Phoenix Sound by Kel Myers

S2 EP2: Chronic Pain, MS and Women Empowering Women with Chrissy Symeonakis

Let’s talk about pain. Not the kind you can shake off with a paracetamol and a good night’s sleep, but the kind that burrows deep, rewires your life, and dares you to keep going. If you’re a woman, chances are you know this pain intimately. Studies show that over 30% of people worldwide live with chronic pain, but women bear the brunt - up to 34.6% of us report it, compared to 27.1% of men [1 [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31079836/]]. And when it’s severe, we’re 37% more likely to feel its full weight, with 19.8% of women rating their pain as severe versus 14.4% of men [2 [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37053114/]]. These aren’t just statistics - they’re indicators of the daily reality for millions of us, a silent epidemic of suffering that’s been ignored for too long. Now, layer on multiple sclerosis (MS), a disease that disproportionately strikes women—over 2.9 million people globally live with MS, and in Australia alone, that number exceeds 33,000, with women outnumbering men 3 to 1 [3 [https://www.msif.org/resource/atlas-of-ms-2020/]]. Up to 80% of those with MS experience chronic pain at some point, a grinding “companion” to a condition that’s already a thief of energy, mobility, and certainty [4 [https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neurology/articles/10.3389/fneur.2017.00461/full]]. I’ve spent the past six years navigating this landscape, and I know you probably have too or someone you love is working their way through this maze. That’s why I’m so excited to share S2 EP2 of Phoenix Sound, “Chronic Pain, MS and Empowerment with the amazing Chrissy Symeonakis, the fierce founder of Creative Little Soul [https://creativelittlesoul.com.au] who has turned her pain into a purpose, building a business that gives women their dignity back. This truth has been echoing in my mind ever since: This isn’t just a conversation; it’s a battle cry for every woman who’s ever been dismissed, diminished, or told to “just deal with it.” Chrissy’s story is a masterclass in fierce self-advocacy. When her MS diagnosis hit at 30, she didn’t wait for permission to rewrite her life. She set non-negotiable boundaries—like refusing summer meetings to manage her heat sensitivity—and built a business model that prioritises chronic illness, empowering her team and clients to reclaim their agency. In a world where women with chronic pain are often gaslit by healthcare systems especially those living with episodic disabilities like MS or lupus, Chrissy’s unapologetic advocacy is a reminder: If we don’t stand up and fight for ourselves, who will? But what does it mean to fight authentically and with integrity? Chrissy’s approach to marketing her business is a masterclass in both. She doesn’t hide her struggles—she shares them, building a brand that resonates because it’s real. In an era where 85% of consumers say authenticity drives their loyalty, Chrissy’s transparency isn’t just brave; it’s brilliant [5 [https://www.nosto.com/blog/consumer-content-report-influence-in-the-digital-age-2/]]. She’s not selling a polished facade; she’s offering a lifeline to women who see themselves in her story. And she’s not afraid to explore alternative therapies to manage her pain either. From medical cannabis to massage and setting her own work rhythm, Chrissy’s journey echoes a growing trend: 57.1% of people with MS have tried complementary therapies, seeking holistic relief where conventional medicine often falls short [6 [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23304461/]]. Her story challenges us to rethink what healing looks like—maybe it’s not just in a pill bottle, but in the courage to explore something new. What struck me most, though, was Chrissy’s generosity and passion for mentorship. During our conversation she says, “I just have so much time for people starting out,” and you can feel the truth in that through all the incredible work she does. She’s mentored university students, hired interns (one now works for her full-time), and created a culture at Creative Little Soul that lifts others up. A 2023 study found that 87% of mentees report increased confidence and career growth, and for women with chronic illnesses, that support can be a game-changer [7 [https://www.mentorcliq.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/2023-Mentoring-Impact-Report-Infographic.pdf]]. Chrissy knows that when women inspire women, we don’t just survive—we succeed. This episode is for every endo warrior, ever spoonie, every woman who’s ever felt the weight of chronic pain, the sting of dismissal, or the flicker of hope that there’s a way through. This conversation is a love letter to say: we see you. Chrissy’s words are a call to action—let’s share our stories, lift each other up, and fight for the care we deserve! We’d love to hear from you—what’s one way you’re finding strength through adversity? Reply in the comments - let’s keep this fire burning, together. Keep rising, Kel Here’s a roadmap to guide you through the episode: - **5:00**: Chrissy takes us inside the nightclub scene—her life before MS reshaped everything. - **5:55**: The power of mentorship—why encouragement can change lives. - **9:16**: How clear communication and assertion can help us come unstuck, even on our darkest days. - **13:30**: Hitting “shit town” and rising stronger—Chrissy’s raw take on resilience. - **22:48**: Adapting to life with MS, from setting boundaries to finding what works. - **28:07**: Building a business that gives women their dignity back—a mission born from pain. - **48:10**: “We have so many stories that need to be shared, and women inspiring women is such a powerful thing”—Chrissy’s closing words that’ll stay with you. References: [1] Mills, S.E.E., et al. (2019). Chronic pain: a review of its epidemiology and associated factors in population-based studies. *British Journal of Anaesthesia*. [2] National Center for Health Statistics. (2021). Chronic Pain Among Adults — United States, 2019. CDC Data Brief No. 390. [3] MS International Federation. (2023). *Atlas of MS, 3rd Edition* [4] Marck, C.H., et al. (2017). Pain in People with Multiple Sclerosis: Associations with Modifiable Lifestyle Factors, Fatigue, Depression, Anxiety, and Mental Health Quality of Life. *Frontiers in Neurology*. [5] Stackla (Nosto). (2023). Consumer Behavior Report. [6] Skovgaard, L., et al. (2012). Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine among People with Multiple Sclerosis in the Nordic Countries. Autoimmune Diseases. [7] MentorcliQ. (2023). Mentorship Program Impact Report. S2 EP2 Chrissy Symeonakis [00:00:00] Kel: I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. Now, before we start, I want to let you know that this episode includes a reference to suicide, which some might find tough to hear. Now, if you need support, you can find a helpline in your country through find a helpline.com [http://helpline.com]. Supported by the International Association for Suicide Prevention. in today's episode, I sat down with Chrissy Symeonakis founder and managing director of the award-winning agency, creative Little Soul for a conversation that left me truly inspired. When Chrissy found out that she had MS at the age of 30, her world turned upside down. Living with chronic pain is one of the worst forms of adversity a person can face. It's a daily battle that tests every ounce of your strength, and not everyone feels equipped to keep fighting. But Chrissy faced her health battle's head on, transforming her pain into purpose by building a business that not only supports their health, but also empowers others to rise above their own suffering too. Mixing raw innovation with a bold belief that success starts with believing in yourself, Chrissy is a fierce, chronic illness advocate now helping others find their voice through adversity. We talk about how having a get shit done mindset drives her work, how alternative medicine has helped her heal, and why self-advocacy and setting boundaries are essential to healing, for those of us living with chronic pain, stay with us. Hi, Chrissy. How you going? [00:01:31] Chrissy Symeonakis: Good. How you going? [00:01:32] Kel: Yeah, I'm good. Lovely to hear your voice. [00:01:35] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, you too. [00:01:35] Kel: Thanks for joining me on Phoenix Sound, its so great to have you here. So glad that we finally get to chat with each other. We've exchanged a few emails and I just felt an instant connection to you and your work and your journey, which is just truly inspiring. So for our listeners, at 30 Chrissy, While deeply immersed in hospitality marketing and events faced a life altering MS diagnosis and this pivotal moment led to Chrissy reevaluating her career and lifestyle and ultimately inspired. You to establish Creative Little Soul in 2013 and over the past 12 years, your agency's flourished evolving from a solo endeavour into a thriving digital agency with a really diverse team of creatives, all passionate professionals. And you know, it really takes a rare kind of resilience, I think and vision to not only like pivot in the face of that kind of adversity, but to also build something as well that empowers others along the way. That's just, you know, extraordinary really. [00:02:37] Chrissy Symeonakis: Thank you. [00:02:39] Kel: And in terms of, of people that you've empowered I'm including myself in that equation too. So that ripple effect continues to go out and your work is helping so many businesses find their voice as well. And your ability to blend creative with strategy, I think is a real testament to, to your passion and expertise. So welcome to Phoenix Sound Chrissy, it's lovely to have you here. Thank you. And thank you for that intro. That was really nice. You're welcome. My partner and I were researching for the interview and she was actually so excited. I, I said to her, do you wanna interview Chrissy? Because she was so empowered by, by your work and your story and bless. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to know what originally drew you into the creative service industry, and how has that journey evolved over the past two decades? You know, technology's changed so much in that period of time and the way that we, you know, find information and, use information so I'd love to get your thoughts on that. [00:03:36] Chrissy Symeonakis: So I was always a really creative kid. So, you know, my teacher one of my school teachers that I'm still connected with actually told me that she used to love reading my journals and creative stories at school. Because, you know, instead of filling one page, I probably feel about 20. So I just was inspired and really at a young age, my Mum encouraged me to write and I always wanted to be a writer and a journalist. I grew up in regional South Australia, so my auntie was the head of the community services division at the council. So she got me involved in a lot of like local council initiatives, youth week events. There was a youth newspaper and I was the editor at like 16 of that and did some writing courses. So just from a really young age, I, I just had a lot of inspiration and people pushing me into the creative sphere. I type so heavy. Everyone laughs at me because I learned to write on a typewriter, so I'm quite heavy handed. [00:04:31] Kel: Right. [00:04:32] Chrissy Symeonakis: And then, and then yeah, always was kind of that person that anyone, if they needed something written or, you know, assignments proofread at high school like I was the go-to. And then, yeah, I. Just figured out that, you know, I wanted to do something in media, did some work experience at high school and radio at the newspaper, and then just got a column in my small little town newspaper, writing about music. And then, I guess, you know, moved to the city, worked for a big nightclub, did their press and PR and marketing and yeah. [00:05:07] Kel: What was that, what was that like for a nightclub? Yeah. [00:05:10] Chrissy Symeonakis: Amazing. [00:05:11] Kel: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. [00:05:12] Chrissy Symeonakis: So I was this fresh faced country girl who moved three hours away to the big city. It was a wild time. I'm actually writing a book at the moment because I worked in King's Cross in Sydney. I worked in Adelaide in some nightclubs and all over the world. And I'm actually writing a book at the moment um, which will be. Yeah, later in the year about all the crazy stuff I saw in the nightclub scene. [00:05:33] Kel: Oh, brilliant. You'll have to send us a copy and come back to have a chat about that. [00:05:39] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, for sure. [00:05:40] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I'm just, I was wondering as well, like, how important do you think encouragement is you know, you say you had a lot of people supporting you, kind of like, you know, channeling your energy in that direction where you were already passionate. How important is it to have that encouragement, you know from a young age to, to kind of spur on, do what we want to [00:05:58] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah - huge. . I'm massive when it comes to mentorship. I actually have a relationship with a great friend of mine, her name's Lauren. And she's a university lecturer. She's teaches creative industries and every semester she partners me with a student who has to do some work experience in a creative industry. And I've had two of her interns now, and one of them actually works for me full time now. So, you know, she did that one day a week to two days a week, to three days a week. And I just, I just have so much time for people starting out because, you know, without myself having those mentors along the way, and I still have mentors now, it's just great to have somebody that, you know, can point you down the right path who can answer your questions, and just somebody that you can have a bit of a sounding board conversation to as well. [00:06:49] Kel: Yeah. It's like having someone to kind of walk that road with you and a companion down, like a dark, you know, maybe dangerous street when, when you're starting out. It's really important to have that person there that can guide you for sure. [00:07:02] Chrissy Symeonakis: Absolutely. [00:07:02] Kel: So you've got a signature get shit done attitude, which I absolutely love. That's just, it's amazing. Uhhuh. Yeah. And I, I feel like I need that on a cup, like on a, on a tea mug now, after [00:07:12] Chrissy Symeonakis: I'm gonna have to do some merch. [00:07:13] Kel: Yes totally do some merch its amazing. Yeah. Where does that come from and how's that