The Ezra Klein Show

Venezuela, Renee Good and Trump’s ‘Assault on Hope’

The shocking events of January have sent a message: America works differently now.  M. Gessen is a Times Opinion columnist and the author of books about living under autocracy, including the National Book Award-winning “The Future Is History.” They have been a clear, relentless and perceptive voice on what it means and what it is like to live in a country that is turning into a different kind of regime. And they wrote an essay on the seizure of the president of Venezuela, calling it “a blow — quite likely fatal — to the new world order of law, justice and human rights that was heralded in the wake of World War II.”  Mentioned: “329 Days of Trump [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/12/20/business/media/trump-media-year-in-review-2025.html]” by Michael M. Grynbaum and Stuart A. Thompson “Two Middle East Negotiators Assess Trump’s Israel-Hamas Deal [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/21/opinion/jd-vance-pope-trump-immigration.html]” by Ezra Klein The Future Is History [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/318687/the-future-is-history-national-book-award-winner-by-masha-gessen/] by M. Gessen Book Recommendations: Tomorrow Is Yesterday [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374617127/tomorrowisyesterday/] by Hussein Agha and Robert Malley One Day, Everyone Will Have Always Been Against This [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/777485/one-day-everyone-will-have-always-been-against-this-national-book-award-by-omar-el-akkad/] by Omar El Akkad The Hill [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374614546/thehill/] by Harriet Clark Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin and Marie Cascione. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

What Trump Wants in Venezuela

What is America doing in Venezuela? On Jan. 3, the Trump administration launched an operation that ended with the capture of President Nicolás Maduro, who is now in New York City on narcoterrorism and weapons charges. “We’re going to run it, essentially, until such time as a proper transition can take place,” Trump said. Mr. Trump’s policy here is strange for a number of reasons: The U.S. is suffering from a fentanyl crisis, but Venezuela is not known as a fentanyl producer. Venezuela’s oil reserves are not the path to geopolitical power that they might have been in the 1970s. Mr. Maduro was a brutal and corrupt dictator, but Mr. Trump has left his No. 2 in charge. And Mr. Trump ran for office promising fewer foreign entanglements — not more. So why Venezuela, and why now? That’s the question we look at in this conversation. Jonathan Blitzer is a staff writer at The New Yorker. He has profiled Stephen Miller and has been following the U.S. military’s drug boat strikes in the Caribbean, as well as the Trump administration’s evolving agenda in Latin America. He’s also the author of the book “Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, and the Making of a Crisis. Mentioned: Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/625425/everyone-who-is-gone-is-here-by-jonathan-blitzer/] by Jonathan Blitzer Alien Enemies Act [https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/chapter3&edition=prelim] 1979/1980 Refugee Act [https://www.congress.gov/bill/96th-congress/senate-bill/643] Monroe Doctrine [https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/monroe-doctrine] “How Stephen Miller Manipulates Donald Trump to Further His Immigration Obsession [https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/03/02/how-stephen-miller-manipulates-donald-trump-to-further-his-immigration-obsession]” by Jonathan Blitzer “Who’s Running Venezuela After the Fall of Maduro? [https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/whos-running-venezuela-after-the-fall-of-maduro]” by Jonathan Blitzer Book Recommendations: The Known World [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-known-world-edward-p-jones?variant=32131751903266] by Edward P. Jones What You Have Heard Is True [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/586566/what-you-have-heard-is-true-by-carolyn-forche/] by Carolyn Forché The Spy and the Traitor [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/253399/the-spy-and-the-traitor-by-ben-macintyre/] by Ben Macintyre Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

