Continued Conversations with Megan Gill

Continued Conversations with Kelsey Cally

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss themes around body image and evolving bodies. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone, please welcome Kelsey Cally to Continued Conversations! Kelsey and I met in an acting class here in Los Angeles, and she’s since moved back to Chicago, which is fun since I’d spent a few years in the city myself and adore it so much. Kelsey is a stunning actor, director, teacher, and human, and she has a lot to say about body image, especially when it comes to being an actor. The way Kelsey works with her students to become present in their bodies and accept where they are right here, right now is powerful. She speaks about shifting the body narrative to one of joy and talks about the importance of representing other women who have our similar body types through our art, whether on stage or on screen. Kelsey’s story inspired me, and I hope that her thoughts and offerings inspire you too. In our conversation, we discuss… * Her earliest memories of body image were witnessing how her mother (who was a dancer) would speak about her own body and dealing with people commenting on her red hair and freckles * Shifting the mindset that your body is your own and no longer letting other people’s opinions dictate what you do with it * Sharing with others how you feel about your body might just be how we start to accept our bodies and find self-love * Working with actors on self-acceptance and shifting the narrative to joy * Representing other women who have similar body types to you onstage and on screen * Understanding that, as women, our bodies are constantly shifting due to our cycle and our hormones and educating more people (and young people) about this * Arriving to where you are, in your body and psyche, when performing * Living in your imperfections, as an artist and a human * Kelsey takes her responsibility of holding her position as a leader very seriously * Understanding the power of your example when in a position of leadership, whether that’s as a mother or as a teacher or as a director * Learning how to trust yourself in your artistry * Using wardrobe as play Kelsey does not hold her role as a leader lightly. She understands the power she holds when spearheading a project or mentoring a room of students and makes it a priority to set a good example. I’m just in awe at the way Kelsey moves about the world, as a person and an artist, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation! “ I work a lot on the stage. I come from the world of stage. So you aren’t necessarily watching your own work, but you are being perceived, sometimes by a room of 30, sometimes by a room of thousands, depending on what you’re doing. So there has to be a level of acceptance of being perceived as well, which goes back to what you were talking about earlier of it’s not just snap your fingers and, ‘I accept myself, and here you go.’ And maybe it’s for some people, I don’t know, if it is for you, how exciting to have ease in that. But it’s a lot of work behind the scenes, and daily work behind the scenes, and it can look different all the time. Sometimes it’s an internal conversation with self, sometimes it’s journaling, sometimes it is consuming work that inspires you because you see a reflection of yourself. A lot of my work with students is, yeah, getting them to that level of allowance and acceptance in self. And then once we get there, arriving to character is that much more free.” - Kelsey Cally Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 28-minute and 33-second mark: Kelsey Cally: Yeah, I’ll start by saying I take my position – and I even giggle as I say, a leader, because I feel as if I didn’t consciously choose this necessarily. I always say I fell into teaching. That’s what I tell people. I didn’t mean to be a teacher, but it accidentally happened, and I really love it so much. And with that, I take my responsibility of holding that position of leadership – now I’m getting emotional, my god. I take my responsibility of holding that position very seriously. Because I’m not really doing it for me. And what I mean by that is that I don’t crave control. I don’t crave, “I’m the most important person in this room. Everyone listen to me.” In fact, I reject that with my full being, and almost sometimes I have to be like, “Kelsey, you are the one holding the space for everyone, so you do kind of have to be in charge right now.” And I do when I’m in that space, I won’t make you feel like, “What am I doing?” But so your question means a lot because I very consciously make sure – let me see. I have two parts to this. I very consciously choose my words about myself when I’m using myself as an example in class, which is often, mainly because I don’t wanna reflect anything to – I don’t want anyone to feel they have to be perfect. That’s the best way I can say it. And that starts by me, how I treat myself and how I show up too. So if I’m allowing myself not to be perfect in the space, it gives others freedom not to be perfect in the space. And again, I even hate that word “perfect,” necessarily. Maybe more if I’m accepting myself, where I am that day, in the space very openly, it gives everyone else freedom to accept themselves that way in that space very openly. And that is what is most important to me in the room I am in. I love the medium of acting and the craft, and that’s what I’ve done since I was six years old. I’ve been lucky enough to do it this long, and so, that is the thing I teach. I think, though, in any lifetime, I may have been a teacher. I don’t know if it’s always been acting, but I think in some sort of way, I’ve always been a teacher. It just has fallen on me naturally. So again, I take that very seriously, the example I’m setting. And, like I said earlier, a ton of my conversation with people, especially in this medium, again, which is very physical, and we are often looking at ourselves and consuming our own work or being perceived by others, right? I work a lot on the stage. I come from the world of stage. So you aren’t necessarily watching your own work, but you are being perceived, sometimes by a room of 30, sometimes by a room of thousands, depending on what you’re doing. So there has to be a level of acceptance of being perceived as well, which goes back to what you were talking about earlier of it’s not just snap your fingers and I accept myself, and here you go. And maybe it is for some people, I don’t know. If it is for you, how exciting to have ease in that. But it’s a lot of work behind the scenes, and daily work behind the scenes, and it can look different all the time. Sometimes it’s an internal conversation with self. Sometimes it’s journaling. Sometimes it is consuming work that inspires you because you see a reflection of yourself. So a lot of my work with students is, yeah, getting them to that level of allowance and acceptance in self. And then once we get there, arriving to character, is that much more free, or sometimes it could be the opposite way. Sometimes it could be a character that is first inspiring, and then the work is allowing yourself to assume that. Yeah, I hope that answered… Megan Gill: Oh, absolutely. It’s so lovely. That was – yes, so beautiful. And there are a couple things here that are jumping out to me. First, the parallel between you setting the example for the people that you are working with and teaching and leading and directing, Ms. Leader, you’re just reminding me of the way that you, as a young person, you were looking at your mom and looking at her as the example, and not saying that one is good and one is bad at all, by any means, but that’s just really lovely parallel that’s jumping out to me. Wow, so much of it is just by example, and I even find myself in front of my friends and my people, I am now aware of how I speak about myself. Kelsey Cally: Yes. Megan Gill: And even sometimes I’m joking, and I’ll say something – I said something joking about my booty last night, and my girlfriend that’s staying with me – Chloé Godard! Kelsey Cally: Oh, Chloé! Megan Gill: You know her! She’s staying with me right now, and she was like, “Do not talk about my friend that way.” And I was like – yeah, even at this point, my friends are calling me out if I’m even saying something in a very jokingly manner. But I too try to lead by example in the spaces that I’m in, because I do think it affects people, and I do think that negativity breeds more negativity and if we can just – I also hate the word positivity, but it’s if we can just speak with more kindness about our physical vessels, then hopefully the people that are around us are either taken aback by that like, “Hmm, maybe I should try that too,” or they just inadvertently take it in, and you just never know how it could impact people. So I think that is so wonderful. Kelsey Cally: I don’t know why I just thought of this, but I’m reflecting back to a student. So for a minute, I was coaching a lot, and I still do, but there’s one pocket of time where I was coaching a lot of people for school auditions. A big age range. But this person I’m thinking of was, I believe, 16 when we started working together, and they were working towards college auditions. And also, this kind of applies to young college kids as well. Maybe you experienced this in musical theater, the “look,” right, that you have to have – this specific look when auditioning. I remember just never understanding that, really. I don’t know, when I don’t understand things, then sometimes I’m just like, “Meh, I’m not gonna do it,” me personally. But this was early on in my coaching career, and I was working with this young person, and they were reflecting back to me something they had learned from another coach or another teacher about, “When I audition, I have to wear an A-line dress and heels or whatever and their hair in a certain way. I can think back to the era of 2013, and it was a very specific style dress and… Megan Gill: Literally yes. I’m having flashbacks. Kelsey Cally: You know what I mean? I’m pretty sure you’ve talked about this before. Megan Gill: Yep. Kelsey Cally: And I remember just talking about this young person, I remember looking them dead in the eye, and I was like, “You don’t have to do that.” And they were like, “What?” And they were so young, and everything older people said was so impactful to them, which is why it is so important to understand the power your words have when you’re working in that way, or your actions have when you’re coaching, teaching, or working with people, really of any age demographic, but especially a young mind that is still developing. So I remember looking at them and being like, “Listen, you don’t – I understand someone gave you the advice of maybe what a trend is in dress for this, but do you like it? Do you like wearing it? Does it feel good in your body, or do you feel worse and more self-conscious, and it’s not – ?” I remember seeing a physical shift in them that I released them from this box that someone else had prescribed for them of you have to do this. You don’t, especially in the world of art, of self-expression, of creation, you get to decide what looks you have. You get to decide what feels good on your body, what songs you want to sing, what characters you wanna play, you know, what you say yes to, what you say no to. You design this for yourself, and I know there are a lot of things, implanting different opinions, whether it be trends you said or society or whatever it is that might be suggesting something different that can be really easy to listen to and let influence you, but you get to decide. And I know they shifted to putting on an outfit that felt more comfortable, that brought ease, right, that allowed them to showcase themselves as they were. And also they were in a place, in an age of finding themselves, too. So it felt like taking someone else’s opinion and putting something on that was not themselves. So that was a learning lesson for myself too, of just reminding myself that, if we’re going back to leadership, that within that role of leadership, you can say, “Be yourself!” and influence someone else to be themselves. “Your opinion matters the most, not mine. Even though I may be in the position of your teacher right now, or you are auditioning for a panel of directors, schools, or casting, or whatever, your opinion about yourself still matters the most.” And sometimes you have to dig through that opinion of if it really is like, “Is this opinion coming from other influences of something, or do I really feel this?” And then I’ll give you the next step, okay, yeah, this feels good. Let’s keep exploring this. Maybe this will take me to the next thing that I love. And then the next thing. And then the next thing. I think that’s the only