shaped your career? That just idea of get it done, get it finished, you know? [00:07:23] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. So I come from a Greek Australian background. So my grandparents immigrated to Australia in the sixties. When they came to Australia, they left their family and everything that they knew behind them. My dad was two years old and his elder sister was, I think maybe six. And I've always, been around, like my, my family had as I was growing up a huge fruit farm and they still have vineyards now. And just from a young age, like, you know, we were probably four or five, six, we were in the shed. We were out there helping, you know, pick or cut you know, there'd be grapes we'd help. Not that I loved it. Mm-hmm. But I always just saw my grandparents. And my, my grandfather just passed a few days ago and my grandma a year ago, but like up until their eighties they were still out there helping my dad. So we've always been around this really strong work ethic. And even my dad, you know, while we were growing up, had three jobs just to give us all this opportunity that we have. And I think as well, when I got my chronic illness and my disability diagnosed, one of the things that really stuck with me was that the neurologist at the time said that if I don't make some changes within my lifestyle and diet and health, I was gonna fast my track myself to a wheelchair. And at 30 years old, I was like, that's not the trajectory I want my life to take. Yeah. So for me, it kind of just kind of gave me a bit of a wake up call and just said, you know what? Life's too short. And you really don't know what the future's going to foresee, so you just need to pull your finger out and not wait for opportunities, but create those opportunities for yourself and that's where that get shit done mantra comes from. Yeah. You know, I'm not sunshine and rainbows. If I send an email, I am probably gonna be very direct and to the point. Yeah. And that direct and to the point approach actually is what a lot of my clients need because they're a little bit stuck as well. [00:09:18] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. That assertion. Yeah, definitely. And, and just that clarity as well that gets provided when you are kind of to the point and you're not like fluffing around, you know, everyone gets to be on the same page quickly that way. And yeah, I must say like all our interactions, I felt so safe with you, Chrissy, and I've said that to my partner. Oh, thank you. Yeah, because not everyone is kind to be honest, so it's. It's always lovely when, when people are, it's refreshing. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And, and sorry to hear about the loss of, of your grandparent the other day. That's, that's a tremendous loss. And, you know, thank you. You talk about that intergenerational kind of connection where you're seeing different generations that you're all connected to all working hard and facing such adversity. And like, I know for myself. Like my grandparents like survived like the Nazis and there was like, bomb dropped on my Nana's house as a kid. When you grow up with people that have survived, things like that, you kind of like, you know, you learn to put things into perspective a bit more about like absolutely what, you know, struggle is and challenges and you, you learn to kind of just get through things. [00:10:27] Chrissy Symeonakis: Absolutely [00:10:27] Kel: what would you say is like the biggest challenge you've faced in life and how did you overcome it? Yeah, so I would say at 2019, so at the end of 2019, I. I had my really good friend, Paul Strange. He was a really successful promoter and event producer actually, and one of my mentors committed suicide. And I'd only spoken to him a few days before and I had no idea and that kind of really shocked me and shook me. So there was Paul's death, there were the Australian bush fires. And then Covid happened and I have OCD diagnosed and all of those events just compiling actually forced me and my little brain to just have a nervous breakdown. I just couldn't process. Yeah, and you know, I just remember. You know, all my clients calling me about covid and you know, there's all that uncertainty and business closure and my brain just just said, nah, can't do this. So I had to call my GP and then have like a mental health assessment and it was you know, a, a, a medication adjustment 'cause I have depression and OCD. So there was a medication adjust there, but it made me then seek out the services of a therapist and you know, I'd always heard everyone else was talking about therapy and, and you know what, that was the, I call it a breakthrough now as opposed to a breakdown because just being able to then go and get that help and talk about childhood trauma and then trauma around my MS diagnose, like I now see a therapist on a monthly basis and it's more proactive as opposed as reactive. 'cause I know ever want to get to that point again. And I just, I buy therapy appointments for my family and my friends. I think we should all do it. It's just the best thing to help us. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Therapy is so important and, and being proactive. Like, like you said, I, it's funny you say that 'cause I had a therapist literally say that to me last October. That's the note she left me on. She said, be proactive like three times in a row at the end of the call. This game changer, it really is to just have that in mind. Like, what can I actually control and. You know? Yeah. 'cause as you well know, living with, with illnesses and when it's complex as well, you know, there's so many challenges that we face that just everyday people would never really have to consider, you know? For sure. Yeah. Right. Like, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, really sorry for, for your loss there too. And, and thank you. Would've been a shock. Of course. And you're right. It's a case of how do we go through these things? And it can break us. But yeah, I've got a quote here. I overcame myself, the sufferer. I carried my own ashes to the mountains. I invented a brighter flame for myself. It's a Nietzsche quote, and I've got it like above my desk. My partner like wrote it out in a nice little card with a picture on it. [00:13:27] Chrissy Symeonakis: love that. [00:13:28] Kel: Because it's like, you know, sometimes we do have to become like the ashes. We do have to like go all the way down, like to shit town. Yeah. You know what I mean? To like, to come Absolutely. Like, you know, hopefully wiser and stronger from it. Maybe a few more scars. [00:13:43] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. And anytime anything happens I actually like, have the skills now to say, what am I meant to learn from this? Or, what am I meant to take from this? And I just kind of sit in that for a little while. And, you know, I do get a message back, which I, I, I. Is my intuition or God or spirit, like whatever you wanna call it. But every time now I'm just like, cool. You know what, what's the lesson I need to learn? How's it gonna help me moving forward? Okay, cool. Let's, and, and I'm very much a quick processor. Like I'm a big believer that you have to spend time in your feelings. Mm-hmm. Otherwise you just internalise them and then bottle 'em up. And then, and I'm a big believer that, you know, by us holding onto stuff, that's where the body gets a chronic illness or cancer or something like we're ruminating and you know, it's not good for us. So I like to process and I, I do a 20 minute rule and so I will be sad, mad, glad, you know, those big feelings. Or I'll have a cry for 20 minutes and it's an ugly snotty cry. And then I'll go Cool. You've processed that, now let's move on and do the rest of your day. And I can have those 20 minute breaks as often as I need them, but I just can't get stuck in bed for five days and, you know, go into deep depression because it's not proactive and it's not productive or good for me. Mm. [00:15:02] Kel: Yeah. I hear ya. And having like a practice in place where it's like 20 minutes and you know what you're kind of getting and it's like, I love that. That's such a, that's such a great idea. Like I've never set like a timer on it, but I do sometimes have an ugly cry in the shower in the morning. And I had one this because I woke up in quite a lot of pain. I'm actually get my, I replaced in a couple of months. So I'm in a difficult position where it's. Increased my quite significantly and I was probably in the shower. Oh no. But it's good to just get it out and it's nice to get the hot shower on you and then you get out and you just feel relieved and it's over and you can just kind of move on with the day, you know? Yeah, for sure. You say you don't wanna keep it in in the body, like that's when things get really problematic. When we hold and we do, we hold onto so much these days. Mm-hmm. It's, it's yeah, it's, it's good to have an ugly cry or just say, no, I'm feeling pissed off at the moment, mate. You know. Yeah, absolutely do that. Then pretend that everything's all rosy, like all the time, because it's never that for anyone. Is it really? Let's be honest. [00:16:08] Chrissy Symeonakis: No, not at all. No chronic illness or not like, you know, and I, and I feel like, you know a lot of people don't feel like they have permission to feel their feelings. And like, especially when, you know, grief is involved, like. And, you know, the other day was my, my Ms. Adversary. I call it my MS diagnosis anniversary. And leading up to it, like those feelings came back up again. 'cause I had some, you know, misdiagnosis issues and then some, you know, medical, I don't know, mal malpractice misconduct type stuff happened as well. So all of these feelings of anger and rage came back up. Mm. And I was just like, Ooh, yeah, we don't wanna go that. And I, and I dealt with it for like, you know, 10, 15 minutes, but I'm like, yeah, but look how far you've come and look how far you've evolved. So don't focus on the anger and rage. Just move through it real quickly. [00:17:03] Kel: Yeah, I think you, you're giving people a masterclass in what it looks like to be self-aware, Chrissy, you know, to be able to notice these things and just slow it down. I think that's everything, isn't it? It's not, there's no like wrong emotion. Like it's okay to feel angry. It's a, it's a normal reaction when there's injustice and there's a lot of injustice in this world, especially for women. I mean, that's you gas. It's not the way, it's, so it's like we are okay. Mm. But you know, we might feel angry or we might feel sad or frustrated and, and it's okay to, to feel those things, but I think the problem lies sometimes when people don't have that self-awareness and yeah. How you worked to cultivate that? [00:17:46] Chrissy Symeonakis: So it hasn't been easy. I'm really lucky. My aunt, my dad's younger sister, she's a cool auntie Trudy throughout my probably like teenage years and stuff like that. She was a therapist and, and still does a lot of like holistic psychology stuff. So from a pretty young age, I was taught to look at meditation. Kind of sitting in your feelings. Hypnosis? I do, so I do hypnosis once a month and work with a really cool lady and just a lot of reading and, you know, trying to better myself. But the hypnosis is a game changer for me. I see a woman once a month. We do an hour. You know, my dad triggers me, but we're both very similar in personality. So whenever I'm planning a trip home I go and see her so that I have some coping mechanisms and just a reminder that I do love my dad and if he does trigger me, just, you know, what I might do with those feelings or, you know, away way for me to change the conversation or a way for me to cope. And then, you know, I. Just had a skip this session the other day, and obviously my business is going really well. I'm starting to implement some new structures and strategies, seek out some new clients. So I know from my, my past self that limiting selfie managing self-sabotage and communication can struggle for me. So we proactively went in to work on those things. So yeah, that's a little bit of how I've, I've come to play with that. [00:19:21] Kel: I've never heard anyone chat about hypnotherapy before. I'm not really that familiar with it. For, for anyone that, that, that isn't who's like me, who's uneducated, what would like a typical session look like? [00:19:33] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. So what we do is before we have the session, we just identify anything that we would like to work on. So like. Example, the limiting self beliefs. And then what we'll do is my hypnotherapist asks me where I would like to go today. So it's like a little bit of a vacation. Hmm. So my ideal place to go is by the beach. So I like the, the water. So she'll basically tell me to close my eyes. And then she just starts talking about, you know, you, you're going into a trance. You are walking down some steps and you're getting. You know, a bit more relaxed, more relaxed, more relaxed, and then you go into hypnotherapy. So the entire time you're conscious. But what the point of the session is, is to not talk to your, your conscious self, but your self-conscious self. So the actual part of the brain that makes the decisions and kind of is in the background and then she just makes light. Instructions and you know, you coming into a busy time of the year you know, you are strong, you are powerful. You are driven. So, you know, just remember anytime if you have these thoughts of. Doubting yourself. Remember that you are, you know, a goddess or whatever, and it's just light suggestion. I feel amazing when we have, and, and it's funny, she said to me the other day, whenever we pick the topics that we want to talk about, so say for example, I have three things that she's gonna discuss. And we've still got like 15 minutes left of the session, I'll fall asleep. She goes, yeah, you always fall asleep because your brain goes, all right, we've done the work now. Yeah. And then it shuts down. [00:21:09] Kel: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. [00:21:11] Chrissy Symeonakis: But it's great. Like I've used her for grief after my grandmother died. I dealt it with yeah, grief, sadness, guilt, like all these things. She's really helped me to work on. [00:21:25] Kel: Wow. Yeah, that sounds really powerful, those affirmations. Mm-hmm. They really are. They're, they're so powerful for just like getting the brain on like the right track. I know for myself, like whenever I'm having a fly up on my, my partner is like, we'll, we'll say to each other and to ourselves, like, you're safe. Like, so for I say that frequently, I'd be like, safe, you