And so instead of really telling parents, “You know what? Children’s bodies are wise, and your job is to support them in eating and, over time, developing their eating skills,” instead we’re told, “You need to make sure your child doesn’t eat too much of this, and you need to make sure your child eats enough of this.” These messages to parents are: don’t trust your child. And often parents aren’t trusting their own bodies, so then it’s a leap— Elizabeth Davenport (06:02)Exactly. Anna Lutz (06:03)—to then trust your child’s body.I think a few things to highlight here—and you probably have some ideas about this too—we’ve got research that really backs this up. One thing that comes to mind is research showing that when parents restrict their children’s eating— they might be worried their child’s eating too much and they restrict— —then what we actually see is increased eating and sneak eating as a result. And so it doesn’t “work.” If the goal is for the child to eat less, it doesn’t work for a parent to restrict their eating. What is some other— Elizabeth Davenport (06:34)Exactly. Anna Lutz (06:46)—research we should highlight? Elizabeth Davenport (06:51)Oh my gosh, that’s a good question. And I’ll be honest here—that is not one of my strengths, remembering the research. Anna Lutz (06:57)Well, I was thinking about how we know that pressure doesn’t help either. So, the opposite: if we’re worried a child isn’t eating enough and we start to say, “You have to eat this much,” that does not lead to an increase in intake. So again, it’s not working. And then there’s this study that I know we’ve mentioned many times on the podcast, but we’ll bring it up here: when parents— Elizabeth Davenport (07:03)Thanks.No. It does not. Anna Lutz (07:21)—restrict “highly palatable foods,” which probably was the old name for highly processed foods, then when children who were not allowed access to those foods in their home were exposed to those foods, they ate a whole lot more. Again, that kind of restriction didn’t lead to self-regulation. Elizabeth Davenport (07:24)Right. Right.Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.I thought you were asking me to name a research study. I definitely cannot do that—except for maybe that one where they feed kids lunch—both kids who’ve been restricted and kids who haven’t been restricted the highly palatable foods—and then they’re Anna Lutz (07:51)Oh, sorry—I was not putting you on the spot. Elizabeth Davenport (08:12)—sent into a room with toys and with free access to all of those foods. And yes—even when they’ve eaten all their lunch—those kids who are from restricted families go and eat more of those highly palatable foods than the kids who are used to having them. I mean, I’ve seen it in my own home. Anytime there’s a kid who’s been restricted those highly palatable foods, often—what I’ve seen—they are going to eat those foods first on a plate. Always. And that’s okay. That’s okay. You can tell when kids are sitting together at a table Anna Lutz (08:54)Great. Makes sense.Right. Elizabeth Davenport (09:04)with lots of different foods that include something highly palatable—like, I don’t know, Goldfish crackers or Cheez-Its—the ones who don’t have them on a regular basis or feel restricted are the kids who really have a hard time self-regulating. Anna Lutz (09:17)Right, right. That’s true. Elizabeth Davenport (09:29)I just got us way off the topic, I think.And I want to make sure here that we also bring up our Sunny Side Up Feeding Framework, and step three of that framework is: trust your child to eat and grow. Anna Lutz (09:44)Which is—it’s so amazing that in our culture, that’s such a big lift, right? So that’s why we want to support parents in that. But that is so important to our children. And these kinds of examples of research that we’re discussing show that when that trust is eroded, it doesn’t help. When we’re not trusting our children, it doesn’t— Elizabeth Davenport (09:56)Exactly.Right.Exactly. And I think another thing that we see so often—and want to make sure we note—is that it’s important that kids are not fed based on their body size. Anna Lutz (10:22)That’s a huge one. Let that sink in. I think that’s a huge one. And this piece of research people might be surprised about: there’s research that really shows that children in larger bodies—larger children—do not necessarily eat more than children that are smaller. I mean, if we really think about that fact, then trying to make larger children eat less makes no sense. Elizabeth Davenport (10:57)No, and it’s sad. It makes me sad to think about it. And this is one of the pitfalls, right, that parents fall into: they’re under so much pressure and feel so much like it is their job— Anna Lutz (11:02)Yeah, yeah.Right. Elizabeth Davenport (11:15)—to control what and how much their kids eat. Then also, you know, that translates into controlling the child’s weight. Anna Lutz (11:23)Yep, 100%. What do you think are some other pitfalls that parents try when they’re worried about how much their child eats, and how do they backfire? Elizabeth Davenport (11:26)Well, there are quite a few ways, but we talked a little bit about it just a second ago with restriction. Really limiting certain foods—or limiting seconds—also is a big one. If a child is in a larger body, parents will tend to feel like they can’t allow their child to have seconds because they feel like they can’t trust that they’re not eating more than they need. Anna Lutz (11:44)Right. Yep. Elizabeth Davenport (12:02)And the reality is some kids just love to eat. They’re more enthusiastic, or they’re hungrier, or they have been restricted and aren’t sure how much they’re going to get the next time they eat—and so they are over-focused on the food.I think another pitfall is pressuring kids to finish everything or to take another bite—trying to reward them to finish their food—and also saying, “Look, your sister ate all of her food—what a great job she did,” and that really backfires. It makes kids feel bad; it pits them against each other; and what we know is that it— Anna Lutz (12:40)Right. Elizabeth Davenport (12:49)—maybe will help once in a while, but long term it doesn’t help a kid trust themselves, learn the foods that they like and don’t like, and learn to trust their internal cues. Yeah. And I always feel like I have to say: we’re not criticizing parents at all here. This is— Parents are under so much—so much pressure, as we said in the beginning and as we always say—to feed in some perfect way. And it’s just not possible. No, it doesn’t.And then there’s another pitfall: you’re worried that your child isn’t eating enough, and so parents fall into this really—what we call—permissive feeding. Anna Lutz (13:20)Right.And it exists. Yeah. Elizabeth Davenport (13:38)Some examples might be allowing your child to graze in between meals—like carrying around a snack cup. Anna Lutz (13:50)Right, right, right. The kind you stick your hand in, but they don’t spill. Yeah. Elizabeth Davenport (14:04)Exactly. Or allowing them to carry around a sippy cup of milk or juice; or only serving their prepared foods—or sorry, only serving the foods that they like to eat— Anna Lutz (14:11)Right—right, absolutely. Elizabeth Davenport (14:14)—because you’re really worried. And that also backfires because, one, kids are going to—most kids are going to—get bored of eating the same things over and over again, and then they’re not going to eat more. Some kids don’t, and that’s a different conversation. But yeah. Anna Lutz (14:28)Right, I think those are all important examples of where that worry can start to erode the feeding relationship and how we approach food as parents. I think about when we’re working with parents in our practices and there might be worry that a child is accelerating quicker than expected on their weight growth curve, or they’re decelerating —not gaining weight fast enough—often the recommendation is the exact same, which is: do not allow grazing; don’t short-order cook; provide structure. It’s the same regardless of what might be going on, which I always find interesting. Elizabeth Davenport (15:15)Yeah—that’s—yeah, and that’s a very important point also. Anna Lutz (15:21)Yep. Elizabeth Davenport (15:23)I think this leads us into creating structure, right? And we talk about this a lot, and we want to be clear here that it’s possible to create structure without restricting your child’s intake. So let’s talk a little bit about why structure with meals and snacks is so important, and how it can help in this situation when parents are worrying about how much or how little their child might be eating. Anna Lutz (15:57)Great. Well, I think you and I really like to talk about feeding as a developmental task that we—as parents—are supporting our child in learning. Structure helps the child know that they’re supported.Something we really think about is children having that “felt safety.” When Noreen Hunami was on our podcast, she mentioned felt safety. It’s a term that was first used by Dr. Purvis. It’s when parents make sure a child’s environment elicits a true sense of safety—the child feels safety truly in their body. So a child can be safe, but may not feel safe. And so that structure tells the child - “I know my mom’s going to feed me. I know my mom’s going to feed me meals—the food that I need—in a predictable way.” Even though we don’t have to say that to our children, if it just happens, it can help evoke that felt safety for a child. For some kids, that might be a little bit more structure—they need that to feel more safe. Elizabeth Davenport (17:03)Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anna Lutz (17:06)For some kids, it might be a little bit less structure—and that’s where responsive feeding comes in. We can keep talking about that. But that’s a big reason why structure is helpful. What popped into my mind is: so often in our practices, you and I see kids that may have been given the jobs of food a little too early—when they were too young. And for those children, it may have made them feel not so safe. They might not have been able to say, “Hey, I need some more structure with my food,” Elizabeth Davenport (17:18)Yeah. Okay. Anna Lutz (17:37)—but that’s when we might see some concerns about their eating. And then, when the parents step in and are like, “I’ve got your food,” their eating might improve. Elizabeth Davenport (17:48)Right. I’m thinking now about the permissive feeding, and this is one where parents sometimes are so worried about their kids eating that they will say, “Do you want this, this, this, or—” which can be overwhelming for the child—or they want the child to decide. When in actuality, that’s the parent’s job. And that’s where you can bring some of that structure back in. If you’re giving your child a bunch of choices, practice either giving them two choices or just saying, “This is what we’re having,” and not feeding them foods that you know are going to be problematic for them. That’s not what I mean—I’m not serving them liver and onions. Anna Lutz (18:31)Right.Unless that is what your family has. Okay—okay, that makes sense for you to say that. Yeah, but I think what you’re saying is: if someone’s listening and they’re like, “What do they mean by structure?” What we’re talking about is the parents—Ellyn Satter’s Division of Responsibility is a good place to start— Elizabeth Davenport (18:38)My mom used to make liver and onions. I did not like it.Okay, yeah. Anna Lutz (18:59)—the parents deciding when and what is served so that the child has regular, predictable meals and they’re not having to make these kind of adult decisions of what to have at the meal. Elizabeth Davenport (19:13)Exactly. And I think, you know, I’m thinking about young kids, but it’s important to make the point that this also applies to older kids. I see this so often—sorry.And if you listen to us on a regular basis, you know we talk about all of these things and these themes are woven through all of our podcast episodes. But it’s also important for tweens and teens: they’re often given these jobs before they’re ready. They look like adults. They sound like adults sometimes. And so we think they can take on the task of— Anna Lutz (19:36)Right. Elizabeth Davenport (19:53)—making all the decisions about what they’re eating and when to eat. And they often will need parents to