This Question Can Change Your Life

I like to start the year with a few episodes on things I’m personally working on. Not resolutions, exactly. More like intentions. Or, even better, practices. One of those practices, strange as it sounds, is repeatedly asking the question: “What is this?” It’s a question I got from a book of the same name, by Stephen and Martine Batchelor. In that book, they are describing an approach to Buddhist meditation built on the cultivation of doubt and wonder. You can see that as a spiritual practice, but it’s also an intellectual and ethical one. It is, for me, a practice that has a lot of bearing on politics and journalism. Stephen Batchelor’s latest book, “Buddha, Socrates, and Us: Ethical Living in Uncertain Times,” explores those dimensions of doubt more fully. And so I wanted to have him on the show to discuss the virtues of both certainty and uncertainty, the difficulty of living both ethically and openly. You can see this as a conversation about our inner lives or our outer lives, but of course they are one. And Batchelor, as you’ll hear, is just lovely to listen to. Mentioned: Buddha, Socrates, and Us [https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300275490/buddha-socrates-and-us/] by Stephen Batchelor What Is This? [https://www.amazon.com/What-this-Ancient-questions-modern/dp/0473474972] by Martine Batchelor and Stephen Batchelor Ethics of Care [https://ethicsofcare.org/carol-gilligan/] by Carol Gilligan Book Recommendations: Children of a Modest Star [https://www.sup.org/books/politics/children-modest-star] by Jonathan S. Blake and Nils Gilman Work Like a Monk [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/806906/work-like-a-monk-by-shoukei-matsumoto/] by Shoukei Matsumoto The Second Body [https://fitzcarraldoeditions.com/books/the-second-body/] by Daisy Hildyard Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

‘This Is Something That Traditional Economics Isn’t Prepared to Deal With’

This is the strangest economy I’ve seen in my lifetime. If you just looked at the macro data — the jobs numbers, G.D.P., the stock market — things look pretty normal. But they clearly aren’t normal. The Trump administration spent the year upending the global trade system while tech companies spent hundreds of billions of dollars on A.I., a technology that could potentially displace many of our jobs. And people don’t feel normal, either. Survey data shows that the vibecession rages on. Tracy Alloway and Joe Weisenthal are the co-hosts of the excellent economics podcast “Odd Lots” and have closely followed all the chaos this year. So I wanted to have them on the show to explain what the hell is going on. Mentioned: Charts [https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ggzkfl1lu5e1f2nwpkhrn/The-Ezra-Klein-Show-Alloway_Weisenthal-Episode-Charts.pdf?rlkey=9g3anyu3ykofa6s67u2pbbdh5&e=1&st=9g7bkvge&dl=0] Odd Lots [https://open.spotify.com/show/1te7oSFyRVekxMBJUSethH?si=9ebc33d7c629488d] The Three-Body Problem [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780765382030/thethreebodyproblem/] by Cixin Liu “The Vibecession: The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy [https://kyla.substack.com/p/the-vibecession-the-self-fulfilling]” by Kyla Scanlon “Everyone is Gambling and No One is Happy [https://kyla.substack.com/p/everyone-is-gambling-and-no-one-is]” by Kyla Scanlon Book Recommendations: Breakneck [https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324106036] by Dan Wang North Woods [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/726262/north-woods-by-daniel-mason/] by Daniel Mason A Marriage at Sea [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/771662/a-marriage-at-sea-by-sophie-elmhirst/] by Sophie Elmhirst The Digital Reversal [https://human-as-media.com/book-the-digital-reversal/] by Andrey Mir Orality and Literacy [https://www.routledge.com/Orality-and-Literacy-30th-Anniversary-Edition/Ong/p/book/9780415538381] by Walter J. Ong No Sense of Place [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/no-sense-of-place-9780195042313?cc=us&lang=en&] by Joshua Meyrowitz Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Annika Robbins, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Kimberly Clausing, Natasha Sarin and Kyla Scanlon. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The Opinions: Bernie Sanders and Ruben Gallego

What will America’s story be after President Trump? My colleague David Leonhardt did a great series on that question this year, talking to a number of leading politicians. I thought two of those episodes, with Senator Bernie Sanders and with Senator Ruben Gallego, would be of particular interest to you. And they’re great to listen to as a pair. Sanders and Gallego have strong views about where the Democratic Party went wrong and how it can win back working-class voters in particular — views that have a lot of overlap but also some interesting shades of difference. So I wanted to share both conversations. You can learn more about our sister show “The Opinions” here [https://www.nytimes.com/column/the-opinions]— and subscribe wherever you find your podcasts. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.