The Ezra Klein Show

What’s the Left’s Vision for Foreign Policy After Trump?

The Democratic Party is in the middle of a rupture over foreign policy – with Israel and Palestine at the center. In recent weeks, the Democratic senators Brian Schatz and Chris Van Hollen both called for a break with the Biden administration’s policies toward Israel. Schatz said the next administration needs “a whole new crop of foreign policy staffers,” while Van Hollen went further, accusing Biden’s senior decision makers of “complicity.” And Gaza has become a central issue splitting Democrats in primaries around the country. It’s become such a profound fault line, it reminds me of how the Iraq war remade the Democratic Party years ago. And Democrats face huge foreign policy questions beyond Gaza, too. Trump has taken a wrecking ball to the rules-based order, and the American public has become increasingly cynical about U.S. interventions abroad. Do Democrats want to try to restore what came before Trump? Is that even possible? Or is there a vision for something new? Matt Duss is at the center of foreign policy thinking on the left. He’s the executive vice president at the Center for International Policy, previously served as Senator Bernie Sanders’s foreign policy adviser and is currently advising Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. So I thought he’d be the perfect person to ask: What would a left foreign policy actually look like? What would it try to do in the world?Mentioned: “The Hard Truth My Party Needs to Face [https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/26/opinion/democrats-israel.html]” by Chris Van Hollen “Democrats Can’t Avoid a Reckoning With Gaza [https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/democats-party-dnc-chair-gaza-genocide/]” by Matthew Duss “Why We Need a Progressive Foreign Policy [https://www.chrismurphyct.com/p/why-we-need-a-progressive-foreign]” by Chris Murphy “Congressman Jason Crow’s New Vision for American Foreign Policy [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTtXza31D0k]” by Jason Crow Book Recommendations: Crisis of the Common Good [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374621117/crisisofthecommongood/] by Chris Murphy From Life Itself [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374621117/crisisofthecommongood/] by Suzy Hansen Book of Mercy [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/29436/book-of-mercy-by-leonard-cohen/9780771021879] by Leonard Cohen Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Julie Beer and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Johnny Simon. Our recording engineer is Johnny Simon. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Shows is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The New Right’s Very Old Vision of Men

A new masculinist movement has gone mainstream on the right. The prominent voices in this movement yearn for an earlier time, when men were men and women were women. Sometimes that time seems to be the 1950s, like when Tucker Carlson extols a world where men go to work and women stay at home. But sometimes it goes way farther back. The pastor Doug Wilson advocates household voting, in which men vote for their wives. And Costin Vlad Alamariu, better known as Bronze Age Pervert, harks back to the Bronze Age — specifically the ancient Hittite and Mitanni Empires. Helen Lewis wrote a recent cover story for The Atlantic about this new antifeminist backlash, which she calls “the single most important force holding together the American right.” So I wanted to have her on the show to talk about these ideas, the political program of this movement and how seriously we should take it. Lewis is a staff writer at The Atlantic and the author of “Difficult Women: A History of Feminism in 11 Fights” and “The Genius Myth.” This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: Difficult Women [https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/438129/difficult-women-by-helen-lewis/9781784709730] by Helen Lewis “What Is the Longhouse? [https://firstthings.com/what-is-the-longhouse/]” by L0m3z The Last Men by Charles [https://www.skyhorsepublishing.com/9781510786783/the-last-men/] Cornish-Dale Bronze Age Mindset [https://a.co/d/0a6BEhiV] by Bronze Age Pervert The End of History and the Last Man [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-End-of-History-and-the-Last-Man/Francis-Fukuyama/9780743284554] by Francis Fukuyama “The Men — and Boys — Are Not Alright [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/10/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-richard-reeves.html?]” with Richard Reeves, The Ezra Klein Show “Did Liberal Feminism Ruin the Workplace? [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/06/opinion/women-workplace-feminism-conservative.html]” with Helen Andrews and Leah Libresco Sargeant, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat “The Great Feminization [https://www.compactmag.com/article/the-great-feminization/]” by Helen Andrews “The Women Leaving the New Right [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/young-women-leaving-maga-new-right.html]” by Sam Adler-Bell Book Recommendations: Christie Malry’s Own Double-Entry [https://www.ndbooks.com/book/christie-malrys-own-double-entry/] by B.S. Johnson Madame de Pompadour [https://www.nyrb.com/products/madame-de-pompadour] by Nancy Mitford The Genius Factory [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/131876/the-genius-factory-by-david-plotz/] by David Plotz Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Julie Beer. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Johnny Simon. Our recording engineer is Kyle Grandillo. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Shows is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Ian Bremmer on the Risks America Poses to the World

