Returning to a Jesus centered Christianity: Jake Doberenz EP 225
In this new episode, host Diana welcomes back guest Jake Doberenz, who shares updates on his life since his last appearance in Season 2. They discuss Jake's new podcast 'Christianity Without Compromise,' his new Substack, and his middle-grade book series 'Super Jake.' The conversation delves into Jake's personal challenges, including a difficult divorce and the loss of his father, and how his faith journey and mental health were affected. They also cover topics such as Christian nationalism, tribalism, and the importance of returning to a Jesus-centered Christianity. Jake emphasizes the value of listening and learning from diverse perspectives as a path to spiritual and personal growth.
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message
00:47 Welcome to the Podcast
01:28 Introducing Jake Dorin
01:50 Jake's New Ventures
02:51 Technical Difficulties and Housekeeping
03:33 Jake's Return to the Show
04:13 Jake's Journey and Challenges
13:45 Support Systems and Church Reactions
20:16 Jake's Writing Journey
26:21 Introduction to the Podcast's Mission
26:41 Focusing on Jesus-Centered Christianity
27:50 Challenges and Pushback
28:45 The Call to Smash Idols
29:38 Diverse Conversations and Controversial Topics
31:34 Personal Growth and Education
39:01 Christian Nationalism and Its Dangers
45:04 Reflecting on History and Moving Forward
48:07 Final Thoughts and Advice
50:36 Conclusion and Farewell
Jakedoberenz.com for all things Jake!
I am a writer, speaker, minister, coach, and creative thinker living in Oklahoma City, OK. I have earned my Master of Theological Studies at Oklahoma Christian University, the same place I earned my Bachelor’s degree in Bible with a minor in Communication Studies.
I write fiction and nonfiction in a variety of mediums, including poetry, short stories, books, stage plays, academic essays, and devotionals. I also venture out into other mediums, like podcasts and video. My favorite topics of choice to discuss and write about (though always changing) include: Christian writing, helping people understand the Bible better, Christian identity, theology of technology and social media, use of humor in faith messages, how to get young people back in church, and a Christian response to culture.
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Jake Doberenz
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Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help.
Now here is Diana.
Hello everyone. How are you guys today? This is one of our new episodes. We have Jake Dorin back on the show. He was on season two and I did rebroadcast, the first interview that I had with him. So please go back and listen to that. It is fantastic and there's a lot of new things going on with Jake.
He has a new podcast, which is called Christianity Without Compromise. He also has a new substack, [00:02:00] that is fabulous. He is written a book, super Jake and a second book. Super Jake and Cool Kenny. So that's a fictional book.
Got remarried recently and there's a lot of here to talk about
that is very timely for today. I just love his podcast. It is really great. He talks about, current topics that affect the church. And so I'm not gonna do too much intro because, like I said, you can listen to the original podcast interview from, last time.
I've got lots of questions for him. I don't really have a script today. I'm just gonna go with the flow as to, what he wants to talk about. Um, a couple housekeeping things. I had some computer problems, some internet problems, and so I [00:03:00] was this afternoon switching out my computer in my studio with my laptop, so I didn't have to do the podcast on my cell phone.
Um, this camera isn't as wonderful as my other one, and the sound isn't as wonderful, but I'm gonna try and fix the sound part post-production. But this is gonna be a fantastic show, perfect for the new year. So I hope that you will enjoy my second conversation with Jake Doberenz.
Alright, welcome back to the show from season two. Jake, do thanks for coming on the show again. Of course, of course. I'm glad you'll have me all these seasons later. That's, that's really fun. It's cool. Yeah. There's a lot of things that have happened since, you were on the show, so I was glad that you were looking to be a [00:04:00] guest again, and, definitely wanted you to come back and share what you've been up to since then, some exciting things, and then some contemplative things that you've experienced.
So remind the folks , what you're all about. Oh, what I'm all about. I mean, the formats change, but I've always just been trying to communicate Christian truth to people, you know, through podcasts, through books, through plays, like whatever the, the medium changes all the time.
I just think Jesus is pretty cool and I want people to know him better and, um, I want people to know the real Jesus and not, there's a bunch of posers running around. Don't know if you knew that, but I want people to encounter the real thing. So, I mean, that's who, that's what I'm all about.
Since the last time we've talked, I've probably started and also abandoned like a hundred projects, you know, that's just my nature. Fortunately, and [00:05:00] unfortunately, well, I was a big fan of your creatively Christian mm-hmm. Podcast. I was a guest on there with Andrea.
Yeah. And I really enjoyed that being a musician and everything, and a creative myself. I understand that you're not doing that anymore, right? Yeah. That one's not, active anymore. I handed that off to Brandon. Brandon was one of our anchor hosts there on the show. He still posts about the show sometimes, and, uh, he has all the rights and access to the material.
