The Ezra Klein Show

Patti Smith on the One Desire That Lasts Forever

Patti Smith, “the Godmother of Punk,” has lived a wild life and accumulated so much wisdom in the process. In the 1960s and ’70s, Smith was a fixture of the New York City creative scene — hanging out with the likes of Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin, Allen Ginsberg and Robert Mapplethorpe. Merging her own poetry with an ace backing band, she became a global rock star. Then she gave it up, moved to Michigan, raised a family, and remade herself into a best-selling author. Her stunning memoir “Just Kids” won the National Book Award and is one of the books that I’ve kept returning to, again and again. There is clearly something unusual about Smith. People who know her have described her as “shamanistic.” But even for those of us who will never become rock stars, there’s something inspiring — and oddly relatable — in how she thinks about life. So I was excited to have the opportunity to sit down with her and learn more. Smith is out with a new memoir, “Bread of Angels,” and is on tour for the 50th anniversary of her breakthrough album, “Horses.” We talk about that book and that album and so much more: the boundless curiosity that drives her; the books that shaped her; her childhood communion with a snapping turtle; what Andy Warhol was like; what color she thinks the soul is; and a lot more that’s hard even to describe. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Pan’s Labyrinth” by Guillermo del Toro Grimm’s Complete Fairy Tales [https://www.canterburyclassicsbooks.com/books/grimms-complete-fairy-tales-9781607103134/] by Jacob Grimm and Wilhelm Grimm Bread of Angels [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/249084/bread-of-angels-by-patti-smith/] by Patti Smith Just Kids [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/just-kids-patti-smith?variant=40827485978658] by Patti Smith “The Dark Blot [https://www.best-poems.net/g-rard-de-nerval/the-dark-blot.html]” by Gérard de Nerval “Genie [https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/54559/genie]” by Arthur Rimbaud “Guernica [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Guernica-by-Picasso]” by Pablo Picasso “The Last Supper [https://www.themodern.org/exhibition/andy-warhol-last-decade]” by Andy Warhol Book Recommendations: The Adventures of Pinocchio [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/653027/the-adventures-of-pinocchio-by-carlo-collodi-translated-with-an-introduction-and-notes-by-john-hooper-and-annakraczyna/] by Carlo Collodi Frankenstein [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Frankenstein/Mary-Shelley/9780743487580] by Mary Shelley The Poetry of Sylvia Plath [https://cup.columbia.edu/book/the-poetry-of-sylvia-plath/9780231124263/] Edited by Claire Brennan 2666 [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780312429218/2666/] by Roberto Bolaño Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Annika Robbins. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Michelle Harris, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Caryn Rose and Annika Robbins. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes and the Right’s ‘Groyper’ Problem

Is this the future of MAGA? Tucker Carlson’s interview with the white nationalist influencer Nick Fuentes has caused a firestorm on the right. Carlson and Fuentes’s friendly chat about American Jews — whether they fit into this country or were loyal to Israel above all — was the kind of conversation that for decades would have been unimaginable among mainstream figures in politics. And by crossing that line, Carlson was making a statement — about the power of Fuentes’s movement and the future of MAGA. To help me think through this, I wanted to talk to the political writer John Ganz. He’s studied the roots of antisemitism on the right and has followed the evolution of MAGA closely. He’s behind the newsletter Unpopular Front and the author of “When the Clock Broke: Con Men, Conspiracists, and How America Cracked Up in the Early 1990s.” This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Unpopular Front [https://www.unpopularfront.news/]” by John Ganz “Finding Neverland [https://newrepublic.com/article/156368/finding-neverland-conservative-quest-rid-trumpism]” by John Ganz “Groyperfication [https://www.unpopularfront.news/p/who-will-win-the-gop-civil-war]” by John Ganz Book Recommendations: Taking America Back [https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300260977/taking-america-back/] by David Austin Walsh Furious Minds [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691255262/furious-minds?srsltid=AfmBOoqw3-gQvCfd-piWBwTyum7ugPlAakAFgsnumRK6g27RxT5WguV2] by Laura K. Field Prophets of Deceit [https://www.versobooks.com/products/936-prophets-of-deceit?srsltid=AfmBOorAF6_S9NTGGRSB0gMrS_6Hjfu8uX8pQ1qjxB-GrcUO-IpmvjWZ] by Norbert Guterman & Leo Lowenthal Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Ashley Braun. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

What Were Democrats Thinking?

Democrats’ case for the government shutdown was just starting to break through to voters. Why fold now? Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html  This column read was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Jack McCordick. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Marina King, Emma Kehlbeck and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The Blue Wave Cometh?

Democrats won big on Tuesday. It looks like the MAGA coalition has started to crack. Ezra is joined by his column editor, Aaron Retica, to discuss the big lessons for Democrats as they eye the midterms next year, and whether an anti-MAGA playbook is coming into focus. This episode contains strong language. NOTE: We're recording an "Ask Me Anything" episode soon. You can send your question to ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com [ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com] with the subject line "AMA." We'll consider any questions submitted on or before the morning of Monday November 11 at 10am ET. Mentioned: “This Is the Way You Beat Trump — and Trumpism [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/02/opinion/democrats-liberalism-elections-crick.html]” by Ezra Klein Ordinary Vices [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674641761] by Judith N. Shklar Marc Maron's podcast with Barack Obama [https://www.wtfpod.com/podcast/episode-1686-barack-obama] “Zohran’s Smile [https://the.ink/p/essay-zohrans-smile]” by Anand Ghiridharadas Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Marie Cascione. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

This Is How the Democratic Party Beats Trump

Democrats don’t just need to win more people; they also need to win more places. And that requires a different kind of thinking. Mentioned: "How Liberalism Wins [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/02/opinion/democrats-liberalism-elections-crick.html]" by Ezra Klein Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon, Marie Cascione and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Isaac Jones. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.