safe, it's okay. You know? So I don't, into massive fight or flight and just having those mantra can really just, yeah, get you back on the right track. [00:21:55] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. And it's funny you mentioned fight or flight because I said to her on our session last week, I said, I feel like for the longest time I've been in, in a, a state of fight or flight and I just wanna sit and rest and digest for a little while. And it's interesting, like I'm an emotional eater, like a comfort eater because my grandma. And the Greek culture, like so much of it is about food, but that's how they show that they love you. Yeah. So it's interesting. Since we've had this switch to rest and digest, I've noticed I've not been comfort eating at all and making healthier choices. So we didn't do anything with that at all. That's just a byproduct of, of now switching into that mode, which I've noticed has been a bit of a thing. [00:22:39] Kel: That's cool. Yeah that's powerful isn't it? That association, how it can just change, like we we live by the lake in Ballarat, and there's a farmer's market on every other Saturday like through Summer. It's about 20 minute walk it's a nice little, little trek round the lake. And we were trying some of the fresh produce a few weeks ago, like the blueberries and stuff that have come in like straight from the local farms and they just tasted so amazing. And normally we go and get a couple of donuts from this van. But the blueberries were that good that when we had the donut, we were like, it doesn't taste good. And when you start putting the right things in your body, it's funny how your body starts going, nah, I'm not really digging that chocolate. I used to eat like so much chocolate. Yeah. But since having endo, I've had to really kind of cut down on sugar. But it's funny how your taste buds do just naturally adjust over time and Yeah. [00:23:29] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. Absolutely. [00:23:30] Kel: So on your website I was looking at last night, it says that there's no substitute for self-advocacy, which I, I love and wholeheartedly agree with. And I was wondering how living with MS has influenced your approach to work and creativity and how you've had to maybe adapt your life. [00:23:48] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, so when I started my business I was working for like a big, big hospitality group, but the toxicity was just crazy. Like it was a really bad place to work. And looking back now, I'm like, why did we ever work there? It was, it was really bad. And so, you know, starting my own business was. You know, I never had plans of it being this big or having this many staff. Like I honestly was just creating something for myself so that if I had a flare up or a relapse, I could work from home. That I could, I. Travel and see my family when I wanted. So, you know, and I was always, I was always very clear and transparent with people about my MS experience and how that looks for me. And, you know, in summer I'm affected by the heat, so I won't go to face-to-face meetings until like the weather comes around. So I just set all these rules and this criteria and they were my non-negotiables. And if you didn't adhere or agree to them, well then I couldn't work with you. And most people were awesome and most people were still awesome. Like they'll call me if they know I'm unwell. They, if I'm in a hospital going for a treatment, they like, no, don't worry about it. You know, you look after yourself first. So I feel like I've created this culture where. Chronic illness is at the forefront and we're not afraid to tell people about it. And what I know, what I notice that a lot is 'cause I'm a part of heaps of ms, like closed women groups on Facebook and different communities and a lot of people don't share their diagnosis and they're just not comfortable telling other people about it, even in their workplace. And I'm like, but look at the concessions that could be made for you. You know, you could have a hybrid model where you could work from home. It just was so, so foreign and, and probably a little bit sad to me that there are, there are people out there and a lot of women really that are just too scared to be vulnerable Yeah. With their community or their friends for. Fear of persecution or exclusion. You know, a not a lot of people really understand chronic illness unless you have one. So I'm sure there's loads of people out there that get the whole, oh yeah, my friend's, my friend's, cousins, auntie has ms, and they're fine, or blah, blah, blah. You know, any, all, all the chronic illness spoons know this. Yeah. [00:26:15] Kel: Yeah, [00:26:16] Chrissy Symeonakis: so for, so for me it was like, you know what, you're pretty vocal and you're pretty like, and my, my ethos across everything is just very direct. And not to sugarcoat anything and just to share my journey because it might inspire somebody else to share their story or they might just feel a little bit less alone. So that's why I'm so vocal, I suppose. [00:26:41] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. And that ripple effect that, that creates by you sharing your voice like you are today and, and all the times like we've been, yeah. We've been reading your blogs and we had such a lovely time going through your work. Thank you. So inspiring, Chrissy. And you're right, like women like us, we need to come out of like the shadows kind of thing and, and be at the forefront. [00:27:01] Chrissy Symeonakis: 'cause we matter too. And we're not in fear of humans because we've got chronic pain. So, yeah, you know, we deserve the respect and dignity that everyone else has afforded that's working, you know, nine to five and running round every day. So I, it's just shame isn't there. I think around it. And, and, and I also understand why people feel like they can't be vulnerable, because sometimes you can't be, and when there's power differentials with health practitioners And some do take advantage, some are predatory, sadly. Yeah, it's, it's tough isn it to know, like, you know, to traverse the system and you know, if you find a good practitioner it's like, hold onto him, hug them tight. Absolutely. Birthday card, like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Because some are are quite bad and yeah. and I think as well, like I have a number of ladies that work for me. [00:27:54] Chrissy Symeonakis: My team's completely female except for our web dev and we've got this amazing culture and some of my staff have chronic illness as well. And, and the biggest thing you know about creating my business and even working with clients and building community is about giving people their dignity back. And so many people that I work with in a chronic with in the chronic illness and disability space, they don't wanna be on disability. They don't wanna be on the NDIS, but unfortunately these are their options. So, you know, when I meet a lot with people who have a chronic illness who might've been high performing executives, they've worked in an office before they just want their dignity back. They just wanna be able to contribute and get off that, or supplement their income. And that's why I love to work with people with chronic illness 'cause we're like. What are your hobbies? What do you love to do? How can we monetize that? And then give you back that empowerment so you can step back into your, your, you know, creativity or you know, generating wealth for yourself. Like let's look at what you're good at and let's help you. [00:28:58] Kel: I love that. That's so beautiful. It's, it's, it's incredible the ecosystem that you've created, Chris. It's, it's really powerful and so heartwarming, I'm not gonna lie. It's, it's really lovely. Oh, thank you. It's gorgeous to hear this and, for Christie and I first connected for everyone listening I'd reached out to explore chatting to people about their stories of using alternative therapies. And I know for you that medical cannabis has been a part of your journey. And I was wondering how that's impacted your health, transformed your health and your wellbeing. What been your experience with that? Before we dive into that, here's a message from our sponsor. Looking for game changing marketing that actually delivers? At Creative Little Soul, we don't just create content, we craft impactful results driven marketing strategies tailored to your business from social media management, content creation, to paid ads and branding, email marketing and event promotion. -we do it all so you don't have to. We know that every brand has a story and we help you tell yours in a way that Connects, engages and converts. Whether you are a small business, hospitality venue, or creative entrepreneur, our team of marketing experts, copywriters, and content strategists will take your brand to the next level. Let's make marketing magic together. Get in touch today at www.creativelittlesoul.com.au [http://www.creativelittlesoul.com.au] Now let's get back to Chrissy's insights. [00:30:26] Chrissy Symeonakis: Love it. So there was a lot of research in the US and in Europe that medical cannabis was great for people with MS to help with pain. I also have another nerve disorder called trigeminal neuralgia, which is like this weird, terrible face pain. And it's, they actually call it the suicide disease because the pain and. The intensity of this nervous, like this nerve cluster is just so, so bad. It hurts. So what much? So I was taking like really high doses of Lyrica other pain medications to try and keep it at bay. I was seeing an osteo cranial osteopath, so that was helping, but the pain was always still there. So just again, being part of one of these Facebook communities I saw that there was some people getting some cBD oil and CBD and THC bombs from a place in Nimbin, which was like not the medical route, but really the only route at that time. So, you know, I set my little envelope in with my money and they sent it back to me. So I was kind of like using black market products for a little while, and then when medicinal cannabis was actually available, I booked a proper consultation. Okay. Had the consult with the doctor went through what I was looking for, and so we tried a, what was it? So there was a balm, some drops and oil and some flowers. And then, so I did that and the first strain was fine, but like, I'd have to take quite a bit of it. I don't like to smoke it. It makes me cough. So my husband actually makes it into edibles for me. Yeah, he's a chef, so he makes me edibles out of, they're jelly, they're jellies. And yeah, I've actually, in 18 months, I've been able to take myself off of, the nerve blocking pain medication and probably haven't taken proper painkillers for this disorder in about 12 months. And I just manage with the CBD gummies and, you know, as you probably know, sometimes it's more, I probably haven't had them for about, I haven't had to use the gummies in about four weeks. So now I can just maintain and utilise that. It's a strongest strain, like you have a consult. But yeah, I think it's amazing. Like to be able to switch out a pharmaceutical medication for something that's natural. Yeah, I highly, and I recommend it to lots of people, like obviously speak to your doctor. I'm not a doctor and you know, check to see if there's would be any interactions with the medication you're on. Yeah. 'cause that's super important. If you have underlying mental health issues, it might not be for you, but I was able to tick all the right boxes and yeah, it's just great to know that I have it there as an option. [00:33:10] Kel: Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah, I haven't tried the gummies. I've, I've tried magnesium gummies and I've found that they've been a lot more effective than just like taking a capsule. Yeah. And it tastes nice too, so Yeah. Yeah, like apple flavors, so that's nice. But yeah, a lot of people are using medical cannabis now for. For chronic pain. I think it's like over 80% of the prescriptions are for chronic pain. So he shows you, doesn't it like one, like how big Farmers failed so many of the population because people alternative was working and, and just two, that it is effective and. And yeah, it's really changing life, so, yeah, it's good to hear. [00:33:49] Chrissy Symeonakis: I really had to, I really had to argue with my neurologist when I, when it first come out. [00:33:55] Kel: Okay. I [00:33:55] Chrissy Symeonakis: was a avail. I was available here and I said, and my neuro is really good. Like I had five before I got to this guy, and he's awesome. And he really does listen to me and my recommendations and requests and I just said, Hey, I wanna try medicinal cannabis. And he is like, yeah, there's still not the data. I said, no, there's not the data here in Australia. [00:34:15] Kel: Mm, [00:34:15] Chrissy Symeonakis: there is. There is substantial data in the Europe and the US and I'm part of MS communities and it works. And he is like, well, I'm not comfortable in prescribing that to you. And I was like, that's fine. So I just went to my gp, she gave me a referral to a dispensary and a doctor specific, and literally it was a 15 minute phone call. You know, went through my medical history, went through my, you know, medications and yeah, I had a script at the same day. So, yeah, sometimes if one doctor says no I feel like you've just gotta find the doctor that will give you what you need and find one who's actually gonna listen to you. [00:34:53] Kel: Mm. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I had Amanda Blessing on the podcast last year. She's an executive coach for women in Melbourne. And she said like, you know, going into these kinds of scenarios, where is that power differential? You know, you've gotta try and. Make sure that person's an equal partner or that they wanna be an equal partner with you. And one thing she said as well, which I thought was powerful, was that not just like, what do you want, but what are you not willing to accept? Yeah. And I thought that's a powerful thing too. And it ties in with what you were saying earlier around setting those boundaries and, and being clear about what you can and can't do. Like, you know, you can't do, you know, meetings in summer because it's too hot. Yep. Letting people know. And the difference I make when we're all on the same page, you know. [00:35:40] Chrissy Symeonakis: For sure, and I love that you talk about that power. Power as well in the equal playing field, because I refuse to call my doctor, professor or to call them like doctor this. I call them by their first name and yeah. And they're like, I'm like, Hey, Brenna. Hey everyone. And they're like, my husband was weird about it. I go, no. How are they any better than me? I'm specialised in my area. They're specialised in their area. I said, you know, to me, they're just somebody that I'm outsourcing my health to, so I'm treating them as my equal. Yeah. They've got an area of expertise somewhere else, but it doesn't make them any better or more superior to me. Mm-hmm. So I'm very adamant to call them by first name. Yeah. [00:36:20] Kel: Same thing. Yeah. My, my partner's an RN and, and she, she's been used to it now, but at first she got, she was a bit uncomfortable that I'd just come out and, and call the doctor, like SHA or whatever. I love that. I just, it just feels like I need to have them there, like on my level. Yeah. I can't be holding. Yeah. Agree. Yeah. I hear what you're saying. Yeah. [00:36:40] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. Cool. [00:36:41] Kel: Yeah. What's, what's one thing you wish that one, that people knew more about when it comes to living with a chronic pain condition that you don't think he's getting out there enough right now? [00:36:51] Chrissy Symeonakis: Mm. I think that when you meet somebody with a chronic illness or chronic pain, don't try and compare your own pain to theirs. Like I know a lot of people will be like wanting to empathise, but the worst thing that somebody could say to me is 'oh yeah, I get headaches too', or, 'yeah, I have a sore back as well.' Mm-hmm. Because that it's almost like a little bit condescending, like it's almost, it feels like a little bit dismissive and I. Get really shitty because you don't understand my pain levels. You don't understand that. While I might be here talking to you, I am probably gonna be in bed for the next two days and I'm gonna have to go for a massage now, and I'm gonna probably have to take pain meds like. Just say, 'wow, that's really hard and that sounds terrible'. And, you know, say things that are a bit more supportive as opposed to being, making it about you to make you feel comfortable. Like, I feel like a lot of people do that. Or even ask your friends with, with chronic pain, or, 'Hey, what does, what does a pain day look like to you?' Like, what's, what's a 10 for you? What does a 10 feel like? [00:38:00] Kel: Mm. [00:38:01] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, don't, you don't always have to have an answer. Like, I always you know, say like, don't say you are sorry, or I'm, you know, I say to my husband all the time, he, I might be upset, I might be in pain or whatever, and he's like. I'm really, that sucks. Or I'm really sorry, but like, I want him to be mad with me sometimes [00:38:21] Kel: and be like, [00:38:21] Chrissy Symeonakis: yes. And yeah. And I'm like, I don't need you to like, be supportive. I just need you to be like, that's shit. And that's unfair. And that's, and you know, just for a few minutes, like, so yeah, say that to your friends and be like, you know what, it does suck that you have chronic pain. And I can't even imagine what that feels like for you. But you know what? I know how strong you are. And what can I do to help you? And I feel like those words are better than, oh, that must suck, or, yeah, I get a headache too. I get a headache too. Or I have a sore back. Like they like triggering words for me. I. [00:38:56] Kel: Yeah. It's that like comparative suffering, isn't it, of like, yeah. Oh my God. You know, I remember growing up, like I, I grew up on like a counselor state, but like mm-hmm. My Mum would say things like, you know, you don't know what it's like. Look at those children in Ethiopia, and it's like, I can't get those kids from Ethiopia outta my head because it's. Like, like, well, what can, what? That doesn't change the fact that like, we've not got enough. Mm-hmm. It doesn't, it doesn't help someone if you start, and also it's kind of like they're taking the stage. Oh me. Yeah. I kind of feel like if you are struggling and you just, you need empathy in that moment, you just need to feel seen and heard. It's like you're kind of in the water and another person is like in the boat, and then by saying, me too, they're jumping out the boat. It's like you were in the boat and you were in a position to support. You didn't need to jump out the boat and be swimming in the water with me now, because then it's like, well, yeah, I understand what you're saying. It's, it's hard. Yeah. [00:39:56] Chrissy Symeonakis: That's a great analogy. That's a great way of explaining it as well. [00:40:00] Kel: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, because it's real and it's different for everyone. Like I'm a big believer in equity and you know, meeting people where they're at, like treating everyone equal as a human being, but not saying like, oh, you know, this worked for Endo for this person. Like I remember someone texting me. Suggesting I get hysterectomy. This is someone who I'd never met in real life. So Wow. That's a massive overreach. For sure. But saying like, because I did and he's my wife now, and it's like, but it's not like that. It's not massive. Yeah. It's not a one size fits all situation. Chronic pain is really complex and its different. Absolutely. And how it, our lives, we need more understanding and more. Space just to express ourselves, like you say, just a few minutes to saying, you know what? Bloody pissed off about that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I thought we could have a little chat, like finish on just chatting about like marketing and, and business. Yeah, sure. Business of creativity. 'cause many creatives do really struggle with, with self-promotion. I know I'm, I'm one of them. I'm not really massively on social media. Like I quit Facebook and Instagram a few years ago 'cause I just found it quite overstimulating. So that was just like a, for me. But what advice would you give. To people, people in terms of marketing themselves authentically, because I can tell from chatting to you, Chrisy, like this is you, you know, this is who you're, you know what I mean? Yeah. So thank you. You know, there's a lot of people wanna like project a certain thing and it might not be them at all, you know, and Yeah. I'm wondering advisor. [00:41:41] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, for sure. So I always tell everyone to build an email list. So platforms like Facebook and Instagram. The followers that U Mass or the network that U Mass actually belong to Facebook and Instagram. So if they were to turn the platforms off tomorrow there'd be a lot of influencers or businesses that wouldn't have a way to communicate with their customers. True. So I always recommend people, I always recommend people build an email list and you could just have like a contact form on your website or you can go to Google Sheets and make your own, or like a MailChimp, something simple. And then what you can do is you can send out newsletters. On a semi-regular basis or whenever something's coming up, and then those conversations are just like a letter to your friend. That's how I tell people to write them. Write 'em as if you're talking to one person. And over time that list will grow. You know, I think I've got over 120,000 on my email list now, but like, if you look at my socials, I've probably got, you know, four or 5,000. But my database and my mailing list is where I generate most of my revenue, and then where I build community and conversation with people. Don't be on every single platform. If it doesn't feel authentic to you, then you don't have to be there. I hate TikTok. I'm not about Snapchat, so I really just focus on the platforms that I engage on. You know, LinkedIn is really an undervalued tool. And if you are wanting to network or wanting to do collaborations I definitely would recommend LinkedIn. And I think as well, my other pro tip would be. Sit down and map out your content. What is the message you wanna send as opposed to doing like content on an ad hoc, on the fly basis because it can be much more strategic and structure. You know what your goals are, what do you wanna achieve and what's the end game. [00:43:31] Kel: Hmm. That's brilliant. Yeah, that's some really great tips there, Chrisy. Thanks. I've, I, I've written self down through our conversation for like two pages notes, so thank, thank you. Oh, yeah. I'm sure people get a lot from that because, you know, it does feel, or at least it seems to appear crowded. A lot of people talk about that, like, how can I stand out? And it's not always the case of like, well just shout louder. You know? It's about, like you say, being strategic about the content and planning it out and the messaging. Writing to someone like they're a friend and that personalisation. What makes brand stand out to you? [00:44:08] Chrissy Symeonakis: Consistency. Yeah, we do a lot of work for clients on branding. And it's really about, you know, going through and doing the hard stuff. Like we take people through this like process and we ask them questions like, you know, when you die, what do you wanna be remembered for? What's your legacy? What's your ethos? Who are your ideal clients? What do they look like? So we flesh out all of this stuff and then, then comes the logo, then comes the content. But really it's at the core, you know, and I ask people to ask the, ask themselves these questions like, who's my ideal client? How much money do I wanna make? What does this bring me? What do I want my business to afford me? Like, is it time, is it travel? Is it money to travel? Is it to pay off my home loan? Like, ask the deep questions and then everything else is secondary from that. But yeah, consistency, showing up and just building a community that loves you. [00:45:12] Kel: That's amazing. You built so much already, Chrissy. I'm wondering what's next, what's on the horizon for the business? I know. [00:45:19] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. I'm, I'm a mad, I'm a mad woman. Everyone always laughs at me. My staff laugh at me because I have you know, I do a lot of like self work, so I'm like, I'll, you know, go somewhere and have a coffee or go for a walk and I come back inspired. But. For me at the moment I have a project called Beyond the Mirror Ball, and this is the collection of stories of my career in the entertainment and club nightclub, festival sphere. I just saw so much crazy stuff, both my own stories and stories of my colleagues. So that'll be a book which is being written at the moment. It'll be a podcast and then it will also be a club night, which I'll tour with DJs and stuff 'cause that's the land that I lived in for a while and still dabbling. So that's my project at the moment, but then also building Creative Little Soul into more regional Australia. I come from the country in South Australia. I have a team member there, so I just noticed that there are a lot of women specifically in business that are those solo entrepreneurs Mumtrepreneurs, or solo traders, and they're just craving connection and community. So I'm setting up some grassroots networking events for people. We're not trying to sell 'em anything. It's just come along, have an hour. I'll buy you a cup and just connect, like I really am big on helping people form connections and then collaborations. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a connector, so my staff always laugh at me 'cause I'm like, oh yeah, you know, something will come up. And I'm like, oh, I know a guy for that, or I know a guy for this. And that, you know, it will be in the chat and something will come up and they're like, let me guess, you know a guy? I'm like, totally, I have five guys. So yeah, I'm very well, a networker and connector. So that's probably what's on my dance card for right now. [00:47:10] Kel: That's amazing. I'm so excited about this book, Chrissy. I'm, I'm, I'm already like picked it. I can't, yeah. I can't wait. Yeah. Awesome. [00:47:20] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yes. I'll send you a copy. [00:47:21] Kel: Oh, wicked. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. That's gonna be cool. The podcast. Listen, people who wanna connect with your work, and I know many that are listening to this, [00:47:31] Chrissy Symeonakis: yeah, so they can just find us at creativelittlesoul.com.Au [http://creativelittlesoul.com.Au] creative Little Soul on all the socials. Otherwise you can find me Chrissy Symeonakis I know it's a big, long Greek name. But yeah, you can find me on my socials at chrissy dot sim for my personal one. [00:47:47] Kel: Oh, that's amazing. I'm so glad you said your last name, Chrissy, because I was like, I'm gonna butcher that. So I'm glad you just said it, so thank you. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you today and I'm so looking forward to sharing this conversation with the world. I think a lot of women will feel seen and heard from, from this and work so inspiring and all the best with everything in the future and I'm so glad we connected - thanks so much Chrissy. [00:48:10] Chrissy Symeonakis: Thank you for having me, and thanks for facilitating these beautiful conversations with different women, you know? Oh, thank you. We, we have so many stories that need to be shared, and women, inspiring women is just such powerful thing. So yeah. Thank you. Thank you for hosting us and for having those discussions. You're doing a great job, so thank you. [00:48:29] Kel: And that dear listeners, brings to close my interview with Chrissy Symeonakis what a powerful conversation you know, three reflections for me. The first one being just, wow, Chrissy's pragmatism is so refreshing and her get. Shit done mantra coming from her Greek roots, an MS diagnosis really shows that even in our darkest moments, we've got choices. And even on our worst days, we have the power to transform our breakdowns into breakthroughs by facing the reality of our situations and trusting that we've got the tools within us to overcome whatever life throws at us. I also love Chris's take on self-advocacy, especially setting those non-negotiable boundaries, which is often a really hard lesson for anyone dealing with chronic pain to prioritise their own health but resilient people like Chrissy know that only by taking care of themselves are they able to truly help and serve others? I had love to hear from you. What are your thoughts on today's conversation and what boundaries are you setting to protect your time and energy? Drop me a message or share your story in the comment section of the episode. I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. Get full access to Phoenix Sound by Kel Myers at phoenixsound.substack.com/subscribe [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

4. april 2025 - 49 min

S2 EP1: The New Frontier of Healing: Breaking Myths and Reclaiming Truth with guest Mike Sassano

