Interesting People: Author and Illustrator Ben Lueders
I’m very excited to introduce my friend, author and illustrator Ben Lueders on a brand-new podcast from the As Told By C.S. Beaty empire.
There are way more interesting people coming who you’re not going to want to miss. Subscribe to make sure you don’t miss them!
(00:00:01):
Everyone has a story to tell.
(00:00:03):
They’re just looking for someone who wants to hear it.
(00:00:06):
We assume no one wants to listen,
(00:00:08):
and because we already know our own story so well,
(00:00:11):
it gets a little boring to our own ears.
(00:00:14):
We start to believe that our life experiences are pretty much the same as everyone
(00:00:17):
else’s,
(00:00:18):
that our stories aren’t worth sharing,
(00:00:20):
that they’re not interesting.
(00:00:23):
But they are, and it’s my goal to prove it to you.
(00:00:26):
My name is Chris Beaty, and these are Interesting People.
(00:00:30):
Today’s guest is the guy who designed my book,
(00:00:33):
was in a band with me,
(00:00:35):
and sold me this podcast gear.
(00:00:37):
Author and artist, Ben Looters.
(00:00:42):
I don’t.
(00:00:42):
I bought this stuff from you and it took us two hours to do it and we didn’t make
(00:00:46):
it any farther.
(00:00:47):
And that was the story of the worst podcast purchase I’ve ever made.
(00:00:53):
Is this on?
(00:00:53):
Are you recording right now?
(00:00:54):
I am.
(00:00:55):
I mean, this may not make it to the end.
(00:00:56):
I got this magic audacity feature where for the next seven hours you can
(00:01:00):
individually cut certain things and change it and delete it.
(00:01:04):
It takes a really long time and it doesn’t turn out very well, but it’s awesome.
(00:01:09):
Oh man, I want to make sure I’m not like way over here like Bob.
(00:01:12):
Well, just like, should we put you in a rocking chair?
(00:01:14):
Because that’s how he did it.
(00:01:15):
Oh dude, that does sound good.
(00:01:17):
Yeah, he loved it.
(00:01:18):
When was the time you felt like a loser?
(00:01:21):
I didn’t
(00:01:39):
But I got a lot of matted fur cut out of my dog for that.
(00:01:43):
Well, hey, any time, bro.
(00:01:46):
Is that what it takes?
(00:01:47):
That’s the kind of show this is, just so you know.
(00:01:50):
It’s also the show that I’m getting really hot in this sweatshirt, so I’m going to take it off.
(00:01:54):
Oh, man.
(00:01:54):
I feel like this is why it needs to be a video podcast.
(00:01:57):
It is.
(00:01:57):
Every five minutes, Chris takes off another piece of clothing.
(00:02:01):
I reveal another tattoo.
(00:02:04):
Is that the only tattoo you... No, I got many.
(00:02:09):
You actually?
(00:02:09):
Yeah, you want me to do a naked podcast?
(00:02:12):
Is this going to be like the strip poker version of podcasts?
(00:02:15):
The thing about you,
(00:02:16):
Chris,
(00:02:17):
is like,
(00:02:17):
I think I know you really well,
(00:02:19):
but I don’t know you well enough to know sometimes when you’re joking and when
(00:02:23):
you’re not.
(00:02:24):
I never tell a lie.
(00:02:26):
That’s true.
(00:02:27):
I’m usually very odd.
(00:02:28):
I usually just try to frame things that makes you wonder if I’m telling the truth.
(00:02:31):
I think you say things that I hope you’re lying.
(00:02:34):
Yeah, they’re almost always true.
(00:02:36):
Yes, I have additional tattoos.
(00:02:39):
Would you like to see them?
(00:02:40):
Here’s one.
(00:02:41):
Oh, sure.
(00:02:41):
Here’s this one.
(00:02:42):
You should recognize this one.
(00:02:44):
Oh, that’s beautiful.
(00:02:46):
That’s the asterisk that I designed on the cover of your book.
(00:02:50):
I already told you that one’s below the belt.
(00:02:52):
No,
(00:02:52):
this is the tattoo from my wedding reception that you were at that apparently you
(00:02:57):
didn’t pay very good attention to.
(00:02:59):
Not enough to get it tattooed.
(00:03:01):
I have the arbitrary Greek tattoo that says,
(00:03:05):
hey,
(00:03:05):
this isn’t Greek and I don’t know what it means,
(00:03:07):
but it’s not Chinese,
(00:03:08):
so it’s trendier.
(00:03:10):
And then I have on my back, I have That one’s harder to do.
(00:03:14):
I can come over there and undress you a little bit.
(00:03:17):
It’s going to be hard to get on this mic here.
(00:03:20):
That one’s got cocaine leaves on it.
(00:03:24):
That’s the seal of where my kids were born.
(00:03:26):
And literally the outskirt of it, this is another, is he telling the truth?
(00:03:29):
It’s cocaine leaves.
(00:03:31):
Is it actually?
(00:03:31):
Yeah, coca leaves, not cocaine.
(00:03:33):
Oh, it’s because of Coca-Cola.
(00:03:35):
They’re big fans of Coca-Cola and Tuluwa.
(00:03:38):
Yeah, Tuluwa.
(00:03:39):
Do they make you get that when you adopt someone from there?
(00:03:42):
It’s part of the process.
(00:03:43):
It’s paperwork.
(00:03:44):
That’s why it takes so long.
(00:03:45):
Stand in line for your tattoo.
(00:03:47):
Yeah.
(00:03:47):
Yeah everyone’s got a good tattoo we adopted three kids so all of them have the matching tattoo
(00:03:52):
Make sure you’re a bad parent by getting a tattoo right away.
(00:03:57):
Literally,
(00:03:57):
I waited to get this tattoo until after the kids were adopted because I had this,
(00:04:01):
we were watching it,
(00:04:02):
my kids were adopted from Columbia,
(00:04:03):
so we had watched a lot of Narcos before we went,
(00:04:06):
which is all about- Is that required viewing?
(00:04:08):
Yeah, that’s another part of the problem.
(00:04:10):
That’s also why it takes so long because there’s a lot of seasons to get through.
(00:04:12):
And I literally thought through my head,
(00:04:14):
because you know they have gang tattoos and I’ve always heard people,
(00:04:17):
maybe not always,
(00:04:17):
I’ve heard that people will get gang tattoos and they’ll be like,
(00:04:21):
you don’t have a gang tattoo then they get like I don’t know what kind of show this
(00:04:24):
they get their ass kicked I don’t know what my level of if I’m gonna do the e or
(00:04:27):
not on this podcast we didn’t swear with Bob I think oh I’ve heard these stories
(00:04:32):
they like get their ass kicked for having like fake gang tattoos by real gang
(00:04:35):
members I don’t know if that’s an urban legend but like so my first thought was I’m
(00:04:39):
gonna get this tattoo of where my kids are from and find out that that’s some
(00:04:43):
Colombian drug cartel logo and like
(00:04:47):
Either that or it’s going to save your life.
(00:04:50):
Probably.
(00:04:51):
They’re going to be coming at you and you flash your tattoo.
(00:04:55):
And they’re going to be like, oh, he’s one of us.
(00:04:57):
El gringo.
(00:04:58):
It’s like the thing that saves you.
(00:04:59):
It’s like, yeah, that would be really good.
(00:05:01):
I just knew that I was going to be in a pool with my kids that I couldn’t speak to.
(00:05:04):
And they’re either going to offer me cocaine or I don’t know.
(00:05:09):
I’ve seen a lot of narcos and they never repeat a murder twice.
(00:05:12):
So I don’t know what they would come up with.
(00:05:15):
Oh, man.
(00:05:16):
So this is what podcasting is like, huh?
(00:05:18):
I guess so.
(00:05:18):
It kind of feels like just talking.
(00:05:20):
So far, it’s been very visual.
(00:05:22):
I do think this,
(00:05:23):
I think if you’re going to keep going in this way,
(00:05:25):
where you’re taking off layers of clothes,
(00:05:27):
you’re showing tattoos,
(00:05:30):
giving people questionable drinks,
(00:05:33):
this is something people need to see.
(00:05:34):
Well,
(00:05:34):
so far,
(00:05:35):
the only hookup I have with podcast equipment is you,
(00:05:38):
and you’ve proven yourself to not be a very good source.
(00:05:41):
Hey, I told you to get the right cables.
