The Ezra Klein Show

Yuval Noah Harari on Donald Trump’s Core Delusion

What are the conditions that enable a country to become great — or great again? The Trump administration — and other right-wing movements in other countries — offers a vision of greatness based on power and domination abroad, and a mix of shared national and religious stories at home. And that vision is clearly appealing to a lot of people. Liberals in the U.S. and elsewhere have been struggling to tell a story that can compete. What story would Yuval Noah Harari tell? One of the through lines of Harari’s best-selling books — “Sapiens,” “Homo Deus,” “Nexus” — is the huge role that stories play in shaping the arc of history, driving humans to cooperate on a grand scale to achieve great things, or divide violently against one another. So I wanted to ask him about the stories that the U.S. and Israel, in particular, seem to have embraced right now. What does history tell us about the power of this story? And why does the liberal story seem so weak right now? Mentioned: Sapiens [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/sapiens-yuval-noah-harari?variant=32207215689762] by Yuval Noah Harari Homo Deus [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/homo-deus-yuval-noah-harari?variant=32220273573922] by Yuval Noah Harari Unstoppable Us, Volume 3 [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/787049/unstoppable-us-volume-3-how-enemies-become-friends-by-yuval-noah-harari-illustrated-by-ricard-zaplana-ruiz/] by Yuval Noah Harari “Understanding AI [https://www.understandingai.org/]” by Timothy B. Lee Book Recommendations: The MANIAC [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/725022/the-maniac-by-benjamin-labatut/] by Benjamin Labatut Chimpanzee Politics [https://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title/9383/chimpanzee-politics?srsltid=AfmBOopldU1GWIFMVNjf00h_Fy6vpHWtJbi5ZBhJwjUrIUGeP_kJUINy] by Frans de Waal Brave New World [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/brave-new-world-aldous-huxley?variant=33051834777634] by Aldous Huxley Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Julie Beer. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Johnny Simon. Our recording engineer is Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Is It Time to Break the Two-Party System?

We have entered a world of maximum gerrymandering warfare. Any guardrails that once existed, from the Constitution or the courts, have been bulldozed over the last decade – most recently in the Supreme Court decision that gutted the Voting Rights Act and made it harder for minorities to challenge racially discriminatory voting maps. Red and blue states alike have been aggressively trying to redraw their congressional maps in response to all these developments. And there is no sign that will end in 2028; legislatures will just continue trying to tweak their lines to squeeze out advantage for whatever party is in power. And competitive districts in this country – already an endangered species – now teeter on extinction. That is, unless something dramatic changes. Lee Drutman is a senior fellow in the political reform program at New America. He’s one of the most persistent and thoughtful advocates of selecting House members through proportional representation – a system used in many other countries that would make gerrymandering much more difficult. He’s the author of the 2020 book “Breaking the Two-Party Doom Loop: The Case for Multiparty Democracy in America” and writes the newsletter Undercurrent Events. Mentioned: Breaking the Two-Party Doom Loop [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/breaking-the-two-party-doom-loop-9780190913854?cc=us&lang=en&] by Lee Drutman “Undercurrent Events [https://leedrutman.substack.com/]” by Lee Drutman Why We’re Polarized [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Why-Were-Polarized/Ezra-Klein/9781476700366] by Ezra Klein “How one country stopped a Trump-style authoritarian in his tracks [https://www.vox.com/politics/479290/brazil-democracy-trump-bolsonaro-multiparty]” by Zack Beauchamp Book Recommendations: Tyranny of the Majority [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Tyranny-of-the-Majority/Lani-Guinier/9780029131695?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23828385326&gbraid=0AAAAADv-uElzMH6ggmyMpKbHcnbeYMhTn&gclid=CjwKCAjw8arQBhB9EiwAfIKdQotiDYMfAoJ6BqZswflCB62wy8usj5ugS729MbzF-fYEv1Wxdey-eRoC59kQAvD_BwE] by Lani Guinier American Politics [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674030213] by Samuel P. Huntington The Recognitions [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/645938/the-recognitions-by-william-gaddis-introduction-by-tom-mccarthy-afterword-by-william-h-gass/] by William Gaddis Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair, Julie Beer and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our recording engineer is Johnny Simon. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This Is Why I Find Pema Chödrön So Essential

