The Civic Podcast: Beyond the Echo Chambers

Israel Strikes Iran: The End of International Law? w/ Yuval Shany

Is this the end of international law? This episode of The Civic Podcast tackles the contentious debate surrounding "Operation Rising Lion", Israel's recent strikes on Iran's nuclear and military infrastructure. Is international law keeping pace with modern conflicts, or are we witnessing its unravelling?Host Markus Wagner is joined by Professor Yuval Shany, former Chair of the United Nations Human Rights Committee, to dissect the complex international legal questions involved. While many scholars deem the operation an unlawful preventive action, Professor Shany argues it represents an escalation within an ongoing armed conflict.The conversation explores the tension between the UN Charter's prohibition on the use of force and the right of self-defense, the slippery concept of "imminence" in the face of modern weaponry, and the challenges of proxy warfare. This discussion delves into one of the most significant legal debates on self-defense since the 2003 invasion of Iraq.Whether you’re a legal scholar or just curious about the headlines, this conversation will leave you questioning where the law ends – and politics begin. Follow Us on Socials: ✅https://www.youtube.com/@TheCivicPodcast1✅https://x.com/TheCivicPodcast✅https://www.instagram.com/thecivicpodcast✅https://bsky.app/profile/thecivicpodcast.bsky.social✅https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-civic-podcastSourcesAmichai Cohen and Yuval Shany, A New War or a New Stage in an Ongoing War – Observations on June 13 Israeli Attack against Iran [https://www.justsecurity.org/114641/israel-iran-un-charter-jus-ad-bellum/], Just Security, 15 June 2025Adil Ahmad Haque, Indefensible: Israel’s Unlawful Attack on Iran [https://www.justsecurity.org/115010/israel-unlawful-attack-iran-charter/ ], Just Security, 19 June 2025IAEA, Verification and monitoring in the Islamic Republic of Iran in light of United Nations Security Council resolution 2231 (2015) [https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/25/06/gov2025-24.pdf], 31 May 2025Israel Defense Forces, X.com, 13 June 2025, https://x.com/IDF/status/1933324595471454495Marko Milanovic, Is Israel’s Use of Force Against Iran Justified by Self-Defence? [https://www.ejiltalk.org/is-israels-use-of-force-against-iran-justified-by-self-defence/], EJIL:Talk!, 13 June 2025Marko Milanovic, The Illegal Israeli-American Use of Force Against Iran: A Follow-Up [https://www.ejiltalk.org/the-illegal-israeli-american-use-of-force-against-iran-a-follow-up/], EJIL:Talk!, 23 June 2025Brianna Rosen, Tess Bridgeman and Nima Gerami, The Day After U.S. Strikes on Iran’s Nuclear Program: A Policy and Legal Assessment [https://www.justsecurity.org/115234/policy-legal-iran-nuclear-strikes/], Just Security, 22 June 2025Gideon Sa’ar, FM Sa'ar sends letter to the UN Security Council on 'Operation Rising Lion' to remove the Iranian threat of elimination against Israel [https://www.gov.il/en/pages/fm-sa-ar-s-letter-to-the-un-security-council-on-operation-rising-lion-17-june-2025 ], 17 June 2025 Leonard S. Spector and Avner Cohen, Israel’s Airstrike on Syria’s Reactor: Implications for the Nonproliferation Regime [http://www.jstor.org/stable/23628417 ], Arms Control Today 38 6/2008, 15–21Matthew C. Waxman, The Caroline Affair in the Evolving International Law of Self-Defense [https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/faculty_scholarship/2507 ], Lawfare 2018BiosMarkus Wagner is Professor of Law at the University of Wollongong, Australia and has advised the private sector, governments and international organizations. An award-winning instructor, his academic work and consulting are focused on the intersections of international trade law and governance, and international peace and security, as well as US and Australian constitutional law. Professor Wagner is a sought after commentator on TV, radio and other news outlets. Professor Yuval Shany is the Hersch Lauterpacht Chair in International Law and former Dean of the Law Faculty of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He also currently serves as a Senior Research Fellow at the Israel Democracy Institute, Visiting Professor in the Center for Transnational Legal Studies at King’s College, London and Research Fellow at the Ethics in AI Institute in Oxford. He was a member of the UN Human Rights Committee between 2013-2020 (chairing the Committee between 2018-2019).#politics #law #podcast #interview #israel #iran #netanyahu #middleeast