come back in and give them some structure around that again. Yeah, I’m trying to think if there are some other examples of structure we could give that might— Anna Lutz (20:05)Well, something that came to mind was thinking about teenagers, where there might be times we’re not preparing the food and handing it to them, but we’re providing structure with asking questions and acknowledging. Just this morning, I was driving a child to school and I said, “Do you have your lunch? Do you have your pre-workout snack—or pre-athletic team snack?” Right? Those were packed the night before. Anna Lutz (20:42)But there’s something in the structure of just saying, “This is important. I’m going to make sure you have it because it’s so important for your day.” If a child’s going out with friends, you might say, “Hey, what are your plans for dinner?” You’re providing that structure in a reminder way. Yeah. Elizabeth Davenport (20:57)Exactly, exactly. I mean, I have to admit I’m doing a little bit of that with my college students—saying, instead of “Make sure to eat your fruits and vegetables,” I’m asking, “Are you finding any that you really like? Any that you don’t like? What’s available?” That kind of thing. Because part of me is worried, right? At least my youngest, who doesn’t have an apartment to cook in— Anna Lutz (21:08)Great.Right. Elizabeth Davenport (21:28)—an apartment kitchen—is maybe not—right? So that’s also a way to say it’s totally natural to worry. And it’s also totally okay to still be providing some structure—very lightly—even when they’re older. Anna Lutz (21:31)Right. So that reminder—Yeah.That’s right. And that’s where you’re slowly taking down the scaffolding as they get older and older and older. That’s exactly right. Elizabeth Davenport (21:52)And every child has different needs. Anna Lutz (21:57)That’s important—and personality. That’s right. Elizabeth Davenport (21:59)And their needs can change. Needs can—right? There can be times where they don’t need much structure, but certainly during a transition—the start of school, the start of a new after-school activity— Anna Lutz (22:13)Right.Yep. 100%. Elizabeth Davenport (22:16)—those can all be times where they might need a little more structure. All right. So what else do we need to chat about? Anna Lutz (22:19)Yep, exactly, exactly.Yeah, so I was thinking: let’s talk a little bit about children’s appetites since we’re talking about parents worrying about how much a child eats. Are they eating too much? Are they eating too little? Let’s talk a little bit about how much children’s appetite—or their hunger and fullness—changes day to day. Elizabeth Davenport (22:33)Yeah.Oh my gosh. I mean, if we think about our own hunger and fullness as adults, right—it changes day to day. Anna Lutz (22:49)Right.Absolutely. Elizabeth Davenport (22:55)So if you’re a parent and you’re having a hard time with, “My gosh, my child is not eating three meals and two to three snacks a day—what is happening?” you might ask yourself—think about your own eating. I think it’s important to say that it’s completely normal, for lack of a better word for kids to eat more at some times and what we might think of as “too little” or “too much” at other times. They might be tired, so they might not eat as much. Certainly with little kids—toddlers, preschoolers—they’re tired by the end of the day. They are just not going to eat much dinner, most likely. They’re going to eat more when they come home from daycare or preschool—if that’s what they’re in—than they will at dinner.I also think of kindergartners. If you think of a kid who was in a half-day preschool and then they start kindergarten, they are probably going to be starving when they get home at the end of the day and just exhausted. They might not even make it to dinner. They might need to go to bed - when they’re first starting kindergarten—before dinner. So there just might be something going on. I mean, we could have a whole episode on reasons that people eat different amounts. So I think the overarching message is to trust—going back to that— Anna Lutz (24:09)Right, right. Elizabeth Davenport (24:29)—step three in the feeding framework: really trust your children to eat and grow. And that can help parents feel like, “Okay, I don’t have to try to control the exact amounts that my child is taking in.” Anna Lutz (24:46)That’s right. That’s right. It really goes back to that trust, which is hard, because every part of our culture is trying to pull us away from trusting our children on that. But if you can go back to—if a child eats a ton at a meal, they’re probably really hungry and they— Elizabeth Davenport (24:54)Exactly.—really hungry! Or they love the food. Or both. Yeah.Exactly. Exactly.Yeah. It’s very hard. It is very hard. And, you know, if you do find yourself worrying, “My gosh, is my kid eating too much or too little?” you can ask yourself: where is that coming from for you? I kind of jumped ahead here, but one of the things we wanted to ask is: what is one small step that parents can take today that can help them trust their children with food? Anna Lutz (25:48)One thing I think about is: if you feel like you could do more with just regular, predictable meals and snacks, say, “Okay, I’m going to really work on making sure I’m feeding my child breakfast and a morning snack and a lunch”—depending on the age of the child and a lot of other things—“in a very predictable way.” Elizabeth Davenport (26:08)Right, right. Anna Lutz (26:10)And I’m going to really—when I do that—try to take a deep breath and let my child decide how much they’re going to eat at each time. That’s one. Elizabeth Davenport (26:17)And what they’re going to eat of what you serve. Anna Lutz (26:20)That’s right.Another step you could take is to just really notice—notice when you start to get worried about your child eating too much or too little—and see if you can take a deep breath and be like, “Whoop, there I go again.” And not say anything, not do anything—just start to notice when that worry starts to bubble up. Elizabeth Davenport (26:25)Right.That’s always my favorite recommendation to start with: really noticing what’s happening—stepping back and noticing how you feel, noticing the thoughts that go through your head.Another action I was thinking of—and this goes back to us talking about how much feeding advice is out there, just so, so much—if you find yourself (and that includes our social media, right?) following some social media accounts that are making you feel stress and making you question— Anna Lutz (27:09)Right. Elizabeth Davenport (27:17)—that you feel is eroding your trust, or not helping build your trust in your child’s ability to eat and grow—then unfollow that account. And just take a break and notice what comes up for you after you take that break—or while you’re taking that break. Anna Lutz (27:27)Yep, absolutely.Yep. That’s a great one.I love that. I love that.So, we’ve been talking a lot about parents worrying about how much their children eat and really focusing on trusting your child. I feel like we’d be remiss not to bring up when children are on ADHD medications or maybe they’ve been diagnosed with ARFID, which is an eating disorder—it stands for avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. Elizabeth Davenport (27:44)Mm-hmm.Yeah. Anna Lutz (28:03)When there are these conditions going on, for the parents out there who are saying, “Wait a minute, I’m worried my child doesn’t eat enough—they’re on ADHD medications and they never get hungry.” How can we talk a little bit to those parents? What can they keep in mind? Elizabeth Davenport (28:18)Right, right.Certainly with ADHD medication—those often do interfere with the child’s appetite. And that’s a situation where your child’s not going to feel hungry, and some of that structure is going to be reminding them, “Okay, it’s time to eat,” and eat—even though you don’t feel hungry—because when the medication wears off, kids can feel overly hungry and almost out of control at times. So that’s one.And then I think—it’s such a complex situation. I’m trying to think of a specific example, but the situations are so different. The bottom line is: this is a situation where a kid is really not able to tolerate the foods, and so really working on initially allowing your child to eat the foods that they feel safe eating. And yes, I know that sounds like us contradicting what we said earlier, but this is a different situation. Anna Lutz (29:17)That’s right.And that’s when our hope is that you’re getting very personalized, individualized support. So the advice we’re giving here may not be for someone with an eating disorder—or it may need to be adapted for someone with an eating disorder—and then when medications come into play, too.These might be examples—tell me if you think this is too much to say—of where we can’t unfortunately trust our child’s hunger and fullness as much as we hope that one day we can, right? Or as much as we’re saying, “Okay, just trust your child’s body.” These might be situations where other things are going on, and so let’s get a little bit more support in place so that your child is getting the food they need. Elizabeth Davenport (29:31)Yes.Exactly. Elizabeth Davenport (30:05)Right. Right. Yeah, at some point we can do a whole episode on ARFID. Anna Lutz (30:09)That would be great. We should probably do— Elizabeth Davenport (30:16)Would be. But I think—just a few reminders as we wrap up here. It is completely normal to worry about your child’s eating. We all do it. Yes, I do too. I do too. And the strategies to try to control how much or how little they’re eating—or what they’re eating—backfire. Really, part of the structure is stepping back a little bit and trusting that they are going to— Anna Lutz (30:42)All right. Elizabeth Davenport (31:08)—continue to develop their eating skills. And remember that when you’re worrying about how much or how little they’re eating, how much kids eat varies—from meal to snack, day to day, week to week, month to month. It’s going to change all the time. It’s one thing if it’s decreasing all the time and they’re taking foods out—and that’s for another episode, right? But—We’ll be sure to link to relevant podcasts that we’ve done in the past and blog posts in the show notes. And if you’d like to join our membership, Take the Frenzy Out of Feeding, for a deeper dive into raising kids with a healthy relationship with food, we’d love for you to join us. You can find the link in the show notes, or on our website under the Courses tab. So— Anna Lutz (31:24)Yeah.That’s right. Elizabeth Davenport (31:31)We didn’t come up with what we wanted to end with. We usually end with a question or a—what’s your favorite food? My favorite food right now is ice cream. I ordered—what’s that? Anna Lutz (31:39)Yum. Is there a certain flavor you’ve been enjoying? Elizabeth Davenport (31:44)I mean, I’ll tell you a certain— I got myself a gift and ordered ice cream from a shop in New York City. I’ve wanted to try their ice cream since they opened. Anytime we’ve been there, I just haven’t been able to get there. So I thought, “Wait a minute, I can have it shipped to me.” I mean, it was not cheap, but I love ice cream, and it was such a—I’ve really loved having it around. I’ve loved it. Yeah. It’s called Cafe Pana if you live in New York— Anna Lutz (31:51)Wow.Neat. That’s so neat.What is it called again? Neat. Tell me the name of it again. Elizabeth Davenport (32:12)—or you’re visiting New York. It’s really—I mean, it’s the real deal. What’s that?Cafe Pana. Yep, yep. So, how about you? Anna Lutz (32:21)Very cool. That sounds awesome.I’ve been enjoying—I was just having some before we recorded—the truffle almonds from Trader Joe’s. Elizabeth Davenport (32:32)I don’t think I’ve ever had those. I need to get some and try them. Anna Lutz (32:33)And they are so much better than the ones you get at Whole Foods. And they’re like half the price, but they’re just perfect. Highly recommend. Elizabeth Davenport (32:39)Okay.Nice.Okay. All right. Ice cream and truffle almonds. Yeah. Yeah. All right—until next time. Bye. Anna Lutz (32:48)There you go.See you next time. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit snutrition.substack.com [https://snutrition.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Episode 109: What To Do If Your Child Says "I'm Fat".