And so episodes still get shared and still get listens to. I think stopped, early, like 23, or 24, man, I don't know. The years have blurred together. But I still get notifications of people wanting to be guests on that show or, you know, some, something like good pods will say, Hey, this is ranked in the top for Christian, you know, arts and stuff.
I'm like, whoa, it's crazy. So it [00:06:00] still gets traction even though we're not actively publishing, which is definitely fun. Wow. And you. Have this new podcast, Christianity Without Compromise, which I am like fan number two. Jake, I just absolutely love this podcast, I know you had it branded as Smashing Idols, which actually liked that title.
Oh. Or did you decide to change it? Well, I decided to change it because it's a cool title, but I would tell that to people and they'd be like, I, what is that? Huh? What's going on here? Um, and so I wanted a fit of a couple keywords in there. I wanted to be very clear. It was about Christianity and Christian stuff.
So a little bit to get found better. I mean, that was a lot of it. Mm-hmm. It get understood a little bit better. Um, but we're still this pretty much the same mission. We're smashing the idols. We're trying to bring the church back to kind of a faithful Christian witness. Right. And that means, hey, there are some idols in the [00:07:00] way.
We're just gonna, move them and sometimes get a hammer out and start smashing 'em. 'cause we gotta get those out of the way to get back to the real deal. I totally agree. Yeah. When you are on here in season two. You went through some really difficult times of your life and I wanted to have you share with our audience, what you've learned in, those tough times and what was your relationship with the Lord and how he helped you through that.
Whatever you're comfortable sharing with us. Yeah, I mean, since then I've had my job more than a year, uh, my job, period of life, right? But before we catch everybody up, I want people to understand, like, I had a relatively more or less comfortable life.
I grew up in the church. My, my parents stayed together. It wasn't perfect, but they stayed together and didn't really have anybody like die or leave in my [00:08:00] world. Like it wasn't bad. And then I grow up and become an adult human person. I graduate college and then it was a little bit downhill from there.
I think we're on the Upward Hill part, but it went downhill from there. So, after college, I got married to somebody who I loved and thought loved me, and things were pretty good. Um, until a time where she just decided, I don't want to invest in this relationship anymore.
I don't wanna do this thing anymore. And there were a variety of reasons for that, that I won't get into. That's something that she decided, but. Did the whole marriage counseling thing. And ultimately it comes to a point in counseling like that where there's a decision. We've spent six weeks or whatever picking apart all the problems.
Now are you gonna change? Are we gonna do something about [00:09:00] it? Are we gonna fix it? And her answer was, I'm good. I don't think so. See you later. Um, and so that was a difficult year. It ended up being about a year from there, so the actual divorce papers were signed. And that was not a fun time in my life.
For sure, obviously for people that have gone through any kind of broken relationships like that. Just not good. I struggled a lot, you know, you mentioned the faith journey kind of thing. Like I believed. God wanted to save my marriage. I did pretty much everything I could as a human being to save that.
I did. I read all the books. I, I literally read maybe 30 marriage books. I, did counseling, you know, individual therapy, virtual therapy I talked to experts in saving marriages and marriages and crisis. I spent a good chunk of money, as kind of this [00:10:00] last ditch effort going to this conference that we both attended virtually that was supposed to kind of help get us talking and heal some things.
None of that worked. And that was really challenging because I said, well, doesn't God want marriages to stay together? Isn't that what God's all about? Like, that would be God's preference, surely. Right? Um. God doesn't override free will, very often. And so that's what happened.
Like people made choices and it was a eye-opening time of, like other people in the world can just make whatever choices they want and sometimes you cannot control them, right? You, you, you can't, you don't have a say. And we have to just deal with that. We have to accept that to some extent. You know, I am proud of the progress that I made and the things I did to better myself.
And so I can sleep easy, so to speak, knowing that like I did my part. But. [00:11:00] There was no happy ending to that necessarily. And then pretty much shortly after that, my dad died unexpectedly. And so again, it was this, this job thing, right? It just like one after another. And, things kind of fell apart.
Uh, and losing a marriage, losing a father, they for better or for worse put, put things in perspective. And so while those weren't, um, good things, like I can't call them objectively good, there was good that came out of that, I became a better. A better person. I'm just full stop. I like to think I'm a better person than I was last time I was on the show here.
I am absolutely healthier spiritually, mentally, and all the ways, like I did the work in myself. It doesn't mean I'm a perfect human being, you know, still a process, but I am at a better [00:12:00] point. And, I'm remarried now. I found somebody who really likes me and she's not going anywhere. And, we put in the work together and doesn't mean things are perfect, but, we both recognize that,
that we are imperfect and we're just gonna do our best each day. And if there's a problem, we're gonna address it and not hide it for, you know, three years kind of thing. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's good. So that's been the journey, right? Literally the darkest times. I mean there was a brief moment in that darkness that the holiday after my dad died and I had gotten divorced and my dad died in the same year, I felt for the first time, like thoughts of ending it all.
