Reconstructing Inclusion Podcast

Reconstructing Inclusion S3E9: The AI-Inclusion Gap Rarely Talked About

Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! Who's shaping the logic of AI systems — and who gets quietly failed when they work exactly as designed, just not for them? That's the inclusion gap Amri Johnson and Peter Swimm dig into in this conversation. Peter Swimm is the founder and CEO of Toilville and has spent over 25 years in conversational AI, building systems for companies like Walmart, Chipotle, and Lowe's before leading generative AI work at Microsoft Copilot Studio. He's one of the sharpest voices in the industry on where AI gets inclusion right — and where it doesn't. In this episode, Amri and Peter explore why diverse voices in tech need more than a seat at the table — they need actual influence over how systems get built. They get into the "Devon Avenue" framework for thinking about inclusive design, the accountability gap that shows up when AI fails real people, and why AI companies may need us more than we need them. What you'll hear: Why AI hallucinations are less a technical problem and more a people gap The difference between diversity in hiring and diversity in decision-making What "who's responsible when the decision is wrong?" looks like in practice Why building for failure from day one is an inclusion issue, not just an engineering one The data leverage argument: what it means that AI companies need fresh human data to stay relevant About the Guest Peter Swimm [https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterswimm/] is the founder and CEO of Toilville, a consultancy helping organizations use AI without losing the institutional knowledge and human expertise that make them effective. He co-founded Talkabot, the industry's first dedicated conversational AI conference, and got his start teaching Chicago communities how to use the internet at the public library in 1996. Peter is a vocal advocate for ethical, human-centered AI — arguing that truly inclusive AI requires diverse voices shaping systems from the start, not just auditing for bias after the fact. Find him at toilville.com [http://toilville.com]. #Inclusion #AI #Algorithm #Leadership #OrganizationalDesign #Diversity #Technology #FutureofWork #ConversationalAI If this episode got you thinking, share it with someone working in tech, HR, or DEI who hasn't yet grappled with what AI means for their work. Subscribe so you never miss an episode of Reconstructing Inclusion. Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ [https://inclusionwins.com/] https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/] ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

Reconstructing Inclusion S3E8: Your People Belong. But Do They Know They Matter?

Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! Most inclusion conversations focus on belonging. This episode makes the case that we've been stopping short. Belonging asks: Am I welcome here? Mattering asks: Am I consequential here? You can answer yes to the first and no to the second — and when that happens, something dims inside people that is hard to recover without intentional effort. Amri unpacks this distinction through a real story, research from organizational psychologists, and a practice you can use today. In this episode: 00:01:00 Introduction and why this conversation matters now 00:04:00 Belonging vs. mattering: the core distinction 00:06:00 Zach Mercurio's indispensability test 00:08:00 The grasp reflex: mattering as a survival instinct 00:10:00 The running faucet metaphor 00:15:00 Emotional intelligence as the infrastructure for mattering 00:17:00 The self-efficacy gap: awareness vs. agency 00:19:00 Cultural intelligence and making mattering portable 00:21:00 The EQ-CQ-mattering chain 00:23:00 The "If It Weren't for You" practice 🔥 Standout Quotes: “Most leaders I work with genuinely care about their people. But anti-mattering is rarely the result of one dramatic moment. It builds slowly, and by the time it shows up as silence or people going adrift or disengagement, the faucet has been running for a long time.” [00:11:48] “I’ve worked with highly self-aware people who couldn’t articulate their strengths clearly and consistently held back in high-stakes rooms. They just went silent, not because they lacked insight, but because they had stopped trusting that their contribution would change anything. The awareness was intact. The agency was not.” [00:17:46] #Inclusion #Leadership #Belonging #Diversity #Mattering #CulturalIntelligence #EmotionalIntelligence #CQ #EQ Resources Mentioned: Zach Mercurio’s work on mattering [https://www.zachmercurio.com/the-power-of-mattering/], including the “noticed, affirmed, and needed” framework Isaac Prilleltensky on mattering [https://youtu.be/iluUHZnjMsw?si=3Yw_hISA1ulAb3tt] as feeling valued and adding value Gordon Flett’s research on anti-mattering [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07342829211050544] Daniel Goleman’s emotional intelligence (EQ) framework [https://danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com/ei-overview-the-four-domains-and-twelve-competencies/] Cultural intelligence (CQ) framework by Soon Ang, Linn Van Dyne, and David Livermore [https://culturalq.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Van-Dyne_Ang_Livermore-2010.pdf] Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ [https://inclusionwins.com/] https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/] ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

Reconstructing Inclusion S3E7: Designing Inclusion from the Inside Out with Dr. Jennifer Sarrett

Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! What if DEI was built the same way curb cuts were — designed for the most excluded and better for everyone as a result? In this episode, Amri Johnson sits down with Dr. Jennifer Sarrett, founder of Disruptive Inclusion, to explore why the inclusion field keeps falling short — and what a proactive, evidence-based alternative looks like. Dr. Jennifer Sarrett brings a rare combination of backgrounds: autism advocacy, bioethics, medical anthropology, and public health. Her methodology, Organizational Culture Design, draws from Universal Design principles to build workplaces where access and belonging are built in from the start — not bolted on after a crisis. 🔥 Standout Quotes: “How can we predict where there might be barriers to somebody or a type of person? And go ahead and design to increase accessibility that will funnel down or trickle down to increase accessibility for everybody. Without making it more difficult for anybody.” [00:08:00] “The efforts often aren’t embedded. So they’re training programs, one-off things that aren’t really tracked internally or actually turned into action. The field of DEI isn’t very good at explaining to those in power how it works for them as well.” [00:28:00] In This Episode: [00:02:00] Introducing Dr. Jennifer Sarrett and her background [00:08:00] Universal Design — what it is and why DEI needs it [00:13:00] Reactive vs. proactive inclusion — where the field has gone wrong [00:20:00] Social determinants vs. identity-category thinking [00:28:00] What DEI got wrong about communicating to those in power [00:35:00] Why research has to come before solutions About the Guest Dr. Jen Sarrett is the founder of Disruptive Inclusion, an organizational culture strategy firm. With a PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies, her work bridges systems thinking, social science, and public health to solve complex people challenges. She also publishes Science of High Performance, a weekly newsletter on culture design in health and science. Website: disruptiveinclusion.com [https://disruptiveinclusion.com] Personal site: jennifersarrett.com [https://jennifersarrett.com] LinkedIn: Jennifer Sarrett [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifersarrett/] #Inclusion #DEI #Leadership #OrganizationalDesign #Diversity #Neurodivergence Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ [https://inclusionwins.com/] https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/] ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

Reconstructing Inclusion S3E6: Moving Beyond Legal Defenses to Build Capable Organizations

Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! In this solo episode, I break down why DEI didn't collapse because of courtroom battles or political backlash. It collapsed because the field stopped evolving. While we were busy seeking legal cover and worrying about what would hold up in court, something more consequential was happening inside organizations: sense-making was deteriorating, trust was thinning, and people increasingly felt replaceable. The question now isn't whether DEI was lawful. The question is whether we're willing to evolve the field or just repackage the last 40 years of work and call it progress. 🔥 Standout Quotes: "It's not the Trump administration that took down DEI in its entirety. The Trump administration came when it was politically expedient and then basically threw gasoline on a fire that was already burning." [00:11:00] "Inclusion at its core is about sense-making. About making sense of the world, of each other, of our teams, of our organization. Understanding that the organization is all working in concert to create the conditions for everyone to do their best work and for the organization to fulfill on its mission." [00:17:00] Resources Mentioned: Reconstructing Inclusion [https://benbellabooks.com/shop/reconstructing-inclusion/?srsltid=AfmBOoofZMdSDagHV35h2sJqcYVQCdoa7E2VnvI7adlKDb3Lw8uhYFty] by Amri Johnson How Equality Wins [https://a.co/d/0j31jM56] by Kenji Yoshino and David Glasgow Lily Zheng’s “FAIR Framework” [https://www.lilyzheng.co/fair-framework] The Emergent Inclusion Framework [https://www.inclusionwins.com/the-emergent-inclusion-pathway] In This Episode: [00:02:00] The damage that's already been done [00:05:00] When sense-making declines [00:08:00] Why we asked compliance to do the work of culture and capability [00:11:00] Trump administration threw gasoline on a fire that was already burning [00:13:00] How disagreement became treated as risk rather than data [00:16:00] Introducing Emergent Inclusion [00:17:00] The four questions [00:22:00] When inclusion works... [00:23:00] The choice: defensible or functional? #Inclusion #DEI #Leadership #OrganizationalDevelopment #Diversity #Trump Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ [https://inclusionwins.com/] https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/] ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]

Reconstructing Inclusion S3E5: Designing for the Margins: Joy Elizabeth Buckner on Neurodivergence, Education, and Mattering

Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! Designing for the Margins: Why Neurodivergent Thinkers Need More Than Awareness Joy Elizabeth Buckner is an educational consultant who's spent 13 years abroad working across 25+ countries to support neurodivergent learners. With dyslexia, Irlen Syndrome, and ADHD, she brings lived experience to her mission of building belonging for neurodivergent thinkers. We explore why educational systems are designed for the "middle," what happens when we build for the margins, and Joy's framework for moving beyond awareness to action: empowered, equipped, voiced, connected. Key Topics: Teaching to the middle, blind spots around neurodivergence, "penguining" and ADHD brilliance, why neurodivergent people need proof they matter, the cost of masking Timestamps: [00:12:00] From categories to lived experience [00:15:30] Why we're still teaching the same way [00:20:30] Joy's four-pillar framework [00:28:30] Systems that fail neurodivergent children [00:34:30] Neurodivergent people need extra proof [00:37:00] "Penguining" and neurodivergent brilliance Resources: "Shantaram" by Gregory David Roberts, The Joy of Neurodiversity Podcast [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-joy-of-neurodiversity/id1801922006], "Covering" by Kenji Yoshino 20-30% of people are neurodivergent. When we design for the margins, everyone benefits. 🔥 Standout Quotes: "If you were in my brain and you knew how hard I was trying in class, in school, in life—I was trying so hard just to try to feel normal. That's the thing that I hear again and again. We were lazy, we were defiant, we didn't try hard enough." [00:33:45] "Other people can tell you that you matter. Other people can tell you that you belong. Other people can tell you that you're valued. We need proof. Neurodivergent people need extra proof." [00:34:30] About Our Guest: Joy Buckner [https://www.bucknereducation.com/about] is an educational consultant, speaker, and host of "The Joy of Neurodiversity" podcast. She works with parents, teachers, and ministries of education to build belonging and show dignity to the brilliance of neurodivergent thinkers. Based in Dubai, she's worked across 25+ countries reshaping how we understand and support diverse minds. Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ [https://inclusionwins.com/] https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/] ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe [https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_2]