Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

Law, Liberty, and Cass (Sunstein)

Introducing this Q&A, I say, … our guest today is Cass Sunstein, the law professor, the legal thinker, the writer. For many years, he taught at the University of Chicago, and for many years since, he has taught at Harvard. He has written a profusion of books, to go with countless articles—though maybe someone has counted them. His latest books, I believe, are On Liberalism: In Defense of Freedom [https://www.amazon.com/Liberalism-Defense-Cass-R-Sunstein/dp/0262049775/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1YH3ADQSV2NAO&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.96Xo3LciH8wkE2Exg4rgIKBtPgLdv1xGSRcIj6n42V7txWUTsdbts9rhC_PffyIsLYNOQ59P4mhTtdrGMDMi0KYHbJ9G-2qPk2-Dt22u6_u2i4pYUyCLSxVbocKJAAfH3r9uU2EtDXdwfR8iCjKOUD-lEBjZ22qy0Gl8J81XQUbQC0kY_3nFXjDnaqgUZ6Xw8916EXVKTZ51tk2xl1xAMQQQ1ArbfWidO8SgFaoA12Q.eGa7pjKjqrtX1aKjKTD_ZPFjw37UgLs1P5cdkCzR1lg&dib_tag=se&keywords=On+Liberalism%3A+In+Defense+of+Freedom&qid=1776805104&sprefix=on+liberalism+in+defense+of+freedom%2Caps%2C295&sr=8-1] and Separation of Powers: How to Preserve Liberty in Troubled Times [https://www.amazon.com/Separation-Powers-Preserve-Liberty-Troubled/dp/026205177X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1LGYBJC63Z94Z&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.2wy9Nzeal4TyvgvD9ZdxC-6WCx1hEMI3M0cc-bEZrSnx5T2GzpX9JuiEjsmRt979PcvflsGdW1kYslbRNyp90guerLageNUafXNeoY9-rkKz-MQfiu4lZA7ruYF5VLkB.GyFrCWk0EeQb6mEFNu7LhE3C0UAI3l-Md-jnm4OGWH0&dib_tag=se&keywords=Separation+of+Powers%3A+How+to+Preserve+Liberty+in+Troubled+Times&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1776805129&sprefix=separation+of+powers+how+to+preserve+liberty+in+troubled+times%2Caps%2C161&sr=8-1]. Professor Sunstein is also a Substacker. His Substack is called, straightforwardly enough, “Cass’s Substack [https://casssunstein.substack.com/].” Truth in advertising. It is delightful and nutritious, time after time. Toward the top of our program, we spend some time on liberalism—beginning with what it is, what we mean by it. In his book on liberalism, Sunstein isn’t talking about the policy preferences of George McGovern or Barack Obama. He’s talking about the liberalism of the American founding, a liberalism that encompasses Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan, et al. The “holy trinity” of liberalism, says Sunstein, is “the rule of law, pluralism, and freedom.” Hey, what’s “the rule of law”? Sunstein gives a very clear explication of that as well. As for the separation of powers—how’s that going in these United States? Sunstein points out something interesting: Congressmen “have been more protective of their own party’s president than of their own institution.” And this is something the Framers “didn’t anticipate.” In 2020, David French published a book called “Divided We Fall: America’s Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation [https://www.amazon.com/Great-American-Divorce-Country-Apart_And/dp/1250201977].” Let me quote from my review [https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/12/the-great-american-divorce/] of it: French is doing his best to make an academic paper famous. He has cited it in his speeches for years, and he devotes a chapter to it in his book. He says that the paper does no less than “explain America.” If there is one point in the book to understand, he says, it is the point of the paper. What is this blockbuster piece of writing? Published in 1999, it’s “The Law of Group Polarization,” by Cass Sunstein … And what is its point? French boils it down to these simple words: “When people of like mind gather, they tend to become more extreme.” This extremism can lead to nasty words on social media, sure. It can also lead to a lot more. In our Q&A, Professor Sunstein expounds. His sport is squash, and he has a reputation for it. I ask, “Are you a professional or a top amateur?” He will allow the following and no more: “Well, I’d say an avid squash player. I’ve played in professional tournaments but haven’t done particularly well in them, so I consider myself an enthusiast and not incompetent.” At the end of our