(00:05:44):
You got them.
(00:05:44):
You made it work.
(00:05:45):
Yeah, and
(00:05:46):
Those didn’t set you back too far, did they?
(00:05:48):
Yeah, those Amazon Basics $7 a cable really did the trick after two hours of troubleshooting.
(00:05:55):
All right, Ben Looters.
(00:05:57):
What makes you interesting?
(00:05:58):
Oh, man.
(00:06:00):
What makes me... That’s the first question?
(00:06:02):
No, the first question was, when did you feel like a loser?
(00:06:04):
And you already did that.
(00:06:04):
Oh, that’s true.
(00:06:05):
And the second question was, do you want to see all my tattoos?
(00:06:07):
That’s true.
(00:06:08):
We’re like halfway through the show.
(00:06:10):
We’re five minutes.
(00:06:11):
This is a seven-minute podcast.
(00:06:12):
Yeah.
(00:06:13):
We’re at the end where you reveal why I’m not, why I’m interesting.
(00:06:17):
The trick to editing this is you do everything in like reverse chronological order.
(00:06:21):
Oh man, what makes me interesting?
(00:06:24):
I mean, I think I’m like moderately interesting.
(00:06:29):
I think I have like,
(00:06:30):
when I talk to other people,
(00:06:32):
like I do feel like I have a pretty interesting job and like my origin story is
(00:06:38):
somewhat unique.
(00:06:39):
So I don’t know, I think I’m somewhat interesting.
(00:06:42):
Do you think I’m interesting, Chris?
(00:06:43):
I feel it’s a weird thing to be asked, like, what makes me interesting.
(00:06:46):
It feels like I have to,
(00:06:47):
like,
(00:06:48):
defend myself or do,
(00:06:49):
like,
(00:06:49):
the Midwestern thing where I’m like,
(00:06:51):
no,
(00:06:51):
I’m not interested.
(00:06:52):
Yeah, where you’re so modest that you just, you have to say I’m a very bland personality.
(00:06:56):
Yeah, exactly.
(00:06:58):
Because I think you’re very bland,
(00:07:00):
so I just don’t want to get into a conversation with you about your boring life.
(00:07:03):
Oh, man.
(00:07:04):
Well, no, I think you’re interesting, but I also think that, like,
(00:07:07):
I think that everyone’s interesting, they just don’t necessarily know it.
(00:07:10):
Oh, so I’m not special, is that what you’re saying?
(00:07:12):
No,
(00:07:12):
I’m saying I’m trying to decide whether or not you are,
(00:07:15):
and we’re going to see how this goes.
(00:07:17):
I will say this,
(00:07:18):
yes,
(00:07:18):
I do think you’re interesting,
(00:07:19):
but I also wanted to start,
(00:07:20):
other than the fact that you’re the only person I knew that had podcasting
(00:07:23):
equipment I could buy.
(00:07:23):
Other than that, I did want to, yeah, that part I was not aware of when I made this choice.
(00:07:30):
I did want to start with you because you were the person that I always feel like I
(00:07:34):
never get to say everything I want to say in a conversation.
(00:07:39):
So what I mean by that is there’s certain people who are like,
(00:07:42):
I think I’ll try to think three questions ahead because they’re so uninteresting
(00:07:47):
and be like,
(00:07:48):
oh man,
(00:07:49):
I’m stuck with this person for another 45 minutes.
(00:07:50):
Okay,
(00:07:51):
what are the three conversation starters that I kind of think might get them to do
(00:07:54):
something?
(00:07:55):
With you, it’s the opposite.
(00:07:56):
I come up with,
(00:07:57):
as you’re talking,
(00:07:58):
I think of three different routes we can go on that conversation.
(00:08:02):
Want to see my tattoo?
(00:08:18):
It’s really just Chris looking for an opportunity to show me his tattoos.
(00:08:21):
That’s what this whole podcast is about.
(00:08:23):
So I knew we could at least fill up 45 minutes,
(00:08:25):
but I have gone into lunch appointments before with you.
(00:08:28):
Appointments.
(00:08:28):
Appointments.
(00:08:29):
Yeah, because I’m your client.
(00:08:31):
So there are appointments now.
(00:08:32):
It used to be we would get lunch as friends.
(00:08:34):
Yeah, yeah.
(00:08:34):
It used to be friends.
(00:08:35):
Now it’s all transactional.
(00:08:37):
Business expense.
(00:08:38):
So now when I do my business meetings with you, like any good...
(00:08:42):
All right so here’s my list though all right so you were this is what I know about
(00:08:45):
you based off of what I wrote down
(00:09:10):
Our typewriter.
(00:09:11):
You were born in Japan.
(00:09:12):
That’s right.
(00:09:13):
Wow.
(00:09:13):
You grew up in Hawaii.
(00:09:14):
That’s right.
(00:09:15):
Your dad was a chaplain for some military something or other.
(00:09:18):
Okay.
(00:09:18):
Not a chaplain.
(00:09:20):
Okay.
(00:09:21):
Okay.
(00:09:21):
Here’s where you might.
(00:09:22):
So my dad is actually a Vietnamese linguist.
(00:09:24):
He had a mustache.
(00:09:25):
He did have a mustache.
(00:09:26):
I remember that part.
(00:09:27):
Vietnamese linguist in the military, in the air force.
(00:09:30):
And his job was searching for remains in the Vietnam War.
(00:09:36):
I just thought he was some guy that did a bunch of boring church services.
(00:09:39):
No.
(00:09:40):
Where you might be confused.
(00:09:41):
He’s an elder now in a church.
(00:09:44):
Okay.
(00:09:44):
He got boring.
(00:09:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(00:09:46):
But he was cool.
(00:09:48):
My dad was like literal Indiana Jones.
(00:09:51):
Like he went to the jungles of Vietnam and Thailand.
(00:09:55):
He had like a machete.
(00:09:56):
And when you’re doing this job,
(00:09:58):
he’s a military guy,
(00:09:59):
but he’s not allowed to wear military uniforms,
(00:10:01):
so he’s wearing a boonie hat and a button-up unbuttoned.
(00:10:07):
It’s kind of cool.
(00:10:08):
Wait, button-up unbuttoned?
(00:10:09):
Describe that.
(00:10:10):
It’s like Indiana Jones.
(00:10:12):
It’s hot outside, and he has to unbutton a couple.
(00:10:16):
I see.
(00:10:16):
He was a really, really cool dad.
(00:10:19):
And I have all these, I don’t know, just imaginative...
(00:10:25):
We did go to a church where we had to bring a machete and that’s why you in the
(00:10:30):
jungle vacation Bible schools in Hawaii are a lot different that’s right we just
(00:10:34):
did really really
(00:10:59):
Okay, so that brings us to point number three on my list.
(00:11:04):
You grew up in Hawaii.
(00:11:05):
Your dad was not a chaplain.
(00:11:06):
You had something way more interesting that I already forgot.
(00:11:09):
You lived in Maryland for a while?
(00:11:10):
I did.
(00:11:12):
Two tours in Maryland.
(00:11:13):
Okay, two tours.
(00:11:15):
Yeah, I mean, it’s like you get stationed.
(00:11:17):
And my dad...
(00:11:19):
Okay, you should really interview my dad.
(00:11:20):
He’s more interesting.
(00:11:21):
We’ll do that next.
(00:11:22):
When we lived in Hawaii...
(00:11:24):
That’s when my dad would go and do the Vietnamese linguist thing over in Vietnam.
(00:11:29):
He’d take these trips.
(00:11:30):
In Maryland, he worked for the National Security Agency.
(00:11:33):
So he was the guy that was stealing everyone’s phone conversation post 9-11.
(00:11:37):
Yeah, basically.
(00:11:40):
I honestly didn’t know that was a thing before that broke with the Edward Snowden
(00:11:44):
and everything.
(00:11:44):
So the NSA has been stealing our information for longer than I thought.
(00:11:47):
Oh, yeah.
(00:11:47):
Well, so here’s the crazy thing.
(00:11:49):
When I was a kid,
(00:11:51):
and when we were living in Maryland,
(00:11:52):
it was in the 90s,
(00:11:53):
both times,
(00:11:54):
like early 90s and then late 90s,
(00:11:56):
and he used to always say,
(00:11:58):
hey,
(00:11:58):
if I told you,
(00:11:59):
you know,
(00:12:00):
what I did for a living,
(00:12:01):
I’d have to kill you.