Australian Elections Redux, Code v Counsel: AI and the Law, the Jumbo in the Room

Join hosts Markus Wagner and David Turner on The Civic Podcast as they discuss the aftermath of the Australian elections (definitely not boring!) and dive into the future of law in an AI-driven world. In the post-election roundup in Australia they cover the collapse of the Liberal–National coalition, Labor’s overwhelming majority, and the surprising demotion of Labor front benchers Mark Dreyfus and Ed Husic. Was this Richard Marles' doing or is Anthony Albanese showing his Machiavellian side? And does it damage the Labor brand? Markus and David offer fresh insight into what these shifts mean for the future of Australian politics—and why anyone abroad should be paying attention.They then dive deep into the uneasy intersection of AI and law. As trust in human lawyers wanes and AI-generated legal advice gains traction, are we witnessing a turning point—or a tech-fueled mirage? Markus and David explore whether generative AI is truly reshaping the path to justice, what it means for the legal profession and legal education, and whether we’re heading toward a two-tiered legal system. The episode closes with a look at what might never become Air Force One, but maybe the new Trump aircraft. A wide-ranging, provocative conversation you won’t want to miss.Links: Daron Acemoglu, Issue 129, 25 June 2024, Goldman Sachs Global Investment Research [https://www.goldmansachs.com/images/migrated/insights/pages/gs-research/gen-ai--too-much-spend,-too-little-benefit-/TOM_AI%202.0_ForRedaction.pdf.]. Emily Berman, A Government of Laws and Not of Machines [https://www.bu.edu/bulawreview/files/2018/10/BERMAN.pdf], (2018) 98(5) Boston University Law Review 1277. Gillespie, N., Lockey, S., Ward, T., Macdade, A., & Hassed, G. (2025). Trust, attitudes and use of artificial intelligence: A global study 2025. The University of Melbourne and KPMG. Lee et al, The Impact of Generative AI on Critical Thinking [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/lee_2025_ai_critical_thinking_survey.pdf], 2025. Arvind Narayanan and Sayash Kapoor, AI as Normal Technology [https://knightcolumbia.org/content/ai-as-normal-technology], Knight First Amendment Institute, 15 April 2025. Opinion Lex, LLM vs LLB: the case for junior lawyers is undermined by AI [https://www.ft.com/content/921dde82-a503-4f44-ae1b-51c657c811ea], FT, 11 May 2025. Eike Schneiders, Joshua Krook and Tina Seabrooke, People trust legal advice generated by ChatGPT more than a lawyer – new study [https://theconversation.com/people-trust-legal-advice-generated-by-chatgpt-more-than-a-lawyer-new-study-252217], The Conversation, 28 April 2025. Eike Schneiders, Tina Seabrooke, Joshua Krook, Richard Hyde, Natalie Leesakul, Jeremie Clos, and Joel E Fischer. 2025. Objection Overruled! Lay People can Distinguish Large Language Models from Lawyers, but still Favour Advice from an LLM [https://doi.org/10.1145/3706598.3713470]. 2025 CHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (CHI '25). Stockdale, M., & Mitchell, R. (2019). Legal advice privilege and artificial legal intelligence: Can robots give privileged legal advice? The International Journal of Evidence & Proof, 23(4), 422. Ari Ezra Waldman, ‘Power, Process, and Automated Decision-Making [https://doi.org/10.1145/3706598.3713470]’ (2019) 88(2) Fordham Law Review 613. Socials: ✅https://www.youtube.com/@TheCivicPodcast1✅https://x.com/TheCivicPodcast✅https://www.instagram.com/thecivicpodcast✅https://bsky.app/profile/thecivicpodcast.bsky.social✅https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-civic-podcast Hosts: ⁠⁠Markus Wagner⁠⁠⁠ [https://markusawagner.com/about/] is Professor of Law at the⁠ ⁠⁠University of Wollongong⁠ [https://scholars.uow.edu.au/markus-wagner]⁠⁠, Australia and has advised the private sector, governments and international organizations. An award-winning instructor, his academic work and consulting are focused on the intersections of international trade law and governance, and international peace and security, as well as US and Australian constitutional law. Professor Wagner is a sought after⁠ commentator on⁠ ⁠TV, radio and other news outlets⁠⁠⁠ [https://markusawagner.com/media].  David Turner is a lawyer and software developer from Sydney, Australia. As the principal lawyer of⁠ ⁠⁠Empirical Legal⁠⁠⁠ [https://www.empirical.law], David advises Australian startups, scale-ups and small businesses on corporate advisory and technology challenges. As a co-founder of⁠ ⁠⁠Lext⁠ [https://www.lext.com.au]⁠⁠, David works to make the law easier to access and easier to practise through software. Lext develops its own software-as-a-service products, and also works with government agencies, law firms and not-for-profit organisations to develop technological solutions to law and justice problems.