In our latest podcast episode, Anna and I talk about how parents can navigate a conversation, when a child says, “I’m fat.” In Episode 109, we unpack why this moment feels so charged, and how to respond with curiosity and care. We talk about the baggage our culture places on the word “fat,” why a one-size-fits-all script doesn’t exist, and how parents can validate their child’s feelings. You’ll hear what not to say, what to try instead and when to consider seeing additional support. We also share practical ideas for building body respect at home and how to circle back if your first response didn’t go the way you hoped. * Hit play for language you can use today plus encouragement for staying grounded. Do you have questions or a topic you’d like us to cover on the podcast? You can also email us at hello@sunnysideupnutrition.com or DM us on Instagram at @sunnysideupnutrition [https://www.instagram.com/sunnysideupnutrition/]. Links * More-love.org, Ginny Jones [https://more-love.org/] * The Truth Behind Your Tween Daughter Calling Herself Fat [https://more-love.org/2019/06/26/what-to-do-when-your-tween-daughter-calls-herself-fat/], Ginny jones * Parenting Without Diet Culture, Oona Hanson [https://substack.com/@oonahanson] * Pinney Davenport Nutrition, PLLC [https://www.pinneydavenportnutrition.com/] * Lutz, Alexander & Associates Nutrition Therapy [https://lutzandalexander.com/] * Photo by Juliane Liebermann [https://unsplash.com/@jule_42?utm_content=creditCopyText&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=unsplash] on Unsplash [https://unsplash.com/photos/woman-in-blue-denim-jeans-and-black-jacket-walking-with-woman-in-green-jacket-Pw7i-YVg5uM?utm_content=creditCopyText&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=unsplash] Transcript Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (00:00.524) Okay. Hi, Anna. How are you? Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (00:02.761) Hey Elizabeth, how are you? Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (00:06.52) Good, I’m good. It’s good to see you. So today we are talking about what to do when your child says, I’m fat. This can be such a tough moment for parents. It’s layered with so many of our own experiences with cultural weight bias and with assumptions that we might make about what our child is feeling. And kids are all different sizes and may mean totally different things when they use the word “fat”. There isn’t, and it’s important to know that there isn’t one right response, but our hope is that today’s conversation gives you tools and ideas for how to respond if this comes up in your home. And it has certainly come up in my home for sure. So, and it is really tough to know how to respond. Parents often panic when their child says I’m fat. So let’s talk about why this comment feels so alarming. And really it leaves parents almost feeling kind of like they’re on their back, back foot. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (01:29.215) That’s so true. I mean, I think what it comes down to is that our culture has equated the word fat with bad. Like everywhere we look, we’re getting these messages that fat is bad. know, many of us grew up that that word was an insult. And as parents, of course, we want our kids to be happy and safe and accepted. And so hearing this word that we have been, you know, “cultureized” or taught that it is bad or as an insult, can really hit a nerve as a parent. And so, you know, we’re a product of all that. It’s not anyone’s fault. It’s just, it just is. I do think it’s important for us to talk a little bit about this word “fat,” because you might even notice as Elizabeth and I saying that you’re having a reaction to it that would be normal again because of our culture. But it’s also important to know that some people are reclaiming it as a neutral descriptor. So some people are really saying, you know what, all it is, is a descriptor. Some people are thin, some people are fat, some people are tall, some people are short. It’s a descriptor. And they’re using the word fat to describe their own bodies and not in a mean or disparaging way. And so, of course, we want to teach our kids that insulting people or commenting on people’s body is never okay, but you know at the same time to know that some people use the word fat in a neutral way and that’s and that’s great. And so this is where this conversation can get a little sticky. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (03:15.132) Exactly, exactly. And the challenge, as you said, is that we live in a society where fat is often used as an insult. And even if you’re raising your child with body respect values, they’re still getting these negative messages from peers, from the media, and just our culture overall and school as well. I guess that’s peers and our culture. So how can we acknowledge that reality, affirm biodiversity, and stay curious about what our child means and communicate that changing their body isn’t the solution. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (03:58.175) It’s such an important and good question. And I feel like it’s a lot for us parents to balance, especially in the midst of us having our own reaction, right? We might be having our own reaction to it, but we’re trying to balance like, but we’re a body positive home and that’s a descriptive word, but are they insulting themselves? And did someone make fun of them? Right? Like all of this could be swirling in our head and it’s just so much to balance. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (04:25.693) It is, it is. And if the, you know, the child may be upset also, and it’s going to be maybe just hard for them to take in much of anything. so, but, but first, before I get ahead of ourselves, let’s start with what not to say when a child says I’m fat. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (04:43.849) Yeah, I love that question because it’s a good place to start, right? Because there’s so much nuance here, but let’s, let’s really, I love that. Let’s dive into what not to say. So I think both of us really would recommend that you not say, “No, you’re not,” right? Because then you’re reinforcing that fat is this bad, bad, bad thing. And like, “goodness gracious, no, you’re not”. Because they might be fat, right? Your child might be in a larger body. And you’re also, again, don’t want to be reinforce this idea that it’s inherently bad. You don’t want to say, “Well, I’ll help you lose weight”. Let’s do X, Y, Z. Let’s change your food in some way. You don’t want to say that. you know, is, again, reinforcing that your child’s body is the problem and that there’s some kind of “solution,” to the problem. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (05:35.978) Right? And that they need to change their body. Yeah. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (05:37.983) Exactly, exactly. And then the other one that comes to my mind is don’t say, “oh, don’t worry, you’ll grow out of it.” Right? Because again, first of all you don’t know that. Second of all, you’re reinforcing the idea that something’s bad and wrong that needs to change. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (05:56.203) Yeah, yeah, I know when we were when when I certainly when I was a kid What you often heard people say is it’s baby fat and you’ll grow out of it Yeah, which is just not that means there’s it’s something that needs to change which is not the case. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (06:14.015) Exactly. And I think, of course, these are well-meaning responses. know, of course, as parents, we just want the best for our kids. They’re well-meaning, but like, as we mentioned, they can reinforce these harmful ideas. So instead, right, I know something you and I really talk about, instead of jumping in with the answers, like these things that we just named of what not to say, instead we want to pause. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (06:43.377) And be curious with our child. So that can be hard for me sometimes, Elizabeth, for me to bite my tongue and to pause. So I’m partly saying this to myself. I need to pause and be curious. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (06:55.848) Yes, exactly. I have the difficult time with it as well. Yeah, because we just want to help our kids really. And so, but yes, because when a child, one of the reasons that we want to kind of slow down and be curious is also because when a child says, I’m fat, they may not literally be talking about their body size. As we know, kids and adults are often expressing that they feel badly. And part of that is because the term fat is viewed as primarily as negative, but they could be expressing some kind of some other kind of discomfort, loneliness, frustration, anger, feeling left out and just any kind of they could be tired. So and the other thing is they could also be comparing themselves to others or just expressing some kind of awareness of their body. Right. So how can, yes, yes. So many things that can be going on. so how can parents gently explore what their child really means? I mean, I know we said initially pause, take a deep breath. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (08:05.949) Absolutely. Absolutely. There’s so much going on, right? Right. So I think the thing is to ask open-ended questions. And I know this is something I have to actively practice when I’m having an emotional reaction to anything. My child might say, this is my default is to be like, let’s ask some questions instead of going into fix it mode. So you might ask questions and this curiosity may sound like, “well, what do you mean by that?” Or “tell me more about that.” It opens that door to understanding what your child is really feeling rather than making assumptions, assuming that they’re feeling what you’re feeling. So once we’ve paused, taken a deep breath, maybe asked them open ended questions…what are some supportive responses that we could say instead of that kind of reassurance that we said not to say, reassurance about their appearance? What could we say that would be supportive? Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (10:05.426) So there are a number of responses that we recommend. And of course, this is going to vary based on your child’s age and just your child’s personality in general. You know what your child is going to respond well to and what they’re not going to respond well to. you know, parents can acknowledge and validate the underlying feelings, right? Maybe it’s as we said, could be loneliness, frustration, comparing themselves to other people. One thing you might say is it really sounds like you feel left out. That never feels good. Or you might just affirm, not just, but you might affirm that again, that bodies come in all different sizes and that all bodies deserve respect. And then if your child’s being teased, be clear that it’s with your child, which you know, if they’re being raised, they probably, you probably have been clear with them that this is the case, but remind them that it’s never okay to criticize someone’s body or use that as an insult. You can really offer them some support and see if help is needed from a teacher. And again, this is a difficult one, right? If it’s an older kid, they probably aren’t going to want you. To talk to a teacher. They’re probably going to say, no, no, don’t talk to a teacher. And I’ll just quickly say here that, and this is a whole really probably another episode, but you know, and I know I can speak for you as well, Anna, we both firmly believe that criticizing kids for their bodies, making negative comments, that that really fall, that that falls under bullying. And really needs to be addressed in the bullying policies and information that schools share with kids and their parents. And it needs to be reviewed throughout the year, I think, because people think it’s just, it’s okay. You know, people view it as something that’s just like, they’re just being kids. And that’s just not the case at all. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (12:15.099) Absolutely. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (12:27.649) So back, back to what we were talking about. So just another question here is what if your child’s in a larger body and, comparing themselves to their peers? How would you, you know, what can we say about that? Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (12:46.207) So that’s a great question. So cause again, like we said, kids come in all shapes and sizes. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (13:05.585) So I think that’s a good thing to acknowledge that bodies vary, right? Talk to your child about body diversity and you might even compare, look, my foot’s bigger than your foot or my foot is, you know, smaller than your dad’s foot. know, think through, there’s, bodies are different and they’re supposed to be different. So you can acknowledge that. But, you know, again, the key is we want to really make sure our child understand that is you really want to tease out with your child. Are they criticizing themselves? Are they using that word meanly to themselves? Or are they just simply noticing differences? So, it’s important to tease that out and be curious with your child so that you can affirm that their body is right just the way it is, acknowledge that there’s this body diversity, and at the same time, make sure they’re not putting themselves down. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (14:06.267) So kind of the flip of that, if a child is in a thinner body and calls themselves fat, what should a parent say? Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (14:16.282) I mean the same thing, really, as much as can, as best you can. Take a breath, stay curious, and ask what they mean. And again, remind them that all bodies deserve respect and that using fat is an insult and it’s harmful. We’re gonna shift gears just a little bit and talk about a little bit about what parents can do on an ongoing basis to encourage body respect at home. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (14:53.663) Yeah, I think that topic’s so important because we might not be able to react great in the moment when our emotions are high. So if we can give ourselves a break sometimes and know like, well, I’m working on this day in and day out. And that’s really what’s more important is like what we’re doing day in and day out. And also so that in the moment, it aligns with how you’re talking about bodies in general. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (15:45.416) So on an ongoing basis, parents can, well the first thing to think about I think is that parents can do their own work around this. So if you’re really noticing, feeling really activated when these topics come up, maybe reflect on what you need to do. And that might be how you talk about food and bodies at home. A parent might really work on avoiding any kind of dieting. They might work on practicing body acceptance themselves and you might decide you need some support around that, whether that’s support from a loved one or a professional. That can have a huge impact on your children as if you work on your own beliefs about food and bodies. But inside your home, you might really think about using what kind of language are you using day in and day out about bodies? Are you insulting yourself? And so it would make sense. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (16:38.959) Know, that you’re, if you’re insulting yourself and calling your body names, it might not be a surprise if your child starts to do that, right? And so really thinking, okay, how am gonna talk about my own body? How am I gonna talk about other people’s bodies? And then it makes it easier when these conversations come up because you’ve been modeling this kind of ongoing. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (16:48.355) Exactly. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (17:04.025) Yeah, such good information is really helpful. Hopefully parents who are listening, I hope you’re finding this super helpful. And, you know, sometimes as we’ve talked about that when kids are commenting negatively about their bodies, it can be a sign of something deeper, like low self-esteem or even the beginning, or the start of disordered eating. So how can parents know when they need to seek additional support? Which is a big question. Yeah. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (17:42.752) That’s a great question. Yeah, it’s a great question. Some things that come to my mind are if a child is isolating themselves, maybe their personality has changed, they’re not spending as much time with friends if they usually do, or you’re noticing a big change in their eating. Sometimes that can be disguised as cutting out entire food groups. So kind of noticing, are they talking derogatory about themselves? And it’s also changing their behaviors, whether it’s how they interact with the world or how they interact with food. Those are some, those are the things that pop into my mind of where you might be like, you know what, I think we’re gonna, you know, find some other people for you to talk to in addition to me. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (18:30.937) Right. And I’d add if there’s been a change in their, especially an increase in their physical activity or concerns about being physically active. And then I think I’d add to find resources. just always encourage parents really to, well, you can always email us and we’ll help you connect you with someone in your part of the country who is weight inclusive, anti-diet, dietitian or therapist or both if you’re looking for both. So Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (19:02.431) Absolutely. And I think we’re going to link a few resources in the show notes, but someone who comes to mind is Ginny Jones, who we’ve had on this podcast before, and she’s written some wonderful articles about this topic, and she’s a great resource. So if you’re feeling like you need support as a parent, she’s an additional resource. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (19:14.148) Yes! Yes, and Oona Hansen as well has been on our podcast and has some great resources, including her newsletter. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (19:37.44) Great. So for the parents that are listening, what do you feel like is one takeaway you’d like parents to leave this conversation? Because there’s a lot, we’ve said a lot, every conversation with a child is different. Obviously, we haven’t hit every scenario, but what do you want a parent listening to this to leave this conversation with? Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (20:01.124) I mean, so I would say, don’t deny, you know, as best you can, don’t deny your child’s words with you’re not fat. Because that only reinforces the idea that fatness is something bad and something to be changed. And instead, validate their feelings. As we keep saying, invite curiosity and center body diversity and respect. And really as much as you can stay calm. This is a lot of things. It’s more than one thing really, but stay calm. Use neutral language. And if you need to, which can always be helpful, check in on where the message came from, right? Did it come from peers? Did it come from a family member, the school or media? Where is the information coming from can also be helpful. And then Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (20:37.343) Great. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (20:59.319) Just I think overall remembering that you don’t ever want children, we don’t ever want a child to feel like there’s something wrong with their body or that their body needs to be changed. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (21:13.279) Absolutely, And I was just thinking, I think it’s important to add that it’s okay to go back to your child if you feel like you wish you had handled the conversation differently. I think that’s important to remember in anything about parenting. But if you feel like it surprised you and you said some things you wish you hadn’t said. The great thing is that you can go back and it’s great to model that to a child anyway, to go back and be like, that conversation didn’t go as well as I would have liked. Would it be okay if we talked about it some more? I really would like to say what I wish I had said. And so to give yourself grace that this is hard. This is like changing the culture in your home against this kind of overlying culture that’s just everywhere, pervasive culture everywhere that is filled with weight bias. So give yourself some grace. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (22:09.28) Yes, it’s a very important reminder. Well, Anna, that’s all for today. Thank you all for joining us and feel free to email us with questions. Our email is heilo@sunnysideupnutrition.com. You can also put questions in in Substack when we share the podcast episode or you can DM us on Instagram. And we’re always happy to answer questions or connect people with resources. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (22:42.821) Absolutely. Thanks, Elizabeth, for having this important conversation with me and join us. Elizabeth Davenport, MPH, RD (22:46.614) Yes, yes, yes, likewise. Bye. Anna Lutz, MPH, RD (22:50.783) Bye. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit snutrition.substack.com [https://snutrition.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Podcast Episode 108 - Fueling the Future: Nourishing Teen Athletes

We have another episode for you where I’m joined by Anna Mackay, an original co-host of the podcast with Anna Lutz and me. Anna lives on the other side of the world these days, but she and I were able to catch up and record a few episodes this summer while she was visiting the US. I’m sure you’ll enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed talking with Anna Mackay! Podcast Episode 108: Nourishing Teen Athletes with Anna Mackay In this conversation, Elizabeth and Anna Mackay discuss the unique nutritional needs of teen athletes, emphasizing the importance of fueling for growth and performance. They explore tips for building healthy relationships with food, the role of parents in supporting their teens, and practical strategies for fueling teen athletes in a number of different scenarios. The discussion also highlights the signs of under-fueling and provides resources for parents and teens to navigate nutrition effectively. Key takeaways * The unique nutritional needs of teen athletes. * The importance of food for growth and performance. * The roles parents play in fueling their teen athlete. * The importance of meal planning and preparation. * Suggestions for navigating teen athletes who don’t want to eat breakfast and those who are picky eaters. Links to resources * Podcast Ep. 69: Getting Diet Culture Out of Sports Culture with Rachel Manor [https://sunnysideupnutrition.com/episode/ep-69-getting-diet-culture-out-of-sports-culture-with-rachel-manor/] * Podcast Ep. 25: Sports Nutrition for Kids and Teens with Leslie Schilling [https://urls.grow.me/NbWQzDgXe?utm_source=substackhttps://sunnysideupnutrition.com/episode/ep-25-sports-nutrition-for-kids-teens-with-leslie-schilling/] * Leslie Schilling’s Dietitian Development Hub [https://schillingnutrition.com/nutrition-therapist-supervision/] * Podcast Ep. 28: Nourishing a Dancers Mind & Body with Monika Saigal [https://sunnysideupnutrition.com/episode/ep-28-nourishing-a-dancers-mind-body-with-monika-saigal/] * Podcast Ep. 59: Eating Disorders and Athletes with Shane Jeffery [https://sunnysideupnutrition.com/episode/ep-59-eating-disorders-and-athletes-with-shane-jeffrey/] * Hydration Essentials: All Fluids Fit [https://urls.grow.me/NbWQzDgXe?utm_source=substackhttps://sunnysideupnutrition.com/episode/ep-25-sports-nutrition-for-kids-teens-with-leslie-schilling/] * Opal Podcast: The Appetite [https://opalfoodandbody.com/podcast/] * Pinney Davenport Nutrition, PLLC [https://www.pinneydavenportnutrition.com/] * Lutz, Alexander & Associates Nutrition Therapy [https://lutzandalexander.com/] Did you miss my previous conversation with Anna Mackay? We chatted about meal planning for college and boarding students. * Episode 104: MealPlanning for College Students [https://open.substack.com/pub/snutrition/p/podcast-episode-104-meal-planning?r=4dvq2s&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true] Transcript I am so excited to say to our listeners that I am here with Anna Mackay, who, as those of you who've been with us for a long time know, Anna is really the impetus for starting the podcast during COVID. So Anna, I'm so excited you're here. Welcome, welcome. Anna Mackay (00:20) I am equally excited to be here and in the same time zone. Elizabeth (00:26) Yes, yeah. That's why we haven't been recording with Anna, because Anna's been in a very different time zone and busy ⁓ becoming a registered dietitian, which she is now officially a registered dietitian. yes, yay. And Anna is also a certified personal trainer. And so we thought she would be a great person to chat with. Elizabeth (00:51) Fueling teen athletes. So we'll jump in and let's just talk for a minute to let our listeners know kind of what you would say are the nutritional, you know, what makes the nutritional needs of teens, ⁓ teen athletes rather unique. Anna Mackay (01:06) Thanks. So I really like this question because I don't think it's something we think about. You sort of just, think often it's approached as like a one size fits all. But the main reason that teen nutritional needs are unique is because teens are still growing and developing, right? Their bones, muscles, their brains, their hormones are still maturing. And then you add training into the mix. And it doesn't matter what type of training, we could be talking about football, dancing, gymnastics, any type of training that is physically taxing to the body. And their nutritional needs are going to go way up. Food isn't just fuel for sport either. It's the raw material needed for building a strong, healthy body for life. And so that is what I think makes the nutritional needs for teens specifically unique. I'll also add that where adult athletes would be primarily focused on performance maintenance, teens are still in a phase of physical development and need food to support both their growth and performance. So they are going to need more energy in the form of calories, more protein, potentially more fluids, and more micronutrients like calcium and iron, for example, because of that growth and training. Elizabeth (02:31) So they have to pay, they and their parents really have to pay closer attention to their needs without creating an issue, right? Without it becoming a struggle. Well, so how can parents support teen