And those were fleeting. I didn't think that very often, but it was just like too much. But I crawled, my way out of the darkness, [00:13:00] and things. Better on the other side. Uh, so that's my story and I'm, uh, I'm sticking to it.
Oh, well thank you for being so transparent.
And it's not easy to say those hard times. And, I think that a lot of people listening can relate to what you just said and have been through divorce and no matter who's ended the relationship, it was mm-hmm. Ending for a reason and they question God's will. Yeah. And whether God's mad at them or the church is not supportive of them.
Yeah, that was one of my questions. How did your church, respond to the divorce? Did you felt like you were cared for, or did you feel judged in any way? Or what was that like? Well, I'm gonna make a generalization [00:14:00] here, that I've noted before. my more conservative Christian Church friends didn't ever want to talk about it.
They weren't gonna bring it up. They we're gonna say anything. I'm like, surely, you know, you've heard through the grapevine, you saw something, you realized who's missing in the picture. Like, you know, but they wouldn't bring it up. Uncomfortable, wouldn't talk about it. Now my more, what I'll call progressive Christian friends.
They were talking about, oh, come on. You know, Jake, it's fine. Like second marriages are better. Who cares about her? Move on, man. Life can be so much great on the other side, which I mean, I get what they were trying to do, but that's not what I want to hear either. And then weirdly, um, some of my atheist friends, like coworkers and things of that nature, they were just like, man, that sucks.
Like, that's tough. That's [00:15:00] terrible. And so I got a lot of my actual support from the atheists. And again, generalizations here. Like there were Christians that were g like, yeah. But um, a lot of people in the church just didn't wanna have that conversation or if they were gonna have that conversation. They wanted to go too much into the, rainbows and sunshine on the other side.
But that's not what I wanted to hear. Mm-hmm. A lot of people thought I was crazy for trying to save my marriage for hoping, for wanting, everybody can make their own different choices there in relationships that are in crisis. In that point. For me, I stuck it out, basically until my dad died, where that was like in a weird way, kind of just a, a way for me to move on and say, I'm gonna focus.
Like when, [00:16:00] when your life can literally just be cut short, I need to move on. I'm going to go. A new direction kind of thing. But yeah, people were strange. People acted, strangely. So I don't think I was judged or condemned. Not to my face. Nothing that I ever heard. The only thing that was judged weirdly was me, sticking it out.
Mm-hmm. Trying to save that marriage. Some people did not like that, including some close friends got mad at me because they're like, well, how dare you? She doesn't want it. How dare you try to pursue, try to make this better? And that's a tough one. I mean, I think it's a little harsh and crazy to be mad at me for wanting to fix it.
Yeah. And again, it comes down to yeah, you need two people. So if the two people aren't on board here. Well that can't be saved. And that's how it ended up happening.
Well, I went through my own divorce, as you know, and Uhhuh I [00:17:00] on my second marriage and they church crucified me. Wow. I mean it was, very negative and very judgmental. And I did try to save the marriage. I dragged him to three different marriage counselors and Yeah, of course. Suffered a lot of abuse for 13 years and he didn't wanna save the marriage when we were together. And, I'm not gonna force somebody. For somebody to change or to repent, you can't, it's like, well you, yeah. And I'm sorry that the church didn't support me and the church decided, they were going to make me either go back to my husband or, I couldn't be part of the church anymore.
It's like, no, not going. Yeah, that's insane. I'm not going back, I'm not going back to an unrepentant, husband. Mm-hmm. I'm glad that you had a good experience. Although a little strange, but you didn't seem to be ostracized or [00:18:00] gossiped about? Not to my face. I mean, yeah.
Not to your face, you know, they can, I guess see what they want, but. Well, I was doing some preaching at some churches and like doing stuff like that and, I was afraid that I was gonna lose those positions. I didn't, and maybe this is a gender thing that comes into play here, but it was like, well, she decided to leave, so you're fine, you're off the hook or something like that.
Some people wanted to know whose fault was it? And I'm like, well, I wasn't perfect here. There was reasons she wanted out, but at the end of the day, she was the one wanting out. So I, and this doesn't make it better or more comfortable, but I feel like there were some people in the church that were like, well, as long as it's her fault, as long as it's something.
But, I don't know. I still struggled with all the. Biblical stuff myself, I gave myself enough guilt. They were quote [00:19:00] bible verses at me, right and left. Ugh. And you know, I couldn't, that's tough. Quote, goodness, couldn't get married again, blah, blah, blah.
Right. You know, all the verses and, a lot of my listeners have gone through that, the same kind of negative, judgmental stuff. But glad you came out on the other side with the, um, would you call it depression when your dad died, when you momentarily wanted to Yeah. End it all.