(00:12:02):
He loved saying that.
(00:12:03):
Like, whether that was true.
(00:12:04):
He sounds like a green dad.
(00:12:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(00:12:06):
But it just filled you with, like, one word.
(00:12:08):
Dread and terror.
(00:12:09):
Yeah, it was like, what?
(00:12:11):
If he accidentally did, would he just kill us?
(00:12:13):
I don’t know.
(00:12:14):
He had a hard day at work and said, man, I get tired of spying on Fidel today.
(00:12:18):
He’s like, ah, s**t, Ben’s here.
(00:12:21):
Well, the funny thing is all that stuff, though, that he was doing is all declassified.
(00:12:25):
Now, he was still sticking to this line of, oh, I can’t tell you, can’t tell you.
(00:12:29):
Then one day,
(00:12:31):
like a few years ago I got him to tell me and I even recorded it because again he
(00:12:36):
can talk about it and it’s the craziest thing yeah again this is why he should be
(00:12:40):
on the podcast does he even want to talk about it like is he like is it just
(00:12:42):
something that’s so uninteresting to him no it’s I think he’s actually he’s quite
(00:12:47):
fascinated by the whole thing but basically think of this
(00:12:51):
When we left Vietnam, the Vietnam War.
(00:12:53):
We as in?
(00:12:54):
The Americans.
(00:12:55):
Okay.
(00:12:55):
Me and you.
(00:12:56):
When we lost.
(00:12:57):
When we went.
(00:12:57):
When you and I lost the Vietnam War.
(00:12:58):
I didn’t know we went there.
(00:13:01):
We left all of this equipment over there.
(00:13:03):
Just like we did with Afghanistan a few years back.
(00:13:06):
Whenever we leave somewhere.
(00:13:07):
You know way more about wars than I do.
(00:13:09):
Brilliant war.
(00:13:10):
That’s why I’m interested.
(00:13:11):
But basically we left all of this communication equipment and all of our stuff there.
(00:13:15):
We just left.
(00:13:17):
But part of it is kind of a strategic thing, because we know how to access all that stuff.
(00:13:21):
So basically, we’ve been spying.
(00:13:23):
After the war, we were actually spying on the Vietnamese using their own equipment.
(00:13:29):
And my dad was part of that.
(00:13:30):
He was translating stuff that they’re saying, because this was before ChatGPT or whatever.
(00:13:33):
Were they saying, hey, what is this thing?
(00:13:35):
How does it work?
(00:13:41):
I think I can share this, but if not, my dad might kill me once this goes live.
(00:13:48):
Good, because I’m running out of questions for you already.
(00:13:54):
I will not be a repeat guest.
(00:13:55):
Not at all.
(00:13:57):
Okay, well we’re off to a good start.
(00:13:58):
You went back to Hawaii.
(00:14:00):
Yep.
(00:14:02):
This is where I get sketchy because this is a story you told me and I didn’t really
(00:14:06):
understand all the nuances of it.
(00:14:08):
You’re writing this all down.
(00:14:09):
Yeah, well I can’t write it down.
(00:14:10):
I was trying to be a good friend and listen to you, but I mean a good business partner.
(00:14:14):
You fell in love with a girl and she moved away, right?
(00:14:18):
Yes.
(00:14:18):
And you thought she was the one.
(00:14:21):
It wasn’t just like
(00:14:23):
You legitimately thought you were going to marry her.
(00:14:26):
I was 12 and she was 9 and I have a song called 12 and 9.
(00:14:29):
By my favorite band.
(00:14:30):
You might remember this.
(00:14:35):
You down.
(00:14:36):
Yeah, so we were kids together.
(00:14:38):
We grew up.
(00:14:38):
We were both homeschool Christian families.
(00:14:42):
We went to the same church.
(00:14:43):
We had all this stuff in common.
(00:14:45):
And it was just like, yeah, young love kind of a thing.
(00:14:48):
But it just never really went away.
(00:14:50):
And then it get to a point where I don’t even really know her,
(00:14:54):
but it’s just built up in my head.
(00:14:56):
You know what I mean?
(00:14:57):
You just feel like you have to marry this person.
(00:15:00):
I’m a very loyal person, and it just like...
(00:15:02):
It felt like I had to, kind of.
(00:15:06):
It felt like I was already married to her.
(00:15:07):
It was fate, inevitable.
(00:15:09):
We never even held hands or anything, but I just feel like I have to.
(00:15:14):
This is the one.
(00:15:16):
She moves away, and then what’s the question?
(00:15:20):
Then what happens?
(00:15:23):
My next part was found her after you moved back to the continental U.S.,
(00:15:28):
asked her parents for a blessing to court or date,
(00:15:30):
maybe marry one day,
(00:15:31):
and your dad shot you down.
(00:15:34):
Her dad shot me down.
(00:15:35):
What happened was,
(00:15:39):
their family retired to Virginia,
(00:15:41):
and I ended up in Nebraska,
(00:15:43):
finished up some school.
(00:15:45):
And here I am, literally like 20 years old, finishing up community college.
(00:15:50):
When was the last time you saw her?
(00:15:52):
Or been in communication with her?
(00:15:54):
Like, was it a long-distance thing at that point?
(00:15:55):
Or just... Oh, yeah.
(00:15:56):
So they had been in Virginia for a while, and I had been in Nebraska and stuff.
(00:15:59):
And so...
(00:16:00):
But you’re still in contact.
(00:16:01):
Still in contact.
(00:16:02):
I was driving out there and seeing her and her family.
(00:16:05):
I flew out there at least once.
(00:16:10):
And anyways, I...
(00:16:13):
Up to this point, we’ve been together, quote unquote, for like since I was 12.
(00:16:19):
And we’re not an official relationship because we don’t really believe in that.
(00:16:22):
We kissed dating goodbye.
(00:16:23):
Okay.
(00:16:24):
Chris.
(00:16:25):
As I did as well.
(00:16:26):
And this is even technically a sanctioned like courtship,
(00:16:29):
but it’s just like this thing that Meg and I joke about it.
(00:16:32):
You’re saving yourself for marriage that may never happen because you can’t tell
(00:16:35):
somebody you like them.
(00:16:36):
So, I mean, it’s like pluses and minuses.
(00:16:39):
I mean, the plus, I guess, is that like
(00:16:42):
Because it was so unofficial and restricted, we don’t really have any regrets, I guess.
(00:16:48):
We never did anything, but we also didn’t really get to know each other.
(00:16:51):
So when her dad finally said,
(00:16:53):
hey,
(00:16:54):
don’t bother coming out here again,
(00:16:55):
because I was planning one last trip to see if we could make this work,
(00:16:59):
and he was like,
(00:17:00):
the thing he said was,
(00:17:01):
save the gas,
(00:17:02):
save the gas.
(00:17:04):
And I actually received it pretty well.
(00:17:06):
At that point, I had kind of gotten to the point where I’m like,
(00:17:09):
I don’t know if this is the right way.
(00:17:12):
I didn’t really know her.
(00:17:13):
I felt like we had been so...
(00:17:17):
Isolated from one another and we’d grown into different people.
(00:17:21):
It turns out she liked horses more than she liked people and she was living out in
(00:17:26):
the country and she ended up marrying this country doctor widower guy that was like
(00:17:31):
her dad’s age.
(00:17:32):
Really into horses.
(00:17:33):
Yeah,
(00:17:34):
they have horses I think and it’s a whole different lifestyle and I was this
(00:17:38):
graphic designer in the big city of Omaha and so it never would have worked.
(00:17:42):
Absolutely.
(00:17:43):
City folk just don’t understand them bumpkins us Nebraskans
(00:17:48):
Yeah,
(00:17:49):
but I mean,
(00:17:49):
like,
(00:17:50):
on the more spiritual side of it all,
(00:17:52):
now,
(00:17:53):
you’ll probably laugh at this,
(00:17:54):
but I listened to a Mark Driscoll sermon when I was driving back.
(00:17:58):
At the time, that was a good thing to do, but now we know better.
(00:18:02):
Well, it’s funny, because I wasn’t going to, like, an Acts 29 church or anything.
(00:18:06):
I was going to a really conservative,
(00:18:07):
like,
(00:18:07):
Presbyterian church,
(00:18:08):
and so listening to Mark Driscoll was edgy.