way to move as an artist, is from self. Megan Gill: Gosh, that’s beautiful. Truly stunning way to put all of that. Oh! Yeah, because we have to learn to trust ourselves, specifically as artists. And god, there’s just so much nuance in that, in learning how to listen to yourself, how to trust yourself. It took me years. Kelsey Cally: Yeah. Megan Gill: And it’s really beautiful when it does start to happen. And when you are able to be like, “Oh, that’s what I want to wear for this audition,” because girl, yes, I was in peak music theater, jewel-toned dress. Not that I wouldn’t have worn a dress in heels or a skirt and heels, but I remember when I moved to Chicago, I finally gave myself permission to wear different things to auditions, and it just felt so – I was able to connect with my work more, and if we’re not doing that, what the hell are we doing? Kelsey Cally: And it offers to the sense of play too. I talk about this in class quite often as well. Don’t put on your body what you think someone else might like. First, start with what do you like, and then look at the character, look at the script, look at the influence of the text. Is there something in here that inspires you to go to your closet and pick out that sweater or go to your jewelry and pick out that pair of earrings? Going back to this show, I understudied this past fall, I had a whole day where I was looking through my clothes, and I was like, “Oh, my gosh, Sherry would wear this and this and this!” And that was just a personal, fun play for me. I didn’t even wear any of it in the show. We had an amazing costume designer, so that was handled, but it was more just for my own play. And I don’t know, I think of myself like, “Okay, if I were looking at everything, what would someone else, what would someone else? I dunno. I dunno.” And there is room to want to appease other people. That isn’t inherently a bad thing, but I don’t know. Just start with yourself. I think that’s the first place you have to start. “What do I like?” Megan Gill: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because then it also helps cultivate your own personal opinions, which is something that I didn’t realize until I was in my late twenties, probably. “I don’t really have – I have opinions, but I really want to refine my opinions and get to know them and understand them and lean into them across the board as a person.” And that just opened so many doors for me, as a human and as an artist, and to understand that it’s good to have opinions, and it’s good to bring that into your work and into your life. And that’s just another thing that makes us all different. And the clothes that you’re gonna pick out for the role of young mom are gonna be different than the ones I pick out for the role of young mom. And also, how fun is that to just get to play into that? Yeah. Yeah. Kelsey Cally: Yes, absolutely! Megan Gill: It’s more enjoyable. There’s more joy than thinking… Kelsey Cally: This craft is hard enough, so why would you make it any harder on yourself? Megan Gill: Yes. It’s so true! Kelsey, is there anything else that you want to chat about or bring to the conversation? Kelsey Cally: Let me think. Let me think. Megan Gill: Loaded question, I know. Kelsey Cally: Yeah, no, I just, I go back to – I talk to every – when I’m talking about this craft with students or friends or whatnot, I always talk about how your body is your tool. This is what we have: this body, whatever voice you have, is what you get to use. And each of us has vastly different access to our tools, and the work is understanding that access, too, of what it can do, how I can use it, and what that work is connecting, moving. If I had advice for someone who’s like, I dunno, either is already an actor, is wanting to be an actor: know your body, hug your body, move your body, love your body, understand your body. Your voice is included in that as well. But do things that bring joy for the body. I was talking about dance earlier. There could have been a world where I made that my profession, and I thought – and I probably, because I saw what my mom dealt with in her career, maybe that influenced me not to make it my profession, because it is really difficult. But I remember there was a time where I was like, “I’m doing this for fun because it feels good, because every time I dance, I’m happy. I feel energetic, I feel buzzy in my body. My brain is probably doing, you know, some amazing chemical things that are making me feel elated. So therefore, I’m going to keep doing it. There could be a world where I look at myself, and I say, “That isn’t perfect,” or “I’m not moving that,” or “My body should shift in that way.” And in that way, I lose the joy of what the thing is in the first place. o move your body, relate to your body in ways that bring you joy, truly. Yeah. And I think, therefore, you deepen your understanding of your tool and can use it more efficiently in your craft and in your play and in your expression. Megan Gill: Oh, it’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful because it’s so true, because we’re each so different that my tools are gonna be – maybe we have some crossover, but they’re gonna be overall different from your tools, from her tools, from her tools. And it’s if that isn’t the beautiful thing about the world and us being each individual people, then what are we doing here? We’re just clones. How boring. “I love smiling at people. That’s the best way I can say it. I love looking people in the eye and giving them a smile. And I’ll add to this: I love my arms that embrace and hold people tight like this, and I can give them a big squeeze. And I think those three things in tandem are my favorite thing about my body.” - Kelsey Cally Kelsey Cally is a Chicago-based actor, teacher, and director. Kelsey is founder and owner of Fifth Wall Artistry, where she works with actors from all over the world on deepening their craft. She holds an MFA in Acting from UC Irvine and a BA in Theatre Performance with a minor in Dance from Western Michigan University. Kelsey records a weekly Kids Radio Hour as a volunteer for Vocal Point Georgia Radio, where she shares her love of storytelling with young listeners. She was recently in Factory Theatres’ production of The Sporting Life and Remy Bumppo Theatre Company’s production of Hedda Gabler. She is committed to thoughtful, dynamic work onstage and in the classroom. Follow Kelsey on Instagram [http://www.instagram.com/kelsmcally] Work with Kelsey and Fifth Wall Artistry! [http://www.instagram.com/fifthwallartistry] Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 If you want to be a part of the conversation… either reach out to me via email at themegangill@gmail.com to schedule a conversation or fill out this form [https://airtable.com/appfBhngQH3gNY5LF/pagGShESknIOiuYjY/form] to share your body image story anonymously. A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * That being said, I welcome your support of my guests in the comments. Please be kind and considerate with your words. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire collective reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you for supporting me in exploring the effects of our society’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member, or peer who might be interested in being a part of the conversation? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about Continued Conversations! While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Continued Conversations with Brittany Brown

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss the impacts of the modeling industry and other themes around the beauty industry and diet culture. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone, please welcome Brittany Brown to Continued Conversations! Brittany and I met through a shared acting community in Los Angeles back in 2019. I knew she was a phenomenal actor, and I also knew she had experience in the modeling industry, so when I started this project, she was on my list of people I wanted to have a conversation with. But it took Brittany sharing a bit more about her experience on “America’s Next Top Model,” once the documentary had been aired, for me to reach out and ask if she’d be open to talking body image with me in this space. And I’m so thankful she was because our conversation was powerful. In our conversation, we discuss… * Brittany’s journey to finding Reiki for her own healing and now starting her own Reiki practice to help others * Giving yourself permission to slow down and rest * As a kid, learning your body is being perceived by others * The intersection of a cut-throat modeling industry and the desire to be a soft and creative artist * Her experience on “America’s Next Top Model” leading her to want to step away from modeling, so she could return to the industry on her own terms * The importance of safe, supportive representation * Truly embracing you, who you are, and your body * Re-teaching our bodies safety after traumatic experiences * Finding freedom in acting * It’s our responsibility to protect our bodies Brittany is truly an incredible light of a woman. She shared so much wisdom in the 45 minutes that we spoke together, and I’m so grateful to her for joining me in discussing parts of her story she hadn’t spoken about in a while. I’m hopeful that anyone who’s gone through something similar to Brittany hears her words and feels seen and validated in her generous vulnerability. In the Instagram post she shared that pulled me to finally reach out to her she shares: “If this documentary sparks conversations about care, consent, and humanity within creative industries, I hope it also makes room for stories of resilience and moving forward.“ So, thank you, Brittany, for opening up in this space with me. And to everyone here reading, get ready for a moving conversation - I cannot wait for you to listen in! “ I know it sounds cheesy too, but even I just tell people, I’m like you really have to embrace you because things are constantly gonna be changing. And if you’re always like, “Well, now I’ve gotta lose 10 pounds,” or “Now I gotta stuff my bra,” I don’t know, just to fit something, if you’re chasing that, it’s never gonna feel aligned. Because trust me, I love throwing on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt and then doing a photo shoot. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s when you feel good, it’s empowering. It’s just when I think maybe it’s giving your power away or how the biggest part for me is learning to not abandon myself in these moments, because no amount of external validation will ever be enough, or it has to come from inside, and people say that, but until you really live it and feel it, I’m like, whew, yeah, that’s very true.” - Brittany Brown Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 10-minute and 54-second mark: Brittany Brown: So I feel lucky in the sense of, when I was a kid, I just wanted to play. And I think when you’re around, I don’t know, sixth grade, I remember a boy on the playground just being like, “Where are your boobs?” And I was like, “I don’t know. They’re just not in yet.” This is so silly. I used to wish, on my birthday, “I wish my boobs would grow.” And then, like I said, being that late bloomer – well, and again, other people just always point out, “You’re so tall,” or “You’re so this,” and I’m like, “Yeah, that’s just my body.” And then I think when I – it was after high school when my body just shifted, and I was like, “Ooh, this is, this is different.” And then that was the time when I went on America’s Next Top Model, and then I’m being told, you know, “Oof, this still doesn’t really quite work. We don’t know where to put you.” And then I’m like, oh, now you’re being evaluated in that sense. And I started to kind of feel like I didn’t have autonomy over my own being, because I was like, “Oh, I’m finally –.” Here we go. I don’t know why this is making me emotional now. You go from being awkward to then feeling good to then still not being enough. And it really messed with me for a long time of just, “Ugh, well, what is my body type? Am I just… I’m not quite tall/skinny enough to be a runway model. I’m not volumptuous. And I just kinda went from caring a lot to kind of just shutting down. Megan Gill: And like disconnecting from – or what do you mean shutting down? Brittany Brown: Especially around the timing of me doing that show was just – I was 18, almost 19. And I was so excited because I was like, “I want to just go, and I want to play, and I love being creative and doing photo shoots”. And then it just so quickly became something that wasn’t really fun. And I know people are like, “It’s a tough – it’s a brutal industry. You need to have thick skin.” And I’m like, I am so soft and so tender. I am one of the most – and for a long