Yeah. I was briefly on antidepressants. I needed medical intervention to get out of that, as well as other coping skills and things of that nature. So, yeah. And there's no shame in that, which. A lot of people in my mending the soul groups and those that are listening here, they were shamed for going and getting some mental health, help, stating that you only need the Bible and you just need to pray more, and you don't need any of that other stuff to, get over depression.
And that [00:20:00] is really so wrong, you know? Yeah. Yeah. We do need medication sometimes. Maybe not forever, but there is no sin in getting medical help. Amen. Absolutely. Well, we'll probably get onto a lighter topic here. You, uh, wrote. Were they young adult books?
The Super Jake series? They're middle grade. So your 9, 10, 11, 12 year olds. That's who it's for. That's a fun age. I remember being that in that group and I did a lot of reading. Oh, me too. At Wish they had Super Jake and Cool Kenny. Yeah. When I was that age.
Now just to be honest, I haven't read those books, but could you, tell the folks about your book? You're a natural writer. Is that one of your strengths or did you develop that? Fifth grade, I'm writing stories and things like that. I fell in love with the craft of storytelling, of writing.
And so I'm better than I was at writing than I was in fifth [00:21:00] grade. So like, I have improved for sure. Well, when it comes to things I gotta do before I die, like this is, was one of those projects, because I had created this alter ego character, super Jake. Created him in third grade originally and started telling stories in fifth grade.
It was my first creative work, right? The reason, you know, leads to creatively Christian, all the other creative endeavors that I would go to. This was my first like, love of storytelling all came from Super Jake, who was a alter ego version of myself, who was a superhero who could shoot ice cream out of his hands, because of course, that's the power when you're.
You know, a 10-year-old. Shoots ice cream outta his hands. Um, and so over the years, like I, I struggled with how to tell the story or if to tell the story. I had this weird period of life where I was like, everything I have to do is Christian. So I can't tell that story because it's not [00:22:00] quote unquote Christian.
There's no come to Jesus moment at the end, or he's not converting the atheist. And I said, well, you know, what I'm actually doing with these stories. What actually happened was the bad guys are elements of culture, of toxic culture. In the first book, you know, it's the bad guy at the fashion police.
And, he's trying to tell everybody to be cool. You gotta dress this way, that's what you gotta do. And then, super Jake combats that with ice cream, with quips and jokes and words and, you know, and so there is no, come to Jesus moment, but. I am still trying to train specifically young boys, but any young reader who might take a look, I'm trying to train them into a better way of viewing things.
The second one deals with toxic masculinity. Like the bad guy is all about, you know, men gotta lift weights and we gotta be all tough and, disrespect women and stuff like that. And so, I tackled [00:23:00] those cultural items. Oh, I wish I had super Jake when I was in grade school.
'cause Yeah. Um, I wasn't very popular because I didn't wear the designer clothes. I had the no name brands and I got picked on and bullied. And I wish I had super Jake to come to the rescue for me. Exactly. I know we all do. What could cool Kenny do? That was, his brother? Yeah.
Right? The brother. Yeah. My brother, weirdly, coincidentally, happens to be named Kenny as well. Just real crazy coincidence. But, he has the, what's called prehensile hair so his hair can like grow and grab stuff and move around and things like that. So just wild, crazy powers. And, the book series makes fun of that.
Like they're very self-aware that these are kind of weird powers. Maybe not the best crime fighting powers that you could ever think of, but that's the humor of it. And then you gotta be very creative. It's hard for me to be creative enough to be like, [00:24:00] okay, shooting scoops of ice cream in his hands.
How could that actually save the day? So it's a good challenge for me. And you'll have to read the books to find out what happens. You'll have to read the books. Yep. I gotta get to, to finishing that series. I've been slacking, but there's a couple books out already. Yeah. And so you guys can definitely find those on, right?
Amazon? Yeah. All the places Amazon, well, the listeners get good books for kids to read that are clean and have some messages and some fun at the same time. Yeah.
We do have your substack that you, said is not new. I have very few people that I subscribe to on Substack because I love to read, but I have only, you know, that's right. I, not enough hours in the day to read everything. You should see my stack of books on my nightstand.
Yeah. But you have a fantastic substack that I subscribe to and it goes great with your podcast and your [00:25:00] writing. In college, I minored in communication studies.
'cause I was very interested not just in the knowledge, but how do we communicate this, how do I get this across effectively? So I try to use that in my writing and my podcast. You, whatever I'm doing, I'm, I want you to understand the message the best. So I'm very picky about what words I use and when I do line breaks in spaces anyway, that's just stuff I nerd out about.
I like to write, but I'm not that good at it, but I have to really, really work at it.