(00:18:09):
You didn’t get yelled at a lot.
(00:18:10):
Yeah, you didn’t get yelled at a lot yet.
(00:18:11):
I needed to.
(00:18:12):
So, like, I actually really, it was, like, a guilty pleasure listening to Mark Driscoll.
(00:18:15):
Oh, I’m sure.
(00:18:16):
But he basically was saying— That’s what he was going for, I think.
(00:18:18):
Oh yeah, for sure.
(00:18:19):
I mean, that Song of Solomon sermon series was...
(00:18:22):
I listened to all of that.
(00:18:24):
I learned a lot.
(00:18:26):
Didn’t we all?
(00:18:28):
Us kids at Kiss Dating Goodbye, now we have a pastor writing a book about anal sex.
(00:18:32):
Yeah, there you go.
(00:18:33):
So anyways,
(00:18:34):
when I was driving back from her family’s property in Virginia for the last time,
(00:18:40):
what ended up being the last time,
(00:18:44):
I turned on this sermon,
(00:18:46):
and he was just talking about...
(00:18:48):
Basically not making an idol out of things and being able to...
(00:18:51):
You know it’s not an idol in your life if you can go either way.
(00:18:54):
No matter what the decision is, you’re happy to go either way.
(00:18:59):
I did start really thinking about that and praying about that and being like, I need to...
(00:19:04):
It’s at a point right now where if this falls apart, I’m devastated.
(00:19:08):
I was like, this is ridiculous.
(00:19:09):
I don’t even know this person.
(00:19:11):
I had to let go of her.
(00:19:12):
When that call came, I was able to...
(00:19:16):
Yeah, I didn’t even shed a tear.
(00:19:17):
It was just like, alright, this is confirmation.
(00:19:19):
Move on.
(00:19:20):
And at that same time,
(00:19:23):
the woman I’m currently married to,
(00:19:25):
I already knew her and was getting to know her family.
(00:19:29):
So it was kind of like, a lot of people looked like a really quick
(00:19:32):
uh you know kind of what do you call that a rebound yeah relationship but really
(00:19:36):
like I had known her for many years as like a friend and was a part of her church
(00:19:42):
and a lot of stuff like that and so it looked like a quick rebound but really like
(00:19:46):
it wasn’t you know but I mean it sounds like you Meg your wife and this other this
(00:19:54):
horse horse gal sounds
(00:19:55):
It sounds like you’re basically like at the same you knew that as much about both
(00:19:58):
of them like the same about both of them yeah basically I feel like it wasn’t that
(00:20:02):
different the way you describe it at least think about this like in this like kind
(00:20:06):
of like ultra kind of conservative more restrictive you know whatever purity
(00:20:12):
culture buzzwords kind of culture um I love purity culture that’s that’s the name
(00:20:18):
of this podcast you seem like the type
(00:20:21):
You got all this cherub face energy Yeah It worked for me Mr.
(00:20:26):
Crud I like know Josh Harris now and I know he’s rejected it all but it’s like dude
(00:20:31):
it worked for me thanks for the book
(00:20:34):
Can you get him on the path?
(00:20:35):
So this is, we need to get Josh Harris and your dad.
(00:20:37):
That’s why you brought me here to, you gave me a couple drinks.
(00:20:40):
So part three, you’ve met Josh Harris and you’re willing to introduce him to me.
(00:20:44):
Yeah, that’d probably be a more interesting podcast.
(00:20:46):
But no, so basically like- You only guessed one.
(00:20:49):
When you’re not,
(00:20:49):
and I even think about this now,
(00:20:51):
like with my own kids as they get to that age,
(00:20:53):
like trying to just stay-
(00:20:56):
By C.S.
(00:20:56):
Beaty
(00:21:20):
I knew Megan as just like a girl that went to church and she was like hanging out
(00:21:23):
in groups and she was a friend I was not interested in her that way at all because
(00:21:26):
to be honest I thought one of my best friends was going to probably marry her
(00:21:29):
because he was kind of crazy about her and so and then came Ben and then yeah and
(00:21:34):
then he he found someone else and things fell apart with this other girl and it all
(00:21:38):
just kind of worked out but but I had all that time to just kind of see her as a
(00:21:42):
person you know and so then when you know
(00:21:45):
The romance could happen.
(00:21:48):
It just happened.
(00:21:49):
Did you feel like you were allowed to have romance, though?
(00:21:51):
Or even just be interested in someone?
(00:21:54):
I definitely felt like I could be interested because it was a very public,
(00:21:58):
unofficial relationship.
(00:22:01):
It was weird.
(00:22:02):
Exclusive, in a sense.
(00:22:03):
It was.
(00:22:04):
Everyone knew about it.
(00:22:05):
It was so understood.
(00:22:07):
Everyone knew we were an item, but it was unofficial.
(00:22:10):
So that’s the tricky part.
(00:22:11):
I don’t know what to really do with that.
(00:22:14):
Everyone was so afraid to put a label on it because they felt like,
(00:22:18):
well,
(00:22:18):
if you put a label on it,
(00:22:19):
then it’s official,
(00:22:20):
you’re getting married.
(00:22:21):
There was no real
(00:22:23):
We didn’t know what to do in that culture.
(00:22:26):
We didn’t know what to do with a relationship that wasn’t basically engagement or marriage.
(00:22:34):
And so he felt kind of betrothed, I guess.
(00:22:37):
Kind of like the old Jewish betrothal kind of feeling, I guess.
(00:22:42):
Where it’s kind of like, someday I’m going to marry so-and-so.
(00:22:45):
But until that time, enjoy your blue balls.
(00:22:47):
Exactly.
(00:22:48):
So that’s basically where I was.
(00:22:49):
All right, next part.
(00:22:52):
Yeah.
(00:22:53):
I feel like we could do a whole podcast episode on this because I can’t help but
(00:22:58):
put your experience on top of mine and compare and contrast because in some sense I
(00:23:03):
can totally identify with everything but I felt I was afraid to even talk to a girl
(00:23:08):
so that whole idea of being even it being understood that you knew somebody that
(00:23:12):
was exclusive even though if it wasn’t a label even that to me it wasn’t even so it
(00:23:20):
wasn’t allowed I was just terrified of it
(00:23:22):
By C.S.
(00:23:22):
Beaty
(00:23:46):
I don’t think I could come back from it.
(00:23:48):
I had such a fear of that.
(00:23:50):
We had no category for asking girls out.
(00:23:52):
That’s true.
(00:23:54):
I know what you mean though.
(00:23:55):
I’m trying to think back.
(00:23:58):
I did have a lot of friends that were girls.
(00:24:03):
I had a lot of...
(00:24:04):
I think because no one was dating, no one was even really courting or anything.
(00:24:09):
My older brother...
(00:24:11):
The first courtship I ever heard of courted my best friend’s big sister and they were married.
(00:24:20):
They were both 19.
(00:24:21):
They were both married.
(00:24:22):
They’re still married.
(00:24:23):
They’ve got six kids.
(00:24:24):
They live in the Seattle area.
(00:24:30):
Because there was no real official thing unless you’re ready to get married.
(00:24:35):
We would say things like
(00:24:38):
Don’t shop until you’re ready to buy.
(00:24:39):
Don’t stir up love before it pleases.
(00:24:41):
I think that’s from Song of Solomon.
(00:24:43):
That was kind of the mindset.
(00:24:44):
It’s been a while since I’ve listened to that sermon series.
(00:24:47):
Mark Driscoll, he’s been cancelled a few times since then.
(00:24:51):
He’s still going strong.
(00:24:53):
Yeah, which one?
(00:24:56):
But anyway, can you even find that old stuff?
(00:24:58):
Does it exist somewhere?
(00:24:59):
I’m sure somebody has it somewhere.
(00:25:00):
Some creepy guy’s got that in his basement.
(00:25:02):
Probably down here somewhere.
(00:25:03):
Oh, I’ve got it all, yeah.
(00:25:04):
You’ve got it all?
(00:25:05):
I bet I have it on an iPod still.
(00:25:07):
Yeah, no kidding.
(00:25:08):
But yeah, basically, I don’t know.
(00:25:12):
Because there wasn’t really any real relationship status you could kind of hope
(00:25:17):
for,
(00:25:17):
it was all very...
(00:25:20):
I don’t know.
(00:25:20):
We could just kind of be friends, too, and it was kind of cool.
