The American Reformer Podcast

Ordered to Love (ft. Alex Kocman)

What does it really mean to obey Christ’s command to love—family, church, nation, and the nations—in the right order? In this episode of the American Reformer Podcast, Timon Cline sits down with Alex Kocman, author of Ordered to Love, to unpack the Ordo Amoris, Protestant political theology, missions, and patriotism.   Alex Kocman is a Christian writer, podcaster, and church leader. He serves as Director of Communications and Engagement for ABWE and co-hosts The Missions Show and The World View podcasts. He is the author of the brand new book, Ordered to Love. https://press.founders.org/shop/ordered-to-love/ [https://press.founders.org/shop/ordered-to-love/]   Learn more about Alex Kocman's work: https://alexkocman.com/about/ [https://alexkocman.com/about/]   Why Ordered to Love had to be written: https://alexkocman.com/2026/01/16/why-ordered-to-love-needed-to-be-written/ [https://alexkocman.com/2026/01/16/why-ordered-to-love-needed-to-be-written/]   Timestamps: 0:00 – Intro & Welcome to American Reformer Podcast 0:37 – Who Is Alex Kocman? Missions, Media, and Theology 4:02 – Why Ordered to Love? The Flashpoints Behind the Book 10:25 – Universalism vs. Parochialism in the Church 16:53 – Do Christians Have a Duty to Love Their Own Nation? 24:25 – Nations in Scripture: From Abraham to Revelation 34:17 – How Grace Restores Nature 40:32 – What Is a Nation? Beyond ‘Propositional’ America 48:39 – Evangelical Guilt, Vocation, and ‘Real’ Ministry 58:04 – Final Exhortation: Missionaries, Activists, and the Order of Love   ––––––   Follow American Reformer across Social Media: X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer [https://www.twitter.com/amreformer] Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/ [https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/] YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer [https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer] Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer [https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer] Website – https://americanreformer.org/ [https://americanreformer.org/]   Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer: https://americanreformer.org/donate/ [https://americanreformer.org/donate/]   Follow Us on Twitter: Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness [https://twitter.com/Byzness] Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline [https://twitter.com/tlloydcline]   The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings [https://jaredcummingsllc.com].   Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer" Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/ [https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/] Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347] Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5 [https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5]

Ministry to State (ft. George Sayour)

How can ministers of the gospel impact the state house? George Sayour of the PCA's Ministry to State in Tallahassee joins the show to discuss.    George Sayour, Senior Pastor at Meadowview Reformed Presbyterian Church since 2019, transitioned from a career in engineering to education and administration. He holds a Master of Divinity from Knox Theological Seminary and is involved in various ministries, including Ministry to State (MTS) which he joined in March 2025. Now in Tallahassee, George ministers to elected representatives as the State Capitol Minister for Florida.   Learn more about George Sayour's work: https://meadowviewpca.org/profiles/george-sayour/ [https://meadowviewpca.org/profiles/george-sayour/] https://www.ministrytostate.org/post/george-sayour-joins-mts-as-state-capitol-minister-for-north-carolina [https://www.ministrytostate.org/post/george-sayour-joins-mts-as-state-capitol-minister-for-north-carolina]   ––––––   Follow American Reformer across Social Media: X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer [https://www.twitter.com/amreformer] Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/ [https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/] YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer [https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer] Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer [https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer] Website – https://americanreformer.org/ [https://americanreformer.org/]   Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer: https://americanreformer.org/donate/ [https://americanreformer.org/donate/]   Follow Us on Twitter: Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness [https://twitter.com/Byzness] Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline [https://twitter.com/tlloydcline]   The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings [https://jaredcummingsllc.com].   Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer" Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/ [https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/] Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347] Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5 [https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5]

The Art of the Chimp (ft. Auron MacIntyre)

Auron MacIntyre joins the show to talk about intramural conflicts in the MAGA coalition.    Auron MacIntyre is the host of “The Auron MacIntyre Show” and a columnist for Blaze News. He offers thought-provoking and mold-breaking insights, drawing from the best political thinkers throughout history to make sense of our current political climate in a way that is easy to digest. He is Author of The Total State: How Liberal Democracies Become Tyrannies.   Learn more about Auron MacIntyre's work: https://www.theblaze.com/u/auronmacintyre [https://www.theblaze.com/u/auronmacintyre] https://twitter.com/AuronMacintyre [https://twitter.com/AuronMacintyre] https://www.regnery.com/9781684515585/the-total-state/ [https://www.regnery.com/9781684515585/the-total-state/]   ––––––   Follow American Reformer across Social Media: X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer [https://www.twitter.com/amreformer] Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/ [https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/] YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer [https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer] Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer [https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer] Website – https://americanreformer.org/ [https://americanreformer.org/]   Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer: https://americanreformer.org/donate/ [https://americanreformer.org/donate/]   Follow Us on Twitter: Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness [https://twitter.com/Byzness] Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline [https://twitter.com/tlloydcline]   The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings [https://jaredcummingsllc.com].   Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer" Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/ [https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/] Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347] Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5 [https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5]

Protestant Apologetics (ft. Austin Suggs)

How do Protestants compete in the online apologetics space? Austin Suggs joins the show to provide some insight.    Austin Suggs is the founder of Gospel Simplicity, an online apologetics platform that dives deep on theological issues. Austin is a non-denominational Protestant and theology graduate from Moody Bible Institute.   Learn more about Austin Suggs' work: https://www.gospelsimplicity.com/about [https://www.gospelsimplicity.com/about] https://www.youtube.com/gospelsimplicity [https://www.youtube.com/gospelsimplicity] https://austinsuggs.substack.com/ [https://austinsuggs.substack.com/]   ––––––   Follow American Reformer across Social Media: X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer [https://www.twitter.com/amreformer] Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/ [https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/] YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer [https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer] Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer [https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer] Website – https://americanreformer.org/ [https://americanreformer.org/]   Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer: https://americanreformer.org/donate/ [https://americanreformer.org/donate/]   Follow Us on Twitter: Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness [https://twitter.com/Byzness] Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline [https://twitter.com/tlloydcline]   The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings [https://jaredcummingsllc.com].   Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer" Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/ [https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/] Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347] Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5 [https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5]

Plan Trusting (ft. Patrick Casey)

Patrick Casey talks to Timon about how to maintain focus in the MAGA coalition.    Patrick Casey is an American writer, podcaster, and political commentator based in Washington, D.C. He is the host of the podcast Restoring Order, where he discusses topics such as politics, social science, longevity, gene editing, and credentialism, often from a moderate paleoconservative perspective. Casey contributes written work to publications including Chronicles Magazine, The Federalist, The Blaze, and American Conservative.   Show Notes: Restoring Order | Patrick Casey | Substack [https://www.patrickcasey.com/] Restoring Order | Podcast on Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/4SaMqCPauQJeG3YJMuVoCT]   ––––––   Follow American Reformer across Social Media: X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer [https://www.twitter.com/amreformer] Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/ [https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/] YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer [https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer] Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer [https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer] Website – https://americanreformer.org/ [https://americanreformer.org/]   Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer: https://americanreformer.org/donate/ [https://americanreformer.org/donate/]   Follow Us on Twitter: Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness [https://twitter.com/Byzness] Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline [https://twitter.com/tlloydcline]   The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings [https://jaredcummingsllc.com].   Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer" Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/ [https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/] Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347 [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347] Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5 [https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5]