I'm sure in your MDiv you're gonna be writing some stuff, so I've already been warned about that. You're gonna be writing a lot. Oh, you're gonna write some stuff? Yeah, it'll be great. Yeah. Spell check. I'm a good speller, and good at grammar and stuff. I have it in my head what I wanna say, but it never comes out the way I want it to come out.
I gotcha. Do you have that struggle? Probably not. I do sometimes. That's why I just throw it out there and I rearrange later.
Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely recommend, if you're not on substack, there's some really [00:26:00] great writers on there and people like Jake that, care about Jesus.
So we did, mention your podcast. I really wanna talk about your amazing, amazing guests. You really knock it out of the park like every time.
I think there's only one guest that I didn't agree with . Okay. I just turned it off 'cause I did not agree with what they were saying. But you have some amazing topics and I love that it's, a podcast for Christians weary of shallow faith in culture, war, religion. Oh my goodness. That is so perfectly worded. And bring us back to Jesus centered Christianity. I absolutely love that. Because it is about Jesus. It's not all this other junk around it. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That we call Christianity, it's churchianity. [00:27:00] And just going back to Jesus is what I tell the survivors listening, my people, in my groups, when you're trying to reconstruct, right? Like, well, what do I do? What do I believe? Well, this is what I tell 'em is go back to Jesus. What was Jesus doing?
And you talk about that quite a bit on your show. We're going to get rid of all the fluff and the legalism. You list the prosperity gospel, the purity culture, toxic church leadership, obsession with sin and hell, politics mixed in with the gospel. Mm-hmm. And so we need to get away from those things and come back to
Christ alone. Yeah. Besides our current culture right now, why did you decide to do this podcast? Because, you're really, [00:28:00] right in the middle of the war zone when you come out and say these things. Hmm. Yeah. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment or something.
Right? Like, just love for people to be mad at me online. It's my favorite thing. Um, I get some pushback. Uh, when I started investing more, putting more stuff on YouTube. Obviously on YouTube you can get comments and then I see some comments of people that are like, oh, this guest is a Marxist, blah, blah, blah.
You know, terrible sinner person. I'm like, did you listen to, what are you talking about, man? Jake, a Marxist? I'm like, whatever. No. Um, so sometimes I'm like reading comprehension. We need to work on that 'cause or listening comprehension. 'cause what are you guys saying? I mean it started as just a general kind of theology project.
I wanted to podcast about fun topics that I cared about and then, the closest I have ever felt to hearing the audible voice of God [00:29:00] was this concept of smashing idols. This idea of be a Gideon, who, who smashes idols in the night, and has his dad defend him. Whole fun little story.
And that was like a calling of God. Like this was like, this is what you're supposed to be doing, Jake. And so I followed that. I listened to that. I started focusing a little bit more on, cleaning up the church. Like you said, we're cluttered, so let's clean this extra stuff up.
Let's get back to the essentials here, the basic stuff. And so yeah, it puts me into a fun spot. Where I get to have all those conversations that you mentioned. Many of those conversations I don't agree with either. We have people on all different sides of the spectrum. Well, not all sides of the spectrum.
There are some sides. We're not gonna touch those sides. But we have a lot of different perspectives and things of that nature. And so I try to select guests that are gonna be more charitable and more, given us something to think about in trying to strip away stuff [00:30:00] to point us to Jesus.
So, listen to some of these titles, religious Certainty and being the only one saved.
Ooh. That was Scott Lloyd. Crotch Christianity misses the Gospel and yes, I did laugh at that. I thought that was a funny episode. Yeah. People hate when I say the word crotch, but you know, it's fine. Oh yes. I got a good giggle. Six in the morning when I'm on my way to work. Um, no king, but Christ rethinking State, Craig Hargus.
Mm-hmm. Why I'm not a creationist anymore. That was very interesting, Jake. I listened to that very intently. The Bible is not an informational book book, which, um, I've learned that the hard way, uh, in my reconstruction. Can the Bible be an idol? Ooh, look, look at you, Jake. You're really stirring the pot now.
Oh yeah. The [00:31:00] dangers of Christian nationalism and tribalism. You had Scott McKnight on Deconstruction. That was mm-hmm. Probably the first podcast I listened to and it was absolutely fantastic. Scott is amazing. Oh, and I agreed with everything that he said. I'm gonna get some of his books, Oh yeah.
Yeah. Comment on some of these topics here. About the Bible's not an informational book. You've got an Miv, right? Uh, MTS Master of Theology. MM okay. So I real, what I really like about you, Jake, is that you are very transparent with, okay. I've made a lot of mistakes as a Christian in that I thought I knew everything.
I thought that, I had all my beliefs set in this little box, and if anybody, challenges my box, then they were, a heretic. And, I'm super [00:32:00] Christian. Let me tell you, I was that person too. Mm-hmm. I was like that when I was in my old. Mm-hmm. I thought, wow, this guy gets it.