conversation, we say a quick goodbye—because he is “due on the court,” as he says. I have written many times about Robert Conquest [https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/09/robert-conquest-appreciation/], the historian and poet (and a friend of mine, I’m lucky to say). I once asked him (something like), “What are you?” In other words, “How would you describe yourself politically?” In the course of his answer, he brought up Orwell: who spoke of “law and liberty.” The “law-and-liberty lands.” Bob said, “I’m for a law-and-liberty culture.” So, indeed, is Cass Sunstein, who is a superb interlocutor, a superb teacher. You will see and hear. Q&A is the podcast of this site, Onward and Upward. The site is supported by readers and listeners. To receive new articles and episodes—and to support the work of the writer and podcaster—become a free or paid subscriber. Many thanks to you. Get full access to Onward and Upward at www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe [https://www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

The Rule of Law, a.k.a. the Ballgame

Our latest guest on Q&A is a “legal eagle,” as I say in my introduction. He is Gregg Nunziata, the executive director of SRL—the Society for the Rule of Law. The organization serves an important purpose. Gregg worked in the Justice Department. And for the Senate Judiciary Committee. And for the Senate Republican Policy Committee. And for Senator Marco Rubio. And so on. He was in the heart of the Republican legal world. These days, he has one overriding concern: to defend the rule of law. Yes, and that’s a fine overriding concern to have. At the outset of our Q&A, I ask Gregg, “What is the rule of law?” I will paraphrase his answer (though closely): I think the rule of law, most basically, is the idea of fair play—that we, as citizens, as individuals, live in a system that has rules for resolving disputes. For most of human history, the weak have been at the mercy of the strong, or the whim of a leader. That is still true for most of the world today. The rule of law is a great equalizer that puts all this aside and says, “We’re going to resolve our differences peacefully and through process.” … Everything that human beings value—everything that Americans value and maybe take for granted—rests on the rule of law. Prosperity, physical security, our liberties—it all depends on the rule of law. My remark is, “Yes, it’s kind of the ballgame” (and I’m not so sure about the “kind of”). The Society for the Rule of Law [https://societyfortheruleoflaw.org] was founded by a bunch of conservative Republicans, basically, who were concerned about what was happening on “the legal right,” as Gregg Nunziata says, and on the right generally. What was happening? Well, you know: a collapse of principle. Gregg and I talk a bit about his upbringing, his education, his formation. In the 1980s, there were two people who made a deep, deep impression on him: a president, Ronald Reagan, and a Supreme Court justice, Antonin Scalia. After 9/11, Gregg wanted to work in government somehow—and he eventually got to Washington. About one of the people he worked for, I tell him the following: Marco Rubio may have been my favorite politician in America—certainly top five. I have no idea who he is. There’s “no there there.” I have a better grasp on Lindsey Graham! I have no idea who Marco Rubio is, except for the ambition part. And I absolutely adored him. Gregg says, I worked for three senators directly. I worked with many others, but with three directly. The first, I respected; the second, I loved; but the third, I believed in. The first was Arlen Specter, from Pennsylvania. The second was John Thune, who is now the majority leader. And the third was Marco Rubio. … I really believed in him and his vision. I worked closely with him for four years, and very much wanted him to win the presidential nomination in 2016. A part of me died that year. I mean, it was really disillusioning. Gregg remembers a fellow who “would speak really, really eloquently about the power of democracy, about the importance of international alliances, about the importance of USAID …” Yeah. At some point, Gregg and