Jungian Perspectives: Conversations in Depth

Four: A Reflection on the Wholeness of Nature

What do quantum physics, sacred numbers, and the depths of the psyche have in common? More than you might think. In this episode of Jungian Perspectives: Conversations in Depth, host and Jungian analyst Molly Jordan sits down with Christophe Le Mouel, Ph.D. — quantum physicist, executive director of the C.G. Jung Institute of Los Angeles, and analyst-in-training in Zurich. His three-part series For a Reflection on the Wholeness of Nature, published in Psychological Perspectives, dares to ask what happens when rigorous science encounters the living reality of the soul. This is a conversation about numbers as more than quantities — as qualitative, even spiritual, phenomena. About the scientific revolution's forgotten mystical roots. About dreams, synchronicities, and the mystery of what endures beyond the physical. Molly brings warmth, candor, and her own delightful bewilderment to a dialogue that is as personal as it is profound. Come for the physics. Stay for the soul. CHRISTOPHE LE MOUËL, PH.D., trained as a mathematician and quantum physicist in France. Since 2008, he has served as the executive director of the C. G. Jung Institute in Los Angeles, where he lives with his wife and twin boys. He is co-editor-in-chief of the quarterly journal of Jungian thought, Psychological Perspectives, and a candidate in training at the Research and Training Centre for Depth Psychology according to C.G. Jung and Marie-Louise von Franz in Zürich. He is also the co-editor of Conversations with Marie-Louise von Franz on Synchronicity and Numbers: Insights and Amplifications (2025), published by Inner City Books. This episode is based on the following articles: Le Mouël, C. (201 1). Four: A Reflection on the Wholeness of Nature, Part I. Psychological Perspectives, 5 4( 2), 175– 196. https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2011.573390 [https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2011.573390] Le Mouël, C. (201 1). Four: A Reflection on the Wholeness of Nature, Part II. Psychological Perspectives, 5 4( 4), 453– 487. https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2011.623470 [https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2011.623470] Le Mouël, C. (2012). Four: A Reflection on the Wholeness of Nature, Part III. Psychological Perspectives, 55(2), 219–245. https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2012.677677 [https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2012.677677]

Outbreak: On Transgender Teens and Psychic Epidemics

In this thought-provoking episode of Jungian Perspectives: Conversations in Depth, host and analyst Dr. Barry Miller explores the urgent question of the rise of gender identity in young people with Lisa Marchiano—Jungian analyst, co-host of the wildly popular podcast This Jungian Life, and co-author of Dreamwise. Drawing on her two landmark articles in Psychological Perspectives, Marchiano reflects on how she first encountered the phenomenon of rapid-onset gender questioning in her clinical practice — and what it stirred in her as a depth psychologist. Far from dismissing the impulse to explore gender, she approaches it through a distinctly Jungian lens: as a potentially rich, symbolic encounter with the anima and animus — the contra-sexual dimensions Jung believed were essential to psychological wholeness. But what happens when that symbolic process gets concretized — rushed into irreversible medical intervention? And what role might social contagion, archetypal forces, and collective complexes be playing beneath the surface of a culture-wide phenomenon? This is a rare, nuanced, and deeply human conversation — one that holds complexity with care, inviting listeners to think more deeply about individuation, identity, and the unconscious forces shaping our collective moment. LISA MARCHIANO, LSCW, (USA), is a Jungian analyst and the author of Motherhood: Facing and Finding Yourself (Sounds True, 2021), The Vital Spark: Reclaim Your Outlaw Energies and Find Your Feminine Fire (Sounds True, 2024), and the coauthor of Dream Wise: Unlocking the Meaning of Your Dreams (Sounds True, 2024). She is the cohost of the popular depth psychology podcast This Jungian Life and is on the faculty of the C. G. Jung Institute of Philadelphia. Lisa is on the board of Therapy First [https://www.therapyfirst.org/], a nonprofit that advocates for a return to a psychological approach when treating gender questioning youth. This episode is based on the following articles: Marchiano, L. (2017). Outbreak: On Transgender Teens and Psychic Epidemics. Psychological Perspectives, 60(3), 345–366. https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2017.1350804 [https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2017.1350804] Marchiano, L. (2021). Transgender Children: The Making of a Modern Hysteria. Psychological Perspectives, 64(3), 346–359. https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2021.1959220 [https://doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2021.1959220]