"Percys had my soul, Percys had my soul!” – Percocet by Dave East & Araabmuzik The opioid crisis didn’t just happen. It was designed. For decades, marginalised communities across the world have been over-policed, over-prescribed, and systematically left to deal with the wreckage alone. The war on drugs tore families apart—nowhere more visibly than in the U.S., where harsh sentencing laws and corporate-backed pharmaceutical lobbying continue to create cycles of addiction and incarceration. But this isn’t just an American problem. From the UK to Australia, prohibitionist policies and economic disenfranchisement have given rise to powerful mythmaking in mainstream society. We were taught to fear cannabis—told it was a gateway drug, a danger, a threat. At the same time, we were conditioned to trust the pharmaceutical industry, despite its long history of profit-driven deception. Prior generations were raised to revere the doctor—to see them as unquestionable authorities, the final word on life and death, sickness and health. Medicine was institutionalized, and with it, trust became doctrine. The idea that healing could come from outside the system—let alone from nature—was ridiculed, dismissed, even criminalized. Generations have been raised on the belief that healing comes in the form of a pill, prescribed by a doctor who knows best. That discomfort should be masked, pain should be dulled, and symptoms—rather than root causes—should be managed indefinitely. The opioid epidemic, the rise of antidepressant dependency, and the explosion of chronic illness tell the story of where that thinking has led us. But as we dislocate further from nature, we become sicker. We now know the limitations of conventional treatment—as well as its incredible breakthroughs. This isn’t about upending modern medicine but expanding it. Integrative medicine isn’t a rejection of science; it’s a recognition that science itself must evolve. Expansive medicine considers the complexity of the human being—body, mind, and environment. In The Fourth Turning, William Strauss and Neil Howe write: “The myths that endure are those that illuminate the virtues (or vices) that successive generations see recurring in their own time.” (p.75) We need to ask ourselves: * What aren’t we willing to tolerate anymore? * What don’t we want to see happen again? * What won’t we put up with? Right now, we have an opportunity to move beyond the binary of good vs evil by shining a light on truth over ideology, healing over profit, and possibility over fear. Medicine is not a war. Science is not a battleground of pharmaceuticals vs. nature, doctors vs. patients, or conventional vs. alternative. It is, and always should be, an evolving pursuit of what works—what actually heals, empowers, and restores and what doesn’t. What we’re witnessing right now is not just a shift in healthcare, it’s a reclamation of autonomy, knowledge, and connection. We are not just patients. We are people entitled to actively participate in our own lives. And we are rewriting the story. From Season One to Season Two: A Metamorphosis Hip-hop has always been the voice of the unheard. It tells the stories institutions try to bury—the consequences of failed systems, the weight of generational pain, the reality of survival when the odds are stacked against you. This isn’t just about music. It’s about truth-telling in a world where narratives are controlled by those in power. When Dave East raps about his battle with oxycodone, he’s exposing what policymakers, pharmaceutical executives, and medical gatekeepers refuse to acknowledge: addiction isn’t just chemical. It’s systemic, cultural and generational. Season One of Phoenix Sound was about exploration - a nomadic search for answers in a world where conventional medicine often fails those who need it most. I sat down with people who weren’t afraid to challenge the status quo—people who’ve risked their reputations, careers, and livelihoods to speak the truth. 🔥 Amanda Blesing [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/p/women-negotiating-better-outcomes-health-career-amandablesing-guest] – A powerhouse in women’s leadership, Amanda showed us that breaking through isn’t about waiting for permission—it’s about demanding space. 🔥 Dr. Amy Carmichael [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/p/breaking-the-pain-cycle-exploring-1fe] – A doctor who lost everything for standing by her medical ethics. She taught us that like COVID-19, courage is also contagious. 🔥 Dr. Susie Alegre [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/p/being-human-in-the-age-of-ai-with] – An international human rights lawyer fighting for the freedom to think in an era of AI where surveillance and corporate control are normalised. She reminded us that autonomy and freedom start with the mind and that yes - humans do have rights. These were people who didn’t just question the system—they stood against it, risking everything to speak truth to power. They weren’t just guests. They were signposts pointing toward something bigger. The Architects of Transformation This season, I’m speaking with people who don’t just navigate change—they ignite it. Their work is disruptive, dynamic, and at times, dangerous. But they push forward because the alternative—staying silent—isn’t an option. In the first episode of Season Two, I interviewed Mike Sassano, who, as CEO of SOMAI Pharmaceuticals, is pushing alternative medicine forward against a backdrop of institutional resistance. His company works with Cookies, a brand that’s deeply embedded in hip-hop culture, a reminder that cannabis isn’t just about medicine—it’s about identity, equity, and reclaiming freedom over our own healing. We discussed: 🔥 The fight for a future where medicine is determined by science and patient need, not Big Pharma greed. 🔥 The vital role of education in the ongoing battle against misinformation. 🔥 What a truly integrative health system, where alternative medicine is accepted and accessible, looks like. This is the metamorphosis. 🎧 Thanks for listening. 🔗 Watch Percocet: Moving forward, we will be releasing new interviews on the first Friday of every month. Please see below for timestamps, transcript and to submit questions, guest suggestions etc. KEY TOPICS AND TIME MARKERS [00:00:00] – Introduction [00:02:00] - Mike Sassano’s Background & SOMAI Pharmaceuticals [00:03:30] - Culture & Medical Cannabis: Beyond the Doctor’s Office [00:06:00] - Personal Experience with Medical Cannabis [00:07:30] - Terpenes & The Science of Medical Cannabis [00:10:00] - The Power of Big Pharma in Healthcare Mythmaking [00:22:30] - Reducing Stigma & The Fight for Medical Cannabis Equity [00:28:00] - Expanding Alternative Medicine to Match Human Complexit [00:38:00] - The Future of Healthcare: What Comes Next? [00:44:00] - Closing Reflection PODCAST LINKS: · Substack: https://phoenixsound.substack.com [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/] · Apple Podcasts: https://shorturl.at/R5iZN [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/] · Spotify: https://shorturl.at/wLteQ [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/] · RSS: https://api.substack.com/feed/podcast/1495034.rss [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/] · Pocketcasts: https://pca.st/2ef7kmo5 [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/] SOCIAL LINKS: · Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kel-myers-0790298/ [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/] · X: https://x.com/Kelmyer5 [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/] · Threads: @phoenixsoundbykelmyers · Substack: https://phoenixsound.substack.com [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/] TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00] Kel: I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. Today I'm joined by Mike Sassano, the CEO of SOMAI Pharmaceuticals, together we deep dive into the science behind medical cannabis. In today's conversation we focus on the groundbreaking role of terpenes in medical cannabis and how these compounds are reshaping patient care and influencing treatment outcomes. The science backed potential of full spectrum cannabis to address a wide range of health challenges from inflammation to anxiety and the ongoing tension that exists between government regulations Big Farmers Interests, and the urgent need to put patients first in this ever evolving space. Stay with us. Thanks for joining me on Phoenix Sound today, Mike. I really appreciate it. I'd love if we can start with really what inspired your journey into medical cannabis, into this space, and also, if we can start by giving the audience an overview as well of SOMAI pharmaceuticals, that'd be really helpful. [00:00:56] Mike Sassano: So, SOMAI Pharmaceuticals, was kind of created to bring, uh, cannabis products, uh, to the global markets. And then if you, uh, go back even further in history, uh, where my, where my roots are, uh, with cannabis. Um, you know, I developed, uh, and built with my own hands and my brother and I both actually, um, built over 25 cannabis facilities in the United States. And as, uh, time went on, I realised that we could make, uh, better products by running our own facilities and, uh, and, and making better products for the patients because in the early form it was medical markets. Um, And then, uh, taking that knowledge of creating better products, better flower, uh, for those medical patients, metamorphosised, um, as the market developed. And then I saw the development of the medical markets in the global markets, and I said, that's another place where I believe we can have an advantage, um, to help patients to get better products for those communities. And so, Um, now Somai is 134 employees and we've reached 12 countries and growing, um, with our products and, uh, we've gone from, uh, simply making the most, uh, comprehensive portfolio for extracts to, um, to now owning our own cultivation and, um, Uh, not only growing for some of the best brands in the world like cookies, but also bringing flowers across the global market. So we've, we've expanded quite well, um, to fit the shoes of a top vertically integrated multi country operator. [00:02:36] Kel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have heard of cookies, the brand. quite into hip hop and I've heard that brand referenced a few times by rappers. Um, yeah, just to see that growth and obviously Australia's seen significant growth in his medical cannabis market. Ibis world. that between 2019 and 2024, the industry grew by 112%. I'm sure it's a little bit more than that, but um, you know, with SOMAI's current presence and interest in Australia, how, how do you see the market evolving or metamorphosizing as you say, you know, you've been there from, from really the start, um, growing in America and now you're global. So yeah, I'd love to get your take on that. [00:03:25] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I think it's really interesting what you just said there is, um, you know, when you Uh, said, I identify, or I at least understand, or I've heard about cookies through hip hop and that. Um, uh, this is, this is very important because reaching, uh, different demographics, um, that can be helped with cannabis, um, doesn't stop, uh, just at the doctors. It also goes to the culture on what people are talking about and, and what products they are talking about within that community that help them. And so, um, I think, I've always said this and my articles have been very clear about this. Australia is one, it is the number one, um, market for medical, uh, cannabis selection with over 1, 300, uh, different SKUs in the market. It's my favorite pick because it allows, um, the patients and the communities, the flexibility to choose products that work for them. [00:04:25] Kel: Yeah. And [00:04:25] Mike Sassano: so. Um, you know, I'm in, Somai is in, in, in very young markets, market where they only have a few indications and a few products allowed in that market. Um, there's countries out there that don't allow cannabis at all. Um, and then you have Australia inside the medical, uh, markets, which, you know, allows people to really identify with their products and choose the products, uh, that work for them. You know, and, you know. When you make over 100 extract problems, uh, uh, products and you have, um, uh, over, uh, 50 different flower skews. Well, guess what? You believe that, uh, uh, uh, patients should have choice. You embrace the fact that there's a lot of choices. I heard somebody here say, Well, that's just too many in the market. I said, Well, I don't think so. I think there should be more choices for the patients. I was like, as a matter of fact, I, I would disagree with you. I would say Uh, just one of our dispensaries in the United States has more choices than that So I think uh, you know as time goes on you should have more choice, uh as In the markets. [00:05:38] Kel: Yeah, absolutely And particularly around the type of product. So whether it's say an oil or an edible for example. I know for for myself, living with endometriosis and dealing with like women's health. Things like pessaries, for example, they're becoming quite common. They're, they're compounded more often here. I don't know of any brand that's, that's just bringing them to the market, but that's just an example of, um, another kind of route of delivery of the medicine that's, that's really quite life changing, uh, for women that are dealing with chronic pelvic pain. [00:06:13] Mike Sassano: Yeah, there's no one size fits all to address these issues. I remember one doctor was telling me that, hey, I'm using a 10 for 10 for, uh, endometriosis. And I said, well, that's interesting. Why? How did you come up with that exact oral drop to to to do to test for that? I said, Do you think that a different formulation skew a different delivery device might be better? Maybe, you know, suppository format or others. And, you know, it's always very interesting, um, you know, to hear why people, you know, are choosing, um, you know, one version over the next. Um, you know, one doctor had said, Well, Do your, do your oral gums, your pastels, or whatever you may call them, will they melt at 40 degrees? And I said, probably. Um, I just, do you think at 40 degrees, uh, you need to prescribe a, a, a gummy? Or would it be better, uh, maybe our census oral drop, which has a nice fruity taste also, um, and isn't going to boil at 40 degrees? Yeah. Um, what do you think your choice should be? So You know, um, providing those options and making sure that it address, you know, uh, as many, and you have so many options to address. Well, then that person can find within that group what helps them, uh, to, to, to, uh, uh, to