Over the past month, there have been two dominant stories in American foreign policy. One, of course, is the war with Iran. The other is the much-anticipated summit between President Trump and Xi Jinping of China. And I think if you look closely at both of these stories, you see that our foreign policy has entered into a period of absolute incoherence. I’m not even sure what the status of the Iran war is at this point. What is Trump trying to achieve? What is he willing to accept? Taking a more hawkish approach to China has been a core and consistent principle of Trump’s since his first term. He’s been insistent that China has taken advantage of the United States and that America needed to change that dynamic and flex more power. But is that happening? Is that even Trump’s position anymore? So I wanted to do an episode looking at China and Iran and trying to assess Trump’s foreign policy in general and the ways he’s remaking what America means on the world stage. Ian Bremmer is the president and founder of Eurasia Group, a political risk research and consultancy firm, and the global affairs publication GZero. He’s also the author of, among other books, “Every Nation for Itself: What Happens When No One Leads the World.” Mentioned: Bowling Alone [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Bowling-Alone-Revised-and-Updated/Robert-D-Putnam/9781982130848] by Robert D. Putnam The J Curve [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-J-Curve/Ian-Bremmer/9780743274722] by Ian Bremmer “The ‘Vibecession’ Is Over. The ‘Permacession’ Is Here. [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/05/americans-depressed-economy/687278/]” by Annie Lowrey “Disney and the Decline of America’s Middle Class [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/28/opinion/disney-world-economy-middle-class-rich.html]” by Daniel Currell Eurasia Group’s Top Risks for 2026 [https://www.eurasiagroup.net/issues/top-risks-2026] Book Recommendations: The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy [https://www.penguinrandomhouseretail.com/book/?isbn=9780345391803] by Douglas Adams A World Appears [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/646644/a-world-appears-by-michael-pollan/] by Michael Pollan The Chronoliths [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780765325280/thechronoliths/] by Robert Charles Wilson Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Julie Beer. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Johnny Simon and Isaac Jones. Our recording engineer is Johnny Simon. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Shows is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Does Trump Want to Lose the Midterms?

President Trump doesn’t seem to care that much about winning the midterms. He’s more unpopular at this point in his second term than basically any of his modern predecessors. Democrats seem poised to retake the House and have a real chance of retaking the Senate. You might expect a president in that position to pivot to the center, to focus on voters’ top concerns and try to boost the strongest Republicans in key races. Trump isn’t doing any of that. Instead, he announced a $1.8 billion slush fund to pay out “victims of lawfare,” he threatened to re-escalate the Iran war, and he intervened in Republican primaries in ways that are gifts to Democrats, like endorsing the scandal-plagued Ken Paxton over the incumbent, John Cornyn, in Texas’ Senate race. Why doesn’t Trump seem to care more about winning? Liam Donovan is a Republican strategist and a president at Targeted Victory, a Washington public affairs and digital marketing firm. He has worked on the National Republican Senatorial Committee and for Cornyn. In this conversation, we discuss the moves Trump is making, the rough political environment for Republicans and what the paths to Democratic victories look like. Mentioned: “Graham Platner Thinks a Political Revolution Is Coming [https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/16/magazine/graham-platner-interview.html]” by The Interview Thomas Massie interview in The Washington Examiner [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/1881868/rep-massies-theory-voters-who-voted-for-libertarians-and-then-trump-were-always-just-seeking-the-craziest-son-of-a-bitch-in-the-race/] Book Recommendations: The Right [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/matthew-continetti/the-right/9781541600522/?lens=basic-books] by Matthew Continetti Apple in China [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Apple-in-China/Patrick-McGee/9781668053386] by Patrick McGee The Frackers [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/314332/the-frackers-by-gregory-zuckerman/] by Gregory Zuckerman Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Julie Beer and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our recording engineer is Johnny Simon. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Shows is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Yuval Noah Harari on Donald Trump’s Core Delusion

What are the conditions that enable a country to become great — or great again? The Trump administration — and other right-wing movements in other countries — offers a vision of greatness based on power and domination abroad, and a mix of shared national and religious stories at home. And that vision is clearly appealing to a lot of people. Liberals in the U.S. and elsewhere have been struggling to tell a story that can compete. What story would Yuval Noah Harari tell? One of the through lines of Harari’s best-selling books — “Sapiens,” “Homo Deus,” “Nexus” — is the huge role that stories play in shaping the arc of history, driving humans to cooperate on a grand scale to achieve great things, or divide violently against one another. So I wanted to ask him about the stories that the U.S. and Israel, in particular, seem to have embraced right now. What does history tell us about the power of this story? And why does the liberal story seem so weak right now? Mentioned: Sapiens [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/sapiens-yuval-noah-harari?variant=32207215689762] by Yuval Noah Harari Homo Deus [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/homo-deus-yuval-noah-harari?variant=32220273573922] by Yuval Noah Harari Unstoppable Us, Volume 3 [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/787049/unstoppable-us-volume-3-how-enemies-become-friends-by-yuval-noah-harari-illustrated-by-ricard-zaplana-ruiz/] by Yuval Noah Harari “Understanding AI [https://www.understandingai.org/]” by Timothy B. Lee Book Recommendations: The MANIAC [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/725022/the-maniac-by-benjamin-labatut/] by Benjamin Labatut Chimpanzee Politics [https://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title/9383/chimpanzee-politics?srsltid=AfmBOopldU1GWIFMVNjf00h_Fy6vpHWtJbi5ZBhJwjUrIUGeP_kJUINy] by Frans de Waal Brave New World [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/brave-new-world-aldous-huxley?variant=33051834777634] by Aldous Huxley Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Julie Beer. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Johnny Simon. Our recording engineer is Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.