I talk about the Justice Department. I had always understood it to be an institution serving the country as a whole. Now it is simply the president’s legal shop—an instrument of his will. They have hung a banner of him—of his visage—on the department itself, physically. Gregg says: “civic blasphemy.” He also says that lawyers working for the government once understood themselves to be lawyers first, meaning that they told the president when something was undoable because it was unlawful. Autres temps, autres mœurs. Gregg says, I hear regularly from conservative law students that the law doesn’t matter, that we live in a post-legal regime, a post-constitutional regime, or that everything is just about power. Or you hear that law is just an elaborate ruse of the Left to suppress traditionalism and Western civilization. If you can’t count on a conservative law student to believe in law, you’re in a rough spot. … I’m just scandalized by the radicalism we see in the Republican Party and from young self-styled conservative intellectuals who don’t want to conserve a thing but want to burn everything down. That worldview has been wrong since Paris in 1789. Yet Gregg does not despair—and he works every day toward “American renewal,” as he puts it. For my money, Gregg Nunziata is one of the most important lawyers in the country. He could be at a high, high echelon of power, in the Republican Party, in the Trump administration. All he had to do was play along. Instead, he heads this Society for the Rule of Law. I’m grateful for the guy, and I know you’ll enjoy getting to know him. Q&A is the podcast of this site, Onward and Upward. The site is supported by readers and listeners. To receive new articles and episodes—and to support the work of the writer and podcaster—become a free or paid subscriber. Many thanks to you. Get full access to Onward and Upward at www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe [https://www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Political Worlds, Old and New

Charlie Sykes is a veteran journalist, of a conservative bent. He is a writer and broadcaster. Find Charlie at To the Contrary [https://charliesykes.substack.com/], his Substack. On Q&A, he and I have had a meaty, wide-ranging chat. He is a Wisconsinite, whose father was a newspaperman. “I always thought of the daily newspaper as a daily miracle,” says Charlie. I thought the same thing, by the way. When Charlie was in eighth grade, his dad was the Wisconsin campaign manager for Eugene McCarthy’s presidential campaign. Charlie traveled around the state that year. He was immersed in politics—the affairs of the nation and world—at an early age. Incidentally, Charlie’s father would move rightward, and so would Charlie himself. Charlie always had a zest for politics. So did I. Has this zest worn off, for both of us? Do we derive the same pleasure from politics—the debates, the rough-and-tumble, the game—that we once did? No. But it is our duty to hang in there, says Charlie: to make the points that need making, and to take the stands that need taking. In this Q&A, we spend a little time on the Iran war. I want to know: Was it worth it? And is “was” the right tense? I hope it was worth it; I’m not sure it was. We then talk about the world we inhabited for so long: conservative journalism, right-of-center politics. Dramatic changes have taken place in that general world. The conservatism of the past has been replaced by the right-wing populism of today. I confess to Charlie that the shock has not quite worn off for me—though I have had at least ten years to adjust, which is more than enough. On this as on all other subjects, Charlie has interesting things to say—frank and thoughtful at the same time. Some people claim that you can draw a straight line from our kind of conservatism—what Charlie Sykes and I have long argued from and advocated—to today. He and I both say: nuts. We get into the touchy subject of racism a little. And also the subject of tribalism. The “call of the tribe,” as Mario Vargas Llosa says [https://www.amazon.com/Call-Tribe-Mario-Vargas-Llosa/dp/0374118051/ref=sr_1_1?crid=TTEX37AGIJWP&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.i2EshnJQKvyj-JQY-jfasccPHivMgBV0vHB-Tliy5nr6Q8bedDOehOz4-60GzCPsGbiU5uR85JDT3luM9V1_HA.nxcE5YpGGod1hwDRylT62NCzGZnZSSGHSHC3lbaY-U8&dib_tag=se&keywords=call+of+the+tribe+vargas+llosa&qid=1775766732&sprefix=call+of+the+tribe+vargas+llo%2Caps%2C176&sr=8-1]. Tribalism seems to be natural in man—and bless all those who overcome it. I know what it is to hate one’s political enemies. I stuck with Reagan through everything—Iran-contra, Bitburg … I loved him, yes, but, even more, I hated his enemies. You can’t bear for the “other side” to win, even for a second. As I say on this program, I half-believed the conspiracy theories about Bill Clinton: the Mena airport, Vince Foster, Webb Hubbell … I half-believed the “birther” theory about Barack Obama. What are the conspiracy theories about Donald Trump? I’m not sure there are any. Everything is out in the open—often trumpeted and bragged about! In our discussion, Charlie Sykes and I talk about Rush Limbaugh: his influence, his legacy. Also, the media today. What does “the media” mean, by the way? Does the term make sense any longer? Does anyone sit down at 6:30 for the evening news—with Rather, Brokaw, or Jennings? Anyway, you will want to hear Charlie, on our various topics. Before we close, we talk about refuges from politics. Charlie lives in the Wisconsin woods and “touches grass” every day. In New York, I may not touch grass much, but they do have mats at the golf range. Thanks for listening. Q&A is the podcast of this site, Onward and Upward. The site is supported by readers and listeners. To receive new articles and episodes—and to support the work of the writer and podcaster—become a free or paid subscriber. Many thanks to you. Get full access to Onward and Upward at www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe [https://www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Freedom on Her Face

Yaqiu Wang has devoted her life to the cause of human rights in China. It is a great and important cause. She has worked for Freedom House, Human Rights Watch, and the Committee to Protect Journalists. Currently, she is a fellow at the University of Chicago’s Forum for Free Inquiry and Expression. Her website is www.wangyaqiu.com [http://www.wangyaqiu.com/]. She was born in a village in southeast China. Her family was a peasant family. That’s what it said right on the registration card: “peasant.” Yaqiu grew up in a relatively liberal, relatively lenient period. The word “relatively” is very important. The atmosphere seemed stifling at the time. But under Xi Jinping, Communist rule would become much worse. Yaqiu’s education was doctrinaire—ideological—and she always saw through it. She knew that Communist China was a kingdom of lies. One day, she found a book—The Private Life of Chairman Mao [https://www.amazon.com/Private-Life-Chairman-Mao/dp/0679764437/ref=sr_1_1?crid=28YRROT37YYZP&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.P-Dwtr_dehrjTFAZCuLCFwsK8DTIsy0C2XUKWYsUT1u5S0vc8Ad56PDuVu6SBOQPq1G9VB3Vs0wzDLZ3Hr8iUZ9OiU1wal1QS4vtfjJV7YeYjrJTK4zDECj9q3uvEgI1EA5EPdu9BOxKu1HptiNoZggNMGDChcbwR3TUJBtDWcgmQUNd_JFVWuBw0dV1CRNXgLYy5OmuIWdT0dFjIwts9rhAkVRQBJpfd2OoJVu2AP4.fYkGuaqt8ERWq2Orl07WCS1VR9UWot0IenfrK0kNWec&dib_tag=se&keywords=The+Private+Life+of+Chairman+Mao%3A+The+Memoirs+of+Mao%27s+Personal+Physician&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1774746526&sprefix=%2Caps%2C208&sr=8-1]. This is the memoir of Mao’s personal physician, Li Zhisui. It is an eye-popping book. Yaqiu Wang read it in amazement, as many of us did. It contradicts the mythology surrounding the “Great Helmsman.” (I relied on this memoir in the Mao chapter of my book on the sons and daughters of dictators: Children of Monsters [https://www.amazon.com/Children-Monsters-Inquiry-Daughters-Dictators/dp/1594038155].) Wanting to leave her homeland, Yaqiu came to America, studying first at the University of South Carolina. What did she think of America, when she got here? I will paraphrase her: I felt what many Chinese feel, when they see America: People have freedom on their face. If you’ve grown up in China, you see the difference immediately. Americans carry freedom with them when they walk