realize some satisfaction. [00:07:36] Kel: Yeah, that's it. And it's definitely an ongoing journey can be trial and error, but that's also part of the journey. I think as a medical cannabis patient is there's always that incremental room for growth. And as the market grows and more products come to come to the market, we become more informed hopefully of what those products are. And we kind of go on that journey together. So [00:07:59] Mike Sassano: yeah, [00:07:59] Kel: it's interesting. Yeah. [00:08:01] Mike Sassano: Yeah. Yeah. And that's right. And you know, You know, my 80 year old parents are going to, they're going to find a different way. To find that product, you know, to somebody that likes the hip hop community and inside that hip hop community if let's say a brand like Cookies or Aeropro or or Shcherbinsky's or you know, Jack Herrera or whatever name Uh, you know, attracts inside that industry and gets people to talk within that community about what helped them. Well, guess what, you know, we've done a better job reaching that community and trying to find something that helps the indication they're looking to cure. And just because it has a name or a different, uh, look, uh, you know, uh, and the key is we reached you. We found you something that helps you, you know, throughout your demographics. [00:08:55] Kel: Yeah, yeah, that's it. And I think, um, you know, like you say, culture and word of mouth and, um, and also being able to see what other people in your community are experiencing when they try something. I think that that's, um, some communities, particularly minority communities, I think, tend to trust that a lot more than, say, the conventional doctor and what they're saying. So, [00:09:17] Mike Sassano: yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Because I mean, look, let's face it, um, you know, doctors see many patients in the day, they're not going to get it right. Every single time of what the newest or best cannabis is. As a matter of fact, I surely hope they don't know the latest and greatest trend in cannabis because then they're not spending enough time taking care of patients. Um, you know, or they have like no life on the other end where they're just studying cannabis all night long. So I don't know what, what else to say. Um, you know, you know, usually within your peer group, you will find things that, that, that, you know, that can be recommended a lot quicker than you will within your doctor's group sometimes. [00:10:04] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. And I think because it's such an emerging new class of medicine as well, like you say, and, and GPs here, they're already under the pump. Everyone's gone through COVID. You know, a lot of them are still dealing with, with long COVID and burnout and, you know, it can't be expected of them to just kind of like, learn an entire new class of medicine just overnight and just, you know, add that into what they have to do anyway, every day in their prescribing. So yeah, it's, it's quite a heavy burden on them. It'll be interesting, I think, to see how, how the prescribing industry evolves over time to meet those demands of it being a new class of medicine and how that will play out in terms of how medicine's taught. It'd be good to see. Modules on this included for undergrads, um, in nursing and yeah, and medicine. [00:10:56] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I mean, like, I just, I just, uh, about a month ago I had COVID again. I don't know how many times I've had this COVID. Uh, but this time I lost my taste. So now I'm trying to work with, I'm reading all, all the research and trying to, um, take my nightly, uh, my nightly extract and add some terpenes that might be able to help and fix me. Uh, get me back my taste because I definitely do like eating, um, when I travel at the nice restaurants all over the world. And so, you know, now I get to research, you know, COVID, long COVID, and see if I can create something to help myself, um, and maybe in the future help, uh, help other people. So, you know, When you make a lot of different products, you become absorbed, uh, with all the different indications. Um, like you said earlier, I had written an article and endometriosis. I think we, we have five different products. We're, we're researching to see if they work better. Um, You know, um, different, uh, uh, for arthritis, we just recently settled on a high Beta Caryophellene terpene, uh, that seems to give people more relief, uh, both by research and by actual Prac trying it out. So I get the actual benefit of looking at whatever ails me or somebody else and trying to figure out can we make something that addresses that? Uh, does it exist within the portfolio or do we need to make something more exclusive? [00:12:26] Kel: Yeah, and it often comes from life experience, doesn't it? Like you said, like getting COVID again and experiencing those awful side effects of not being able to enjoy your food, which is just the worst because I'm the same. I love my food. And that's just, it's horrible, isn't it? When it's a joy and it's taken away from you like that. Um. Yeah, so to come up with a solution to that problem, and just on the point of, um, the Beta Caryophellene - the BCP, in my own research, and also experience as a patient, I've also found that flowers that are high in BCP are great for anti inflammatories. And I did a bit of research around why that is, um, because of the way that that particular terpene is like a major terpene, and it links to the EC2 receptors, um, in the gut. And women have a lot more nerves, um, there than men do. And that's one of the reasons why the pain could be so acute. Um, So, yeah, I've kind of geeked out over BCP a bit in terms of, um, of the effect that it can have as an anti inflammatory. Yeah, it's powerful. [00:13:35] Mike Sassano: Yeah, no, I, I, I completely agree with you and you and I have been on a, a similar path for quite a while just so you know, um, trying to figure out, um, and being able to make that, you know, um, let's say understanding. Um, of the benefit of, of, um, of beta caryophyllene. So it's, uh, uh, I've become very excited about it over the last few years and even more so. And now that people are validating it like yourself, I'm hearing that validation just makes me more positive, uh, that I, uh, that we've, we are on the right track, uh, with a, a very high beta karyophylline dominant. And so if it works, uh, for, uh, different anti inflammatory events, um, maybe that extra dose will bring, uh, uh, other indications to light. Um, you know, and although, you know, we designed it. Let's say for, um, uh, both males and females, uh, but it was more designed around pain relief of the, of the aches, uh, in common, in, in different variations of arthritis. I do agree, um, you know, that the effect on the stomach, um, definitely will open up more indications and I think I'm going to have to footnote you now after this. [00:14:48] Kel: I'm so glad we've connected on the BCP front because that's, yeah, I've been really excited about that. This past, um, six months since discovering it as a major terpene and what it can really do and then feeling the effects as well, first hand. Um, and then, yeah, I don't know how deep you want to get into terpenes, but yeah, I mean, I'd love to discuss full spectrum cannabis, which is, you know, the cornerstone of medical treatments. And it is really important that we have. I guess a more nuanced conversation about it than, than just like Indica, Sativa, THC percentage. Um, I think it's easy to get caught up in that, but um, but yeah, I think things like limonene as well, which we know can really help. with anxiety and it can have that calming effect. Um, when people are experiencing any kind of acute onset of pain, it naturally puts the body into fight or flight. And that combination of the B. C. P. And the limiting is also quite quite helpful. So I've been experimenting with You know, the complexities of like layering the terpenes and seeing how, how that works and how that affects my, my functionality throughout the day. So yeah, it's interesting. [00:16:07] Mike Sassano: Yeah, no, I, I, you know, I, uh, let's say I fell in love with limonene. I don't know if love is the right word, but I liked it so much. Um, you know, that we actually, one of the senses line, we went, we went heavy on limonene, um, you know, for that exact reason, by the way. And so, uh, the combination thereof then becomes really the science, you know, limiting plus beta karyophylline. How do those two dominant terpenes work out together? Does it solve multiple indications, singular indications, or even more indications than we imagined? And so, when you find the one, like, I think in the future, You know, um, you know, Sativas and Indicas and all those words are, are, are nice general ways where you could talk simply to people and then as people develop a better understanding of their body and why they are, why some cannabis works and why others, um, you know, it differentiates into terpenes and minor cannabinoid strengths. Um, and then you really get the precision of what truly helps you. Um, you know, and what you're actually, you may even become more in tune with your body as to what is bothering you, [00:17:18] Kel: um, [00:17:18] Mike Sassano: general terms like long COVID or endometriosis, um, maybe there's other things inside of there, right? Maybe there's stress or anxiety due to work. Maybe there's, uh, uh, other, other feelings you're trying to solve. And I think then mapping those terpenes and mapping those results, um, and also minor cannabinoids, I'll keep kind of reiterating that one too. Those, those re those reactions and those things help you to find is part of your journey. [00:17:46] Kel: Yeah, absolutely, and there's still so much to learn about the, um, you know, the other minor cannabinoids like CBG and how that can help with mood and hormone stabilization, and it's a really exciting time. I guess we're really just at the start of it, aren't we, in terms of the science behind it revealing itself? [00:18:09] Mike Sassano: Yeah, the yesterday Um, one of the locals here, uh, uh, uh, gave me a, um, a try of, of something with CBG, uh, heavily dominant CBG. Um, and I felt multiple different, uh, relief points, uh, for it. One, one happened to be, um, You know, you never know the exact reasons, but let's say I also had a feeling that it was helping, um, you know, my stomach was a little bit on edge from traveling. And so I found different feeling by being able to try it, um, as a, as a, as a majority dominant, not just a small percentage, uh, of a, of a, um, Of a vaporizer unit. I was able to kind of isolate that exact element and that feeling and I I I'm saddened because in the markets where we come from, you know, they can't we can't overweight CBG by itself But in the u. s. We have it in in Australia. They have it and I think there's there's definitely a great effect to that product and it doesn't it's not necessarily a a psychoactive ingredient. [00:19:21] Kel: Hmm, interesting. Yeah, um, I'll have to, um, I'll have to look into that a little bit more. I have, um, a CBD oil which includes CBG, um, for the, for, for like the daytime. It's like a sativa dominant one. Um, and it's, it's very helpful. It is, it's, um, Yeah, you do notice the difference. It's it's true. And I think it does help you create more self awareness and mind. It really helps on the mindfulness front to be in tune with your body. To that extent, it kind of forces you to slow down, which I think is a good thing for a lot of us who were kind of running around in this, in this busy world. Sometimes it's good to just take a breath and check in with the body. We spend so much time in our heads. I think it's um, it's a good practice. [00:20:09] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I think the world is, you know, I think there's different stages of our development in the world. And, um, you know, at one point, let's say in our development, if they said here, here's a pill, take this, um, you know, Uh, we were, we were all led to believe that that's the only way that we could go. Um, the doctor told you to take this, you must take this, take this pill once a day for the rest of your life. And, you know, um, as, as generations went by, they started to look at that and question it. And Herb You know, herbal, uh, medicines that have been around for centuries before Big Pharma came around. Um, you know, herbal, uh, technologies became more mainstream. And then people started looking more deeper. And I would say even the cannabis industry, uh, created this retrospective and introspective moments where we actually concentrate on our bodies and what exactly is inside that cannabis or what is inside that extract that is making me feel good. Is it the right one? And how do I keep searching out that feeling? Um, you know, inside and looking at what you put in and how it reacts with your body, I think is where we're at and where we're going in the future. And it's less about, hey, pop this every day till till the end. It's more of a journey that you're on. [00:21:30] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. It's a lot more of, um, a holistic experience as well. Um, and, and genuinely healing experience because, um, you know, a lot of these pills that you say we've, we've been popping for the past century or so, they just mask pain. They, uh, you know, cannabis modulates it, and that's a big difference. And, um, my partner, I'll be candid, um, she has endometriosis, and she's had a pretty bad flare up these past few days. But to see her overcome it from home without having to go to ED, without having to, you know, be on fentanyl and, and, and take medical cannabis and, and just take care of herself here is extraordinary. Um, to think where she was three days ago to, to now she's, she's back on her feet and she's got color in her face again. I just don't think that kind of transformation and turnaround is really possible with, conventional medicine. But yet the stigma seems to remain, a significant challenge globally, including in Australia, and yeah, I'd love to get your take on what role you think education and transparent communication really play in reducing stigma, and how, how you think, We can all contribute to these efforts. [00:22:45] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I think we should be allowed to have a bigger megaphone and be able to blast out these messaging like what you just said. If you have something that's debilitating and Big Pharma is telling you I'm going to give you something that's more debilitating - are you really helping them, you know, is that really the path you want to be