time, I would get frustrated like, “Brittany, don’t cry, stop crying!” or, “Don’t be so affected.” And I just had to like really accept myself like, “You’ve always been sensitive, and that doesn’t have to be a bad thing.” So the shutdown thing was just – Megan Gill: That’s your superpower! Brittany Brown: Yeah, I think I’m more – well, I wanted nothing to do with the modeling industry. Megan Gill: After that experience? Brittany Brown: I was just – I came home, and I was just still processing. And other people are like, “Ah!!!” And I’m like, “Huh?” Megan Gill: Yeah. Brittany Brown: It took time. And then I was like if I do this, I want it to be on my terms. I want to find an agency where I feel protected and safe and not constantly just evaluated or… Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely, and supported. Brittany Brown: Yeah! Megan Gill: Because you’re right, the industry is brutal, and I don’t even know the half of it, but I can only imagine that coming off of that show and having people that don’t know what you went through be like, “Oh, my gosh, this is so exciting!” And you’re having to still sit with and process and deal with everything that you had experienced and how your relationship to your body, the work itself, what you once thought was going to be this – what was this fun, enjoyable thing for you has now been tainted. I am just hurting for 19-year-old you who, you’re still a kid in a sense. It’s a lot to process and sit with and manage. Brittany Brown: Yeah, and, I mean, I’m grateful in hindsight because some of the women that I was able to meet through that, that was one of the best parts - connecting in this kind of weird process. And some people could argue like, “Well, you signed up for the show. You went on.” And I’m like, yes, I did sign up for the show, but I didn’t sign up for other manipulation or other things that kind of took place, and I was the one who had to come home and then live my life and do the work on healing from that. So it’s a journey. Megan Gill: Yeah, and it’s also hard for people to say that. Well, yes, but also you would hope – one would hope that going on a show like that would not have been such a difficult experience to go through. You would hope that it would – the pros would outweigh the cons in it to an extent. And I don’t mean to speak for you and say the cons outweighed the pros, but it’s like – I don’t know. I don’t know. Brittany Brown: Yeah. No, I know what you mean because I remember I got home, and I was in Arizona, and I think an agency wanted to meet with me, and I was very much just like, “I don’t want to do that.” I was just like, “Mm, mm-mm.” And I think I waited almost a year. I did end up being signed, and I was like, “Oh, this is okay.” I moved to LA shortly after that as well, but I remember just being like – also, I was like I like acting way better because I feel like in modeling it’s so much about how you look, which is also frustrating because – I don’t hate modeling. I love being creative and moving your body, and I just – I hate the bad rap that it’s gotten, but it’s gotten that for a reason, you know? Megan Gill: Yeah, it is unfortunate. And, okay, a couple things here, because I do want to talk more about your journey into acting and kind of how that evolved your story and your relationship to your self-image. But I’m also thinking it’s so tough in our society today, where ten years ago, we were having this like body positivity movement, and we were getting all different shapes and sizes of bodies in our media. And now it’s – god, I saw something this morning about I don’t know, just the, the way that our society is now leaning back towards like everyone is very, very small. Brittany Brown: Yeah. It does. It becomes things are more in or trendy. Megan Gill: That’s like a testament to – that made me think when you were it’s not that you don’t like modeling, or that you like dislike the modeling industry or like the creative act of modeling, but it’s hard when the confines of it are being manipulated by brands and by trends. And it’s so hard to keep up and feel… yeah. I’m rambling. Brittany Brown: Yeah. It’s almost like – no, you’re not. I know it sounds cheesy too, but even I just tell people, I’m like you really have to embrace you because things are constantly gonna be changing. And if you’re always like, “Well, now I’ve gotta lose 10 pounds,” or “Now I gotta stuff my bra,” I don’t know, just to fit something, if you’re chasing that, it’s never gonna feel aligned. Because trust me, I love throwing on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt and then doing a photo shoot. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s when you feel good, it’s empowering. It’s just when I think maybe it’s giving your power away or how the biggest part for me is learning to not abandon myself in these moments, because no amount of external validation will ever be enough, or it has to come from inside, and people say that, but until you really live it and feel it, I’m like, whew, yeah, that’s very true. Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. And it just reminds me of it being in partnership too or being in friendship, being in relationship with others, it’s like no other person can validate you as much as you can yourself. If you are not accepting of yourself and showing yourself that love and care and kindness and compassion, no one else can do it for you. It’s a similar concept, you know? Brittany Brown: Oh, it’s still hard though. I remember I did a student film through I think UCLA, I don’t know, ten years ago, and they did a little screening of it, and I just remember I was sitting next to my sister, and I was like – I couldn’t even watch myself. I was just like – all I saw was my flaws. I was like, “Oh my gosh, Brittany, you look like Grumpy Cat when you’re on screen. This is terrible.” And my sister was just like, “What are you talking about?” And I couldn’t even look at it as art or telling a story because I was so hyper-focused on picking apart my appearance. It’s just mind-blowing. And then that also sucked because I love theater. I love moving my body. I love being quirky. And it’s a very weird experience when you go from that to, “Oh my gosh, but how am I being perceived?” And that was, I think, the trauma from America’s Next Top Model that kind of just like, whew! And then I went, “Oh, that’s the lens I’m looking at. But no one’s out to get me or make me look bad anymore, so why? Whew. Let’s let that go so we can just feel free.” Megan Gill: Yeah, to be embodied in the play and in the joy and in the expression of the art form, whether it is modeling now or acting on camera or on stage. But you’re right, that is so so hard, and it’s so hard to teach our bodies that they are safe in those moments when you’ve experienced something that led you to feel unsafe in the expression or thereafter. I mean, it took me years to feel comfortable enough in my body as an actor, way too long. Brittany Brown: Yeah. Megan Gill: It’s nuts to think that my whole college career, I was just so focused on how I was being perceived in my body that I didn’t even dive into the art form of it all. It’s wild! I’m like, wow. I could have been learning so much more, but instead my brain space was just taken up and all consumed by the way I looked. Brittany Brown: And I am curious, for you, if you kind of feel the same way of being – do you – with modeling and acting, because you do both, do you feel more of a sense of freedom in acting, or how do you kind of…? Megan Gill: Now, yes, because I think that I’ve been acting for so long, and I feel like I have grown in such a lovely way with my acting to this place where it’s so much easier for me to be embodied and be in story and not worry about what anyone’s thinking about me. But when it comes to modeling, it’s like I really don’t know what I’m doing. Technically speaking, there are things that I’m like – so a lot of times, I’m faking it till I’m making in that realm. Not with fit modeling, but if I have um an e-comm casting or something, I’m like, “Ha!” I do not excel in this area. So I’m just showing up and, ultimately, this is me. If you like my look enough – like you said, unfortunately, so much of it is about look. “If you like me enough, then you’ll work with whatever weird thing my hands are doing,” you know? Brittany Brown: Yeah. Megan Gill: Yeah, I feel a lot more freedom in my acting, but I think it’s also because what I’ve come to learn – and I’m curious to know if you feel similarly – is that more goes in acting. More things pass. The human nuance when you’re acting and when movement is involved and it’s not just – not that all modeling is still photography, but I don’t know, it’s just more things I feel like can be included. And maybe this is a lesson in more things could be included in the modeling realm too, but… yeah. Yeah, I feel just like freedom. Brittany Brown: Yeah, I remember too the freedom that I felt for some reason of it doesn’t matter how your hair looks right now, it doesn’t matter if you have a triple chin when you’re thinking or angry. It doesn’t matter when you’re onstage or you’re doing something, you know, it just, to me, felt like, “Oh my gosh!” I get that way, especially with live auditions. If I can feel that level of freedom, it just feels like permission to just be. Yeah, I feel like you don’t really have that when you’re modeling, but maybe that’s just I just could never get there with it. Megan Gill: I mean, even still, if I do a photoshoot now, and even if it’s just for me, it’s like there is an added level of pressure, and maybe because in my head it’s not “storytelling” in the way that if I’m creating a short film or something, acting in a short film. That is like, “Okay, gotta give it up because story, story. That’s what matters. That’s what matters.” But it’s like, “Yeah, I’m just doing a photoshoot for myself!” So then all of a sudden the pressure’s on, and I’m like, “Oh, god. Everything has to be perfect.” But it’s like, no! We’re humans. We’re not perfect. And it’s okay if – god, it really took me a long time to get to this place of I just took headshots recently, and my belly button was showing in some of the photos, and I’m like do I still have – parts of me still have like feelings about that like, “Ugh, god, ugly.” But then I just do the work to be like, “No. That? No. We have done so much work to accept our belly. No! She deserves to make her freaking appearance. She deserves to be here!” Brittany Brown: Yeah. Megan Gill: So there’s always going to be that, “Ugh,” you know? Brittany Brown: Oh, yeah. Megan Gill: Like how you said when you were watching yourself in the film, but it’s like hopefully we can do enough work, consistent work, because it’s never-fucking-ending to get to a place where we can have those thoughts, but then be like, “Okay, let’s hold our own hand and be like, “But… It’s okay! You are still good, and you are still talented and incredible and wonderful.” Brittany Brown: Yeah. Oh, yeah, you just brought me back. Now, I love being tender, and I love people with opinions, and I’m just like, “Ah! Great!” I remember when I got home from the show, and I had looked up an ANTM fandom website where someone had edited pictures of my face, of what they thought would make my face a better face. And I was just like – that hurt at the time. And then now I’m like who cares? People are always gonna have this opinion, and if I sat and looked and read everything, oh my gosh, that would be terrible. So why even go there? Yeah. Megan Gill: Right, it’s almost like we get to hand that back to those people. Like, if you feel like you need to say something like that about somebody else’s body, then that’s something that you have to sit with. I think it’s hard to have that realization that that’s theirs to carry, not ours to take on, because it’s, in this case, literally about your body. So it’s really difficult to be able to separate it. But that’s really cool to hear that you have come this far to be able to be like, “That’s on you, man.” Brittany Brown: Yeah, or I just don’t even want to look. I don’t even look any… yeah. Megan Gill: Yeah, because it doesn’t matter. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Ooh, I’m curious to know – and maybe we’ve touched on some of this, so forgive me if it’s kind of a repeat, but I’m curious to know how your relationship with your body today is different than it was ten years ago, which I know we’ve kind of talked about. But, I don’t know! If there’s anything else that’s coming up for you when it comes to that? Brittany Brown: So that inner fun child is definitely still here because I want work to always feel like play and freedom, right? If we’re like, “Ahh!” But some of the tender topics, I think, are still there a little bit. But I am 32 now. You know, I’m not 22. So the need to seek out the validation isn’t really there anymore, which feels like responsibility, actually, because then it’s like, okay, then let’s tend to our body. That is even why I do this work now is because I want to show my body love, safety. It’s my responsibility to protect her. So it feels like strength, but that comes from a very tender place. Megan Gill: That’s really powerful and lovely and very, very eloquently put. “I feel like [my favorite thing about my body] changes too, but I’m gonna say my hands, I feel like I don’t give them enough credit. They hold things. There’s something so cool and kind of mystical about the hands.” - Brittany Brown Brittany is an actress currently based in Arizona, with a deep love for theatre and storytelling that has been a part of her life for as long as she can remember. She has also worked as a model, an experience that shaped her understanding of self-expression, confidence, and the complexity of being seen. Recently, she has been exploring energy work, holding space for others to reconnect with themselves and their own healing. She is passionate about the intersection of creativity, authenticity, and personal growth, and how those elements come together to shape who we are. Follow Brittany on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/brittbrownmeow/] Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * In light of this, please feel free to support the guests of this Substack Series in the comments. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you for supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member, or peer who might want to join in the conversation? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about Continued Conversations While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Continued Conversations with Katie Stone