(00:25:23):
Except for,
(00:25:24):
I mean,
(00:25:24):
I don’t know,
(00:25:24):
for me and that other girl,
(00:25:26):
we just kind of thought,
(00:25:29):
without expressing it to one another,
(00:25:31):
that someday we’d be married.
(00:25:32):
I don’t know.
(00:25:33):
But the culture or the community kind of reinforces some of those things, too.
(00:25:37):
Oh, for sure.
(00:25:37):
You know what I mean?
(00:25:38):
Absolutely.
(00:25:39):
I look back on it and it’s like why did I fall so head over heels for her and part
(00:25:44):
of it was because I overheard other people talking about us and it made me feel
(00:25:47):
good it’d be like oh man you see those two what a cute couple and someday and you
(00:25:52):
know we were both into music and that can also help she wrote songs I wrote songs
(00:25:57):
and that just like it kind of just fit this storybook image you know in my head and
(00:26:04):
so I don’t know like I said purity culture worked great for me um
(00:26:10):
That’s the name of my book.
(00:26:11):
Our next guest would just talk to myself and read my own book out loud.
(00:26:16):
Actually, just listen to my audio book and you can hear my take on that or my response.
(00:26:24):
Next question.
(00:26:24):
Okay, next question.
(00:26:25):
We’re 25 minutes in.
(00:26:27):
We’ve covered the Vietnam War.
(00:26:29):
We’re doing this podcast.
(00:26:31):
All right, so I put at some point got married to someone else.
(00:26:35):
So you skipped ahead a little bit.
(00:26:37):
Meg.
(00:26:37):
Meg.
(00:26:38):
Who is now the mother of a lot of kids.
(00:26:41):
Too many to count.
(00:26:42):
Yeah, we’ve got five kiddos.
(00:26:44):
Rounding up to ten.
(00:26:45):
That’s right.
(00:26:45):
And we have been married for 16 years as of last week.
(00:26:50):
So, yeah, it’s going great.
(00:26:53):
It’s awesome.
(00:26:54):
That is great.
(00:26:54):
That is great to hear.
(00:26:56):
And I don’t believe you.
(00:26:58):
You mentioned this a little bit.
(00:27:01):
So you’re a designer.
(00:27:03):
That’s right.
(00:27:04):
Graphic designer, branding designer.
(00:27:07):
So you started doing that.
(00:27:09):
Was it Metro Community College?
(00:27:10):
Did the program there?
(00:27:12):
How did this all come about?
(00:27:13):
Yeah, yeah.
(00:27:14):
So that...
(00:27:15):
Good question, Chris.
(00:27:17):
Thank you.
(00:27:17):
I’ve been told I’m good at this.
(00:27:19):
You are good at this.
(00:27:19):
Wow.
(00:27:20):
I feel so seen and heard by you.
(00:27:23):
I’m not listening, but I can see you.
(00:27:26):
I was homeschooled all the way through.
(00:27:29):
Well, all the way until I started going to college early.
(00:27:32):
So that’s kind of the thing with homeschoolers,
(00:27:34):
the really smart ones,
(00:27:36):
or the ones whose parents run out of patience and things for them to do at home.
(00:27:40):
When they’re about 15 or 16 they’ll like get early enrollment into a community
(00:27:44):
college or take the GED I actually took the GED when I was 16 and started going to
(00:27:50):
take various classes at various community colleges in Hawaii so there was one
(00:27:56):
called Windward Community College on the Windward side of Oahu
(00:28:01):
The main one was Leeward Community College on the Leeward side of the island.
(00:28:05):
They are so good at naming.
(00:28:07):
It’s kind of lame.
(00:28:09):
But it’s funny.
(00:28:10):
I was training to be a classical pianist.
(00:28:15):
I need to pronounce that better.
(00:28:19):
What is a classical pianist?
(00:28:22):
Pianist.
(00:28:23):
Pianist.
(00:28:23):
I think I said that right.
(00:28:26):
And I was convinced that I was, yeah, music was where it was at.
(00:28:30):
And so I started just taking electives of like ear training,
(00:28:35):
of theory,
(00:28:36):
music theory,
(00:28:38):
some classical guitar.
(00:28:40):
Lots of just music-related classes.
(00:28:43):
And I just fell into, accidentally fell into the world of graphic design.
(00:28:49):
My dad’s a military guy.
(00:28:51):
Everyone I knew was basically a military guy or worked on garage doors.
(00:28:54):
There was no category.
(00:28:57):
I was creative.
(00:28:58):
I always liked to draw.
(00:28:59):
I didn’t know there were so many garages in Hawaii.
(00:29:03):
More than you might think.
(00:29:04):
I didn’t have one, but some rich people have them, I guess.
(00:29:08):
But
(00:29:09):
I had no category.
(00:29:10):
I didn’t even think about how everything that you see.
(00:29:13):
I’m looking down and seeing all of these.
(00:29:15):
If only we had a video.
(00:29:16):
Yeah, if only we had a video.
(00:29:17):
All of these coasters in front of me and cool bottle designs you have up in your
(00:29:25):
beautiful bar here.
(00:29:27):
I never even thought that someone had to design all this stuff.
(00:29:29):
Someone had to draw all this stuff.
(00:29:32):
And...
(00:29:33):
I stumbled into it.
(00:29:34):
Literally,
(00:29:36):
this gal at my church asked me,
(00:29:39):
she said,
(00:29:40):
hey,
(00:29:40):
do you know anybody in the University of Hawaii school system that has an artistic
(00:29:48):
eye?
(00:29:48):
That’s what she said.
(00:29:49):
And I was like, well, that’s a very specific question.
(00:29:51):
It’s a weird way of asking that.
(00:29:53):
An artistic eye.
(00:29:55):
I know somebody has an astigmatism.
(00:30:10):
They were working for this research division of the University of Hawaii called the
(00:30:15):
Hawaii Coral Reef Initiative.
(00:30:18):
Not made up, but basically they helped raise money for scientists studying the coral reef.
(00:30:24):
And they needed someone to help them with publications about coral reef health.
(00:30:30):
How do we make this not boring?
(00:30:32):
Yeah, exactly.
(00:30:33):
And so she’s like,
(00:30:34):
do you know anybody in the University of Hawaii system who has an artistic eye?
(00:30:38):
That’s how she’s
(00:30:39):
I’ll let you know if someone comes to mind and then it was like literally three
(00:30:43):
days later I go wait a second
(00:30:46):
I go to Leeward Community College,
(00:30:49):
which is technically a part of the University of Hawaii system.
(00:30:53):
It’s not the University of Hawaii main campus, but it’s all part of the same system.
(00:30:58):
And I have an artistic eye.
(00:31:00):
Now,
(00:31:00):
if she had said,
(00:31:01):
who is a graphic designer or knows how to use Photoshop or something like that,
(00:31:05):
I would have no clue because I was not aware of that profession.
(00:31:09):
I’d never used an Adobe product like Photoshop or Illustrator, anything like that.
(00:31:14):
But she said artistic eye and I loved at that time I was doing a lot of drawing
(00:31:18):
caricatures of my friends so I just drew a lot for fun in between music classes and
(00:31:23):
stuff and piano lessons and things that I thought were like what I was going to do
(00:31:27):
and so a few days later I like reached out and I’m like I think that’s me
(00:31:33):
And so I go down to my first and one of my only job interviews ever,
(00:31:37):
which wasn’t really a job interview.
(00:31:38):
They just gave me the job because it was a student help job.
(00:31:42):
You didn’t get paid.
(00:31:44):
Barely.
(00:31:44):
It was a very small amount of pay, very few hours a week.
(00:31:49):
And they paid for me to learn all of the programs.
(00:31:54):
I took a non-credit Photoshop class,
(00:31:56):
a non-credit Illustrator class,
(00:31:58):
a non-credit,
(00:32:00):
it was before InDesign,
(00:32:02):
it was called PageMaker,
(00:32:03):
Adobe PageMaker.