on? And if nobody is allowed to counter, um, you know, that, Hey, look, you know, there's an alternative to you going fentanyl. There's an alternative to you going oxycodone. And if you don't have that megaphone to bring into that educational sphere, Big Pharma is out speaking to the world. Right? Yeah, they have more money to speak and to get that messaging out and they can prevent educational information or they can make it regulations for cannabis much harder. But at the end of the day, if you read, if you watch what's going on in the US, let me tell you something that's going on. The HHS, the FDA has come out two times already this year with reports and said that cannabis is safer than all the alternatives in the market, helps at least and they use the word least 15 indications and they just did a eight step process, which is for the approval of any medical drug. And they said the downside of cannabis both addictive wise and others, if you can say there is that, is the same and comparable with caffeine. That is the largest health organisation in the world putting that in writing. And on the other side you see the negative influences coming in trying to stop that material from reaching the public trying to suppress those documentations [00:24:34] Kel: Yeah [00:24:34] Mike Sassano: and trying to uh, not Uh, at least take cannabis from a schedule one to a schedule three, um, you know, which it seems with us in the community who know exactly or the help of cannabis, well, it seems silly to say that it has no medical benefit, not just silly. It seems almost, uh, insane that That you can't make that determination at this point of, of, of, of decades of research and the government, HHS, FDA is saying the exact thing. And then the DEA is saying, no, no, no. We think it's dangerous. Well, what, what, from what, where's your evidence? Or when doctors tell me I don't have enough evidence, well, there's over 35, 000 research reports. Not one of them, uh, not one of them indicating that cannabis isn't better than the alternatives in the market. As a matter of fact, every single one of them points to a better alternative, including all regulators in the world. So why isn't our education and words getting out? As you might imagine, this is a very passionate topic for me. [00:25:39] Kel: Yes, yes, yeah, I guess as it should be, because as a leader in this space, you're facing a lot of resistance, and you've got to be passionate, and this isn't a place for complacency, is it, or apathy, it's um Yeah, it's a push. Like you say, they've got so much power, so much money, and they're so established and baked into the way we do healthcare. Full stop. It's, it's um, yeah, it's a real seismic shift, isn't it? [00:26:09] Mike Sassano: Yep, it is. It is. And if I, you know Being in this industry for almost 17 years now, you know, I've seen so many variations And and there's nobody who's going to tell me cannabis doesn't help it. I don't care who you are You know, I was with a regulator that was very staunch and I came in with all this these data And I said, I'm not going to regurgitate this to you. I'm going to leave this on your desk. And you can imagine how silly it's going to sound when you tell me that there's no data to say there's medical benefit. And I dumped, uh, it was about one and a half feet tall of just documentation. I said, this is your, my present to you because you're never going to convince me of this. [00:26:50] Kel: That's amazing. I'm not here. I'm [00:26:51] Mike Sassano: sometimes I'm not here to convince you because your mind is closed But here's all the people that benefit if they can benefit it's up to you not to get in their way [00:27:02] Kel: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Just don't get in people's ways. That's it. Nobody's trying to brainwash the public or make everyone take cannabis. It's like, we just don't get in people's ways when they're trying to access it and trying to learn more about how that can help their, their health. And really, it's just shameful how Conventional medicine continues to fail the population. And really, I think that's the thing they're scared of really admitting is that, yeah, they're massive failures and the reasons why people are leaving them and moving over to alternative medicine. People wouldn't even be exploring it if, if, um, pills worked, you know, so, yeah, [00:27:44] Mike Sassano: well, I call it out very Very strong, you know, and it won't matter, you know, if they're, uh, what their regulatory position is, um, you know, it's just clear, uh, you have two ways you can look at this, you know, either somehow, um, uh, somehow you have some, uh, belief not founded in medicine or big pharma's got you twisted. It's one of two reasons why you don't, uh, uh, look at the safety standards of, of cannabis and ask yourself, for whatever reason it is that you are not allowing this to happen, so be it. It's your choice. inside your brain. On the other side, if somebody can benefit, right, why stand in their way if you believe that there is a benefit to it? You don't have to, you don't have to violate whatever ideas are in your brain by just staying off the negative. You don't have to be a promoter, but you can't be the negative side of this equation and get some respect from me. [00:28:47] Kel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What motivates you to keep advocating for change in this space, Mike? Like you said, you've been here for 17 years, um, pushing for change. Uh, what, what motivates you? [00:29:03] Mike Sassano: I mean, uh, You have to see the other end of what I see, you know, and I get messages online I get messages sent for years You know, some of them, you know, some of them are, you know, one side or the other But when you get positive messages in the industry of people that are helped and can you Mike, you know Can you work on as an example, we were talking other eyes Um, you know something with beta caryophyllene, something with limonene. Can you work on something with this? You know, I have this. Can you take a look into Long COVID. Can you take into Look into this. Is there something you would recommend? And many of the times i'm able to recommend something that's in the market, right? Like this looks like it might be helpful. Let me know how it goes Um, you know And, you know, when I came over to the global markets, you know, I just kept making more and more products because I just couldn't imagine, um, you know, another product that couldn't help somebody like they need more limonene. They need more Barry to carry awfully. They need more. Um, you know, whatever it is, um, they need another variation. They need another delivery device Yeah, [00:30:18] Kel: you know [00:30:18] Mike Sassano: this delivery device doesn't isn't isn't going to get them where where this group needs And the more I kept going the more I kept making More products and more Uh, more variations and I couldn't stop at some point like there had the point came where okay, I was looking at the rosins and the resins and I was saying to myself, what's after this? And then I said, I said, More rosins and more resins, more strains. So then I couldn't stop there, so I was like, Okay, we can't come out with too many of these, So let's, let's just come out with three strains of rosin and three different strains of resins, you know? And then it became a pheno hunt of strains. And then I said, Okay, we've done that. So now 2025 and 2026, or sorry, 2026, what's the new lineup for the phenos? I was just sent that out the other day. I was like, so what's our new line of phenos? So now I need to have more phenos for 26. And so it's kind of this never ending processes. It's not that you're trying to make, I don't know how to say this right, but okay. It's not like, You know, this is the best it's this is the this is the best variety. I can find you. This is the best flower. I could find you with the best technique to make the Ross and I can't say this one is the best, but I did the best I can to find the, you know, great strains and I did the right processing and I gave you three versions. Did you like those three versions? Did you not? Did you find one that worked for you inside of that? Did you not? Okay, great. I have three more versions coming for you that I think you might like to try. And so, you know, it becomes kind of this never ending, uh, quest to reach every demographic with every kind of product that can be formed in the best and most ethical manner you can make it in. And at some degree it's, it's all has to do with choice of flower and choice of technology. You know, process. And if you think about it like that, then it's almost infinite, right? Cause flower strains change. People's desires change. Uh, technology keeps getting better for, from the extracted side as an example. Um, you know. What we made 15 years ago, I can tell you, um, it was kind of like you were, you know, extracts are made kind of like you made brownies at home. You would warm up the product in some fatty, uh, uh, solution, um, an oil or some fatty solution. Then you would centrifuge it and you would, you know, put that into, into your whatever, gummy or, or vape or whatever, you know, RSO was a very early form product, you know, and it was a very crude extraction process. So basic, but helped so many, right? And then as time went on, that technology got better and better and better. Um, you know, I remember years ago. These CO2 guys came from the perfume industry. They had never extracted any cannabis before in their life. But the theory was sound. And then suddenly we're all CO2 extracting one day. One day it was, they were making perfumes. The next day they were making cannabis. Well, that technology also changed. And changed dramatically. And then, you know, ethanol came in. And then suddenly we were saying, Well, isn't this hydrocarbon better? Is it, you know? Then we would roll back to the natural version of rosin extraction and say, No, that's better. Or, is there a place for all of this? Does this appeal to this person? Does that appeal? And once you realise that it all has an appeal to a different person, then you find out that there's actually a place for everything in there. And then you can't stop and then it becomes addictive to make more and more products as best as you can because more and more people are being helped and it's almost, you almost can't get off that treadmill once you're on it. [00:34:41] Kel: Yeah, yeah, it's a real, um, equity quest that you seem to be on there, Mike. Like, we really value equity and unity on the, on the podcast and the idea that everyone's an individual and they need different things and whilst there might be similarities and, and, and generalities, there's always going to be things that just work for you that don't work for the next person. And, even if you have the same condition and yeah, I can see how it can just like, you know expand out the way it does for you. It's just mushrooms into more and more variants. Um, but you know, everyone's got different needs really [00:35:17] Mike Sassano: yeah, it's it's almost you know, I can't find my way off the treadmill to be honest with you Um, now even with this, with this call, I have to tell you, I'm going to, I'm relooking, you know, I'm thinking to myself, relooking at, at, uh, at these, at these, uh, uh, how we're doing the endometriosis, uh, choice and saying, look, I think we need to try and get this off of the shelf and get this into the market. There's just too many people, um, you know, that are suffering over this. And then now they're being swayed to fentanyl. Which is like hearing that just blows my mind. Like I need to be, I need to help. I can't sit around on the sidelines after hearing that. [00:35:57] Kel: Thanks, Mike. I feel like I've actually done something useful by sharing that. I'm really, I'm really glad that we've connected today. I really am. I'm really grateful for your time and that I got to share that with someone who's actually willing to listen and take some action. Um, with that, that's in a position to do so, so yeah, I really think that could really help. [00:36:20] Mike Sassano: Yeah, this is uh, but this is exactly what, what ends up happening with me. I, I just can't sit on the sidelines. [00:36:27] Kel: Yeah. It's just [00:36:28] Mike Sassano: not gonna happen. [00:36:29] Kel: Yeah, yeah. [00:36:29] Mike Sassano: Whether I get it right or I at least try and keep improving and get it right the next time or get it right the next time, I'll keep going, you know, because, uh, it's important. And so I, you know, you know, we'll just, we, we just got to keep going. And sometimes, you know, like my production teams, they're, they say, look, you know, Mike, you know, we're at 138 extracted stabilized EU GMP products, you know, isn't that enough. And I say, it'll be enough once I hear enough feedback. You know, and we're reaching all the demographics that need to be reached. And like with the marketing teams, I said, look, you know, SOMAI is a pharmaceutical brand, it will remain for the very strict countries. Uh, very strict pharmaceutical brand, but you need to also reach, you know, different demographics with different branding because it's not like making, uh, you know, great product or growing great product is strictly for, uh, uh, Merck and Pfizer. You know, it's for, it's for, you know, hip hop or for whatever, whatever, uh, demographic you're in. And so if you're not reaching the public with your, with your messaging, well, maybe you need to reach out with a different branding, you know, and explain to the people why this is useful for whatever it is and whatever indication they're at. And don't stop ever. Until your message gets out there and those people are cured. So no production team. I'm not ready to stop making products yet Sorry, I haven't gotten there yet. I don't have enough data. [00:38:05] Kel: I Love that. I love that I mean like you said Mike a lot of people are suffering you wouldn't even have to be thinking about this if there wasn't so Many sadly demographics that are in pain whether it's chronic pain cancer pain so many people Um, uh, suffering and in pain, and we've got to ask ourselves why, but also when are we going to actually really do something to truly transform the healthcare system? And that's where I'd love to kind of, um, end the conversation. Um, on your vision for the future and if you could envisage like an ideal health care system where medical cannabis is fully accepted, integrated, where people are getting the right products for their pain and conditions, um, what do you think that would look like and realistically how far away do you reckon we are from achieving it? [00:38:56] Mike Sassano: Yeah, it's a complicated