And you're like, oh, until I went to seminary and then, uh, some of the professors took me down a peg or two. Oh, yeah. And, showed you some things. Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned it, like for me, I went to college thinking I already knew the answers, but I was like, yeah, but I still have to have the degrees
just to get the next job, blah, blah, blah. And really just was opened up to a world that I didn't really know that well, apparently. And just encountering diversity of thought was really important. And at its best, that's what higher education, education of any kind is supposed to do.
Tell you there are some other way. Yeah. Okay. You know, two plus two equals four. But a lot of things in the world, there's like some [00:33:00] different perspectives, different angles here and things of that nature. And so kind of kicking and screaming like, uh, God brought me through education and said, Jake, yo, you don't know everything.
You actually know very little things. And, um, I was humbled through that process Now. Education absolutely can lead many people to be more prideful, to be more puffed up, to be like, oh, I know everything now because I have a degree. I was a lucky case. Or it did the opposite. I still like to think I know a couple things.
You know, the Bible study at church. I'm like, yeah, but have you guys considered the Greek word means? But, you know, occasionally there's still that. But I was privileged that I had professors that were, that, you know, they were Christians, they were teaching Bible and theology and they were gracious to young 20 something Jake, and we're willing to walk through [00:34:00] with him and to take his questions and.
I was introduced, ultimately while I was studying the Bible. Interesting. Like as an information book, like I have my degree in the academic study of the Bible. The professors made sure I was still having encounter with Jesus, and that was the key there. It's as much as I love digging into the deep stuff about scripture, and there's so much depth, there's so many different little things you go into, you know, I like the weird parts.
Give, gimme the Leviticus or whatever. Let's get weird here, you know? But, I didn't lose sight of, the real star of the story, Jesus. Mm-hmm. And, and ultimately it is Jesus. That is the truest revelation of God and not the Bible. The Bible witnesses to Jesus. But the Bible is not the main star. It is Jesus.
Um, and I. Was able to realize that, and that opened up everything [00:35:00] that made me a more charitable person. It made me nicer, right? Mm-hmm. Because I didn't think I knew all the answers. So suddenly fruits of the spirit, I had the spirit because the fruits were coming out in a way they were not before.
Because I had a spirit of hatred and division and rightness. Uh, not a super helpful one. So I was privileged, I was lucky. It still took me a couple years, and I am always, aware of that. I don't think anybody should change their mind overnight, like the creationist one, for instance. Um, mm-hmm. I don't expect anybody to listen to that one episode and have their whole world change maybe.
But I just wanna start a conversation. Because change takes time. I took years and my homework was literally reading the Bible. Like when you're a Bible major, that's your homework. So for other people, if it takes some years, that's okay. I get it. Let's wrestle through this stuff. But as [00:36:00] we wrestle, just like when Jacob wrestled with God, you're gonna probably get a limp.
You're gonna, there's something that's gonna happen here. You're gonna be changed. You're gonna get a new name. You're gonna, in his case, at least in Jacob's case, so I say let's wrestle, but be prepared to be changed here. You're not gonna be the same. Yes, I definitely, when I came out of my first marriage and had a change denominations.
Yeah, I was the same mindset. 'cause I did my undergraduate and I was a missionary for 15 years and, you know, I did know a lot about the Bible, but , as you say, there's a lot that I didn't know and I had to go to another church and then I find out that, okay, this is, a church that my previous denomination said was, liberal or Sure.
They were not real Christians. Their backslidden or whatever because they used a guitar in the [00:37:00] worship service. Or they, have differing beliefs in what Bible they use and mm-hmm. Or the girls wear pants. Oh goodness.
The, but the first time I go into these other churches looking for a new place to serve and heal. God just hit me upside the head with a two by four and just like, look, this person here loves Jesus and serves me. So I had gone through a lot of, oh, there's other legitimate beliefs.
I'm married to somebody that does not believe in the rapture. So that was, very different for me. I always thought all Christians believed in the rapture. Uh, the creationist part, I can't really ignore science. But I think what's important is that we believe, yes, God created the earth. Yes, God created man, whether it was a million years or if it was [00:38:00] 10,000 years.
The important part is that I believe that God is the center of, that. It's all the details in between i'm kind of undecided. I'm still, working through all of that. We're still figuring it out.
So I was glad that you brought those topics up in your podcast. You gotta be open to, okay, God, you're gonna show me what the truth is and what is non-negotiable and what is okay, we can differ on some things.
Right? And I am starting in a week, going back to seminary for my M div. I didn't get to learn Greek or Hebrew the first go around, so I'm excited about that part.
Good luck. Yeah. I like languages. I've already been through the humility part and God put me down a peg or two, so I think I'm on the right path to, receive some things from the professors. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, God bless your professors, who were so patient with you. Oh, they're the best.