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss chronic health conditions, diet, and body measurements. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone, please welcome Katie Stone to Continued Conversations! Katie and I were connected through a friend of mine, Alia Parise, who I previously spoke with on [https://www.continuedconvos.com/p/continued-conversations-with-alia?r=25eay4]Continued Conversations [https://www.continuedconvos.com/p/continued-conversations-with-alia?r=25eay4]. (Thank you, Alia - we love you!) Katie is also a fellow fit model and print model, and when she had mentioned she has a condition called adenomyosis that she is starting to talk more publicly about, I knew we had to chat. After all she’s been through with her condition, Katie’s outlook on her life and her relationship to her body now is extremely inspiring. She opens up about her story and shares so beautifully all that she’s gone through that led her to where she’s at now in terms of how she’s relating to her body. She shares so much about her own story in our conversation, and I know she hopes to reach others in doing so too. [Keep an eye out because this woman is going to write a book one day!!!] In our conversation, we discuss… * Katie’s health journey that led to her adenomyosis diagnosis * Educating yourself and caring for your body through that lens while struggling with a chronic health condition becomes your part-time or full-time job * Radical acceptance of her pain, coupled with science and spirituality, allowed her to begin to heal her body * The Dutch Test gave her a breakdown of her hormones * Having to give up coffee, even though she loves it so much - the sacrifices she has had to make to feel good in her body * How she deeply listened to her body when it told her not to get a hysterectomy * Katie’s serendipitous discovery of her doctor, who changed everything (who’s also named Katie) * The toll stress, coupled with genetics, diet, and lifestyle, can truly take on our bodies * How to cope when feeling out of control in your own body * Katie’s journy towards opening up about her story and listening to her own heart * Being honest with a client (or anyone, really) instead of pretending everything is okay Katie’s vulnerability in sharing her story was admirable. She got into the nitty-gritty of the intersection of science and spirituality when it comes to how she is healing her body. Despite her journey and all she’s been through, Katie is such a light of a human, and I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation! “ I want other women to understand that they’re not the only ones going through this. That it is so confusing, and it’s frustrating, and I get it. And I have just been the type of person where I don’t accept just giving up in my life. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept, “Well, I guess I’m gonna have to remove my entire uterus because there’s nothing else I can do, and I’m at the mercy of people telling me what I should be doing." I just – and trust me, I have worked with amazing gynecologists, you know, just people who really do care about me and my wellbeing. But this is just how the world works. You do have to do your own research. You do have to find people you work with, that you work well together. You do need to approach it in a holistic sense, in my opinion, if you don’t want to go down that route.” - Katie Stone Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 28-minute and 2-second mark: Katie Stone: I’ve had to navigate through all of this while still doing all of the work that I do. And but, you know, health comes first and foremost because it affects everything else in my life. So it’s like, I know that I need to prioritize this, even if that means that maybe I don’t get a casting one day because I’m just not the right measurements because maybe I’ve been eating a certain way for a few months, and it’s actually made me smaller, and now I’m not those measurements anymore, but I want to bounce back, you know? And so, it’s just a matter of being aware of what’s going on and understanding that you have to just love your body. You have to love yourself going through this. You really do, because it’s difficult and I don’t want to make it worse for myself ultimately. Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. I think that that’s such an important piece of the conversation, that even when you are dealing with so many of these things that are so out of your control – granted, I do think that just living in a body, generally speaking, we think we can control all these little things about ourselves, but we can’t. And then you add a condition like adenomyosis on top of that, and you’re like, “Wow, I really have no control,” especially with the elimination from your diet and trying different things here and there. It’s like, oh my god, it seems as if it’s what the average person experiences, yet tenfold. Katie Stone: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And again, people sometimes have no idea that I go through this because I’m not the type to complain a lot. I’m not the type to just, you know, publicly share so much about all of the details that I go through, because it is very sensitive stuff, and I want to share it because I want other people to be aware, first of all. And I want other women to understand that they’re not the only ones going through this. That it is so confusing, and it’s frustrating, and I get it. And I have just been the type of person where I don’t accept just giving up in my life. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept, “Well, I guess I’m gonna have to remove my entire uterus because there’s nothing else I can do, and I’m at the mercy of people telling me what I should be doing.” I just – and trust me, I have worked with amazing gynecologists, you know, just people who really do care about me and my wellbeing. But this is just how the world works. You do have to do your own research. You do have to find people you work with, that you work well together. You do need to approach it in a holistic sense, in my opinion, if you don’t want to go down that route, and I didn’t. It’s not specifically because I want to have kids or anything that. It’s more so because this is my body, and that’s such a drastic move to have to remove something completely from your body. And then when you think about it – and I know that this has helped so many women out there, you know, having that type of surgery, and I completely get that and support people in their decision, no matter what they do. But for me personally, I just didn’t want to go down that route. And you know, when you remove an organ from your body, that doesn’t necessarily mean you completely solve the problem, you know? Because you’re not understanding, again, why the inflammation is happening to begin with and what’s going on with your hormones. You could still be doing things like, you know, stress levels and things that, that are affecting you even if you do remove your uterus. So I just like, logically just thought like, “Well, but I want to know what’s going on in my body, you know, and I want to figure that out.” I want to have a working relationship with my body versus thinking of it as something just like, “Okay, I’ll just remove this,” you know, as a project or something. Megan Gill: Yeah, like a curiosity about deepening that connection to your body that had not been present for so long. And I don’t mean to say that so black and white, but just getting more and more connected. this body that you felt you were disconnected to previously when you had first started going through all of this is deeply important, and that makes so much sense and is so beautiful. And I’m also curious about, earlier you mentioned that there was a whisper telling you not to have the surgery and not to remove your uterus. Katie Stone: Yes. Yeah. Megan Gill: I’m curious to hear more about that because that’s also like – I love that you listen to that. That is deep listening to what your body is telling you. And I think that so many people cannot or do not listen to themselves in that way, you know? Katie Stone: Yeah, no, that’s an amazing point, and I’m really glad you brought that up because that was a really big turning point for me because I was at the end of the line. I was just like, “Okay, I don’t know what else to do.” I was so frustrated. Megan, I was so frustrated. You know, it was probably summer of last year. Yeah, summer of last year, and I was so frustrated at that point, and I exhausted everything, or so I thought at that time, and I was just like, “You know what? Forget it. I’m just gonna get the surgery.” I had scheduled it; I actually had scheduled the surgery. I put it on the calendar, you know, with the surgery scheduler and and everything, you know. And then, because it takes a long time to schedule those types of surgeries, I had a few months, and I was like, “Okay, if I don’t figure it out in the next few months, I already have it on the calendar, and I’ll do it.” So that really put my butt into gear to figure it out. And I have to give a giant shout-out to my mom, because she heavily helped me throughout this. And she was very much on my side of like, “Whatever you want to do, I support. But I do think we should give it one last shot just to see if we can find someone out there who specializes in this.” Because I had talked to nutritionists in the past. I had talked to more holistic types of doctors, Chinese, you know, medicine, and things that. I’ve done so many things, you know, acupuncture and things that. And it just, nothing was working enough. And that’s why I was like, “Well, I tried that, so why would I keep trying that?” So that’s why I was just at this point where I was like, “Screw it. I’m just gonna get the surgery.” But then my mom was like, “Let’s just try it one more time. Like, what do we have to lose? Just one more time, just maybe do a little bit more research. You have a different perspective now. If you can find someone to help you, great.” So then I searched for just dieticians or nutritionists – because I know there’s a difference – but dieticians who specialize in this menstrual condition, I searched for that in Los Angeles, and there were about five to ten that came up that I looked into a little further. I contacted a few. I set up a few calls with them, consultations. I talked to three different people, ultimately. One, she was really great. Wasn’t crazy about her systems, but she had amazing knowledge. Another one I talked to, she was great as well, but she ended up telling me, “I don’t think I’m the right person for you, but I do know someone in my network who I think would be really great if you talk to her instead.” And she said, “I don’t know if she’s taking new clients, but it might be worth a shot just to share your story with her and see what happens.” So then I emailed her, and her name’s also Katie. I emailed her immediately, and I shared my story with her as to – I was just – I just gave everything