Trade-Off(s): Making Sense of the Trump Tariffs w/ Stephen Vaughn

Ever wondered how the Trump tariffs could possibly make sense? In this episode of The Civic Podcast, host Markus Wagner sits down with Stephen Vaughn, former General Counsel for the U.S. Trade Representative, for a spirited discussion on the Trump administration’s trade policy. They explore and discuss the rationale behind Trump’s tariff agenda, its impact on businesses, and the future of global trade governance.  Vaughn, a partner at King & Spalding, offers an insider's perspective on Trump’s "America First" approach, challenges what is arguably the consensus among policy analysts and advocates for a trade philosophy that prioritizes American workers and national independence.  Tune in to a timely conversation about power, politics, and the real-world trade-offs in a rapidly changing world in which "tariff threats work". Links:  Giovanna Coi, US popularity collapses worldwide in wake of Trump’s return [https://www.politico.eu/article/usa-popularity-collapse-worldwide-trump-return/], Politico, 12 May 2025 Rachel F. Fefer, Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act [https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/IF10667⁠], Congressional Research Service, 1 April 2022 Gallup, Most Americans Skeptical About Benefits of Tariffs [https://news.gallup.com/poll/660002/americans-skeptical-benefits-tariffs.aspx], 28 April 2025 Tobias Gehrke, Cards on the table: Why the EU should negotiate Trump’s tariffs in three phases [https://ecfr.eu/article/cards-on-the-table-why-the-eu-should-negotiate-trumps-tariffs-in-three-phases/], European Council of Foreign Relations, 28 April 2025 Nicolas Lamp, What President Trump’s “Reciprocal” Tariffs Mean for International (Trade) Law [https://www.ejiltalk.org/what-president-trumps-reciprocal-tariffs-mean-for-international-trade-law], EJIL:Talk!, 30 April 2025 Donald MacKay, More US section 232 investigations underway – WTF is going on? [https://www.xagta.com/more-us-section-232-investigations-underway-wtf-is-going-on⁠], 1 May 2025 Nira Data, Democracy Perception Index (DPI) 2025 [https://www.niradata.com/dpi] Mona Paulsen, The Past, Present, and Potential of Economic Security [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4604958⁠ ], forthcoming in Yale Journal of International Law, vol. 50, pp. ___ (2025) Li Yuan, There Are Two Chinas, and America Must Understand Both [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/13/business/china-economy-us-trade-war.html⁠], New York Times, 13 May 2025 Socials:  ✅https://www.youtube.com/@TheCivicPodcast1 ✅https://x.com/TheCivicPodcast ✅https://www.instagram.com/thecivicpodcast ✅https://bsky.app/profile/thecivicpodcast.bsky.social ✅https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-civic-podcast Stephen Vaughn [https://www.kslaw.com/people/stephen-vaughn] is a partner at the International Trade Team of King & Spalding. Prior to his current position, Stephen completed more than two years as the General Counsel's office of the Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR). In that position, he managed a team of government attorneys representing U.S. interests in both trade negotiations and trade litigation. While at USTR, Stephen was directly involved in numerous significant issues, including the USMCA, actions undertaken by the U.S. against China pursuant to Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974, and efforts to revise the Korea/U.S. Free Trade Agreement (KORUS). On the litigation side, he supervised U.S. litigation efforts before the World Trade Organization. Markus Wagner⁠⁠ [https://markusawagner.com/about/]is Professor of Law at the⁠ ⁠University of Wollongong⁠ [https://scholars.uow.edu.au/markus-wagner], Australia and has advised the private sector, governments and international organizations. An award-winning instructor, his academic work and consulting are focused on the intersections of international trade law and governance, and international peace and security, as well as US and Australian constitutional law. Professor Wagner is a sought after commentator [https://markusawagner.com/media] on⁠ ⁠TV, radio and other news outlets⁠⁠.