question, right? Um, You know, I see so many variations of, uh, regulatory medicines, and so, and I see the pluses and minuses of them all. Like, let me give you an example of what I mean by what I'm saying. In the U. S. market, pretty much anything goes, any drug can be advertised, and anything can be prescribed almost immediately. But now you have a culture that's addicted to pills. Um, you know, they're creating chronic diseases because, uh, they're a cheat. They're just giving you a pill for everything. And suddenly you have almost the use at a, at a children's age. They're eight to 12 percent use of very serious pains, uh, because, you know, they're the ADHD and other things are overly prescribed and overly diagnosed. So there's a very extreme market. You know, that's, you know, taking a lot of the pills. Is that freedom very positive? I would say, look, it's impossible to dissect medical freedom. Um, but there should come with medical education. So I, I tend to, to be on the side that you should have medical freedom. But. There needs to be a robust educational network and it cannot come from the pharmaceuticals and we cannot snuff out education from proper ways of getting out there because people are going to get the word on Reddit or the internet. And so, if we become trusted sources, you know, to educate, uh, not the negative sources online trying to de educate and reprogram people to only stick to the old fashioned view of how medicine has to be prescribed and diagnosed, um, Then I believe the metamorphosis, uh, can be complete where there's a freedom of medicine but an education on the other side. And I'll give you an example. I take some time every year just to, uh, clean my system. Um, not just for you know, cleaning from whatever eating or drinking or whatever, you know, uh things, you know I'm doing on a regular basis, but to actually do a little bit of a cannabis cleaning myself also now It's not the most enjoyable thing I do. Um, you know, just like you know, okay I'm not going to eat meat this month or i'm not going to Um drink alcohol this month or whatever it is. You're trying to clean from um, it's never going to be a perfectly enjoyable experience um, however What it keeps is, is my, my, uh, my dosaging and how much I take, uh, keeps it at a lower amount than if I keep increasing and gaining a tolerance over it. So it keeps, um, it keeps my dosaging in a, in a nice zone over the course of. whatever decades I've been doing it, um, and at least edibles now for the last eight years, uh, my dosage will go up and then after the cleaning, I could bring it back down. Now, you know, that's a freedom, uh, that, that I enjoy. And when I travel from country to country, sometimes I don't have that freedom and I'm forced to not take, uh, the cannabis, uh, when I would like to take it. So I was in Japan and there was no cannabis there. Well, I can say that was a forced cleaning that was not so enjoyable for me. so, you know, maybe I'm not gonna, even though I love Tokyo, I love Japan, I love the culture, I love the, I love everything about Japan. I like skiing in Japan. But you know what? I don't think I'm going to be going back to Japan if I can't pursue Uh, you know, the product that makes me, uh, enjoy my sleep, um, you know, gives me a good calm. So maybe I won't, uh, be there, as much as I love that country. Maybe, you know, uh, maybe that's the right approach. You know, maybe people need to know that. We're, we're just not going to tolerate no, uh, freedom, uh, to have your medicine if it's considered safe and we can get a good educational program out there. And I should be allowed to talk more to people. I should not be stifled by regulators. I don't have any bad feelings for people that I want to addict them to oxycodones or fentanyls or things that are killing people. I have no, no feelings for that, but I should have a bigger voice than them. I should be allowed to speak and educate everywhere I can, uh, as to the goodness, uh, and pe that people are receiving from cannabis and, and the, the, the nature of how to use cannabis right. You know, my voice should be bigger than Big Pharma's. You know, all of our voices should be. And we should overwhelm the airwaves with it. [00:43:38] Kel: Yeah, yeah. I think that's, that's the way, isn't it? It's going to take a collective effort and a strength in numbers, definitely. [00:43:48] Mike Sassano: Yeah, if we just, look, we all You know, I try to tell people there's no competitors in this industry. We're all partners and we're all friends in the same technique. Now, of course, not everybody plays in the same level playing field, um, as, as I would like them to. Um, but at the end of the day, we're all in one boat. And guess what? There's Big Pharma got that their thumb on the scale. There's no reason, there's no rational reason I can think of that in the United States, we're a schedule one drug, which means the same as heroin. You know, you can't tell me cannabis is the same as heroin. I don't care what crazy town you come from, there's no way that any of your experience or your knowledge is going to make sense to me to tell me that cannabis is the same as heroin. That's just crazy. And anybody who repeats that sounds crazy to me. [00:44:46] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. Even [00:44:47] Mike Sassano: my 80 year old parents who are as conservative as they come, you know, understand cannabis and take cannabis, you know, and they're like come from a whole nother world of generations, you know? [00:44:59] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. My Nana is 90. Um, and she's been exploring it. She's been exploring CBD, um. Yeah, but then that's a whole nother realm, isn't it? Because she's quite tech savvy for her age, for 90 she's got a mobile phone, but the people in her care home don't have access to the internet the same way, and they're, you know, it's like, how do we make sure that they get access too? Because not everyone does have the internet. So yeah, that's a whole nother conversation for another day, but yeah. [00:45:30] Mike Sassano: Send me over to their home. I'm going to go over there and do a do an educational seminar for them. I'm sure that that's what I would like to do. I'm sure that yeah. Let me let me carry the internet voice in the fashion that they know how to. And I will go out there personally myself and do this for them. Because you know that all my parents friends have found some dosage that makes sense for them. Whether it's the high CBD or a very, very, very, very light. THC CBD dose, you know, um, because, you know, as they're older, you got to, they're more sensitive to these. And so they need to find something that makes sense for them because if they can enjoy their life a little bit better and decrease the big pharma pills that they're being forced to take 12, 15, 20 a day. Well, great. Here, add another one and tell me if you feel a little better. [00:46:20] Kel: Exactly. Exactly. They deserve to have a better quality of life as well, you know? [00:46:26] Mike Sassano: Yeah. Especially after living 90 years, right? [00:46:30] Kel: Yes! It's not about that. [00:46:32] Mike Sassano: What? They, they, they, they've been, they've, they, they were brainwashed for so damn long that cannabis was bad, right? That it took years of me being in the business for my parents to warm up with it and to try it. Uh, you know, and to find what it meant for them, they did it on their own, not because I told them to, but they did it on their own to say, what is this? You know, our doctor gives us all these pills. What is this? What is it? Tell me about CBD. And they were alert. They were online learning themselves. I think this sounds right for me. I want to try it. [00:47:07] Kel: Yeah. Yeah, that's so beautiful. It's, it's so, yeah, and how have you seen a transformation in them since they've started doing that? Have you noticed a shift? [00:47:17] Mike Sassano: I think they're all quite happy. I mean, Yeah. We all see the transformation for ourselves. Right. It doesn't, just because you got older doesn't mean you can't benefit. The only thing that, that changed is the mentality, right? The educational level. So in their mind, they had to surcome to an age that told them, by the way, when they were growing up, they said, smoking is good. Smoking cigarettes is great for you. And people smoked everywhere. There were no non smoking zones. It was smoke as much as you can because it's going to help your health. Can you imagine that's the era they came from? [00:47:54] Kel: Yeah, yeah, well, it was like cool and sexy to be like, yeah, a young woman smoking like, [00:48:00] Mike Sassano: yeah, [00:48:02] Kel: crazy. But [00:48:02] Mike Sassano: it was, but it was, it was even more, it was a benefit to your health. Can you imagine? It's not just It's not just sexy, you know. You're gonna get a husband if you smoke this. It was actually also healthy. [00:48:17] Kel: It's gonna help your lungs, yeah. Oh my god. It's unbelievable, isn't it? I mean, you watch shows like Mad Men and you see like the advertising behind it, you know, where they do the whole It's Toasted campaign. I think it's for Marlborough and just, yeah, just the response they got from that was like yeah, everyone's like, oh wow, yeah, it's toasted. [00:48:39] Mike Sassano: Yeah, [00:48:40] Kel: well, [00:48:40] Mike Sassano: I mean, you know, they're They can remember like even all the times, you know, and even in our generations like like they told us Uh, okay, you know stop using paper bags um use plastic bags because the paper bags are gonna Are gonna kill the environment by killing all the trees. Well then they realized plastic bags weren't so good. So they said, okay, stop using plastic bags, go this way. If we followed every genera every If we followed the medical trends over the last hundred years, you would be in shock. Like you would, you would stop following, you know, them and you would be on your own path and probably you would pick a path of cannabis, um, you know, before you tried a million other drugs, you know, even recently I had hurt my neck and it was, you know, and I went to the doctors and they said, here's a prescription of oxycodone is going to make you feel great and I looked at him and I go, okay. Do you know what this stuff does? Like, you know, well, don't worry. We're not going to give you another prescription, so you're not going to get addicted to it. And I saw, what does that mean? Like, you know, give me a break. Come on. [00:49:50] Kel: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's just no aftercare. There's no considering the long term effects. Just off you go, get some pills. [00:50:00] Mike Sassano: Yep, [00:50:01] Kel: yep. [00:50:02] Mike Sassano: See you in a few months, let me know how it goes and if you need a refill, I'll give you a refill. And guess what? If you give me a bunch of Oxycodone and you give me a refill and my personality is such that I like that and I can keep using that well, I may never stop, just so you know. It's just very possible, [00:50:23] Kel: you [00:50:24] Mike Sassano: know? [00:50:24] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. Such a dangerous path that people can end up going down through no fault of their own. Just a careless system, really, that's not evolved. And yeah, we're definitely due a revolution, that's for sure. [00:50:39] Mike Sassano: Yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt, but we'll get there. We've come such great strides and as, as down as like, you know, when I'm in every, every local area that I go to, cause I travel a lot, educating doctors and pharmacists, every single. Every locality says, Oh, I wish we could get better. I wish they, and when I come to Australia, I go, guys you need to realise how great you really got it. Let me tell you some other countries and some horror stories, you know, like Ireland, you know, Uh, you know, they, they're just starting to realize that GPs can prescribe and it's not just for multiple sclerosis and cancer three and epilepsy, you know, there's other indications like pain and different categories of pain, you know, but they, they, they, they couldn't get it before they had to go to the illicit market, which is fine. At least they're getting it somewhere, but why can't they or spain? You could walk into any social club there and get it from the illicit market Product, it's not uh, you know from the medical markets, but you can't get medical products still this year It'll change but imagine that like, you know, you're like all why would the medical? Department. Why can you get it at any social club, but you can't get it at a medical club. I mean, to some degree, I think that's, that's actually quite good, but you know, still, it's not like my 80 year old parents are going to walk into a, a medical and a social club, you know, their, their product, you know, um, they do like their bud tenders now in the United States. So they don't talk to their doctor anymore. They like they have their local bud tenders. They like, so I'm like, okay, if you like them, I'm glad they're helping you. Yeah. Yeah. Honey, we don't need your advice. We got our local bud tender. She's really, she's really smart. And I'm like, great. I'm glad you found somebody you like. [00:52:29] Kel: Yeah. If it's enriching their life, then why not? Oh Mike, I've really enjoyed our conversation today. I'm really grateful for your time. I'm, really looking forward to sharing it with our audience and um, you've given me a lot of food for thought So thank you so much I'm glad we connected. [00:52:43] Mike Sassano: Yeah. Thanks for enjoying it and letting me spread the word and uh having your interest come visit us come tour with us over to our facility If you make it to Lisbon, if I'm in one of your cities, me. let's meet one of these days. [00:52:55] Kel: That sounds good Thanks so much. Mike. I hope you have a good rest of your trip and definitely be in touch. See you soon. Mike. Take care. wraps up today's conversation with Mike Sassano, CEO of We've explored a lot today, including the global impacts of SOMAI and their growth, their commitment to innovating within the space, and receiving feedback and doing something with that, and taking actions to make patients lives better, and the ethical considerations that come with the medical industry. These are just a few topics that we'll continue to unpack on the podcast. And if you enjoyed today's discussion, like, subscribe until next time, I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. Get full access to Phoenix Sound by Kel Myers at phoenixsound.substack.com/subscribe [https://phoenixsound.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

14. mars 2025 - 53 min