on the street, when they talk to you. They have no fear. In China, there are many things you can’t talk about. You can’t express your feelings. You are disciplined. From a very young age, you know that you are supposed to say certain things and not say certain things. You become a person with fear written on your face. When you come to America, you see people without fear. There is freedom on their face. Does she worry about her security? Even on foreign soil? Of course she does. The Chinese government doesn’t care where you live. Mainly, though, she is worried about her family back home. She cut off all communication with them, in the hope of sparing them repercussions from her human-rights work. “That must be incredibly painful,” I say. Yes, it is. I have a question for Yaqiu Wang: “Did you choose this work or did it choose you?” Again, I will paraphrase her answer: I really feel it’s a calling. … I was born the third child of my family. At the time, China had a one-child policy. The first child, my brother, had a disability, so my sister, the second child, was legal. I was the illegal child. My mother had to hide all during her pregnancy. My birth itself is a human-rights story. When I was growing up, I always heard the propaganda that extra children—that’s what they called them: “extra children”—were a burden to society. I didn’t dare go to school with my sister, because people would then know I had a sibling, which would bring shame. I carried that shame until I came to America, where I realized that having siblings is normal. Before we sign off, I ask Yaqiu Wang whether there is anything else she would like to say—whether there is something she would like people to know. She cites two things. First, I really want Americans to know that what they have is very good, and they should cherish it. They should fight for the freedom they still have. Americans are accustomed to freedom and democracy—they have had it for 250 years. Americans have always been lucky, but maybe your luck is running out. So, please defend the freedom you still have. Second, I want Americans and the rest of the world to know that Chinese people want freedom and democracy. It’s just that the repression is so severe, they do not express it. Their fear is internalized. But if you spend enough time with them, privately, they will let you know: they do want freedom and democracy. Once we were off the air, Yaqiu and I kept talking for a bit. She said, “Have you heard about people who feel they were born in the wrong country? That they were really born with an American mind and heart?” Yes, I have. “Well, that’s true of me,” she said. She also thinks it is “crazy” for Americans to oppose immigration, given our history and our character. Yaqiu Wang is a real individual, an independent thinker and spirit. It was a privilege to listen to her. Q&A is the podcast of this site, Onward and Upward. The site is supported by readers and listeners. To receive new articles and episodes—and to support the work of the writer and podcaster—become a free or paid subscriber. Many thanks to you. Get full access to Onward and Upward at www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe [https://www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

A Man of Letters

Don Williams—Donald Mace Williams—is a writer. A poet, a novelist, a journalist, a translator, and so on. A real man of letters. He has been steeped in poetry all of his life. When he and his family were living in tents during the Depression, he had Mark Van Doren’s Anthology of World Poetry [https://www.amazon.com/Anthology-World-Poetry-Mark-Doren/dp/B000IVGLB8/ref=sr_1_3?crid=QBR3RA1ZYTHQ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.HRYuoQrVs8fNHj0Xt3mHMoOSu-I3qAjO8uvH6y_LHXFkTHI0lgGMP6a4_iZUcJHtQqUh2K-eIwwthsWflVjEUGpFpaBNyDgoZansk2GuWhZNTt_bxuTKtjlQ2OuKtybS_qCukCKaIRKe_kH49tJ4qOiIEXkXN8hcfinrSr0TYTnQwX6FJknvkOIA3bnvIGaam8JfOsZI8Cd2GUuxPcUQ_bQY0duPC8FwWxuf8WFf-jo.UOgVNIl_QbIH4l1uRjlGmNWCNTVJAYbEzMPXfY9CuM0&dib_tag=se&keywords=mark+van+doren+an+anthology+of+world+poetry&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1773168308&sprefix=mark+van+doren+an+anthology+of+world+poetry%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-3] at