Yeah. That's all I can ask [00:39:00] for. And now like I said, we don't really talk about politics on the show, but, the dangers of Christian nationalism and tribalism. it's like we're all in these different camps and they're all our enemies 'cause we're in our tribe and we don't go outside our tribe and Yeah, don't talk to anybody else, you know?
Unpack that a little for us 'cause you explained that so well.
Oh man. Yeah. There is, there's a movement. I mean, we're talking in America specifically, but not only in America. Not only in America of any stretch of the imaginations of Christians who are feeling, the loss of power and privilege, right?
Because undeniably Christians don't have the same place in, uh, many governments that they used to. That's an undeniable fact. Oh, mm-hmm. Totally agree. It's not the same. I'm in the Bible belt, there's still a church in every corner, but still it's not the same thing. It was 50 years ago. I wasn't alive 50 years ago, but [00:40:00] from what I understand, a hundred years ago, nobody was alive that long ago.
Probably that listened to the show could be wrong. Um, things are different. Sure. Right. And so there is a movement of people that say, we need to, we need to get back to what was, a place when Christianity was more normalized, had that power and privilege when it made sense to pray at a football game or something, when that was just a kind of a part of the culture.
And some of that is not necessarily bad. I'm always careful when I talk about Christian nationalism. Christian nationalism isn't Christians, spreading their faith or Christians having political opinions, but there comes a point when you have this nationalism, this tribalism, when it's just kind of this ugly mix of Christian values with American values, sometimes with some kind of, uh, white [00:41:00] supremacy kind of things mixed in.
And the kind of cake that comes out of this recipe is just not what Jesus wants from us. It's not close to the gospel, which talks about, peacemaking and is very pro humility and not taking power. And the Jesus we encounter in scripture is very much about the least of these, not so much about let me protect my rights or my privileges and things like that.
That's something Christians need to wrestle with. What are we engaging for? Are we. Engaging for what's best for me or what's best for, the person on the street or the person who just doesn't have anything or doesn't have the same, opportunities as us. Who are we fighting for when it comes to things in the political realm?
And so then, yeah, that's kind of Christian nationalism. In a nutshell, it's a, it's this project to, to take [00:42:00] over and to make things much more friendly to Christianity. And to be clear, like I do actually think the world would be better if everybody was Christian, but I don't want everybody to be Christian by the point of a sword .
Or because it's politically advantageous or better for business. That's not why I want somebody to encounter Jesus, because that's not how we encounter Jesus. And this isn't new. I mean, the church. The church, capital C Church has had some, a real trouble over history If, uh, you ever, looked into history, not some good moment.
There was some really bad moments in church history. Yeah. And those bad moments happened because, a church got in bed with Empire and they said, well, the king will serve God. When a lot of times it was God, quote unquote, serving the king, serving the emperor and getting whatever agenda he wanted.
I don't like these people. Well, God told me to do this, or [00:43:00] whatever. And it got ugly and bad and a lot of people died, which should have been red flag number one when a lot of people die. Probably not at all the way of Jesus. So we talk about that a lot on the show, in different fashions.
We, talk about politics a lot. Um, unfortunately. I don't love all the politics talk, but it's something we have to have. It's something that's important, because it affects real people. Yes. And, my brothers and sisters in Christ are going after some of these movements that are making more people, I think, fall away from Jesus because they say, hold on.
I read in the Bible this Jesus guy love him. But those Christians are not talking like Jesus. They're not acting like Jesus. They want to create laws that aren't like Jesus. What's going on here? Um. So, you know, I had a stint in college ministry. I've talked to a lot of young people and you know what, [00:44:00] why the young people are leaving.
It's the Christians. I hear the same story every time. It's not, well, Richard Dawkins had this great argument for evolution. That's not why they're leaving. Mm-hmm. I've heard like it's the, Christians supporting this genocide in this country, or, the Christians taking away the rights of this particular group or the racist or sexist language over here.
That's why, and that's really sad. And I want people to encounter that Christianity without compromise. Right. Really that's Jesus centered. And I think if we discover that, I think people will like that. And I think Jesus is pretty cool. We all gotta recognize that there's a lot of cool things about faith, but we have just cluttered it with idols and with, stuff that maybe is true but is not the most important thing to, to press somebody on.
And that makes me a little disappointed to use [00:45:00] that term. And sometimes it makes me quite angry. So, yeah.
Do you know who David Barton is? David Barton. I, that name is not ringing a bell. Well, he is like a pseudo historian. He made all of these, videos about how the nation was founded and it was pretty much a whitewashing of, colonial history and how wonderful the pilgrims were and had dinner with the, Native Americans and Right.
It was founded on Christian principles, and this is a Christian nation. Maybe some of that is true, but a lot of his books and, reels that he made were not substantiated by actual historians. So he goes to all these churches and talks about our, founder's history.