athletes in building flexible, trusting relationships with food and really support them in. Also, this is really more than one question, support them in meeting their needs. Anna Mackay (02:59) So to answer, think the building of flexible and trusting relationship with food first. I would be interested actually Elizabeth in hearing what you think about this. For me, the first thing that comes to mind is never ever ever tying food to appearance. And for teen athletes, this is going to be very particularly important for the athletes who are in your very, what I would call body conscious sports, gymnastics, swimming, diving, also the sports where they are still, I think, at the elite level, weights are still being taken, wrestling and rowing, it is still happening. Maybe forgetting a sport where that happens, maybe boxing. Because as soon as a kid starts tying their food to how they look, it's impossible to have a flexible relationship with food because they're going to always have that little voice in their head saying, are you sure you want to eat that? It'll make them second guess their intuition. And so instead we can focus on how food helps them to perform by saying things like, this is going to help you recover faster, or this will give you more energy at practice. Keep conversations about weight or size out of it. And I'll just add to that, that it's really important for parents to also model this - modeling body respect yourself. Elizabeth (04:21) Yes, that's a huge one. I'm sitting here nodding and our listeners can't see me nodding. But yes, that's such a valuable point. Even if parents aren't saying anything, just watching, just the teens seeing how the parents are eating and seeing their relationship with food and physical activity. And the earlier that starts, the more solid a foundation the teens will have. Anna Mackay (04:45) Yeah, and one more thing I would add to that is we really, really need to get away from this idea that carbs are bad - absolutely essential. They are an essential component of good nutrition, both generally for every day for all of us, but particularly for athletic performance. Elizabeth (04:53) I'm so Yea Anna Mackay (05:07) You know, and I live on the other side of the world now, and I hear this all the time, and I'm sure in the States this is still a big thing where everyone's kind of... carbs are bad, reduce your carbs and protein’s king. We need both. We do. So, and you know, this belief that sort of looking a certain way is a part of athletic success is also incredibly harmful. I think the bottom line is that under fueling hurts performance, it slows recovery and it increases the risk of injury and burnout. And carbs are a really important part of that fueling. Elizabeth (05:39) Do you want to talk kind of high level on why carbs are so important? Anna Mackay (05:44) Well, it might be over-complicating things to go into the sort of biochemistry of it, but I think we can explain that, or it might be helpful to explain that carbs, when we ingest them, are converted into glucose. And glucose is how our bodies get energy. It is our brain's preferred source of energy. It is also your muscles' preferred source of energy. So that's where all your energy comes from. And the protein is the building block that helps provide the muscles with it's muscle building block, I think. Is that how you would explain it? Elizabeth (06:19) Yeah, 100%, 100%. And I think one thing that just popped into my mind when you were talking about this is, you know, parents are, you know, even if parents are modeling at home and really have laid a foundation for a positive relationship with food, it can still be so difficult because the parents are up against, and the teens, and the coaches are up against all the messaging that's out there in the media. And so that adds another layer to really making sure that teen athletes are fueled adequately. How can parents support teens to fuel eating for performance and recovery after practices and games? You really, do you feel like you said that? Anna Mackay (07:08) I mean, we could talk about packing snacks and sort of planning, being prepared. I think where people can get caught out in the planning for, or not planning, being able to support themselves adequately for performance and recovery when it comes to their practice schedules is in being under prepared or not being prepared at all. So if parents can help out with planning ahead so that your busy team, because these team athletes are so busy, they are, you know, you've got rowers getting up at 4:00 in the morning to hit the river at whatever time. If they already have packed in their sports bag, you know, their water, their whatever snack bars they like, or maybe it's a Tupperware with apples with another Tupperware that's got their peanut butter in it, whatever it is, if it's already in the bag, then it's going to go to practice with them. And the same way, you know, whether that's morning or afternoon, right? So you don't get caught with nothing to eat. And then making sure that you've got things available like the jar of peanut butter, the oats, the hard boiled eggs, the bars, whatever it is. And you're not going for perfection, right? You're going for consistency, variety, and just making sure that you're not skipping snacks or meals. Elizabeth (08:38) And the part about not going for perfection is so important. So let's just talk for a few minutes about how parents can help their teens recognize that there isn't a perfect way to eat for additional performance. How can parents ensure that eating remains a positive experience rather than this anxiety ridden exercise. Anna Mackay (09:03) Yes, there is no such thing as eating perfectly. It literally, it just doesn't exist. And most kinds of tracking and counting can quickly become obsessive, especially during the teenage years, which are, they're hard enough without angst over eating and how many steps and how many calories are in. So instead, we want to encourage listening to hunger cues, eating regularly. And including a variety of food. So consistency, adequacy, and listening to hunger cues. So, yeah, no, I was just gonna say, and unless prescribed by a dietitian for medical reasons, tracking isn't necessary. Elizabeth (09:45) 100%. Anna Mackay (09:46) I don’t care how elite the athlete is, really I don't. You know, and look, I will say here, I do know some dietitians who are on the team at, I'm talking really elite levels, where they may be working with an athlete on some sort of something that could be considered tracking, but the good dietitians will not be having the athlete do it alone. It will be medically supervised. And that's a really important thing to know because that's a very distinct thing from, you know, a high school basketballer doing it all by themselves and getting, you know, potentially falling down that rabbit hole of obsessive tracking. Elizabeth (10:25) Right. It's very easy to get bogged down in that and use that external cue as a way to eat as opposed to paying attention to their hunger and fullness and energy levels. So I have a couple kind of follow-up questions. What if someone really doesn't notice their hunger and fullness cues? Or especially their hunger cues. What about the kid who just really doesn't notice them or experiences them in some way that they aren't able to identify? What would you recommend for them? Anna Mackay (10:59) That's a great question. again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. My thoughts on that, that is going to be a child and a teenager who is going to need a little bit more structure. I think they just will need a bit more filling in the gaps by whether it's a parent or their dietitian. So a few more reminders, bit of encouragement. You're going off to practice. I know you're not very hungry. We talked about having these things that we know that sit well in your stomach. Can you make sure you've had one? Mm-hmm. know, and... It can be, you know, and also I think these don't have to be huge snacks. can be a relatively small smoothie, a piece of fruit, gentle reminders without pressure on how proper nutrition can enhance their performance, boost their energy levels, framing it as a way to help them succeed. So you're not sort of coming down on them. Saying, you you need this, this and this, or it's going to be a disaster. It's more just framing it as a way. This will help you succeed. And then for really selective eaters, Maybe you can answer that Elizabeth. I find that really, really tricky. My only piece of advice would be, think you have to keep pressure out of it, What would you say for people who... Elizabeth (12:21) So are we talking extremely picky eating or sort of your typical picky eater who's a teenager who's always been kind of picky? Anna Mackay (12:27) I would say the latter. Elizabeth (12:34) Okay, so in those situations, I would stick with what they're willing to eat and just really focus on that and not pressure them to eat. As you said, keep the pressure out of it. And you know, if the team's interested in increasing what they're eating, great. If they're not, I would let them be the driver on that. Because as teenagers get older, part of what they do is experiment, right? As part of their growth and development, and they're over time going to start to add in some new foods just on their own, right? They're going to see what their friends have and say, ⁓ maybe I'll try that. Right? And so that's how I think of it. There are going to be some kids who need a little bit more structure. But I think less is more. Less is more as long as they're meeting their nutritional needs. And if you're worried if they really don't eat many fruits and vegetables, you can always give them a a multivitamin. And I don't that's not always the answer. It's always you know, we always want kids to and adults to get what they need from the foods that they eat. But if you're worried they're not, it's not going to harm them to take a multivitamin, which can ease your mind, right? And ensure that they're— it's a little safety net. Anna Mackay (13:57) What if fruits and vegetables aren't the problem? If their selectiveness is more around protein? I think it's tricky for plant-based diets, for vegetarians. Elizabeth (14:15) Yes, that's really tough. That's really tough. I think if the kid is really picky and let's say they're vegetarian and they don't eat beans, right? Or let's say they're vegetarian and they don't eat nuts, right? those, or eggs, yes, yeah. Those are some major sources of protein. Yes, you can. Anna Mackay (14:30) Eggs. Elizabeth (14:37) Look to tofu to get some of those, some of that protein. And I think for teen athletes using protein powder can, I mean, it can really upset their stomachs. I say if a teen is really picky and they're plant-based, I would encourage them to think of themselves as a flexitarian and think about some non-plant-based, some animal products that they've eaten in the past that they might be willing to reintroduce so that they can get what they need. That is a tricky one. Taking your child to a dietitian can help because you can have someone outside of the family help with that. And I always encourage a dietitian with experience in eating disorder prevention, really well versed in it and a weight inclusive non-diet dietitian for that, which I know you would say the same thing. I that. Anna Mackay (15:36) I wholeheartedly agree. And I think that's where parents I've spoken to often say, well, how do you know when it's time to call a professional? And I think that is a juncture right there. You outlined it where if you find yourself as a parent trying to convince your child and you're getting a bit exasperated, you're feeling you're at a dead end. That's a great time to call a dietitian because they will, if it's a good fit particularly, and your kid may resist the idea, but be lighthearted about it. See, you know, just pitch it as, let's see how it goes. We're going to, this is all a part of supporting your, your wellbeing as an athlete. The dietitian should be able to make some inroads. And it might take a little bit of time, but it's better than you as the parent having to switch to pressuring. Elizabeth (16:31) Right. And then the teen who's working on becoming independent is very likely to push back. And so, yes, it may be hard to make any, to make any progress there. Yeah, that was a really good, that was a really good question, Anna. A good point to bring up. I'm curious also, and you kind of, we kind of touched on this with when I asked about kids who aren't entirely sure of their hunger cues, what about say a teen runner, well, it can be any athlete, but a teen athlete who wakes up in the morning and says, yeah, I don't want breakfast. I'm not hungry for, I don't want to eat breakfast. Or a teen athlete whose schedule is really packed and they're going right from class immediately to their practice, which we see so often because their schedules are so packed. Those are two questions again. I love to ask more than one question at once. Anna Mackay (17:26) So think the dietitian's answer is, and again, you chime in here if you've got something to add. Is that we want these kids having breakfast, lunch and dinner and some snacks. That is the way that we are going to ensure without a doubt that they're having an adequate amount of food. And that they're consistently getting it. Because as soon as you