his side. That amounts to an education, in one volume. But Williams went on to have a lot more education, in the classroom and beyond. He was born in Texas on “Black Thursday”—October 24, 1929, when the stock market crashed. He has titled one of his novels “Black Tuesday’s Child [https://www.amazon.com/Black-Tuesdays-Child-Donald-Williams/dp/0972944559/ref=sr_1_9?crid=46NVBMM2H7UV&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.e9Rcrr5hFO_B6UBCqn5pCBf3A-5M04rfbodzj9s36dKsG1oaE8st5r_kKnHUe76upf6gJfA0OKzulDyVzA64FjdKrQnTyo6C-dO5yku1Kb_5o4N0yrhg828BLs3bKbApT3zOWFiM_ZG6PFO0oxSWMoCMmNVA_zjGXFDUUk5tCQQ.YROam7tF2pJfBuxXwSl_UfIiVk0CUC0CcVdY6tIvxJ0&dib_tag=se&keywords=donald+mace+williams&qid=1773493410&sprefix=donald+mace+william%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-9].” (Note the switch of days. “Black Tuesday,” in 1929, was five days after the 24th.) Another novel is The Sparrow and the Hall [https://www.amazon.com/Sparrow-Hall-Martha-W-Nichols/dp/0692143157/ref=sr_1_6?crid=46NVBMM2H7UV&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.e9Rcrr5hFO_B6UBCqn5pCBf3A-5M04rfbodzj9s36dKsG1oaE8st5r_kKnHUe76upf6gJfA0OKzulDyVzA64FjdKrQnTyo6C-dO5yku1Kb_5o4N0yrhg828BLs3bKbApT3zOWFiM_ZG6PFO0oxSWMoCMmNVA_zjGXFDUUk5tCQQ.YROam7tF2pJfBuxXwSl_UfIiVk0CUC0CcVdY6tIvxJ0&dib_tag=se&keywords=donald+mace+williams&qid=1773493410&sprefix=donald+mace+william%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-6], set in medieval England. Speaking of old England—very, very old England—Williams is a translator of Beowulf: here [https://www.amazon.com/Beowulf-Schoolroom-Donald-Mace-Williams/dp/B0CP8X759B/ref=sr_1_2?crid=46NVBMM2H7UV&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.e9Rcrr5hFO_B6UBCqn5pCBf3A-5M04rfbodzj9s36dKsG1oaE8st5r_kKnHUe76upf6gJfA0OKzulDyVzA64FjdKrQnTyo6C-dO5yku1Kb_5o4N0yrhg828BLs3bKbApT3zOWFiM_ZG6PFO0oxSWMoCMmNVA_zjGXFDUUk5tCQQ.YROam7tF2pJfBuxXwSl_UfIiVk0CUC0CcVdY6tIvxJ0&dib_tag=se&keywords=donald+mace+williams&qid=1773493410&sprefix=donald+mace+william%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-2]. Further dipping into Williams, here [https://www.amazon.com/Nectar-Dancer-Donald-Mace-Williams/dp/B0C3TDSMVW/ref=sr_1_5?crid=46NVBMM2H7UV&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.e9Rcrr5hFO_B6UBCqn5pCBf3A-5M04rfbodzj9s36dKsG1oaE8st5r_kKnHUe76upf6gJfA0OKzulDyVzA64FjdKrQnTyo6C-dO5yku1Kb_5o4N0yrhg828BLs3bKbApT3zOWFiM_ZG6PFO0oxSWMoCMmNVA_zjGXFDUUk5tCQQ.YROam7tF2pJfBuxXwSl_UfIiVk0CUC0CcVdY6tIvxJ0&dib_tag=se&keywords=donald+mace+williams&qid=1773493410&sprefix=donald+mace+william%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-5] is a volume of poetry (his own). Here [https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Rainer-Maria-Rilke-Anniversary/dp/196576634X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=46NVBMM2H7UV&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.e9Rcrr5hFO_B6UBCqn5pCBf3A-5M04rfbodzj9s36dKsG1oaE8st5r_kKnHUe76upf6gJfA0OKzulDyVzA64FjdKrQnTyo6C-dO5yku1Kb_5o4N0yrhg828BLs3bKbApT3zOWFiM_ZG6PFO0oxSWMoCMmNVA_zjGXFDUUk5tCQQ.YROam7tF2pJfBuxXwSl_UfIiVk0CUC0CcVdY6tIvxJ0&dib_tag=se&keywords=donald+mace+williams&qid=1773493410&sprefix=donald+mace+william%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-1] are poems of Rilke, which he has translated. Don has had a productive life. One of his first loves was music, a love that of course endures. He studied singing, and his brother became a pianist. And what goes with songs but poetry? Poetry in a great range of languages. Robert Frost is a poet who has meant a lot to Williams. So have a good many others, some of whom we discuss. In our Q&A, we talk about all sorts of things. It’s a treat to hear Don recite poetry—his own and others’. He has a wonderful voice, a voice redolent of Texas (and perhaps other parts of the country too, as Don has lived all over). There are a couple of questions I forgot to ask him. So, I asked him by e-mail, afterward. And he gave me written answers. Would you like to hear him? I asked him something like this: “You have taught writing. I’m not sure how I would do it. I mean, I could work with someone’s copy. I could edit it and show him what I was