I got. I was like, “This is what I’ve gone through. This is what I need. Can you help me?” And she messaged me back pretty fast and said, “Let’s work together. I want to help you.” And I was just like – my heart was just like, “Oh my god, thank god. Thank god I found someone. I hope this works out,” you know? Because I still didn’t fully know. And then we got on a call. I loved her style and her system. Her brain works mine. I was like, “This is great.” You know, she had worked with a few, just a few, other women who had this condition and successfully, you know, got them stable to the point in their lives where it’s just more manageable, you know, and that’s all I wanted. I just wanted to be more manageable. I know this is something I’m gonna have to deal with until I go through menopause. That’s just how it works, you know, because you can’t just completely get rid of this, as far as I know. So that’s all I wanted. And so I’ve been working with her since then. And again, she’s someone that I had to find on my own. It’s very specific to my needs, and everything that she has treated me with, very specific. For other women, I highly recommend that they talk to a dietician if they’re going through anything remotely similar to what I’m going through and get some testing done. A Dutch test is fantastic for that. I even also recently did a gut biome test where I tested out to see what’s going on, you know, in my intestines, because that has a direct impact on. Your hormones as well, you know, your digestive system. If that’s all out of whack too, then – the two go hand in hand. They work together .your hormones and your reproductive system and all of that, plus what’s going on in your gut. So I knew that that was important. We recently did that too. And again, mind-blowing data that I learned just from going through that, and her going through the information with me. You know, because a lot of the times too, when you’re online, there are so many people out there just trying to be like, “Oh, this is what you should do. This is the product you should try. This is the supplement mission to try,” and it’s overwhelming. And that’s why I think it’s so important to find the right person to work with you. I don’t think there’s one answer or one product or one solution that’s gonna solve everything, because I’ve been there, done that, and it’s just not the case. So you have to have it specialized to your body and what’s going on specifically inside of you. But I highly recommend to do that testing, and of course, work with your doctors at the same time, but then also work with the dietician to help you get that testing done, to understand what’s exactly going on in your body, so that you can get a plan tailored specifically to you. So we ordered some supplements and changed up my diet, incorporated more breathwork into my life, and all that. And I’m till going through the process, but it has significantly improved since working with her, significantly improved. First of all, I’m not bleeding the entire month. I’m not dealing with just this bleeding, this constant bleeding. There was a time where I was – it wasn’t heavy every single day, but I was bleeding every single day for a month at one point. Megan Gill: Oh, my gosh. Katie Stone: So I was like, if we could at least just get to the point where I’m just having a period and not like – great! You know, and we got to that point because of the supplements and just understanding that my hormones weren’t communicating properly together, they weren’t working like they should. And so, by getting to that first issue and solving that, I was like, okay, now I can just be a normal person, and just, yes, I’m still gonna have these horrible periods, but at least I’m not dealing with this every single day, you know? So, yeah. So it just took a matter of just me and my refusal to give up on myself and understand that there’s this intuition in all of us. There is something that you feel inside of you, and from my experience. When I don’t listen to it, it’ll creep back in at some point, and it’s just gonna be like, “Hey, come on. I know you hear me. Are you gonna listen to me? Are you gonna use your brain too much, or are you gonna listen to your heart?” You know? And so, that’s kind of what I’ve been practicing more, just listening to my heart more than trying to brain my way through. Yes, of course, you have to use your brain too, you know? But I think it’s both heavily. Because there were so many times where I thought, “No, I’m just gonna get the surgery. Like, I don’t want to go through this anymore. What if I try all these things and they don’t work? You know, what if I just waste all this time, and I could have just gotten the surgery and been done with it,” and all of that. There were so many times where I felt that, but again, there was this intuition, and again, my mom that just kept creeping back in and telling me, “Just wait. Just wait a little bit longer. Just try this first and see how you feel.” And I literally, I think it was today or yesterday where I canceled the surgery appointment finally. It’s off my calendar because I said to myself, “I’m not gonna do it. I’m done. I, for sure, have made up my mind that I’m not going down that route because of the results that I’ve seen so far, and I am just scared as to what that would even look like for me if I did get the surgery, afterward, meaning, you know? Because there’s so much that could come up from that, during and after. So many women have had successful procedures done. I get that. But for me, I’m just listening to my heart and just realizing that that just wasn’t the right path for me, and to just do everything I possibly can to make sure that I feel good and solid about my decision and moving forward. Megan Gill: I think that, wow, that is extremely profound. And I also just want to point out that you stopped running from your body. You stopped, to me, symbolically getting the surgery and removing this thing from your body is still running, right? And instead, you chose to take the potentially more difficult route and the potentially longer route and to become more embodied and to turn inward, and to really try to figure out going on, and to work with your body and to nurture your body in certain ways, and to give it what’s going to help it function better for you, and to maybe eliminate something that you love so much, but that’s not helping it function in the way that you need it to. And I just think that that is extremely admirable and a really beautiful part of your story. Katie Stone: Thank you. Megan Gill: And I just wanted to reflect that back to you. Sitting here listening, I’m like, that’s incredible because it’s sometimes so much easier to just run from the thing and just wipe your hands clean of it, even if it potentially might not have been the ultimate solve, like you were saying, right? Katie Stone: Yeah. Megan Gill: So I just really commend you for making the conscious decision to work through this condition and to work with your body and to hold your own hand all the way through it. Katie Stone: Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that too, because again, when you’re going through all this, it can feel – I mean I know I have a lot of people in my life who care about me and who are supportive and all of that, but it can feel very lonely sometimes just because I am literally the only one who knows exactly what I’m going through and what’s right for me, because I’m the one experiencing it. ““There were so many times where I just wanted to run away from my own body. I felt like my body had betrayed me. I felt so disconnected because I couldn’t understand why this was happening to me. I couldn’t understand what I needed to do about it. I couldn’t understand why all the things that I had been doing, they weren’t enough. And you know, I hit my head so many times on the wall just trying to figure it out, you know? And then finally, over time, I just surrendered to it. I just accepted the fact that this is just where I’m at in my life right now. This is just what I’m going through. I don’t have all the answers. It’s okay. I’m gonna love myself throughout this process, even though I hate it sometimes, and even though, you know, there were so many times where I was just sitting there being like, “Why me? Like, why is this happening to me?” I didn’t know anyone else that had been going through anything like I had been going through. So I felt very alone sometimes.” - Katie Stone Katie Stone is a Los Angeles based model and speaker navigating adenomyosis while building a career that depends on her body. While managing severe pain and bleeding that required four blood transfusions, she pursued conventional medical treatments and gradually incorporated holistic approaches in an effort to better understand her body and find sustainable stability. She speaks about the intersection of chronic illness, identity, and learning to build trust with a body that doesn’t always feel predictable. Follow Katie’s Journey on Instagram! [https://www.instagram.com/k.atiemarie/] Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments. * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations! While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Continued Conversations with Alena Acker

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss themes around body image, diet culture, and weight loss. Please take care of yourselves as you listen and avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone please welcome Alena Acker to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Alena is another wonderful actor and human that I met through Amy McNabb’s The Spark [https://actorsencouraged.com/join-the-spark] Membership, and I was so thrilled to sit down and chat with her. I’m so grateful to Alena for her kind heart and vulnerability in our conversation to share some opposing ideas when it comes to body image and general health, prevention, and wellbeing, in hopes that it reaches someone who needs to hear it. Alena also shares a pretty incredible perspective on being a fat actor and hoping to be the representation for others that she needed when she was younger. I know you’re going to enjoy hearing about her body image story, and just get ready to soak in all of the wisdom she shares in our conversation. In our conversation, we discuss… * Reclaiming the word “fat” and not demonizing it * Weight cycling and the impacts of the generational weight loss cycle * Alena’s choice to stop dieting and accept her body after experiencing the loss of her dad * The tie between Alena’s acceptance of herself and her acting career taking off * Being the representation on screen that she needed when she was a kid (that we ALL needed when we were kids) * The inundation of cultural ideals we’re almost brainwashed by * The nuance of accepting your body now, in this moment, and still taking the steps to prevent predisposition to heart disease by way of GLP-1 * The fear, as an actor, of your body and appearance drastically changing, and how that could affect your career * Doing what is best for you and your body, and trusting yourself when it comes to knowing what’s best I cannot wait for you to hear our conversation! “I want to be around for a long time, and I want to be able to tell these stories. And if my body becomes different, then it’s just, you know, a different body type that I’m representing. And I’ve always felt like sort of a weirdo and an oddball, and I still get to represent the weirdos and oddballs in the world at any weight. It’s been an interesting challenge because we think of loving ourself at any weight, or any shape or any size, as having more to do with if we get larger, if we get older, you know? But it’s like if you’re gonna do it, then you have to do it all the way, no matter what direction your body changes in.” - Alena Acker Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at around the 1-minute & 52-second mark: Alena Acker: It’s interesting. When I was younger, people would say, “Oh, you’re not fat,” or “You’re not that fat.” And what they meant was “You’re not a bad person. I don’t think that you’re lazy or undisciplined or bad,” because those are often – or at least back then in the eighties and nineties, especially, those were things that came along with the word fat. So yeah, it’s one of those things where I’m I think it’s okay to be fat, and I think it’s okay to say that you’re fat. And that it, yeah, just shouldn’t be negative. Megan Gill: Right. I absolutely agree with you. I saw this post recently about the belly and how it’s also demonized in a similar sense. Whereas, if you have a soft belly and if you have a soft body in general, that you are seen as weak or not disciplined enough. And it’s very much still a theme today. As deep as it went, in the nineties and early two thousands, it’s