They were all Bible believing Christians, and we have to get back to our Bible roots. I've been reading a lot of history. Because my mother's [00:46:00] Cherokee, and I'm reading about my heritage. And no, we were not founded on Christianity or biblical principles.
There were a lot of, genocide. The Native Americans were almost exterminated. Of course we know about the slave trade. The slaves, they went through horrible, horrible things. we had, imperialism, stealing people's land, taking whatever they want and murdering whoever gets in their way. So Christian nationalism is very, dangerous because it takes away the truth. And marginalized people get seriously hurt.
Maybe that was their intent to build it on Christian principles, but that's not what happened.
And we don't wanna whitewash history. We don't want to pretend that stuff didn't happen. That we have to take ownership of that as a country. And I don't see that happening right now. It's like, okay, you're gonna try [00:47:00] and take change history. You can't change it and pretend it wasn't there.
Or learn from it, you know? Well, I definitely know work like his for sure. Yeah. And one of the things I try to, I don't just wanna put people down, poke holes into things, when it comes to something like this, whether you believed any of that or not. We always can discover the truth and we can change and we can make things better.
Wherever the nation has been or is going. Maybe not the best direction that we're going in, but I believe we can always turn as a people, as individuals, we can always change and go back to Jesus. I never wanna leave it on the downers, what I'm trying to say. Right, right. Yeah. Um, so I just wanted to throw that in there.
Uh, we can change, we can get back on track. I believe it. Yeah. I, there's definitely, things we can learn from our past and try and make mm-hmm. The world [00:48:00] a better place. Whatever part of the world we're in, we're we can influence our corner. Amen.
Absolutely. For Jesus.
Well, we've talked about a lot of stuff. We're all over the map today, but yeah. I love, loved what you said, what you shared with us, and, just going back and forth on things. And, I know you have your one question you always ask at the end of your show.
I'm not gonna steal your idea, but, do you have any advice for my audience that's listening, some closing thoughts, that you can give them? Yeah. Um, that's very funny. I briefly thought about it. I wonder if she's gonna throw this back at me.
A lot of my guests at the end of the show have a version of this. Um, but even if it wasn't popular, I would say something similar. I think we just need to listen more. We need to learn to listen. I think that's gonna help us spiritually. I think it's gonna help us. You know, as human beings in the world, I wanna challenge people to practice that discipline of [00:49:00] listening.
I'm a talker, right? I have a podcast. I do have other people talk a lot on my podcast though. So that's a great time for me to practice listening. But I want to, oh, jump in and, Nope, nope. I just think, yeah, we can all practice listening a little bit more. Strike up a conversation with somebody different than you and just listen and not try to refute them, right?
That's the old, that should be the old you. That was certainly the old me who is like, thinking of the argument in my head, how I'm gonna refute them, and not caring about them as a human being, not actually listening to the words they say. So, honestly, the most practical thing I can do is listen more.
It's just gonna help us be better human beings. And I think as we learn to listen to people more, I think we're also going to hear god much more clearly. Right. We are going to be, if we're not transformed by the patterns of this world, as Romans twelves tells us, the rest of that verse is so that you'll know the will of God do not be transformed by the patterns of this world.
But be but by the renewing of your mind. I'm butchering it out, but [00:50:00] all the parts are there. They, the point there is, we will know the will of God when we're not engaging in the patterns of the world. And one of these patterns of the world is talking more and not listening. So listen up everybody.
Well I appreciate that. I appreciate you coming back onto the show. Yeah. You are invited any time to come back and talk about whatever you want. I'll come back in season, I don't know, 10, 12, whatever you to yeah. Whatever I make it to.
There we go. Well, God bless you and hope you New Year. Yeah, thank you
I sure hope that you enjoyed Jake Doberenz. He is a wonderful speaker, wonderful human being. We talked about doing what we call a podcast swap. So.
I will be on Jake's show, uh, sometime in the future, within the next month or two, and I'll be telling my story and maybe talking about some of the [00:51:00] idols that I had to deal with and the idols that I need to smash. But you can reach out to Jake on his website that has all things. Jake, that will be jakedoberenz.com.
This will all be in the show notes, but you can see all of the different Ministries that he has.
The things that we talked about. So you can learn about his podcast, his substack writing, his books the Super Jake series. And he does preaching, and teaching in, other churches or conferences.
Listen to his podcast on all of the major, platforms that you're familiar with. His email is contact@jakedober.com. Reach out to him if he can be of any help to you.
Thanks for being here with us. [00:52:00] We will see you next time God bless and bye for now.
Thank you for listening to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast. If this episode has been helpful to you, please hit the subscribe button and tell a friend. You could connect with us at DSW Ministries dot org where you'll find our blog, along with our Facebook, Twitter, and our YouTube channel links. Hope to see you next week.
