The Ezra Klein Show

Best Of: Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones

This is one of my favorite conversations in recent memory — with the writer Zadie Smith.  Smith is the author of novels, including “White Teeth,” “On Beauty” and “NW,” as well as many essays and short stories. Her ability to give language to the kinds of quiet battles that live inside of ourselves is part of why she’s been one of my favorite writers for years. “We absolutely need to gather in our identity groups sometimes for our freedoms, for our civil rights. There’s absolutely no doubt about that. But for that role to be the thing that is you existentially all the way down — that is something that I personally believe all human beings revolt from at some level,” she told me when we spoke last September, shortly before  Trump’s re-election. It’s ideas like these that I found interesting to revisit now, in a starkly different political climate. In this conversation, we discuss Smith’s novel, “The Fraud [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/568108/the-fraud-by-zadie-smith/],” which Smith wrote with Trump and populism front of mind; what populism is really channeling; why Smith refuses the “bait” of wokeness; how people have been “modified” by smartphones and social media; and more. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: Feel Free [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/317074/feel-free-by-zadie-smith/] by Zadie Smith “Fascinated to Presume: In Defense of Fiction [https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/10/24/zadie-smith-in-defense-of-fiction/]” by Zadie Smith Amusing Ourselves [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/297276/amusing-ourselves-to-death-by-neil-postman/] to Death by Neil Postman “Generation Why? [https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2010/11/25/generation-why/]” by Zadie Smith Book Recommendations: The Director [https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-director/daniel-kehlmann/ross-benjamin/9781529435115] by Daniel Kehlmann The Rebel’s Clinic [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374176426/therebelsclinic] by Adam Shatz The Diaries of Virginia Woolf [https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Diary_of_Virginia_Woolf_1915_1919/YShKK-fgvNsC?hl=en] Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The Contradictions of Gavin Newsom

Gavin Newsom is the 2028 Democratic front-runner. That’s what many of the polls and the Polymarket betting odds say. It’s been widely believed that Newsom wants to run for president someday. But belief that he could be a front-runner was less common. A liberal white guy from a state that much of the country considers badly governed just didn’t seem like the profile the Democratic Party was looking for. But as a Californian who has watched Newsom for a long time, I was surprised by him this year. After President Trump returned to the White House, Newsom started a podcast, interviewing people like Charlie Kirk, Steve Bannon and Michael Savage, which made a lot of Democrats mad. At the same time, Newsom turned himself into the leader of the resistance — trolling Trump on social media and pushing a ballot initiative to end California’s independent redistricting to counter the partisan redistricting effort in Texas. Newsom has been willing to try things and take risks. He has shown a feel for this moment — in politics and in the way attention works now. But it’s still true that he runs a state that the country considers badly governed. California tops the rankings of unaffordable states, at a time when affordability has become a central electoral issue. In this conversation, I ask Newsom about all of this — what he learned this year from talking to figures on the right, how he thinks the Democratic Party can win back voters it lost, why California is so unaffordable and what he’s doing about it. Mentioned: Applebee’s America [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Applebees-America/Ron-Fournier/9780743287197] by Ron Fournier, Douglas B. Sosnik and Matthew J. Dowd “And, This Is Charlie Kirk [https://open.spotify.com/episode/2yQ8yoMrv2MBLM6tDCUwfv?si=Y622ZZgpSy6CED9GtQJCJQ]” “And, This Is Gaming Culture & Gen-Z Nihilism With Content Creator Brandon “Atrioc” Ewing [https://open.spotify.com/episode/7lh3bUDMHQxWKtzLdvzDOz?si=PsCFGG_iS9ebi1OZp_tQpQ]” “And, This Is Michael Savage [https://open.spotify.com/episode/5gdUJRsLc28MkZkIbPuE6O?si=AC4Ayi3kTBGQ9SIOzC8tWA]” “And, This Is Steve Bannon [https://open.spotify.com/episode/4Qy916gMZ2R1eFZa3TM1A9?si=dKKTNk6dRxiq2MCzBlIk3A]” “Newsom Says Trump’s Attacks Are ‘Not Normal’ [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/04/podcasts/gavin-newsom-dealbook-summit-2025.html]” “Barack Obama 2004 Democratic National Convention Keynote Speech [https://www.c-span.org/program/american-history-tv/barack-obama-2004-democratic-national-convention-keynote-speech/193754]” Book Recommendations: Built to Last [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/built-to-last-jim-collinsjerry-i-porras?variant=32117226274850] by Jim Collins, Jerry I. Porras Meditations [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/6367/meditations-by-marcus-aurelius/] by Marcus Aurelius 1929 [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/665634/1929-by-andrew-ross-sorkin/] by Andrew Ross Sorkin Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

