THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING Podcast

Katarina Graffman on People & Meaning

Katarina Graffman [https://www.linkedin.com/in/katarina-graffman-8679458/] is a cultural anthropologist and founder of Inculture [https://inculture.com/], a cultural analysis consultancy. She holds a PhD in cultural anthropology and is a researcher at Uppsala University. Her clients include IKEA, Volvo, Bloomberg, Björn Borg, Skanska, Swedish Radio, and the BBC. She co-authored *We Are What We Buy* (2018) and *In Search of the Time to Come* (2020). Her TED Talk “The focus on the rational mind will lead to climate collapse [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYlq0dMoBGw].” All right, so I start all the conversations I do with the same question, which I borrowed from a friend of mine. She helps people tell their stories. I don’t know, it’s just a beautiful question, so I stole it from her. But it’s really big, so I over explain it the way that I’m doing right now. So before I ask it, I want you to know that you’re in total control and you can answer or not answer any way that you want to. And the question is, where do you come from? And again, you are in absolute control. That’s an interesting question. I come from my mother’s womb. I was actually listening to a podcast this morning when I was out walking — a professor in nanotechnology here in Sweden, Maria Strömme. She’s from Norway, but she’s at Uppsala University. She has been in hard science her whole life, but now she’s started to dig deep into philosophy and the humanities, because she thinks she can build a mathematical formula to understand where people go after death. Where they go. And I’ve never been someone who is afraid of death, even though I’m not religious. I think that in some way, we are around. So it was really interesting to hear this hard science woman arrive at the same conclusion through mathematics and physics. She will probably be a name in the future, I think. So to answer your question — I come from my mother’s womb, but I think I come from all over the place, from many, many people from the past. That was a little bit maybe strange. How does that feel? What’s that? It feels good. Nice. You used this phrase, I think, we are around. What did you mean when you said that? I said that the spirit of us — or the something, whatever it is — something in us as humans is always around. The only way to explain it. Do you have a recollection of growing up, as a girl, what did you want to be when you grew up? I wanted to be someone working with elephants, but I ended up working with humans. I don’t know what it says about me. What was the attraction to the elephants? I think I have always been fascinated by elephants because they are very wise. They have a really interesting way of living in groups, how they socialize with each other. So I think maybe that’s also why I studied humans, because what’s interesting about anthropology is how people live in their groups, how we become herd members. We always talk about how humans are so individualistic and unique, especially in Western cultures. But the thing is that we are more dependent on the group than ever before in those individualistic cultures. So that’s my area I’m studying today. Yeah. Did you have an experience with elephants as a child that inspired you, or where did that come from, do you think? I don’t know. Not more than going to the zoo. And then later on, I went to Tanzania, but that was when I was 20-something, when I was starting my PhD. I went for half a year to Tanzania. Of course, I saw elephants in the wild, but by then I had already started my anthropological career. Yeah. Tell us, where are you now and what do you do for work? Yeah, I’m an anthropologist and I took my PhD in Sweden, Uppsala University, in 2002. And then I rather quickly decided to leave the university and academic life because I wanted to work outside. I think that as an anthropologist you can do a lot in society, in organizations, in different aspects of how to understand humans. I wrote my thesis about TV producers. So that was a little bit different from many other anthropologists. My thesis was about how people in content creation produce content for people they don’t know. Especially in Sweden, we have public service and you are supposed to reach certain groups of people in our nation. How can you do that if you don’t know them? So I wrote about that — how producers create fantasy viewers based on maybe one person they know in the countryside. And there was also an American anthropologist studying public service TV who talked about the same idea — that you create a viewer and then you start to make content with that fantasy in your head. And I think that’s very interesting if you look at the marketing industries, because they often have very shallow knowledge of the people they are supposed to create products or advertisements for. So that’s where my interest started. Yeah. I want to hear more about the field work on your thesis. That’s so fascinating. As somebody who’s worked within organizations and big corporations in the US, there’s all this talk about personas and empathy — all these shortcuts to help people develop products for people they don’t know. It’s a whole infrastructure, really. So what did you do and what did you really learn? I started my field work with the idea that I was going to study how you make formats more locally adapted. For example, Who Wants to Become a Millionaire or Survivor or something — the format has a Bible, from the person who came up with the idea, and they say this is the way you should produce this format. But then you have to locally do something to make it popular in Sweden or popular in the UK or popular in Poland or wherever you are. So I was interested in how you make this cultural adaptation of a format. But as an anthropologist, you can never know if what you’re interested in is going to happen during the time you’re there. So they didn’t do any formats. And when I was there — I was at a production company in Sweden, maybe they did 12 to 15 different productions — I started to become very interested in, OK, how do you know how to make this program? Because you don’t know your viewers, whether they’ll connect with it or not. And then I talked to a guy who was in charge of the insights at this production