What do you do when you feel anxious or insecure? Many of us try to push the feeling away, or we ruminate on it, or try to solve it, or avoid the thought altogether. But what would happen if we did the exact opposite? The Buddhist nun and teacher Pema Chödrön is the author of many beloved books, including “When Things Fall Apart,” “Welcoming the Unwelcome” and — my personal favorite — “Comfortable With Uncertainty.” And she has a way of inviting people to befriend the parts of life that typically induce dread — from uncertainty and suffering to loss and discomfort. And she argues that the process of sitting with these experiences and emotions actually releases their power over us. In a time as chaotic and tumultuous as ours, she has so much practical wisdom to share. In this conversation, she shares what it looks like to actually let go of difficult emotions, the art of “collaborating with reality” when things don’t go as expected, and how to awaken yourself to the “nowness” of life. Mentioned: Comfortable with Uncertainty [https://www.shambhala.com/comfortable-with-uncertainty-15045.html?srsltid=AfmBOoq-ehwqX_Ig4fXABfWX2YtRVTSyEJJSS47_uc8VMoF0wV2hCU9u] by Pema Chödrön When Things Fall Apart [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/642782/when-things-fall-apart-by-pema-chodron/] by Pema Chödrön Welcoming the Unwelcome [https://www.shambhala.com/welcoming-the-unwelcome-9781611805659.html?srsltid=AfmBOopKxp3WWgF2QieaTjeWW9Zc2Drz7qcS-9yZ8rRtSOgwRCadzyeG] by Pema Chödrön Another Kind of Freedom [https://www.shambhala.com/another-kind-of-freedom.html?srsltid=AfmBOopD9vASHPjpTdOXJNBbQVtUNxAJhuR16uAPJ1kQsGfGD4PVkKQK] by Pema Chödrön Book Recommendations: Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior [https://www.shambhala.com/shambhala-the-sacred-path-of-the-warrior.html?srsltid=AfmBOoqAeCquDDyujYJZbKPu4GdIWjwU0e__hHY9FcV_V_VGJjcrjTWw] by Chögyam Trungpa Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind [https://www.shambhala.com/zen-mind-beginner-s-mind-1796.html?srsltid=AfmBOooXaILfbvl2Lohhtxdo2pX2jm0UoQms8tn7yUx33ZsBQ5YZUq1b] by Shunryu Suzuki Enlightened Vagabond [https://www.shambhala.com/enlightened-vagabond-9781611803303.html?srsltid=AfmBOoq6XJZDLLcp399GW53l09-RVneoAojBnpZ86lJXiJbpkaq0vs4U] by Matthieu Ricard Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Kim Freda. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Johnny Simon. Our recording engineer is Johnny Simon. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Diane Wong, Dan Powell and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I Have Some Questions for the Democrats Who Want to Run California

On Friday, I moderated a forum with the top Democratic candidates for California governor, focusing on the state’s housing crisis. California’s current governor, Gavin Newsom, came into office in 2019 promising to build millions of homes. And in the years since, dozens of pro-housing laws have passed, designed to cut red tape and spur more construction. And yet the number of homes being built in California is basically the same as when he took office, and the state’s housing crisis remains, arguably, the worst in the country. So I wanted to know what the next governor would do about it. We taped this at the Calvin Simmons Theater in Oakland, Calif. The candidates on the stage were Xavier Becerra, a former attorney general of California and health and human services secretary under President Joe Biden; Matt Mahan, the mayor of San Jose and a tech entrepreneur; Katie Porter, a former U.S. representative; Tom Steyer, a former San Francisco hedge fund manager, a climate activist and a philanthropist; and Antonio Villaraigosa, a former mayor of Los Angeles and speaker of the California State Assembly. This panel was recorded live. The Times did not fact-check candidates’ remarks. Mentioned: “Cost to Build Multifamily Housing in California More Than Twice as High as in Texas [https://www.rand.org/news/press/2025/04/cost-to-build-multifamily-housing-in-california-more.html]” by RAND “What Worries Me Most About ‘Abundance’ [https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/28/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-thompson-dunkelman.html]” with Derek Thompson and Marc Dunkelman, The Ezra Klein Show Book Recommendations: The Hour of the Predator [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/808353/the-hour-of-the-predator-by-giuliano-da-empoli/] by Giuliano da Empoli Rain of Gold [https://artepublicopress.com/product/rain-of-gold/] by Victor Villaseñor Yesteryear [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/780686/yesteryear-a-gma-book-club-pick-by-caro-claire-burke/] by Caro Claire Burke Why Nothing Works [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/marc-j-dunkelman/why-nothing-works/9781541700215/] by Marc J. Dunkelman Ours Was the Shining Future [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/217260/ours-was-the-shining-future-by-david-leonhardt/] by David Leonhardt Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu, Marie Cascione, Kristin Lin and Marina King. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our recording engineer is Johnny Simon. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Shows is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Argus HD. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

GLP-1s and the ‘Wild West’ of Wellness

Here’s a shocking number: One out of eight American adults is taking a GLP-1, like Ozempic or Zepbound, according to a KFF poll. GLP-1s are the biggest pharmaceutical story since antidepressants. But there’s still so much we don’t know. “We’re only at the beginning of what’s been called this Ozempic era,” the journalist Julia Belluz told me. “I think we’re really just at the beginning of discovering the benefits and the harms of these drugs.” These discoveries begin in the research but are also expanding into how we think about our punishing beauty standards and the blurry lines between illness and wellness. Belluz is a contributing Opinion writer and the author, with Kevin Hall, of “Food Intelligence [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/671334/food-intelligence-by-julia-belluz-and-kevin-hall-phd/].” She’s one of the best health and science reporters I know and has been reporting on GLP-1s [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/04/15/opinion/glp1-health-effects.html] for years. In this conversation, Belluz takes me through what we know — and don’t know — about GLP-1s, their unexpected uses, how they are clashing with a culture obsessed with thinness and looksmaxxing, and whether everyone should be on them. Mentioned: “The obesity pay gap is worse than previously thought [https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2023/11/23/the-obesity-pay-gap-is-worse-than-previously-thought]” by The Economist “The Great Ozempic Experimen [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/04/15/opinion/glp1-health-effects.html]t” by Julia Belluz Book Recommendations: Behave [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/311787/behave-by-robert-m-sapolsky/] by Robert M. Sapolsky The Poison Squad [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/312067/the-poison-squad-by-deborah-blum/] by Deborah Blum Ultra-Processed People [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/744755/ultra-processed-people-by-chris-van-tulleken/] by Chris van Tulleken Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Julie Beer. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Johnny Simon. Our recording engineer is Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Transcript editing by Sarah Murphy and Marlaine Glicksman. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com [https://pcm.adswizz.com] for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.