What I Learned in 2025

I answer your questions on the year’s political lessons, the struggles of young men and handling heat on the show. The end-of-year Ask Me Anything episode has become a tradition on the show. So as 2025 comes to a close, I’m joined by Claire Gordon, the show’s executive producer, to answer your questions about an eventful year — how my thinking on the Trump administration has evolved, how well the Democratic Party has played its chips, what I think it means to be a Democrat right now, whether “Abundance” is centrist, how politicians might address adriftness of young people, how I’ve handled the criticism the show has received and how many packets of Splenda I consume in a day. Note: This conversation was recorded on Tuesday, Dec. 2, and does not reflect more recent developments in Congress’s review of the Sept. 2 boat attack. Mentioned: “Don’t Believe Him [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/02/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-trump-column-read.html]” by Ezra Klein “The Supreme Court Is Backing Trump’s Power Grab [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/02/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-kate-shaw.html]” by Ezra Klein “What if Trump Just Ignores the Courts? [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/11/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-quinta-jurecic.html]” by Ezra Klein “The Republican Party’s NPC Problem — and Ours [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-congress-audio-essay.html]” by Ezra Klein “Abundance and the Left [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/29/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-saikat-chakrabarti-zephyr-teachout.html]" by Ezra Klein “The Emergency Is Here [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/17/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-asha-rangappa.html]” by Ezra Klein “Stop Acting Like This Is Normal [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/07/opinion/trump-senate-democrats-shutdown.html]” by Ezra Klein “What Were Democrats Thinking? [https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000010515510/what-were-democrats-thinking.html]” by Ezra Klein “The Goon Squad [https://harpers.org/archive/2025/11/the-goon-squad-daniel-kolitz-porn-masturbation-loneliness/]” by Daniel Kolitz Dragonriders of Pern Series [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/PN2/dragonriders-of-pern/] by Anne McCaffrey and Todd J. McCaffrey Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon, Kristin Lin and Marie Cascione. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Carole Sabouraud and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Transcript editing by Andrea Gutierrez, Sarah Murphy and Marlaine Glicksman. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Interesting Times: She Exposed Epstein and Shares MAGA’s Anger

My colleague Ross Douthat talks to the journalist who exposed Jeffrey Epstein.  This episode of “Interesting Times,” with the Miami Herald investigative journalist Julie K. Brown, came out back in July. But since Epstein has very much stayed in the news, I wanted to share it now. The conversation is such a fascinating and helpful explainer of the whole case, and the questions that remain unanswered — with the woman whose reporting led to Epstein’s re-arrest.   If you haven’t had a chance to check out “Interesting Times” this year, you really should. The team has produced so many great episodes, especially with leading thinkers and activists on the right. You can find them on the NYT Audio app [https://apps.apple.com/us/app/nyt-audio/id1549293936], Apple [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/interesting-times-with-ross-douthat/id1438024613], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/6bmhSFLKtApYClEuSH8q42?si=85c0f85203c94835], Amazon Music [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/b42495b5-3d35-424f-8dcb-2b402b49f9ea/interesting-times-with-ross-douthat], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@InterestingTimesNYT], iHeartRadio [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/326-interesting-times-with-ros-29972437/#:~:text=Introducing%20'Interesting%20Times'&text=%E2%80%9CInteresting%20Times%20With%20Ross%20Douthat,the%20future%20of%20democrac...]or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Best Of: The ‘Quiet Catastrophe’ Brewing in Our Social Lives

The holidays are an unusually social time, filled with parties and family get-togethers. But for most of the year, we feel isolated and unsatisfied with our social lives. Our society isn’t structured to support connection year-round. So it’s an apt time to re-air this episode — a conversation with the writer Sheila Liming about rediscovering the lost art of hanging out. Liming is an associate professor of professional writing at Champlain College and the author of “Hanging Out: The Radical Power of Killing Time [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/717263/hanging-out-by-sheila-liming/].” In the book, Liming investigates the troubling fact that we’ve grown much less likely to simply spend time together outside our partnerships, workplaces and family units. What would it look like to reconfigure our world to make social connection easier for all of us? I spoke to Liming in April 2023. But I find that this conversation provides a clearer sense of what’s gone wrong in our social lives — and how to make “hanging out” with others more fulfilling. Note: We're still gathering questions for an upcoming "Ask Me Anything" episode we'd like to record. If you have any questions for Ezra, please email ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com using the subject line "AMA." Mentioned: “You’d Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don’t You? [https://annehelen.substack.com/p/youd-be-happier-living-closer-to]” by Anne Helen Petersen “The Nuclear Family Was a Mistake [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-nuclear-family-was-a-mistake/605536/]” by David Brooks Full Surrogacy Now [https://www.versobooks.com/products/711-full-surrogacy-now] by Sophie Lewis Regarding the Pain of Others [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780312422196/regardingthepainofothers] by Susan Sontag Letters from Tove [https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/letters-from-tove] by Tove Jansson Book Recommendations: Black Paper [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/B/bo119247871.html] by Teju Cole On the Inconvenience of Other People [https://www.dukeupress.edu/on-the-inconvenience-of-other-people] by Lauren Berlant The Hare [https://twodollarradio.com/products/hare] by Melanie Finn Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, with Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Kristina Samulewski. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.