no, it’s still present here with us today. Yeah. Alena Acker: It is. Yeah, it is. It feels we’re in a rough moment with this right now because it did seem I don’t know, a few years ago, five, ten years ago, this movement – at least in my perception of things – it seemed oh, there’s this movement that’s really gathering steam, that’s all about body positivity and body diversity and, you know, being able to love yourself and your body regardless of the size and shape of it. Now it feels we’re sort of, I don’t know, regressing a little bit, and we’re in a moment where it seems there’s a big moment that’s sort of trying to get rid of all the diversity in our country. It’s really, really sad. It’s really awful. And, you know, I think body diversity is, you know, a part of that too. Megan Gill: I absolutely agree, and it is really scary. We are in trying times, and it’s sad because, in terms of body liberation, it’s like we have come so far, and yet we aren’t able to fully live freely within that because, here we are again, yet having to fight back at the patriarchy and fight back here and fight back there. The conversation’s being had because we’re still in the cycle of the fight instead of just being able to live, which is frustrating because it did feel like, for so long, within the last span of ten years, I’d say, and during the pandemic body positivity and body neutrality were becoming such big important liberating movements and now it’s just hard to see it… Alena Acker: And it was so inspiring for me to see younger people than myself, because I’m middle-aged, you know, just really embracing and sharing these ideas and being like, “Oh, wow. What a different and wonderful way to think,” and it helped me to sort of look at and face some of my own internalized fatphobia, you know? So yeah. So it’s a real bummer that we’re kind of in, you know, one of those sort of valleys of the fight, I guess. You know, things go up and down, and it feels like we’re in a bit of a down spot right now, which is rough. Megan Gill: Yeah, absolutely. As an actor, I’m curious, as someone who is using your body as your instrument onstage, on screen, probably daily in auditions, and just having it be such a forefront of your life’s work in that sense and your career, I am curious – and this is also kind of a convoluted question here – but how your relationship to your body has influenced your work and your career and your journey as an actor? Alena Acker: Yeah, what a wonderful question. I’m going to take it way back to when I was a kid, because I kind of always knew I wanted to be an actor. It was like I was taken to the touring company production of Cats as a 6-year-old, and I was like, “Hold on. Are you telling me there’s a job where you can act like a cat, and people come and watch you do it and applaud that? Sign me up!” You know, “This is definitely what I want.” But as a young person, I really only focused on theater. I really only thought I could do theater because I just didn’t see hardly any women, especially with my body type, on screen. So it was just, it was I thought these were facts. I was like, “Oh, well, I can’t do film or TV because fat people can’t be on film or TV, so I’m gonna do theater!” And, you know, it didn’t even occur to me at that point that it was a possibility. And, you know, weight has, has kind of always been a part of my life. My mom put me in a kid’s – I’m getting emotional thinking about this. She put me in a kid’s weight loss program when I was 12 years old. And I’m someone who has weight cycled about five different times in my life, so what I mean by that is I would lose a significant amount of my body weight, let’s say 20-25%, and then gain it back, you know, and then lose it again, and then gain it back. And so, you know, it started at that super young age, and you know, my mom had her own struggles with this, and she was doing what she thought was the best thing for me to help me, you know, to help my health, to help me perhaps not make what she perceived as mistakes that she had made. And I’m also a lifelong vegetarian. I was a really picky eater as a child, so I think she was also just like – she kind of was like, “What do I feed this kid? I don’t know how to –.” She just kind of didn’t know what to do. And luckily for us, we’ve since had conversations in adulthood where I’ve said, “I need to know that I am okay no matter my weight and no matter the size and shape of my body. That I know you were trying to help me. But what you did was make me feel there was something fundamentally wrong with me.” And that’s, you know, that’s a very harmful thing for a person to feel. And, you know, I can only imagine how much worse it is when you’re at the intersection of if you’re fat and queer and a black or brown person. It’s not great to grow up thinking that you have this deep, deep flaw. So it was something that I, you know, just didn’t even think about film or TV. My body’s been many different shapes and sizes and weights over the years, but after coming to New York, I started to find a little bit more success in that on-camera world. And I think the industry also just started to open up in those years, and you started to see more people with a wider variety of shapes and sizes. And so, it was like, “Oh, oh, this is something I could do.” Megan Gill: Wow. Yeah. Alena Acker: And I eventually reached a point where I started to feel like, you know what? I’m okay the way that I am. And that, you know, comes from a lot of therapy, a lot of talking to other friends who are fat, just learning, experiencing things. But I got to a point, I had lost a bunch of weight again in like 2019, and then in 2021, my dad passed away. And it was during the experience of that happening that I gained the weight back because it was it stressful, and nobody wants to sit there and count calories when someone very important to you is dying. Megan Gill: Wow, yeah. Alena Acker: And so, it was after that point that I was like I’m done. I’m done with diets. I’m done losing weight and gaining it back again. This is just gonna be it, and what I’m really gonna work on now just accepting who I am no matter what, you know, and sort of unpacking what have these feelings from youth about myself and about having something wrong with myself, just where do they come from and why are they there, and when are they popping up, and how can I reframe them for myself. And so, I really got to this point where I was like I don’t care about that anymore. I can have confidence. I can love myself. It’s normal for a person’s body to change over the course of their life. And I started to see my career take off a little bit more at that point. So I started booking more commercials, and I got this role in an off-Broadway play. It was a revival of Tennessee Williams’ The Night of the Iguana. And in this play, I had to wear a 1930s, 1940s-style bathing suit onstage for pretty much the entire time. And I felt okay about it, you know? It was really – it was so cool. I was like just like, “Oh, yeah!” And I have, you know, this cellulite on my thighs, and I’m running around. And part of what made that okay for me is that I was like this character does not care. This character gives zero fucks about what anybody else thinks of her. I’m playing a pair of obnoxious tourists, so it was really fun to play this role where she’s just laughing maniacally and running around and driving everybody nuts and just wearing this bathing suit. And it was, I mean, an incredible experience for many reasons. I got to work with some of my heroes and get to know them, and I now get to call them friends. And these two wonderful actresses who I really think I was put in that dressing room with them because they are both so unapologetic and so wonderful at standing up for themselves. So that was a really wonderful experience. And one of the things that has helped me a lot when I have these moments, because we all have a moment, you know, when you are in a TV show, when you’re on a commercial, you’re not controlling the camera angles, you know? It’s not your own personal Instagram where you’re you know, doing your poses, working your angles. You get to pick out, you know, the best. And even with headshots and things, you get to pick the ones that you before you share them with people to help you decide. So we all have these moments of, “Oh, god, is that what I look like?” Or, “Oh…” Megan Gill: Yeah, and not to mention when you’re seeing yourself reflected on camera, which, what’s the age-old trope? “The camera adds ten pounds,” or whatever people wanna say, you know? Alena Acker: Right, I mean, it’s a flattening of a three-dimensional being into two dimensions. So you’re gonna look – it also can feel weird to us to hear our voice recorded back, to sort of see things in this different way than they go on from – than they feel in our own bodies, you know? Megan Gill: Yeah. Right, yeah. Alena Acker: But the thing that has really helped me in those moments is to remember that we want to show all of humanity in our TV shows, on our commercials, in the art that we make. That it’s we want to represent everyone, or at least I think the best art that’s out there does that. Megan Gill: I agree. Alena Acker: And so, if I’m like, “Oh my god, had no idea I had so many chins,” I can say to myself, “What if there’s somebody out there who sees this, and for a minute, they feel like, “Oh, well that lady on that commercial looks me, so maybe I’m not so bad,” or “So maybe it’s fine,” or “Maybe the way I look is normal,” you know? There could be someone out there who’s excited see me on camera. There could be somebody out there – thankfully, I don’t think it’s quite the way it was when I was a kid, but in a way, I get to be that person that I didn’t really see – Megan Gill: Oh, that you needed! Alena Acker: – when I was little. You know? Megan Gill: Oh, my god, yeah. Alena Acker: So that feels really exciting to get to represent people who may feel underrepresented in media or to get to reflect back to someone something that feels, you know, representative of them. That’s really exciting. And so, that’s been a really powerful reframe for me is just being able to, anytime I catch myself in one of those moments, be like, “Well, somebody’s gonna feel happy to see someone who looks like me exactly as I look in this particular frame, in this particular project. Megan Gill: Yeah. That’s so powerful. And someone’s gonna feel seen in seeing you in this way, which is… Alena Acker: Exactly, exactly. Megan Gill: Ah, and just even hearing you say that you are being the person on camera, or on screen, who you little-you needed to see. And I think that sometimes the reframes are just so needed to pull us out of our own heads too and to just remind us why we’re doing this thing in the first place. Alena Acker: Yeah. Megan Gill: Because it’s so easy – especially when our bodies are the forefront of our work. It’s so easy to – I know from experience, as well, being an actor. We hyper-fixate, over-obsess about what we look like and try to control every little thing, and it’s hard to let go of control and to accept and to say, “Nope. Yep, I I’m gonna show up –.” I’m in my mid-thirties, but I am really, really trying to not give into Botox, so I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, no, it’s okay,” seeing my crow’s feet and my forehead wrinkles. I just got headshots taken a couple weeks ago and got ‘em back, and I was like, “Wow, never seen these forehead wrinkles,” the way I had in that shoot. But I’m doing a similar reframe as you like, yes, no, but for me, and for my mission as an actor, this is good because this is what happens when you age. This is normal for someone in her mid-thirties to have them. We’re gonna roll with it because that’s what we’re doing right now for us. That might not work for somebody else, but yeah, the reframe is really powerful, so thank you for sharing that. Alena Acker: Yeah, because it’s like how can we get to a point where people feel less pressure to do these things unless they can see an example of what it is, too. Megan Gill: Yeah. Alena Acker: And these kinds of decisions are up to people as individuals and what they need to do, but I do feel it’s like people need to know what the alternative looks like. These sort of brainwashing “ideals” that we are inundated with. Megan Gill: Yes. And what’s interesting is that the way in which we are inundated with them is via the media, and yet here we are in the media trying to counteract that. So it’s just this interesting opposition and nuance that we’re holding here with wow, it all exists under the umbrella of the media. But also I do think it’s really cool and powerful, as actors, to be able to show up in that way and to kind of try to fight back and counteract all of that brainwashing. If we can do anything here during our time as artists, how cool is that, right? Alena Acker: I mean, I think it’s very cool. Megan Gill: Yeah. Alena Acker: And so, it’s interesting though, because I do have a little bit of a curve ball for you. Megan Gill: Okay, great. Alena Acker: All of this kind of said. So I’ve gotten to this place where I’m like all right, I can represent people, and I can be happy about that and proud of that. And I can accept my body the way it is now, in this moment, and accept myself for who I am and love myself. And it’s always, I think, gonna be an ongoing thing of remembering to do that, remembering that it’s like, “Okay, I love me. I’m okay the way I am.” You need those reminders. It’s not like you just become cured. Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s ongoing work, for sure. Alena Acker: It is ongoing work. But my curve ball is this, which is that a few months ago I found out that I have a genetic predisposition for heart disease. So it’s called Lipoprotein(a). It’s a subfactor of your LDL cholesterol, or a sub-particle, and it’s sticky. So it sticks to your your blood vessels, and it makes you more likely to develop cardiovascular disease, heart disease, stroke, heart attack, you know, things like that, which are serious concerns. Because heart disease kills more people in our country than all the cancers combined each year. So I found this out, and I saw a cardiologist, and he was like, “So this is a thing that, at this point in medicine, there’s nothing we can do about. There are no medicines or therapies that can change this thing.” And so, when you have this, you really need to attack your other risk factors. And so, he and I, after much discussion and debate, decided to put me on a GLP-1, which I’ve been on for about six weeks now. So this has been a very – it was a really difficult decision. And, you know, this is something where I don’t feel that people have to justify these decisions to anyone. Megan Gill: Yeah. Alena Acker: But the reason that I wanna go through it or explain it is that maybe it’ll help somebody else. And I just feel like that’s a pretty hard left turn, right, to go from, “I’m great at any weight,” to “And now I’m taking this weight-loss drug.” Megan Gill: Yeah. Alena Acker: And I was just sort of like, “Oh, my god. Do I want to do this? Is this a betrayal now, then, of fat people that I love in my life, the women and people that I’m representing on screen?” it really felt like – I’m like I’ve just gotten to this place where I feel cool, and now I’m gonna change my body again? It was really tough. And it brings up all these things around, well, am I gonna book fewer roles because I’ve sort of experienced this career uptick at a higher weight, and is that gonna affect the way people cast me and the way people see me and all of the little, logistical – you know, I’m gonna need new headshots, and when am I gonna tell my reps. Megan Gill: All the things. Alena Acker: Even stuff as wild as I shot this pilot, a small role, a couple of scenes in a pilot back in October, and I don’t know if it’s gonna be picked up to series, and I don’t know if I will be invited back if it does get picked up to series, but I could, because my character is in the workplace of one of the main characters. And so, it’s this thing of, “What if they ask me back, and I look completely different, and then I lose the opportunity because of that?” I really was just sort of spiraling out about how much this is going to change, or could change things. But, ultimately, I just felt this is something I need to do for my health. It’s something where I want to be around for a long time, and I want to be able to tell these stories. And if my body becomes different, then it’s just, you know, a different body type that I’m representing. And I’ve always felt like sort of a weirdo and an oddball, and I still get to represent the weirdos and oddballs in the world at any weight. It’s been an interesting challenge because we think of loving ourself at any weight or any shape or any size as having more to do with if we get larger, if we get older, you know? But it’s like if you’re gonna do it, then you have to do it all the way, no matter what direction your body changes in. Megan Gill: Right. Which is hard work, regardless. Alena Acker: Yeah, it’s an interesting position that I find myself in. “As a young person, I really only focused on theater. I really only thought I could do theater because I just didn’t see hardly any women, especially with my body type, on screen. So I thought these were facts. I was like, “Oh, well, I can’t do film or TV because fat people can’t be on film or TV, so I’m gonna do theater!” And it didn’t even occur to me at that point that it was a possibility.” - Alena Acker Alena Acker is a New York-based actor who often plays characters that seem ordinary at first but are surprisingly complex once you dive deeper. She’s the shy nerd who stands up for herself, the wacky teacher who might actually teach you something, the pious innocent who’s anything but. TV credits include NBC’s Law and Order, HBO Max’s And Just Like That (The Sex and the City Reboot) and the upcoming FX Pilot Disinherited from Better Call Saul Showrunner Peter Gould. She has graced international stages performing in plays and musicals - favorite credits include The Off Broadway Revival of Tennessee Williams’ The Night of the Iguana at the Signature Theatre, starring Tim Daly, Daphne Rubin-Vega and Lea DeLaria, directed by Emily Mann; as well as Drama Desk nominated the Ryan Case 1973 and the role of Typhoid Mary in The Trial of Typhoid Mary with Live-In Theater. She also performed at the Gyeonggi English Village theme park in South Korea, delighting family audiences as a clumsy witch, a cheerful unicorn, a menacing pirate and everything in between. LA Comedy Festival, the NY Fringe Festival, UCB and the PIT audiences know her from Mother Eve’s Secret Garden of Sensual Sisterhood, a musical self-help satire in which she played Rhododendron, a timid woman with low self-esteem who gains confidence and learns to love herself–not without plenty of laughs along the way. Alena has performed her original character comedy with Characters Welcome, at The PIT and at Second City NYC and has appeared in numerous commercials for well-known brands. A graduate of the University of Michigan with a double major in Theatre and German Language and Literature, she spent her junior year abroad and speaks fluent German. Alena lives with her husband and cat Sophie and is a New York City triathlon finisher. Follow Alena on Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/miss_aleneous/?hl=en] Check out her IMdB [https://www.imdb.com/name/nm3954092/] Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments. * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations! While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Continued Conversations with Tatiana Pavela

Trigger Warning: in our conversation, we discuss ideas relating to diet culture and self-image. Please take care of yourselves as you listen, and please avoid if these topics might be triggering for you. Everyone please welcome Tatiana Pavela to A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations! Tatiana and I are a both a part of The Spark [https://actorsencouraged.com/join-the-spark] (Amy McNabb’s mindset-focused membership for ambitious, heart-centered actresses), and it’s fun because she’s a Chicago-based actress, theatre artist, and teaching artist (which is just fun for me because I adore Chicago so much and lived/worked there prior to moving to the beach). I was thrilled to sit down with Tatiana and discuss body image. When I read this quote on her website, “As a teaching artist, she has worked with students of all ages to guide actors to work through fear, take up space and do the ridiculous,” I knew I was in for a treat with this conversation. In our conversation, we discuss… * Working through fear as an actor * Getting comfortable with being profoundly uncomfortable * People telling us “no” fuels the fire * Her changing body leading to an autoimmune disorder * The realization that she doesn’t have as much control over her body as she once thought she did and coming to terms with that * The nuance of wanting to accept her body but also wanting it to change * Our bodies are designed to fail * Her fearlessness and vulnerability in showing the range of humanity onstage as an actor * The pressure we put on ourselves to be perfect as actors, but the reality being that these characters we’re playing are inherently imperfect beings (just like all of humanity) * We are taught to hate our bodies, and we are taught to not listen to our bodies and override them - how this led Tatiana to a post-sickness diagnosis of mono * Creating space to listen to your voice and hear your body * We discuss joy and the things we both find joyful in our day-to-day lives * We have a big chat about delicious food at the end, so grab your snacks ◡̈ I cannot even tell you how many little golden nuggets of wisdom are within this 54-minute conversation - I hope you enjoy this one. Tatiana is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to our bodies as actors, the patriarchy + our societal conditioning, and ultimately coming back to ourselves. She’s also absolutely hilarious and wonderful. I truly, truly cannot wait for you to hear our conversation! “I’m a fat actor. I would love to be thin. I have tried my entire life to be thin. Sometimes I have been thinner than others, but it’s just like it’s constantly something that I’m wrestling with. And I’ve always questioned, “If I wasn’t an actor, would I have this same relationship?” You know what I mean? And me and my actor friends, when they talk about their mom trying to lose weight or whatever, we’re like, “What does she care? She’s not an actor!” Like, “Live your fat life. Live your midsize life, and stop worrying about —,” you know what I mean? And so, it’s always like — this is so connected. I mean, I do think ultimately it’s like. every woman does feel this. It’s heightened for actors and people that are in front of other people.” - Tatiana Pavela Below is a text insert of our conversation that stuck with me, starting at just after the 22-minute mark: Tatiana Pavela: I mean, it feels like we’re sliding backwards now, to be honest. But the thing that I’ve been telling myself since – because even when I was “thinner,” I was still larger than everyone else around me. Do you know what I mean? It’s kind of a sign that’syou know, “Tatiana, to a certain extent, you’ve always been this.” But the thing that I would tell myself, and I still do tell myself, is my goal as an actor is to show the range of humanity as much as possible, and I can do that. You know, and it’s so – yeah, it’s like if I can be as fearless – let’s go back to fear, right? If I can be as fearless onstage, I can be as vulnerable, if I can be like, “Look at this. Look at this heartbreak, look at this. This happened on stage. Look at this, look at this, look at this,” you know? I just did a play, and my goal was how vulnerable can I be every night. Can I shed my skin so that they can see this journey? And it’s just like – yeah, that’s my goal. It’s a challenge to myself. It’s like, “I dare you. I dare you to work through your fear so that you can show more humanity to people.” Megan Gill: Yeah, because we need it now more than ever. Tatiana Pavela: Because we need it, and because it’s true. You know what I mean? I’m sure so many people have said this on your podcast, but it’s like we’re out here living our lives. I’m in love. I have a wonderful relationship. So many crazy things have happened to me, good and bad. Do you know what I mean? That it’s just like I’m not just here as, you know, young mom number one auditioning for a Triscuit commercial. Megan Gill: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, 100%. And that’s not to say that if you were in a smaller body, that it wouldn’t be “easier,” or that there wouldn’t be more bookability or more roles available, and I fucking hate that so goddamn much. Tatiana Pavela: Let it out. Let it out! Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s just – and I also just wanna say that too, because that’s also just a very real part of what’s wrong with the industry and what I would like to change about the industry, if I could. Yeah. Tatiana Pavela: I mean, it’s hard. It does feel we’re sliding backwards, you know what I mean, in terms of plus-size clothing availability – Megan Gill: Yes. Tatiana Pavela: – in stores. I remember when Athleta started offering their plus-size in store, and it was so awesome. I was like, “I’ll give you all my money.” Do you know what I mean? Like this is amazing. This is great. And then when they recently pulled that back, I was like oh man, do you know what I mean? It just happens over and over again where lines are closing or it’s not offered in store. It just feels like a lot of this is moving backwards. Megan Gill: Yeah. Tatiana Pavela: And so, how’s your body image now Tatiana? Well, it was better a few years ago. Megan Gill: Right, right. Tatiana Pavela: It was better two years ago. But I mean… and then the thing that I can just tell myself is – and it sounds so pretentious to be like, “Oh, I’m gonna be an example to people,” but is that it’s just like, look, I love when I’ve seen fat women onstage, you know what I mean, especially as love interests where it had nothing to do with fat. Megan Gill: Yep. Tatiana Pavela: I was just like, just be that example for someone else, you know? And my students, who are adults, there’s so much fear in them, and there’s so much think-we-need-to-be-perfect before we do the thing. And I’m like no one’s perfect. You kind of have to be strong and wrong. How I’ve learned anything in this industry is by doing it wrong and having someone tell me the right way to do it, or, “Don’t do it that way. Do it like this,” you know? And it’s like… one of my students was talking about their need for perfectionism, and I was thinking about it on my walk home after class where I was like how interesting, how unfortunate, how bizarre, how weird, how whatever that we think, as artists, we need to be perfect, but the thing that we are trying to represent is imperfect, always. Humanity is always imperfect, and that’s what makes it interesting. And those are the stories that we want to watch, and yet, we think we need to be perfect in order to represent that. Megan Gill: Yeah. Tatiana Pavela: Why? Megan Gill: Seriously why. Make it make it make sense! And we think that our bodies need to be this image of perfection or acceptable in order to tell these stories. For me, a big thing now that I’m in my early thirties, approaching my mid-thirties is I have never had Botox, and I am now seeing my deeper lines. I just got headshots done, and I’m like, “No, bitch. You are not doing that.” And you know what? If people, if actors want to, more power to you. Do what works for you. For me, kind of like you were saying, I’m challenging myself to not because I want to be that face that looks the age that I am, and I wanna tell those stories with this face and with this body, and it is so damn hard. But it’s like we also need that. Sure, we need the 35-year-old women with Botox. Yes, that’s needed too. But also, my forehead wrinkles and my smile lines are also needed. They’re both needed. Tatiana Pavela: Have you seen “The Beat In Me” with Claire Danes? Megan Gill: Yes. Yes. Wait, with the – she’s the writer, she’s the writer. Tatiana Pavela: She’s the writer. So I say this completely neutral. You see her, and she looks older, right? I’ve been watching her since “My So-Called Life” days. When I saw her face, when I first started watching that series, I breathed a sigh of motherfucking relief I didn’t realize I was holding. I was like, “Oh, my god.” Megan Gill: Yeah, it’s beautiful. Tatiana Pavela: It was like – because you could see everything on her face. You could see every emotion, everything she’s holding, everything she’s thinking. I mean, truly, truly phenomenal. And the thing that I love about her and Matthew Rhys in the show is you never know what they’re gonna do, and when they do it, it’s always the more psychopathic choice. You’re just like, “Oh, my god!” Megan Gill: It really is such a good show. Tatiana Pavela: It’s incredible. Megan Gill: It took me a second to piece together… Tatiana Pavela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s so much out there right now that it’s like, “Wait, did I watch that? I don’t know, maybe?” Megan Gill: “I know I’ve seen it! I know I’ve seen Claire Danes in a series recently, but I need to visualize it for one second, yep.” Yeah, you’re so right. Tatiana Pavela: When I saw her, it was a sigh of relief, and it was like, “Oh my god, this is incredible.” And I mean, at the end of the day too, it’s like, look, yeah, do whatever you want to do. Do you know what I mean? I have so many friends, more people than I know are probably on Botox, you know what I mean? It’s like everybody’s doing it, but I just am so profoundly upset at the money that women are expected to spend on their looks, and it does not matter for men. Megan Gill: Yep. Tatiana Pavela: It pisses me off – Megan Gill: Same. Tatiana Pavela: – so much because it is a – this myth of beauty, right, is a tool for oppression to keep our money away from us and to keep our time away from us and to keep our energy away from us, so that we are focused on something else that is always unattainable, always changing, always out of reach, so that we are easier to control. And it always comes down to that. And I think – I’m like, listen, I would love a facelift. I’m in my forties, over here. I was like, “Just get that off.” I would love that, but at the end of the day, I’m like, “Resist the patriarchy. Resist the patriarchy.” Megan Gill: Yeah. Tatiana Pavela: And so, I remember when I first started going to therapy years ago, when all this started happening with my body and changing or whatever, and my therapist was like, “Who taught you to hate yourself?” And I was like, “What do you mean? What a stupid question! What do you mean? We all hate ourselves! We’re all taught that. All women are taught that.” Megan Gill: Literally. Tatiana Pavela: Every magazine, every book. Why are you asking me like it’s coming from a little secret, little source, you know what I mean? Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like I can pinpoint one thing? It’s like, “It’s everything!” Tatiana Pavela: It’s like literally everything. Megan Gill: “It’s my mom, even though she really didn’t mean to,” you know? Yeah. Yeah. Tatiana Pavela: I know. It’s wild. It’s wild. It’s like, “Who taught you to hate yourself?” “Who taught me to love myself?” Megan Gill: God, right. Where’s that? Where’s that at? Tatiana Pavela: Yeah. Like… Megan Gill: Certainly not in my college theater program. Whoops, I said it. Tatiana Pavela: Name names. Name names! I mean, it’s so hard. It’s so hard in this industry. The other thing that I come back to is that there’s no guarantee for a career. So whatever you look like, it still always – it might never happen to you. You may never get your big break. Nothing is guaranteed, and no one has the same path as anyone else. And so, you kind of can’t say, “If this happened, what –,” do you know what I mean? Because the times in my life where I felt like, “Okay, I’m gonna do this or get this role, whatever, and this is gonna be a stepping stone to someone else,” it’s like no. It wasn’t. Megan Gill: Yeah, yeah. Yeah! Tatiana Pavela: You’re back at square one. Megan Gill: Right, right. Totally. We might as well live as peacefully as we can and as free as we can in these bodies that we have and that do incredible things for us and allow us to do the incredible work that we do, and just try going back to that acceptance piece of what you were touching on earlier when you said, “Either I can have that unattainable thing and try to fight to work towards that unattainable thing that society tells me I need to be for my whole life, or I can just say, fuck it. This is me. I feel good,” for the most part. We don’t always feel good. Tatiana Pavela: Yeah. Megan Gill: “I know how to take care of my body. I know how to nourish my body. I know how to experience joy in my body and just feel a little bit more mentally free,” and I feel like that’s almost the win. Tatiana Pavela: Experiencing joy in your body is the win because we are taught to ignore our bodies. We’re taught to override. We’re taught to keep going. We’re taught to push, push, push, push, push, and not be in tune with what we feel at all, wou know what I mean? Especially when you’re in a rigorous kind of training program as artists or whatever, right? It’s like, “Keep going, keep going, keep going,” you know? And, okay, so this is wild. This is something that kind of stopped me in my tracks that no one will probably think is wild except for me. Megan Gill: I can’t wait to hear. Tatiana Pavela: When I was getting all of this stuff figured out, right, it was a couple of years after grad school, and my third doctor at this point was doing all these tests and everything, and she was like, “Oh yeah, so when did you have mono?” And I was like, “I never had mono.” And she was like, “No, you definitely had mono. It’s in your blood,” or something had come up, right? And I was like, “I never had mono.” And she was like, “Well, you had mono.” Yeah. So I’m like, “Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. So this mono – I think about this thing that lays people down for a month – you are too tired to get out of bed or whatever – I probably had it in grad school or the years after. And I remember the days when I was so tired. I remember every day I spent more money on coffee than food. Do you know what I mean? It’s just like I was so tired, and I just overrode that. I did not miss one day, one class in three years, one rehearsal, nothing. And I’m just like that was applauded. This thing of – I was like, “Damn, that’s powerful.” And then I’m like, “No, no, no. That’s overpowering. That is not powerful. That is you being so, so not able to listen to your body that you have no idea what’s up.” “I just am so profoundly upset at the money that women are expected to spend on their looks, and it does not matter for men. It pisses me off so much because it is a – this myth of beauty, right, is a tool for oppression to keep our money away from us and to keep our time away from us and to keep our energy away from us, so that we are focused on something else that is always unattainable, always changing, always out of reach, so that we are easier to control. And it always comes down to that. And I think – I’m like, listen, I would love a facelift. I’m in my forties, over here. I was like, “Just get that off.” I would love that, but at the end of the day, I’m like, “Resist the patriarchy. Resist the patriarchy.” -Tatiana Pavela Tatiana Pavela is a Chicago-based actress and theatre artist who gravitates towards experimental theatre, devised work and heightened language. As a teaching artist and private coach, she loves working with actors of all levels to work through fear, take up space and do the ridiculous. She has worked in various theaters across the US and internationally, but holds a special place in her heart for her solo show Brandi Alexander (Week 1 Critic’s Pick from The List, Edinburgh Festival Fringe; Artist Trust Award - Seattle, WA). Happiest in the water or in a rehearsal room. Visit Tatiana’s Website [http://tatianapavela.com] Follow Tatiana on IG [https://www.instagram.com/tatianapavela/] Subscribe to the A Broadway Body: Continued Conversations newsletter + sign up for a paid plan to support me in creating more of this content for you ❤️‍🔥 A couple of notes to ensure this is a safe space for my guests to share their intimate and vulnerable body image stories in: * It can be easy to feel alone on your journey of existing in a body. I welcome the connection and support of one another in this space through considerate and curious comments. * These conversations are quite nuanced, complex, and oftentimes very vulnerable. Remember that everyone has their own body image story, and while someone else’s might look differently than yours, I encourage you to keep an open mind and stay empathetic. * Thank you for being here. By sharing this type of content, my hope is to inspire personal reflection and cultural questioning. Thank you and supporting me in exploring the effects of our culture’s beauty norms and body standards on human beings existing in today’s world. Do you have a friend, family member or peer who might love this too? I’d be honored if you could help me spread the word about my writing and body image conversations! While I’m not a licensed therapist, registered dietician, or medical health professional and cannot speak to body image topics from a clinical, trauma-informed place, I am an expert of lived experience. I’m an academic of my own body, and I’m passionate about facilitating conversations with other humans about their relationships with their bodies. I believe it’s important to continue conversations about healthy body image in creative spaces as a means to heal individuals as well as the collective whole. But just know the information presented in this medium is not professional mental health advice or medical advice, and any questions or concerns you have should always be directed to your health providers. Get full access to Continued Conversations with Megan Gill at www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe [https://www.continuedconvos.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]