(00:32:05):
And I got introduced to this crazy world that everything we see
(00:32:10):
is like designed and made and people will pay for you to do this stuff and logos
(00:32:15):
and it was like overwhelming because like I did have this artistic eye and so
(00:32:21):
immediately I just started shifting all of my studies towards the visual arts and I
(00:32:29):
also happened to run into this like retired Disney animator who was living in
(00:32:33):
Hawaii and
(00:32:34):
And teaching He’s the guy His name is Dan Boulos If you’re listening Dan Dan Boulos
(00:32:40):
Dan Boulos Look him up I need another podcast guest Dan Boulos Seriously I should
(00:32:44):
reach out to him He’s still around I think he still lives in Hawaii But if you look
(00:32:48):
him up He is the one that animated the wolves In Beauty and the Beast I think he
(00:32:53):
animated
(00:32:54):
Mrs.
(00:32:55):
Potts and Chip because everyone animates a different thing he animated at that time
(00:33:01):
the animation you actually had to draw it sell animation by him and he also
(00:33:07):
animated I think Flounder from Little Mermaid then he also did some stuff with
(00:33:12):
Quest for Camelot not Disney so he was this old school animator but he was teaching
(00:33:18):
some of the graphic design and animation classes in Hawaii at the community college
(00:33:23):
And it just opened me up to this whole world.
(00:33:26):
So at first I thought I’d be a storyboard artist for like Pixar or something.
(00:33:31):
But then I just, I kind of went all in on this Hawaii coral reef initiative.
(00:33:35):
And I ended up working there seven years.
(00:33:36):
Even after I graduated, I kept the job.
(00:33:39):
Even when I moved to Omaha and I married Meg, I kept that job.
(00:33:44):
That’s what I bought my first house on was this job.
(00:33:46):
No coral reefs in Omaha, by the way.
(00:33:49):
Yeah, no coral reefs here.
(00:33:51):
But I was literally,
(00:33:53):
when I was first married,
(00:33:55):
living here,
(00:33:55):
I was working full time for the Hawaii Coral Reef Initiative and I was doing remote
(00:34:01):
work from my basement way before it was cool.
(00:34:04):
In 2010,
(00:34:05):
2011,
(00:34:07):
working for this organization in Hawaii,
(00:34:10):
drawing pictures of fish all day and doing publication design and layout.
(00:34:16):
It was insane.
(00:34:17):
So what would they do with your fish?
(00:34:19):
Okay,
(00:34:20):
so the big thing that we did,
(00:34:21):
we did a few things,
(00:34:22):
but the big thing that we did was we created this really cool interactive public
(00:34:29):
school science curriculum for Hawaii public schools called Reef Pulse Hawaii,
(00:34:34):
where it ended up being a thousand-page curriculum with full-color illustrations
(00:34:39):
that I did.
(00:34:40):
So no kids reading that.
(00:34:42):
Yeah, exactly.
(00:34:43):
Seven years wasted.
(00:34:45):
I don’t know if this was ever used, to be honest.
(00:34:47):
It’s like a seven year project.
(00:34:49):
I kid you not.
(00:34:50):
But the interesting part was it was so tailored to my skills that there was also
(00:34:58):
this whole science song component and I wrote and recorded
(00:35:04):
like I think 30 science songs wow for kids it’s a part of the school bus yeah it’s
(00:35:10):
like that and it was I got to explore all these different styles of music I mean
(00:35:14):
some of it’s better than others other parts of it you know it’s rough around the
(00:35:17):
edges but it’s just funny because I had this like little mini career where I had to
(00:35:21):
learn publication design I had to learn illustration I had to learn music recording
(00:35:26):
you’d think I’d be better at recording podcasts and stuff
(00:35:31):
But yeah, it was like so weird.
(00:35:35):
Like I got to do all this stuff.
(00:35:36):
And the other crazy part about it too is my younger brother Abe,
(00:35:41):
he worked for them as well doing web design and video stuff and animation.
(00:35:44):
And so him and I were like,
(00:35:47):
Before I married Meg,
(00:35:48):
we were living together and going to school here in Omaha and both working for the
(00:35:52):
Hawaii Coral Reef Initiative and doing all this crazy stuff together,
(00:35:56):
making flash websites and even storyboards for animated science videos.
(00:36:03):
It was wild.
(00:36:04):
At 17, 18, 19 years old.
(00:36:07):
It was wild.
(00:36:07):
So that was your full-time job?
(00:36:09):
It turned into a full-time job.
(00:36:10):
It started part-time, turned into a full-time job with benefits.
(00:36:15):
I feel like that happens to every artist.
(00:36:23):
Now I’m back there.
(00:36:24):
Now I do this again.
(00:36:25):
Way to bury the lead.
(00:36:27):
That was my funny part at the end.
(00:36:29):
I’m going to read the last bullet here.
(00:36:32):
And now you’re living in your parents’ basement and talking to me as the very first
(00:36:36):
guest on a podcast that didn’t exist until this very interview.
(00:36:40):
that was that was the return home part of the hero’s journey but we skipped all the
(00:36:44):
good parts all the good parts yeah well it is funny because like yeah I literally
(00:36:48):
yeah as Chris just uh gave away I go by C.S.
(00:36:52):
Beaty we C.S.
(00:36:54):
Beaty uh just gave away um B.A.
(00:36:58):
Looters over here um
(00:37:05):
We sold our Benson home and we’re looking for a house and living with my parents.
(00:37:09):
So I am living in my parents’ basement and running my design studio out of my
(00:37:15):
parents’ basement at the moment.
(00:37:17):
Hopefully not forever.
(00:37:18):
I wish I was in your basement.
(00:37:19):
Look how cool this is.
(00:37:20):
My basement is way better than your parents’ basement.
(00:37:24):
I should move in.
(00:37:25):
If you take one of my three kids and have the basement.
(00:37:28):
I promise I won’t.
(00:37:29):
I will take that trade.
(00:37:30):
Well, your kids are probably better than mine.
(00:37:32):
I could probably I’d probably bring one of them I’ve got a lot of kids I don’t know
(00:37:35):
I wouldn’t even notice you probably wouldn’t even notice so alright so let’s fill
(00:37:39):
in these gaps here so how did you end up in Omaha yeah yeah okay so this is
(00:37:44):
actually so somewhat easy so I again was going to community college in Hawaii
(00:37:49):
switching from music to design related stuff I have this part time job but I’m
(00:37:54):
still living at home I’m living with my parents I’m 18 and I turn 19 I’m like this
(00:37:59):
is getting crazy I need to move out
(00:38:01):
But Hawaii is the most expensive place to move in.
(00:38:04):
And so I’m looking at places that I could move in with maybe, I don’t know, six of my friends.
(00:38:08):
It’s like, okay, we’re going to have to split this a lot of different ways.
(00:38:12):
But a lot of them were going off to college in the mainland, as we call it.
(00:38:17):
And I was just realizing, oh man, this is going to be super expensive.
(00:38:21):
And that’s when my younger brother,
(00:38:23):
Abe,
(00:38:23):
who was really young,
(00:38:26):
because he’s homeschooled,
(00:38:26):
was going to community college since he was 14.
(00:38:28):
He was like,
(00:38:31):
Ben,
(00:38:32):
we get in-state tuition,
(00:38:33):
apparently,
(00:38:34):
this is true,
(00:38:35):
you get in-state tuition when you’re a military dependent,
(00:38:38):
and we word military dependents,
(00:38:40):
Where your parent in the military is stationed,
(00:38:46):
and I guess where they’re from,
(00:38:47):
like where their home base is,
(00:38:48):
I don’t understand,
(00:38:50):
which is technically Omaha.
(00:38:51):
So I would get in-state tuition in Hawaii,
(00:38:53):
where my dad was stationed,
(00:38:55):
or I would get in-state tuition in Omaha,
(00:38:57):
where my dad is from,
(00:38:58):
I guess.
(00:38:59):
And it was like, well, you look at out-of-state tuition, that was really expensive anywhere, and
(00:39:05):
But I was like, wow, I could move out in Omaha.
(00:39:07):
We started looking at prices of, like, apartments in Elkhorn, Nebraska, and stuff like that.
(00:39:12):
I’m like, you can buy three of these.
(00:39:13):
Dang, yeah, like, wow, I could do this.
(00:39:17):
I could pay half of this apartment, right?
(00:39:19):
So it just, like,
(00:39:21):
I was just like,
(00:39:21):
wow,
(00:39:22):
I’ll just go there,
(00:39:23):
finish up some school,
(00:39:24):
and then I’m sure I’ll move on to the East Coast,
(00:39:27):
the West Coast,
(00:39:28):
somewhere cool,
(00:39:29):
whatever.
(00:39:30):
I’ll be rich and famous.