doing. I did that for years. But teaching writing? Really teaching it, the way you would teach math or history? I’m not sure how I’d go about it.” Don answered, I tried to teach writing for a good many years, both on newspapers and in college journalism classes. When I was the writing coach for The Wichita Eagle, I sat with reporters and went over their stories line by line, suggesting this or that change and commending phrases I liked. Every day, also, I wrote comments on that day’s stories and passed them out. I’m not sure I improved anybody’s writing either way. I think I usually, over the years, found exactly the same things to quibble over or praise in a reporter’s work that I had found at the start. What I hope may have helped writers write better is a couple of maxims that helped me from my first days as a reporter. One was home-grown. My dad, who had been a reporter and editor among many other things, told me, “Don’t say, ‘He attempted to accomplish the difficult matters,’ say, ‘He tried to do the hard things.’” And though I never worked for The Dallas Morning News, I knew what the signs in the newsroom said: “Write Like You Talk.” Not quite good grammar, but just the right tone. If I did teach anyone to be a better writer, I imagine it was by promoting those directives and others like them. Yes. For many years, people have asked me (something like), “How should I write?” And I tend to say, “Write like you talk (and gussy it up a little bit, if that seems wise). Don’t try to have a ‘writing voice’ separate from your actual voice—your way of speaking. Writing is speech written down, basically. You write it down so that others, who aren’t with you, can hear it.” On meeting me, readers have often said, “You talk like you write, and you write like you talk!” I really can’t do otherwise. I mean, I can, but it sounds stiff. Bill Buckley wrote exactly like he talked. (He would want me to say “as he talked.”) So did Norman Podhoretz. So did David Pryce-Jones. I could go on … Another thing I wanted to ask Don Williams was, “Who are your favorite singers?” The answer: When I started voice lessons, at 16, my ideal was the young John McCormack, who, even on the acoustic 78 r.p.m. discs that I bought for a quarter each at the Salvation Army store in Denver, sang beautiful, perfectly free tones such as no tenor I’ve heard since then has produced. Later, I added to my list of ideal singers the Danish tenor Aksel Schiøtz, a wonderfully warm-voiced and tasteful artist. But the singer who made the greatest impression on me in live recital was Leontyne Price. I dislike routine standing ovations, because if you do them for every performer, how do you show your enthusiasm for great ones? But when Price ended her program with “Summertime” from Porgy and Bess, I jumped up, yelling—and then fell back into my seat because my knees were so weak. A glorious sound. Two notes, please: John McCormack was the favorite singer of the late, great Martin Bernheimer, the music critic and scholar. (For my appreciation of Martin, written in 2019 when he passed away, go here [https://www.nationalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/nordlinger_20250113_B.html].) Note 2: Don says, “… the singer who made the greatest impression on me in live recital was Leontyne Price.” Same. Back to our podcast: There are a couple of technical glitches in it—well, not glitches, but curiosities, let’s say. Don is using a friend’s Zoom set-up, so it has her name on it, not his. I myself am zooming in and out, somehow. (I guess zooming goes with Zoom.) My app has switched itself to some setting, in mysterious fashion. I’ll see whether I can un-switch it. But forget tech. The main thing is to meet—to get to know—Donald Mace Williams, which is a pleasure to do. Q&A is the podcast of this site, Onward and Upward. The site is supported by readers and listeners. To receive new articles and episodes—and to support the work of the writer and podcaster—become a free or paid subscriber. Many thanks to you. Get full access to Onward and Upward at www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe [https://www.jaynordlinger.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]