skip a meal, you then are going to have to make up for all the nutrients and calories in the next meal. And that is going to be for most teenagers, that's gonna be really hard. It's just gonna be hard. It's near impossible. Their tummies are still, you know, they're just not gonna be able to accommodate that amount, that volume. And if it becomes a habit, it can easily snowball into where then the tummy starts shrinking and then they really can't manage that amount of food. And then you're in the cycle of not being able to fuel adequately. So again, this may be where chatting with a dietitian for a few sessions, if they're really resisting breakfast could be helpful. Maybe sussing out why are they, it purely because they are so overwhelmed with their schedule and they're just a bit disorganized or whatever and it's just really hard in that way. In that scenario, I think you as the parent need to step in. And as they're running out the door, I've thrown, there's a protein bar, a banana and an overnight oats. You'll find it in your bag. And that's, that's completely fine. And a lot of teens will respond well to that and they'll have it and that's great. But if you feel like your teen is skipping it for another reason, then again, that's where I think the dietitian needs to come in. Elizabeth (19:14) One thing I was gonna say about breakfast, if a team athlete doesn't wanna eat breakfast, one thing you could do is, sit down, well, you don't have to sit down with them, but just kind of casually. Right? It's always better. It's a little more casual. What are some things that would work well for you for just an out the door breakfast? Right? Is it if I make you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? We eat that on the way to the bus or in the car on the way to school. And like you said, just grab and go foods, put them in their backpack. I think the more you can get the teens buy in and get their suggestions, the more likely they may be to eat those foods. It's tough. It's tough. And the other thing parents can do is if you notice your teens not having breakfast or they're just not, you know, they're saying, I'm not hungry, I'm not eating it. You might ask them how their practice is going, how they're feeling. Just say, how are you feeling throughout the day? I know you don't feel like eating breakfast. Let's work towards that. In the meantime, if you can pay attention just to how you feel, whether or not you're able to focus in class, what's your energy level like? So a parent could ask those questions if they feel like their teen would be receptive to it. Then onto my second question. My second part two of that two part question. What about a kid who doesn't have time in between class, the end of class and changing into their practice clothes and getting to practice? Anna Mackay (20:51) So being short on time just means you have to be prepared, right? There has to be, we are lucky that there are about eight zillion different bars on the market. Most of them are fine. wouldn't even, as a dietitian, I wouldn't even be like, well, this one's better than that one. I think you just need to find one you like. Elizabeth (21:02) Yes. And it has enough carbs in it. Anna Mackay (21:14) Fair point. So some of them are a little silly and they've, you know, they're very diety, maybe stay away from those ones, but find one you like, find one that your stomach agrees with, that's easy for you to digest and chuck that down. Right. You know, it's, it's easy to buy them in cases too. And they're, they are, they really do serve a purpose. Anna Mackay (21:41) Don't let anyone try and tell you that they're rubbish or it's junk food, because it's not. really serve a practical purpose, I think. Elizabeth (21:49) Agree. I agree. think they, like many foods, get a bad rap and diet culture or wellness culture kind of told us all that we shouldn't be having those bars. Yes, if someone's eating it instead of having a candy bar when they're really hungry for a candy bar, that's a whole different podcast episode. Anna Mackay (22:08) Yeah, and it's not dinner. Elizabeth (22:09) Right, exactly. It's a snack to get them through. So now my next question is when practice is over, you know, let's say they've got, I don't know, two hours before they are home and have dinner. Anna Mackay (22:22) I think my answer's the same. And what they might find is that the pre-practice, a bar is what feels best on the stomach and gives them enough to get through the practice and then after practice, maybe it's an electrolyte drink and half a peanut butter sandwich. So it would just be a little trial and error. Elizabeth (22:43) Yeah, yeah, I was just going to ask about the sports drinks because they also get, you know, there's a lot of, are they okay for kids to have? Should teens be having, teen athletes be having them? And I think they do, they serve a purpose, right? They can be so helpful in these situations. Anna Mackay (23:00) Water is the priority, but sports drinks with electrolytes are helpful. They just are, especially if you have long practices, 45 minutes or longer, and if you're a heavy sweater or you're working out, and know, it's quite hot here on the East Coast of the US at the moment. yes, it is. Even if you went out running for 35 minutes. You would probably be sweating profusely. A little bit of electrolytes and a drink could be really helpful in that scenario. Elizabeth (23:31) Yeah, yeah, for sure. So. Anna Mackay (23:34) Also, I think those electrolyte drinks, again, there's a zillion on the market now. Don't feel like you have to buy the ones with zero sugar in them. We just from a pure science point of view, and the sugar will be converted immediately to glucose, which will give you energy. We don't need to be scared of that. It'll assist in performance and it'll help you recover. Elizabeth (23:55) Yeah, such a good point. Such an important point. I want to ask one question that I thought of while we were talking. What about sweets and chips and foods like that? Foods like those that often, you know, we hear messages all the time that we want to be avoiding foods like that. Anna Mackay (24:14) They have a place, ice cream, chips, all the things. And look, if you are sprinting out the door and all of a sudden, I mean, we've all been here, my gosh, I forgot to grab the X, Y, O, Z that I was gonna grab, but it's all the way back in that part of the kitchen and I'm really in a rush and the jar of gummy bears is by the door. That is better than nothing, honestly. All these foods have a place. I would probably not recommend if a kid wants ice cream and chocolate covered pretzels for dinner and that's what they're having every night. I mean, that's a bit of a silly example, but you know, those foods definitely have a place and should not be demonized because demonizing them will always make them the forbidden fruit. And then they want them more. it also is just, creates, that goes back to when we were talking right at the beginning about having a flexible, healthy relationship with food. We want that to be with all foods, not just the foods that we think are the most nutritious foods. Elizabeth (25:14) Exactly. Exactly. And as I always say, all those foods like ice cream, for example, it's got fat, carbohydrate, protein, vitamin D, calcium, right? Has nutrients that our bodies need. Yeah. And nutrients that a teen athlete will need. Anna Mackay (25:32) Totally. think about a 16 year old girl or boy who are on the cross country team and they are running miles and miles and miles. Let's say they're already, those sports tend to attract quite lean builds. Two scoops of ice cream for a kid like that is fantastic. That's a great addition to their day in addition to their other meals. Mm-hmm not ever in place of in addition to Elizabeth (26:01) Right. Well, I'm glad we touched on that. What about, I mean, I know what, I think I know what you're gonna, well, of course I know what you're gonna say. What advice do you have for parents to support teen athletes in getting enough on travel days and tournament days, right? I think of volleyball players, one of my younger, my older daughter played travel volleyball for a little, a short time. And wow, those tournament days. mean, yes, yeah. Anna Mackay (26:27) Hours and hours. Yeah, I mean, this is the packing, the planning and packing, right? And so I'll keep this answer short. Two pieces of advice. One is bring more than you think you'll need. And two is stick with those familiar, easily digestible foods. Don't go and try something brand new on a tournament day. I would say, yeah, stick with what you know. Elizabeth (26:40) Yes, great. And I would add that I want to add sometimes on social media, you'll see posts of the bento style lunch boxes, and people packing those that's not going to hold enough food for a teen athlete. It's not doesn't they don't hold enough for a teen. And they're definitely not going to hold enough for a teen athlete. And so you may need to pack two bento boxes or lunchbox with quite a few sides. So I think, yeah, that that to me is a very important piece of information because people do use those a lot, it seems, which is fine. There just has to be something added to them. Added to what's in the Bento style lunchbox. So again, it sounds like so much of this is planning and preparation. modeling by the parents. Anna Mackay (27:48) Yeah. Elizabeth (27:51) Encouraging the kids to really tune in to what they need, what their bodies, the signals that their bodies are telling them, as opposed to using external cues like watches and other kind of tracking devices. Anna Mackay (28:04) and TikTok. Elizabeth (28:05) Right, and TikTok, yes. my gosh, did I say that already? Yes, I did. The influence of the social media messages that these kids see. And YouTube, too, is a place that teens get a lot, teen athletes and teens get a lot of information that's harmful. Yeah. And so the parents, the teens, and the coaches are all up against that, for sure. So speaking of negative or harmful messages that kids, that teen athletes are seeing, what are some red flags that a teen may not be getting enough to eat to support their growth and activity levels? And even if it's framed as they're doing something, even if it's framed as healthy or performance-based. Anna Mackay (28:47) Well, so there's going to be some sort of symptoms. And then I'll also mention that someone can be under fueled and still gain weight or look sort of quote unquote normal. So I'll mention sort of some symptoms. So it'd be fatigue, physical weakness, decreased performance in their sport. Being moody, irritable, for girls would be a delayed or absent menstrual cycle, brittle nails, hair loss, poor concentration, slipping in school or academic slipping, socially withdrawing or showing a lack of interest in activities, being more susceptible to injury or illness, and Yeah, okay, so sure, noticeable weight loss, certainly, but that's not always going to be a sign, it just can be. So I think that's a really important point to be aware that if all some of those other symptoms are present, but you're kind of going, but you know, they're not, they don't look different. I would still be alarmed. Elizabeth (29:53) Right, right. What's one thing that you wish every teen athlete and their parents and coaches understood about fueling teen athletes? Anna Mackay (30:03) When it comes to food, something is always, always better than nothing. Skipping out on a snack or worse, skipping an entire meal, it's going to sabotage your performance every single time. then, yeah, so food should come first. So, and also I'll just add that supplements, I think they take up like an entire supermarket aisle now. It is wild to me how much is on those shelves and much of it, if not all of it, the FDA doesn't regulate most of it. So it can be, there can literally be anything in these containers from ingredients that are listed, but they're not actually those ingredients. So I think be really, really, really wary of supplements, know, the creatines and the muscle builders and all that kind of stuff. It could be harmful ingredients in there. Elizabeth (30:59) Definitely. And kids, again, this stuff, they see it all over social media. All over. Anna Mackay (31:05) They do. another sign to be, think, to be aware of should be a red flag would be unusual stomach upset, cramping, you know, out of the ordinary diarrhea, know, gastro stuff that's kind of come out of out of the blue. Elizabeth (31:22) So last question as we wrap up here. And this kind of is an add-on to what we were talking about just a few minutes ago, where can parents and teens find supportive non-diet information on fueling teen athletes? Anna Mackay (31:40) So I will you can I would love to hear what you would recommend. I have to bashing social media. I have to say there are some very good social media accounts. There are. So there is a woman who is the assistant director for athletics at Purdue. And she, so she's a dietitian and she's been there for a long time and her social media account is really good, but it's very directed towards quite elite athletes. So just, I'll just put that out there, but her account's great. It's very, it's not diety and it's very, I think it's, it's bang on. This podcast? Elizabeth (32:22) They can listen to that. Anna Mackay (32:23) Side Up Nutrition, yeah. And you can look in in the Sunny Side Up library. There's