Electile Dysfunction? The 2025 Australian Elections

The outcome of Australia’s 2025 federal election shocked just about everyone. Co-hosts Markus Wagner and David Turner unpack the results: the landslide win for Labor resulting in a historic second term for Prime Minister Anthony Albanese; how the Coalition is facing an identity crisis; the Greens’ growing pains; and the Teals’ staying power; and the curious case of the “Trumpets for Patriots”. Markus and David break down the numbers, the narratives, and the big lessons for all sides. Boring politics might be back—but that seems what the electorate wanted. Tune in to The Civic Podcast to find out. Links:  ABC News, Ex-PMs farewell election analyst Antony Green after his final ABC Australia Votes broadcast [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-04/australia-elections-antony-green-prime-ministers/105237300], Australian Electoral Commission, Tally Room [https://tallyroom.aec.gov.au/⁠ ] Annabel Crabb, Peter Dutton's platform infuriated women — and it likely lost him the election [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-05-04/did-peter-dutton-nuke-himself-with-female-voters-/105249444⁠], ABC News, 4 May 2025 Diego Garzia, Frederico Ferreira da Silva, Simon Maye, Affective Polarization in Comparative and Longitudinal Perspective, Public Opinion Quarterly, Volume 87, Issue 1, Spring 2023, 219–231  Olivia Ireland, Clay Lucas and Bridie Smith, Bandt clings to Melbourne seat as members clash on party direction [https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/bandt-clings-to-melbourne-seat-as-members-internally-clash-on-party-direction-20250503-p5lwaj.html⁠], 4 May 2025 Joseph Olbrycht-Palmer, Jumbled messages and an un-electable leader drove Labor’s win, pollster claims [  ⁠https://www.news.com.au/national/federal-election/jumbled-messages-and-an-unelectable-leader-drove-labors-win-pollster-claims/news-story/f4cfa499d421cc8d77ce9b6962badd31⁠], News.com, 4 May 2025 Laura Silver, Most across 19 countries see strong partisan conflicts in their society, especially in South Korea and the U.S. [https://pewrsr.ch/3Gmj4UQ ], Pew Research, 16 November 2022 Chris Wallace, Labor wins with a superior campaign and weak opposition – now it’s time to make the second term really matter [https://theconversation.com/labor-wins-with-a-superior-campaign-and-weak-opposition-now-its-time-to-make-the-second-term-really-matter-255516⁠], The Conversation, 3 May 2025, Tongue in Cheek, Donald Trump Actually Quite Good At Uniting A Nation When It’s Not His Own [https://www.betootaadvocate.com/entertainment/donald-trump-actually-quite-good-at-uniting-a-nation-when-its-not-his-own/], Betoota Advocate  Recommendations:  ⁠ Ross Douthat, Interesting Times [https://www.nytimes.com/column/interesting-times⁠ ] Jerome Doraisamy, Baking bad: Here, intellectual property lawyers weigh in on the extraordinary dispute between two of Australia’s most famous chefs [https://www.lawyersweekly.com.au/biglaw/42022-nagi-vs-brooki-ip-lawyers-have-their-say⁠ ], Lawyers Weekly, 5 May 2025 Our Socials:  ✅https://www.youtube.com/@TheCivicPodcast1 ✅https://x.com/TheCivicPodcast ✅https://www.instagram.com/thecivicpodcast ✅https://bsky.app/profile/thecivicpodcast.bsky.social ✅https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-civic-podcast Hosts: ⁠Markus Wagner⁠⁠ [https://markusawagner.com/about/] is Professor of Law at the⁠ ⁠University of Wollongong [https://scholars.uow.edu.au/markus-wagner]⁠⁠, Australia and has advised the private sector, governments and international organizations. An award-winning instructor, his academic work and consulting are focused on the intersections of international trade law and governance, and international peace and security, as well as US and Australian constitutional law. Professor Wagner is a sought after commentator on⁠ ⁠TV, radio and other news outlets⁠⁠ [https://markusawagner.com/media].  David Turner is a lawyer and software developer from Sydney, Australia. As the principal lawyer of⁠ ⁠Empirical Legal⁠⁠ [https://www.empirical.law], David advises Australian startups, scale-ups and small businesses on corporate advisory and technology challenges. As a co-founder of⁠ ⁠Lext [https://www.lext.com.au]⁠⁠, David works to make the law easier to access and easier to practise through software. Lext develops its own software-as-a-service products, and also works with government agencies, law firms and not-for-profit organisations to develop technological solutions to law and justice problems.