(00:39:31):
I’ll figure it out.
(00:39:32):
Never thought I would stay here for very long.
(00:39:34):
It was like, this is where my grandparents were because my parents were from here.
(00:39:37):
But I was like, there’s no way I’m going to stay here for very long.
(00:39:40):
I’m going to finish up some school because it’s cheaper, and that’s it.
(00:39:45):
That’s not what happened.
(00:39:45):
But yeah, that’s what I thought.
(00:39:47):
No, we already covered that part.
(00:39:48):
No, we didn’t.
(00:39:50):
I don’t know where we’re at in this interview at this point.
(00:39:51):
Well,
(00:39:52):
basically,
(00:39:52):
I’m in Omaha,
(00:39:54):
and at the same time,
(00:39:56):
this girl that I thought I was going to marry,
(00:39:57):
her family relocates to Virginia,
(00:39:59):
and that’s where I keep on driving from Omaha,
(00:40:01):
Virginia,
(00:40:03):
trying to make this thing work.
(00:40:05):
It falls apart, and at the same time,
(00:40:08):
Megan is like and her family is a part of my life here in Omaha and it just it
(00:40:13):
moved pretty fast once everything fell apart the other girl it was like became
(00:40:16):
really clear oh dang
(00:40:18):
Why am I trying to marry this girl when I can marry this girl?
(00:40:21):
And so we were married pretty quickly after that.
(00:40:25):
So you met Meg through church?
(00:40:27):
Yeah.
(00:40:28):
She went to my church.
(00:40:28):
We were going to this small conservative Presbyterian church called Dominion
(00:40:34):
Covenant Church that still exists.
(00:40:37):
And my best friend was the pastor’s son, oldest son.
(00:40:41):
And he really liked Megan So I didn’t actually know her that well But he talked
(00:40:46):
about her all the time But he ended up moving away I could do a way better job with
(00:40:49):
her He moved away,
(00:40:50):
fell in love with someone else And I was in his wedding And realizing,
(00:40:55):
oh,
(00:40:55):
no one’s marrying Megan She’s available So I ended up marrying her She was super
(00:41:01):
cool It is funny I think you probably have this You have your heart so set on
(00:41:09):
something And then
(00:41:12):
You see what you should be attracted to or interested in or what’s actually compatible.
(00:41:24):
Meg and I are really well matched.
(00:41:26):
We’re totally opposites.
(00:41:28):
Totally opposites.
(00:41:30):
I’m an extrovert.
(00:41:30):
She’s an introvert.
(00:41:32):
She’s fiercely loyal.
(00:41:37):
I don’t know if you believe in the Enneagram.
(00:41:38):
That’s a big
(00:41:45):
I’m a big seven adventurer,
(00:41:48):
and she’s a one perfectionist kind of person,
(00:41:52):
if you believe in that sort of thing.
(00:41:53):
I hear some people do.
(00:41:55):
Yeah, some people do.
(00:41:56):
It’s fine.
(00:41:57):
I have conflicted feelings.
(00:41:59):
But anyways, we’re really different than one another, but it just kind of works.
(00:42:05):
Yeah.
(00:42:08):
Does the Enneagram think that you’re supposed to work?
(00:42:11):
That’s a good question.
(00:42:11):
I think it does.
(00:42:12):
I think opposites are supposed to attract.
(00:42:14):
When I think of the Enneagram,
(00:42:15):
I think of those placemats at Chinese restaurants that tell you the Chinese zodiac,
(00:42:18):
and it’s like,
(00:42:19):
if you’re a horse,
(00:42:20):
never marry a rat.
(00:42:23):
Which the real reason is because there’s an 18-year age gap,
(00:42:26):
and that’s probably not going to work
(00:42:27):
Maybe they’re on to something.
(00:42:30):
We do have a large age gap.
(00:42:31):
I will say that.
(00:42:34):
I’m very immature for my age and she’s very mature for age.
(00:42:38):
We meet in the middle.
(00:42:40):
Which leads me to the next part.
(00:42:41):
You started an app to sell flowers.
(00:42:44):
My gosh, Chris.
(00:42:45):
You’ve done your research.
(00:42:47):
I was friends with you when you did that.
(00:42:50):
That’s true.
(00:42:51):
I forgot about that.
(00:42:52):
So did everyone else.
(00:42:54):
I feel like I’m on Hot Ones right now.
(00:42:57):
I need some more of this it’s really good no it’s fine we’re just drinking like
(00:43:04):
sailors over here those of you on the video broadcast that’s right well I answer
(00:43:10):
this question Chris is like heading over to the bar but yeah so a couple friends
(00:43:15):
from church oh my gosh we’re getting straight bourbon here on the rocks okay
(00:43:22):
Anyways,
(00:43:23):
a couple friends from church,
(00:43:24):
they had this idea for a flower delivery app that we ended up calling Zinnia.
(00:43:31):
Basically, I was just starting my design company, Fruitful, at the time.
(00:43:37):
They were like, hey,
(00:43:39):
Maybe if we give Ben like part ownership in this thing,
(00:43:42):
he’ll do a bunch of design work for us on the cheap.
(00:43:46):
So I did get to like really do a lot of like UI, UX design for apps and homepage.
(00:43:54):
Ultimately, it ended up not really amounting to a whole lot.
(00:43:57):
But we did, you know, we got into like an accelerator or whatever you call that.
(00:44:02):
We raised some money.
(00:44:03):
I remember when that happened because I remember being told to pray for you.
(00:44:06):
You probably should have prayed some more.
(00:44:12):
It’s your fault.
(00:44:13):
Blame it on me.
(00:44:13):
I did buy flowers from you, though.
(00:44:15):
I thought that might actually help.
(00:44:16):
Well, we did end up selling.
(00:44:18):
We did sell to a florist in town.
(00:44:20):
I think Janusek Florist still has the site.
(00:44:22):
I think it still exists.
(00:44:24):
It’s kind of an old Squarespace site.
(00:44:26):
Could probably use an update.
(00:44:28):
But it ended up just being a lot smaller.
(00:44:31):
The original concept of it, Chris, was more of like...
(00:44:36):
It’s going to sound cliche.
(00:44:38):
More of like the Airbnb for florists,
(00:44:41):
where basically florists would be able to have an account and be able to sell their
(00:44:47):
flowers on this marketplace like Airbnb.
(00:44:51):
That was the idea initially.
(00:44:52):
But basically, we went through that accelerator.
(00:44:54):
They’re like, this is, oh, you pulled it up.
(00:44:56):
Yeah, no, it’s still there.
(00:44:57):
GoZidia.com.
(00:44:58):
I bought flowers from it.
(00:44:59):
It still exists.
(00:44:59):
It’s got your logo on it.
(00:45:01):
You made this logo, right?
(00:45:01):
Yeah, I made that logo.
(00:45:02):
Yeah, actually, Aaron Pilly and I did that.
(00:45:04):
I think Aaron really did the lettering on that.
(00:45:07):
Seems like your style.
(00:45:08):
GoZinnia.com to send flowers in Omaha.
(00:45:12):
If you’re in Omaha.
(00:45:13):
Only if you’re in Omaha.
(00:45:15):
And they come in a burlap sack.
(00:45:16):
Yeah,
(00:45:17):
basically the final version of Zinnia,
(00:45:19):
it went far away from the marketplace and it just became like,
(00:45:23):
hey,
(00:45:23):
if you order from,
(00:45:24):
you can order these set like bouquets from Zinnia,
(00:45:27):
GoZinnia.com and Janusek Florist will make them and drive them out and deliver
(00:45:32):
them.
(00:45:32):
And they’re all named after your wives.
(00:45:34):
Yeah, they were like all named after the wives of the founders.
(00:45:39):
Is there actually a Meg?
(00:45:40):
I can’t even remember.
(00:45:41):
Yeah,
(00:45:41):
I don’t remember what the arrangement was,
(00:45:43):
but I remember they’re all,
(00:45:43):
like,
(00:45:43):
how’d they come up with these?
(00:45:45):
Oh, yeah, it’s their wives’ names.
(00:45:46):
Yeah, it’s kind of creepy, isn’t it?
(00:45:48):
Yeah, everyone knows our wives.
(00:45:49):
I’ve done buying those Megan flowers.
(00:45:50):
The Megan flowers.
(00:45:53):
Gross.
(00:45:54):
Oh, man.