all sorts of stuff in there at the website. And then I would say if you're the parent of a teen athlete and you've got lots of questions and you're finding social media, not really answering the questions. Elizabeth (32:41) Mm-hmm. Anna Mackay (32:42) Make an appointment with a dietitian. You've literally got nothing to lose and you might find that it a few sessions or just getting some more information is really helpful. Elizabeth (32:52) Yes, yes. And I think it's important to, for parents to, to remember to work with a non-diet weight inclusive registered dietitian. and if you're listening to this and you would like names of, of dietitians who could see your teen athlete, feel free to send us an email at hello@sunnysideupnutrition.com. And we can give you the names of some people. I know Anna has someone on her in her practice, actually, who worked for UNC University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, athletic department for many years. And so she's very, very, yeah, she's very knowledgeable. And I don't have a specific recommendation. There used to be a really wonderful, well you could still look at her social, look through her social media, the soccer nutritionist I think she was called. Anna Mackay (33:51) I know who you're talking about. can't think of the name off the top of my head, but I know who you're referring to. Elizabeth (33:56) Yes, I really liked her advice. I think also if a parent is or if a teen or a parent's looking for information, I do think any non-diet social media, most of it can be helpful, right? Because teens need to be, teen athletes need to be eating enough. Anything else? Any others that you can think of that you would recommend? Any books? Opal? Was it Opal podcast? I'll have to look that one up. Anna Mackay (34:27) So that treatment center out on the West Coast, they, don't know if they're still doing the podcast, but that's an excellent. Elizabeth (34:35) They have some great episodes. Anna Mackay (34:37) Yeah, in Australia, Shane Jeffries up in Brisbane, does performance nutrition. He's a great dietitian, runs a practice in Brisbane. And then there is also a great, and I'm sure the US has this too, but I'm trying to think of, it's called Oz Dances. It's AUS Dances. And this is a woman who, she is not a dietitian, but she, has worked with ballerinas for a really long time. And she does social, she has a social media site that talks a lot about warning signs for ballerinas, specifically for dancers. And her site has information for, that can then direct people, you know, they need a dietitian or another person in the dance world in Australia. Elizabeth (35:20) And we interviewed somebody who is a ballerina and dietitian. And all of a sudden, I'm embarrassed to say I cannot remember her name, but we will link. Anna Mackay (35:32) Is she in New York? Elizabeth (35:33) Yes. Yes. So we'll link to her podcast episode. And then there's Leslie Schilling, who's a dietitian who does a lot of sports nutrition and does sports nutrition training for dietitians. And she's wonderful. So we'll link to all these, all these resources in the show notes. All right, Anna, this has been awesome. Anna Mackay (35:51) This has been so fun. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit snutrition.substack.com [https://snutrition.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Episode 107: What's My Role, Empowering Parents in Feeding Their Kids

We’re back with our latest episode of the Sunny Side Up Nutrition Podcast. In this week’s episode of the podcast Anna and I dive into the roles parents don’t need to take on (like controlling weight or forcing kids to clean their plates) and the roles that necessary for raising confident eaters. We talk about Ellyn Satter’s Division of Responsibility, how to adapt it with responsive feeding, and our own Sunny Side Up feeding framework that helps parents understand and succeed in their roles in the feeding relationship. What’s in the episode * Parents are bombarded with messages about controlling their child's eating. * It's not a parent's job to control a child's weight or eating habits. * The Division of Responsibility in Feeding outlines clear roles for parents and children. * Responsive feeding tailors the feeding approach to each child's needs. * Creating a positive mealtime environment is crucial for healthy eating. * Parents should focus on their own stress levels to improve feeding dynamics. * Modeling healthy eating behaviors is essential for children. * There is no one-size-fits-all approach to feeding children. * Parents should avoid the pitfalls of being too permissive or too restrictive. * The Sunny Side Up framework helps simplify feeding responsibilities for parents. Relevant links * Virginia Sole-Smith: The Eating Instinct and Burnt Toast Newsletter * Picky Eating article by VSS * Ellyn Satter Institute: Division of Responsibility in Feeding * Learn more about our membership: Take the Frenzy Out of Feeding * Pinney Davenport Nutrition Transcript This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit snutrition.substack.com [https://snutrition.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]

Podcast Ep. 106 BE REAL's Let's Eat Nutrition Curriculum with Denise Hamburger and Selena Salfen

Greetings! You’re likely in the thick of it with back-to-school activities. But back-to-school isn’t just about packing lunches and adjusting to new schedules. It’s also a time when kids begin to hear harmful messages about food and bodies. In this episode of Sunny Side Up Nutrition Podcast, we’re joined by Denise Hamburger, JD, founder and executive director of BE REAL USA [https://berealusa.org/lets-eat/], and Selena Salfen, MPH, RD, a public health dietitian working to shift systems toward size-inclusive, weight-neutral models of care. Together, they share insights on BE REAL’s [https://berealusa.org/lets-eat/]Let’s Eat [https://berealusa.org/lets-eat/] curriculum [https://berealusa.org/lets-eat/], a nutrition program for middle and high school students that focuses on tuned-in eating teaching students to consider their body cues, nutritional needs, food preferences, and past eating experiences. The lessons are designed to be inclusive across cultures, neurodiverse learners, and varying economic backgrounds. Click here to visit BE REAL USA, Let’s Eat [https://berealusa.org/lets-eat/] Key Takeaways * Let's Eat is a new curriculum aimed at teaching nutrition without the influence of diet culture. * The curriculum is free and accessible to all students and educators [https://berealresources.org/lets-eat-registration/]. * Let's Eat encourages students to trust their bodies and make informed food choices. * The curriculum includes cultural sensitivity and celebrates diverse food practices. * A panel of 42 experts contributed to the development of Let's Eat. * Educators can access Let's Eat through professional development training. * BE REAL USA has ambassadors who are trained to deliver th.e curriculum * Denise and Selena chat about their favorite foods. Links to Resources Mentioned: * BE REAL’s Let’s Eat [https://berealusa.org/lets-eat/] Middle and High School Nutrition Curriculum * BE REAL’s [https://berealusa.org/be-reals-bodykind-high-school-curriculum/]Body Kind [https://berealusa.org/be-reals-bodykind-high-school-curriculum/] High School Body Image Curriculum * BE REAL’s Ambassador Program [https://berealusa.org/ambassador-program/] * BE REAL’s [https://berealusa.org/college-bodykind/]Body Kind [https://berealusa.org/college-bodykind/] Peer-Led College Body Confidence Seminar * National Alliance for Eating Disorders [https://www.allianceforeatingdisorders.com/] * Lutz, Alexander & Associates Nutrition Therapy [https://lutzandalexander.com/] * Pinney Davenport Nutrition, PLLC [https://www.pinneydavenportnutrition.com/] More about Denise and Selena Denise Hamburger, JD Denise Hamburger, JD, is the founder and executive director of BE REAL USA, a nonprofit that imagines a world where every child can grow up with a healthy relationship to food and their body. In 2016, Denise created a professional development workshop for teachers called Body Confident Schools and has delivered this training to over 10,000 educators around the world. With over 250 conference, keynote, and school presentations, Denise has presented at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health to the National Association of School Psychologists; at the Center for Disease Control to their Healthy Schools Division; at the United States Department of Agriculture to their Food and Nutrition Services Group; and to Amazon’s Body Positive Peers Employee Resource Group. Denise co-developed Be Real’s BodyKind high school, body image curriculum with a team of international body image academics, psychologists and teachers. BodyKind is the first body image curriculum developed for all students. It includes the body image experiences of people of different races, ethnicities, sexualities, gender identities, physical and mental abilities, and body sizes. BodyKind was tested in an 1150-student Randomized Control Trial in Ireland in 2024, and the program has proven to increase [https://authors.elsevier.com/sd/article/S1740-1445(25)00056-7] to student Body Appreciation, Self-Compassion and Body Appreciation. These aspects are associated with better self-esteem and better mental health. In 2025, Denise--with Ramsey County, MN Public Health--co-developed and launched a weight-neutral nutrition curriculum called Be Real’s Let’s Eat for middle school and high school students. Let’s Eat focuses on Tuned-in Eating, which teaches students to integrate their own body cues, day’s nutritional needs, food preferences and eating experiences into their eating patterns. Let’s Eat lessons are relevant across cultures, neurodiversity, and economic status. Denise has a Juris Doctor degree from the University of Michigan Law School and was an environmental attorney in her first career. She co-wrote the legal treatise Pollution in the United Kingdom. Denise is an Anti-Bias, Antiracist Certified curriculum writer. She has spent the last 25 years involved in education nonprofits, including Chicago’s After School Matters. Instagram: @berealusa Website: www.berealusa.org [http://www.berealusa.org] Selena Salfen, MPH, RD Selena Salfen, MPH, RD (she/her) works on chronic disease prevention in local public health, focusing on sustainable policy, systems and environmental change. Much of her work involves transitioning public health and healthcare systems from weight-focused to size inclusive, weight neutral models of practice. She also presents to educators and school-based health clinics on why weight neutral, eating disorder-aware education is vital to improving and protecting student health. Transcript Elizabeth: Welcome to Sunny Side Up Nutrition, a podcast created by three moms striving to bring you evidence-based information to help support you and the children in your life. Your hosts are Anna Lutz and me, Elizabeth Davenport, both registered dietitians, and Anna McKay, a dietitian-to-be and certified personal trainer. Anna Lutz co-owns Lutz Alexander and Associates Nutrition Therapy in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I co-own Pinney Davenport Nutrition in the D.C. metro area. And Anna McKay is in the process of completing her dietetic internship. Just a note that this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. Thanks for being here. In this episode, we're joined by two of the co-creators of the Be Real Let’s Eat curriculum: Denise Hamburger and Selena Salfen. Elizabeth: Denise Hamburger, JD, is the founder and executive director of Be Real USA, a nonprofit that imagines a world where every child can grow up with a healthy relationship to food and their body. In 2025, Denise—with Ramsey County, Minnesota Public Health—co-developed and launched a weight-neutral curriculum called Be Real’s Let’s Eat for middle school and high school students. Elizabeth: Selena Salfen, MPH, RD (she/her), is a registered dietitian in public health. Much of her work involves transitioning public health and healthcare systems from weight-focused to size-inclusive, weight-neutral models of practice. Denise and Selena are two of the many experts who came together to create the curriculum. It focuses on Tuned-in Eating, which teaches students to integrate their own body cues, nutritional needs, food preferences, and eating experiences into their eating patterns. Lessons are relevant across cultures, neurodiversity, and economic status. Anna: Denise and Selena, we are so happy you're here. Welcome. Multiple speakers: Great to be here. Thank you, thank you. Anna: Let's jump in. To start us off, can you each tell us a bit about yourself and the work you do? Denise: Thank you. I guess I'll start. I'm Denise Hamburger. I'm the founder and executive director of Be Real USA, a nonprofit that focuses on providing the highest quality resources on body image and eating disorder prevention for schools. I've been talking to educators and parents for almost ten years now about how to create body-confident environments in schools and in homes. We have a presentation I've been giving for ten years called Body Confident Schools, which helps the adults in young people’s lives develop language and understanding that supports raising kids with body confidence. This language and understanding is very different from what we get in