It's the End of the (Trade) World as We Know It w/ Deborah Elms

What’s behind the Trump tariff blitz – and where is it taking the global economy? In this episode of The Civic Podcast, host and law professor Markus Wagner is joined by trade expert Dr. Deborah Elms of the Hinrich Foundation to unpack the chaos and consequences of Trump’s tariff trade strategy. What’s really driving this sudden escalation? From a fixation on trade deficits, a disregard for political, constitutional and legal process, and operating outside of traditional economic parameters we explore why tariffs have become Trump's favorite tool and what the ensuing uncertainty means for global supply chains, American consumers, and U.S. allies and rivals alike.Markus Wagner and Deborah Elms break down how this tariff storm is not just reshaping trade – it’s destabilizing it. Whether you're a policy wonk or just trying to make sense of the headlines, this episode is your essential guide to understanding the past, present, and uncertain future of global trade. Links: Oren Cass, Stop Freaking Out. Trump’s Tariffs Can Still Work [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/08/opinion/trump-tariffs-success-failure.html], New York Times, 8 April 2025 Douglas Irwin, Even Americans Don’t Want Trump’s Barmy Tariffs [https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2025/04/03/even-americans-dont-want-trumps-barmy-tariffs-writes-douglas-irwin], The Economist, 3 April 2025 Mari Pangestu and Shiro Armstrong, What ASEAN can do to help avoid the US taking the system down with it [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/trump-tariffs-southeast-asia-asean-negotiate-trade-deal-5080606 ], Channel News Asia, 23 April 2025 Adam Posen, Trade Wars Are Easy to Lose [https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/trade-wars-are-easy-lose], Foreign Affairs, 9 April 2025 Ana Swanson and Tony Room, Trump Moves to Put New Tariffs on Computer Chips and Drugs [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/14/business/economy/trump-semiconductor-tariffs-china.html], New York Times, 14 April 2025 Markus Wagner, These 3 Arguments are Part of the Long Game in Trump’s Trade Wars [https://theconversation.com/these-3-arguments-are-part-of-the-long-game-in-trumps-trade-wars-252516], The Conversation, 31 March 2025 James Crabtree, Trump’s Tariffs Will Pay Off, for China [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/22/opinion/us-china-asia-tariffs.html], New York Times, 22 April 2025, Recommendations: Instead of our usual recommendations, Deborah Elms and Markus Wagner put together a list of writers, academics and commentators to follow. This list is by now means exhaustive. Richard Baldwin: IMD [https://www.imd.org/faculty-profile/richard-baldwin/], LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-baldwin-imd], X/Twitter [https://x.com/BaldwinRE] Alan Beattie: Financial Times [https://www.ft.com/alan-beattie], LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/alan-beattie-84418b9/] Shawn Donnan: Bloomberg [https://www.bloomberg.com/authors/ATybCZQdpEk/shawn-donnan], LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-donnan-3b54076/], X/Twitter [https://x.com/sdonnan] Simon Evenett: IMD [https://www.imd.org/faculty-profile/simon-j-evenett/], LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonevenett], X/Twitter [https://x.com/simonevenett] Ana Swanson: New York Times [https://www.nytimes.com/by/ana-swanson], X/Twitter [https://x.com/anaswanson] Follow Us on Socials: ✅https://www.youtube.com/@TheCivicPodcast1✅https://x.com/TheCivicPodcast✅https://www.instagram.com/thecivicpodcast✅https://bsky.app/profile/thecivicpodcast.bsky.social✅https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-civic-podcast⁠Markus Wagner⁠⁠ (https://markusawagner.com/about/) is Professor of Law at the⁠ ⁠University of Wollongong (https://scholars.uow.edu.au/markus-wagner) and has advised the private sector, governments and international organizations. An award-winning instructor, his academic work and consulting are focused on the intersections of international trade law and governance, and international peace and security, as well as US and Australian constitutional law. Professor Wagner is a sought after commentator on⁠ ⁠TV, radio and other news outlets⁠⁠ (https://markusawagner.com/media). Dr Deborah Elms (https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborah-elms) is the Head of Trade Policy at the Hinrich Foundation in Singapore (https://www.hinrichfoundation.com/profiles/experts-contributors/deborah-elms/). She previously founded and led the Asian Trade Centre and served as President of the Asia Business Trade Association. She has held senior roles in trade policy and research, including heading the Temasek Foundation Centre for Trade & Negotiations and serving as senior fellow at Nanyang Technological University. Deborah serves on several international advisory boards related to trade, including UNESCAP’s Trade and Investment Negotiation Adviser.