Sacred Skies: UFOs and the Religious Function of the Psyche

In this captivating episode, host Thomas Elsner sits down with Elliott Morgan—stand-up comedian, actor, and PhD student in depth psychology at Pacifica Graduate Institute—to explore the psychological and spiritual dimensions of the UFO phenomenon. Drawing on Carl Jung's groundbreaking 1959 work Flying Saucers: A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Sky, their conversation delves into what Morgan calls "the enchantment around UFOs" and its profound implications for modern consciousness. As congressional hearings bring unprecedented credibility to reports of Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAPs), this discussion shifts focus from whether UFOs exist to examining what the phenomenon reveals about our collective psyche. Morgan argues that UFOs may represent a "newly dominant archetype" in the Western psyche—specifically, the trickster—blurring boundaries between material and immaterial, inner and outer, real and imagined. From synchronicities and shadow encounters to dreams of aliens and the breakdown of traditional meaning-making systems, this conversation explores how the UFO phenomenon might signal the emergence of a new god-image for a culture grappling with ecological crisis, technological acceleration, and the death of traditional religious forms. Is this "visionary rumor" pointing us toward a necessary transformation of consciousness at the end of an era? Join us for this mind-bending exploration of sacred skies, trickster energies, and the return of mystery in our modern world. Elliott Morgan is a comedian, content creator, and scholar of depth psychology currently pursuing his PhD at Pacifica Graduate Institute in Santa Barbara, California. He is one of the original members of the popular YouTube channel SourceFed and the founder of The Valleyfolk, a crowd-sourced comedy production company. He co-hosts The Fundamentalists podcast, along with Dr. Peter Rollins, which explores modern culture through the lenses of psychoanalytic theory, philosophy, and depth psychology. Based on Elliott Morgan's article "Sacred Skies: UFOs and the Religious Function of the Psyche" from Psychological Perspectives, Volume 66, Issue 3 (2023). [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00332925.2023.2276008] Timestamps 00:00 Introduction to Jungian Perspectives 02:08 Today’s Guest, Elliott Morgan 08:33 The UFO Phenomenon and Jung’s Flying Saucers 12:08 The UFO as a visionary rumor 18:43 The UFO as a Trickster Archetype 26:25 UFO Sightings 30:20 New God Image 33:02 Transformation brought on by revelation 38:26 UFOs in dreams 45:55 Projection and Psychological Dimensions 56:37 Outro to Jungian Perspectives

King Lear, Answer to Job: The Archetypes of Godhead

What if Shakespeare's darkest tragedy holds the key to understanding Western consciousness itself? In this riveting conversation, Shakespearean scholar and Jungian theorist James Driscoll reveals how King Lear and Jung's Answer to Job chart the same extraordinary journey—the transformation of the God-image from unconscious tyrant to suffering servant to defiant rebel. Through Lear's descent into madness and nothingness, we witness what Driscoll calls "the crucifixion of the ego," where pride strips away to reveal authentic self-knowledge and compassion. This episode explores how evil, suffering, and injustice paradoxically become instruments of consciousness itself. Driscoll argues that King Lear presents the four archetypes of the Western Godhead—Yahweh, Christ, Prometheus, and the feminine Sophia—more powerfully than any work in literature. From his background as an AIDS activist who fought pharmaceutical injustice to his profound readings of visionary art, Driscoll demonstrates why understanding things "feelingly" rather than merely intellectually is essential to wholeness. A challenging, profound meditation on how we discover truth about ourselves only by confronting our nothingness. Based on James Driscoll's article "King Lear, Answer to Job: The Archetypes of Godhead" from Psychological Perspectives, Volume 66, Issue 3 (2023). [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00332925.2023.2274784] James Driscoll has a PhD in English literature in Shakespeare. He has applied Jungian psychology to literature, philosophy, and social issues. His published books are: Identity in Shakespearean Drama (1983); The Unfolding God of Jung and Milton (1992); Shakespeare and Jung: The God in Time, (2019a); Shakespeare’s Identities (2019b); How AIDS Activists Challenged America (2021a); Jung’s Cartography of the Psyche (2020); The Devil and Dr. Fauci (2021b); Carl versus Karl: Jung and Marx, Two Icons for our Age (2022). He became prominent in the movement to speed FDA approval for AIDS and cancer drugs in the 1990s. His How AIDS Activists Challenged America reviews his career as an AIDS, LGBTQ, and FDA reform activist. Timestamps 00:01 Introduction to Jungian Perspectives 02:09 Today's guest, James Driscoll 07:40 Shakespeare as a visionary artist 12:59 A summary of King Lear 19:14 The Four Archetypes of the Western Judeo-Christian Godhead 29:06 The role of evil in the transformation process 33:49 The theme of “nothing” 40:41 Suffering and Madness 49:06 Our emotional need for justice within society 53:31 The Archetypal Patterns and Symbols behind Cordelia, Lear, and their Story 59:07 Outro to Jungian Perspectives