diet culture. In the last five years, Be Real added a new piece to its mission: curriculum development. Teachers had been asking us for better resources on body image and nutrition, and we felt compelled to develop them ourselves. Our high school body image curriculum, BodyKind, was developed by a team of academics and tested in schools. We’ve tested it three times, and we’ve had four published papers on its feasibility, accessibility, and effectiveness. We’re starting that same kind of testing now with our new curriculum, Let’s Eat. We also have 150 ambassadors across the country who present our workshops and share our curriculum. Anna: Wow. We certainly need new curricula, so we’re so glad you’re doing this work and that you’re in this space. Elizabeth: I want to hear more about the ambassadors, but we’ll leave that for later. Selena: I’m Selena Salfen. I’m a registered dietitian, but I work in public health, so I don’t see clients one-on-one. I focus more on macro-level policy, systems, and environmental change. I work on a chronic disease prevention grant, where we support schools in areas like food access, nutrition, and mental health. That’s how I ended up working on Let’s Eat. I’m also very committed to bringing size-inclusive, weight-neutral work into public health and undoing some of the harm done since the 1990s, when public health began to hyper-focus on weight, weight control, and BMI. I’ve done a lot of work with WIC, integrating weight-inclusive practices, and expanded that work into other community-based health programs. I’m also a parent to a child with sensory needs around food, which shapes my perspective. And I’m a Be Real ambassador—that’s how Denise and I met. Anna: That’s wonderful. I really appreciate the work you’re doing. I imagine it sometimes feels like swimming upstream in public health. Selena: You know what? It’s been better than I expected—and actually really exciting. Elizabeth: That’s great to hear. Anna: We’re recording this episode just as school is starting across the country, and we’re excited to talk about this new curriculum. Denise, can you tell us more about Let’s Eat and what inspired you to create it? Denise: Sure. I mentioned earlier that I’ve been speaking with teachers for the last ten years. They’d often ask me what curriculum they should be using—specifically one that doesn’t harm students’ body image. We know from research that what’s typically being taught reflects diet culture and can be harmful. For example, a few studies have asked eating disorder patients what triggered their eating disorder, and 14% in both studies mentioned their “healthy eating curriculum” in school. So at Be Real, we decided to develop a curriculum that focuses on body cues and interoceptive awareness—helping students learn to eat based on what their bodies are telling them. Selena was reviewing our BodyKind curriculum when we started talking, and she mentioned she was looking for a weight-neutral curriculum for Minneapolis. A lightbulb went off, and we decided to create one together. It’s been an amazing collaboration. I come from one angle, Selena comes from another, and we always land in the same place. I focus on making sure lessons are engaging and accessible, while Selena makes sure they reflect the needs of neurodiverse kids, immigrant kids, and food-insecure kids. The result is a free, two-day curriculum for both middle and high school students. It aligns with the HECAT standards, comes in a 42-page toolkit with lesson plans, slides, and worksheets, and includes required professional development for teachers so they can shift away from diet culture before teaching it. We were able to create this thanks to funders like the National Alliance for Eating Disorders, Ramsey County Public Health, and the Minnesota Department of Health. Anna: Wow. That’s fabulous. We’re so excited that Let’s Eat exists. And I love that it’s a two-day lesson plan—not something overwhelming. Teachers often worry about how curricula fit with state standards, but as you said, this aligns well. Elizabeth: Selena, what concerns do you have about how nutrition is typically taught to children? Selena: First, I want to acknowledge that educators who teach “good and bad” foods mean well. They’ve been enlisted in what’s been called the “war on obesity” since the 2000s. Good people want children to avoid chronic disease, but they’ve been told the way to do this is through weight control, calorie tracking, and restrictive eating. We now know this approach is harmful, not evidence-based, and doesn’t actually make kids physically or mentally healthier—or smaller. Many existing nutrition education tools encourage weight or body fat measurements, food logs, calorie counting, or labeling foods as good/bad. This can trigger disordered eating, poor body image, and food obsession. With Let’s Eat, we focus instead on helping students learn about food in a way that builds trust in their bodies and avoids shame, guilt, or fear. Elizabeth: Denise, how does Let’s Eat differ from other nutrition curricula? Denise: Great question. First, we don’t use body size as a proxy for health. Instead, we empower students to be the experts on their own eating. We avoid shame-based language, rules, or fear around food. Instead, we use guidelines that leave room for nuance. We also encourage reflection on past eating experiences—like noticing how your body felt after eating—and using that information for the future. Another big difference is the diversity of input. Thanks to Selena, we had 42 experts review the curriculum, including dietitians, doctors, teachers, researchers, body image experts, and students. We’re proud of how inclusive it is, and how it focuses on empowerment, curiosity, and calmness around food. Anna: I really enjoyed lending a little part to the project. What I love most is how you’ve taken weight out of it. Weight is woven through so much of nutrition curricula, but kids are supposed to be gaining weight. Their bodies are supposed to be changing. Let’s Eat acknowledges this and empowers students to tune in and trust that they are the experts of their own bodies. Denise: Exactly. What we teach is Tuned-in Eating. It’s about helping students feel capable and confident when it comes to food. We encourage them to be curious about past eating experiences—what worked and what didn’t—and use that to guide future choices. Instead of rules, we provide guidelines. Rules can encourage black-and-white thinking, but guidelines leave room for flexibility. Selena: One big difference is how we approach foods that students are often taught to fear. For example, ultra-processed foods or sugar. Educators often feel pressure to talk about these, but fear-based teaching isn’t helpful. Instead, we explain concepts like whole vs. refined grains in a way that avoids shame. If you prefer white rice, you can pair it with protein, fat, and fiber to balance the meal. We also celebrate cultural foods like rice and tortillas, which are often unfairly stigmatized. We’re also committed to making Let’s Eat neurodivergent-friendly and trauma-informed. Not every student can rely on hunger cues, and that’s okay. Instead of insisting on “no distractions at meals,” we encourage students to experiment with what works for them—whether that includes a tablet or not. We also acknowledge food access and insecurity. Not all students have choices, so we avoid presenting nutrition in a way that assumes unlimited access. I’m also proud that we brought in such diverse perspectives. Reviewers included Dr. Whitney Trotter and Angela Goens, co-founders of the BIPOC Eating Disorder Conference, as well as Anna (you!) and many others. Anna: It really shows. The diversity of expertise and voices makes Let’s Eat so much stronger. Creating a curriculum like this must have been a challenge. It’s so much easier to be black and white—this is good, this is bad. But you’ve created something inclusive and nuanced. Denise: Yes, that was one of the challenges. We had to decide how much detail was actually helpful. Thanks to Selena, we avoided going too far down rabbit holes and instead kept lessons high-level and practical. We focus on the basics—carbohydrates, fats, protein—with a nod to vitamins, minerals, and fiber. Just enough to help students fuel their day without overwhelming them. Selena: And credit goes to Allie Latvala, who did a beautiful job writing for the age range. It’s a big responsibility to protect young people, and while no curriculum will be perfect, we’ve done our best to make it safe and inclusive. Selena: Yes, and we’ll continue to make adjustments as we receive feedback. We listened to students and teachers during evaluation, and we’ll keep listening if improvements are needed. Anna: That’s so important. What did students and teachers say during the pilot? Denise: We tested it with 250 students. Their feedback was invaluable—everything from whether the images felt too young or too old, to what activities were engaging. One teacher, Sarah, had her students list reasons we eat, beyond hunger. They filled the board with 100 reasons—celebrations, traditions, comfort, fun. We added that activity to the curriculum, because it gets students thinking about eating as a multi-dimensional experience, not just fuel. Anna: I love that. So many nutrition classes reduce eating to just nutrients or body size. Asking students to reflect on the many reasons we eat helps them appreciate the full picture. Elizabeth: Denise, for parents and educators who want to bring Let’s Eat into schools, how can they access it? Denise: There are two main ways. First, it’s free. At conferences, we hand out postcards with QR codes. Scanning the code takes you to our professional development training. After completing the training and a short test, teachers gain access to the full toolkit, slides, and worksheets. Second, educators can become Be Real Ambassadors. Ambassadors get access to our presentations and resources, and they bring them into their communities. Right now, we have about 150 ambassadors around the world—teachers, dietitians, public health educators, and more. We provide them with templates, letters, agendas, slides, and other materials so they can succeed in sharing this work locally. Anna: That’s incredible. You’re not only creating a curriculum—you’re creating a movement. Anna: What challenges did you face in creating a curriculum that’s both helpful and impactful without causing harm? Selena: It was definitely tricky. We could have created a “masterpiece” that said exactly what we wanted, but it might not have been usable in schools. Teachers often have to align with CDC HECAT standards. We worked hard to meet most of the knowledge expectations, but we were intentional about skipping some. For example, one standard asks students to “analyze healthy and risky approaches to weight management.” We didn’t include that, because it would reinforce harmful weight-focused thinking. Another standard says to “avoid sugary drinks.” Instead, we reframed it around hydration—water, milk, and other options—while acknowledging that sugary drinks exist without making them forbidden. Denise: Teachers don’t expect every curriculum to meet every single standard, but we wanted to cover most. And it was important that Let’s Eat still teach the core of nutrition—like macronutrients and hydration—just in a less fear-based way. Selena: Exactly. We frame carbohydrates as “short energy” and protein and fat as “long energy.” It helps students contextualize food in ways that feel supportive, not restrictive. Anna: That’s such a refreshing approach. All right, let’s move into our last question. We love to ask our guests: what’s one of your favorite foods right now? It doesn’t have to be forever, just what you’re enjoying at the moment and why. Denise: I just made a summer fruit buttermilk cake with Michigan cherries, blackberries, peaches, and blueberries. We had four cups of fruit in it. My kids were visiting, and we finished the whole cake in under an hour. It was so good I’ve been waking up thinking about when I can make it again. Anna: That sounds amazing. And you may not know this, but Elizabeth used to be a professional baker. Denise: Oh, then I’ll have to send you the recipe! Elizabeth: Please do. Selena, what about you? Selena: I had to think about this. I love all foods, so nothing stood out at first. But then I realized I’ve been cooking a lot from the cookbook Curry Every Day by Atul Kochhar. It’s full of curries from around the world. I know it’s summer, but I still love making them. Elizabeth: That sounds wonderful. I’m going to have to check that out. Anna: Thank you both so much for joining us and for sharing your work. Let’s Eat is such an important resource, and we’ll link everything in the show notes so parents and teachers can access the training and curriculum. Denise: Thank you—it was a pleasure. Selena: Thank you so much. Anna: And thank you to our listeners. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review us in your podcast app. Just scroll down to the stars in Sunny Side Up Nutrition Podcast and leave a review. We’d also love for you to join our 12-module membership, Take the Frenzy Out of Feeding. Visit our website and look for the Membership tab to join today. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit snutrition.substack.com [https://snutrition.substack.com?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_1]