(00:45:55):
Canceled.
(00:45:57):
Canceled before even, we didn’t even release the first podcast, and it’s already been canceled.
(00:46:01):
That’s so funny.
(00:46:02):
I kind of, like,
(00:46:04):
yeah I’ve forgotten that I learned a lot of stuff during that that phase it was
(00:46:08):
kind of kind of crazy because like yeah a couple of his friends you know Nathan and
(00:46:13):
Andy who were kind of doing that they they put a lot on the line both of them kind
(00:46:17):
of left their main jobs for a minute and tried it out and you didn’t you’re I
(00:46:22):
didn’t no no no I’m not that dumb yeah they gave me 10% of the company but like
(00:46:28):
Because there were some investors when we went through that accelerator.
(00:46:31):
Janice Tech Forest did pay us.
(00:46:34):
They paid us to purchase the name and the website and everything.
(00:46:38):
But because we owed all this money to these investors, I think I made like $36.
(00:46:43):
Or like $64.
(00:46:44):
I think that’s my exact royalties on my book so far.
(00:46:47):
Yeah, that’s right.
(00:46:48):
That’s like my royalties on my book.
(00:46:50):
But like, yeah, it was like under $100 for sure was my payout.
(00:46:55):
But I guess it’s better than owing something.
(00:46:59):
I bought a lot of flyers.
(00:47:00):
I still do every once in a while.
(00:47:02):
Now I’m a big fan of the Trader Joe’s bouquets.
(00:47:07):
That’s what my wife likes.
(00:47:08):
That’s what the real Megan likes, is buying Trader Joe’s bouquets.
(00:47:11):
Yeah, so I switched to that because...
(00:47:14):
It’s just easier.
(00:47:16):
Yeah.
(00:47:17):
But I did buy a lot.
(00:47:18):
Actually, I don’t know if you knew this or not.
(00:47:20):
Technically, I don’t know how technical it was.
(00:47:22):
Our wedding was done by Zinnia.
(00:47:25):
What?
(00:47:26):
Yeah.
(00:47:27):
I did not remember this.
(00:47:28):
Yeah.
(00:47:29):
So Andy’s wife.
(00:47:31):
Yeah.
(00:47:32):
Which floral arrangement is she?
(00:47:34):
Let me see.
(00:47:37):
I’ve had too many drinks.
(00:47:38):
You’ve had any?
(00:47:41):
Unless you’re counting your Yeti full of wine over there.
(00:47:44):
Yeah.
(00:47:46):
I don’t remember Andy Holtz’s wife’s name.
(00:47:50):
Why am I totally blind?
(00:47:51):
I don’t know.
(00:47:52):
She’s a great woman.
(00:47:52):
I’m sure she still is.
(00:47:53):
You have to delete this out.
(00:47:54):
Yeah.
(00:47:54):
I’m sure she still is.
(00:47:55):
But she was our... Katie.
(00:47:57):
Katie.
(00:47:58):
Yeah, Katie Holtz.
(00:47:59):
The Katie.
(00:48:00):
Sorry, Katie, when you listen to this.
(00:48:01):
Sorry, Katie.
(00:48:02):
I was thinking about my wife so much.
(00:48:03):
Yeah.
(00:48:04):
I know you’re a big fan of this podcast, so you’re probably very upset.
(00:48:08):
So Katie was our wedding coordinator.
(00:48:12):
Oh, yeah.
(00:48:12):
Yeah.
(00:48:12):
So she was working for the church.
(00:48:14):
That was her little gig.
(00:48:16):
She would coordinate weddings.
(00:48:17):
So we got married.
(00:48:18):
And she did all the coordinating.
(00:48:21):
It’s so important.
(00:48:22):
You’ve got to have a coordinator.
(00:48:23):
I didn’t really have a coordinator.
(00:48:24):
It can really help.
(00:48:25):
I really didn’t understand what her job was until I realized all the things that we
(00:48:29):
didn’t know what we were doing.
(00:48:30):
And then we’re like, oh, okay, this is great.
(00:48:33):
And what we were telling her, we’re like, this is its own podcast episode.
(00:48:39):
So we thought we had a hookup through Paige’s dad with the flowers.
(00:48:43):
And so it was just her dad’s always done a bunch of weird
(00:48:47):
By C.S.
(00:48:47):
Beaty
(00:49:07):
But so like we’re we’re just complaining to her about how like well we thought we
(00:49:12):
had a good hookup with a wholesale flower dealer we went to this wholesale flower
(00:49:15):
and we gave the name of the account they said oh that’s not been active for a long
(00:49:19):
time we’re like well thanks thanks future father-in-law
(00:49:23):
So we’re telling Katie the story and if you’re wondering what that background noise
(00:49:27):
is my wife is now getting into the tub above the ceiling above us it’s the running
(00:49:32):
water so Katie she goes well we probably have a wholesale account you can just use
(00:49:38):
ours and we’re like
(00:49:39):
Okay, but then what do we do?
(00:49:42):
And so Katie figured out like one of the, is it Epperson?
(00:49:47):
Emily Epperson?
(00:49:48):
Yeah.
(00:49:49):
She’s another big fan of the podcast.
(00:49:50):
I gotta give her a shout out.
(00:49:52):
Gosh, all these ladies that listen.
(00:49:54):
Yeah, good memory.
(00:49:55):
Wow.
(00:49:55):
Geez, Chris, you were insane.
(00:49:57):
so she was the florist and so she was she designed a lot of those bouquets yeah so
(00:50:01):
we got so katie reached out to her because it was still very like zinni was still a
(00:50:05):
thing yeah reached out to her uh gave us a sweet deal on the uh on everything
(00:50:10):
because they wanted they didn’t know if they wanted to do weddings or not and so
(00:50:13):
like they basically just gave it to us at cost oh my goodness to promote and say we
(00:50:18):
did this wedding and so like you probably ran a lot of stuff on your website or
(00:50:22):
somebody did about my wedding and you know you were actually even there and
(00:50:27):
He had no recollection of this.
(00:50:28):
No, I did not remember.
(00:50:30):
Yeah, so it was like Paige showed me, I think, what did we use, Facebook back then?
(00:50:36):
Yeah, probably.
(00:50:37):
Zinnia Facebook.
(00:50:38):
Yeah.
(00:50:39):
Talked about our wedding and used our wedding as like advertisement of,
(00:50:42):
look at this great wedding game.
(00:50:43):
And it turned out great.
(00:50:44):
I’m going to dig this up.
(00:50:45):
I still have the dead wedding bouquet upstairs.
(00:50:47):
Do you really?
(00:50:48):
Well, I mean, doesn’t everybody keep their wedding bouquet?
(00:50:51):
I guess I don’t.
(00:50:52):
Maybe Meg has it somewhere in storage.
(00:50:55):
My goodness.
(00:50:56):
You have such a good memory.
(00:50:58):
Your marriage isn’t as strong as ours.
(00:50:59):
Apparently not.
(00:51:00):
If I had that dead bouquet, I don’t, man.
(00:51:02):
Yeah.
(00:51:02):
Well, and I actually, my one contribution to our floral arrangement was
(00:51:08):
I was in a wedding where they used silk flowers.
(00:51:10):
Like I was like a groomsman or something.
(00:51:11):
I loved it because I didn’t have to worry about destroying it.
(00:51:14):
And so I said, I want fake flowers for our, what do they call them?
(00:51:17):
Oh, the corsage.
(00:51:18):
Corsage.
(00:51:19):
Is that what it is?
(00:51:20):
Yeah.
(00:51:20):
So I said,
(00:51:20):
I want a fake flower because I said,
(00:51:22):
I don’t want to worry the whole night about,
(00:51:23):
am I going to kill this
(00:51:25):
You know, living thing, this delicate thing.
(00:51:28):
I just want to be able to pick up a kid and swing it.
(00:51:30):
You want something fake just like you.
(00:51:32):
Yes, it was a good metaphor for our marriage.
(00:51:36):
It’s like everything’s been fake up to this point.
(00:51:39):
Why stop now?
(00:51:41):
Okay, so after you started around that time, we’ve already alluded to this, you started a band.
(00:51:46):
You found a really amazing diamond in the rough to be your drummer.
(00:51:50):
You got offered a recording contract and turned it down.
(00:51:54):
That’s true.
(00:51:54):
Some of us wanted to take that deal, by the way.
(00:51:56):