company and he said, well, nobody in this industry comes and asks me anything about how to get to know people. It has happened twice. And I have put a sheet together with some statistics — that’s the only thing they want. But I was so interested because I thought, wow, this is really something. So then I tried to understand how you as a creator actually make things when you don’t know for whom. That was my focus — to understand this process. And different producers use different strategies. One guy, he said that when he’s out of creativity, he goes to a small town in Sweden and has some drinks at the bar. Then he goes home and writes new stuff. He’s met the ordinary Swedes. So it was a lot of easy ways to get to know people without real knowledge. And maybe that’s why I talk a lot about insight washing in my work today. Because I think that what most companies do is insight washing. They have very, very shallow insights. You mentioned personas, generation descriptions, et cetera. And that’s quite shallow because it’s mainly based on quantitative studies or broad categories. They don’t have this deep, qualitative knowledge of how people live their lives, what is meaningful for them, how people act in different groups — because you can never get that if you only ask people things. So insight washing is, I would say, the summary of everything I do. Trying to make organizations understand what it is. Yeah. What’s the definition of insight washing? Well, I think it’s when you try to make very shallow insights look like real knowledge. And I think that when you talk about it in that sense, people get two reactions. One is, wow, that’s true. But they also get a little bit offended — oh, so you don’t like quantitative studies? Well, it’s not about that, because you need both. You need different tools if you really want to understand. So what I say is that you should have qualitative studies as part of it. It can be ethnography, it can be different conversations with people, it can be observation. You need to have the other view, not only what people say. Yeah. You need to be able to see, okay, is this true? Are people really doing what they’re saying? No, they’re not. So that’s what I always say — you can’t trust what people say. You have to understand how they live. So tell us about the work you do now. When do clients come to you, what kinds of problems do they bring, and how would you describe your approach? I can take one project. One of my latest projects was for a big official organization that oversees building — different building projects. They set all the rules for construction. How do you explain that in English? A developer? Yeah, but they also decide all the rules for building. It’s more like a regulatory body. So they have been working a lot with waste in the building industry. And in Sweden, they’ve estimated that around 25 percent is waste — materials, time, everything. It’s the most wasteful industry of all of them. And they said, everybody in the business knows this, but why is nothing happening? Why isn’t the waste getting less year by year? So me and another anthropologist, we had the question: how can we work with this without sending another information folder? Everybody already knows. And that’s very typical when I work with companies — they want to change something. I work a lot with sustainability today. People know, but they don’t change behavior. And the easiest response is to treat the human as a rational person. So let’s send some more information. This time they will probably change — but of course, they will not. So I worked with them, me and Lotta Björklund Larsson, the other anthropologist. We thought, what can we do? Because building is very, very complex. It’s a very complex process from when they start to buy land to the end, and also everything that happens after the building project is over. So we said, let’s look at the knowledge culture in this business. Why is it that everyone knows, but nothing is happening? Is there something wrong with how knowledge is transferred between different parts of the project, between different companies? So we focused on understanding the knowledge culture in the building industry. And what we found was that many, many people have an enormous amount of knowledge, but they don’t have any system to transfer it the way they should. And they don’t systematically look at good and bad projects and use that knowledge going forward. So that’s one way to work — finding ways to make change without using information as the lever. Especially when it comes to consumer culture. People know the world is on fire, but — I still want my fast fashion little dress. So I’ve been working a lot on that. How do you make people change without telling them to change? That’s maybe my main area today. Yeah. Because it’s also a world that really needs change in many, many ways. So when did you first realize you could make a living doing this stuff? I think that I have had my own company now for 20 years, actually. And I know I wrote something about that on LinkedIn, because when I told my former professor at Uppsala University that I wanted to start my own business and have my own company, she said to me, oh, that will be tough for you. Don’t say that you’re an anthropologist. So then I decided — yes, of course I will say that I’m an anthropologist. Why make that choice? I think because she said that people in Sweden think anthropology is something weird. As I told you before we started to record, in Sweden, applied anthropology is not common. You can’t study it as a subject. So an anthropologist in Sweden and Finland has been quite rare, compared to Denmark, for example. In some countries, anthropology has been much more established as a career path. Your advisor told you to avoid the language, but you chose it for yourself. Why? Because I thought that anthropology was the best subject in the world. I was supposed to study law first, then economics, and then I decided no. Economics, because I thought that was quite a broad education and you can do almost anything. But it was really boring — I started with statistics, so I had to take a term off. And then I actually saw anthropology. I didn’t know what it was when I was looking in the catalogue for the courses. And I started to read anthropology, and by my third course, the first term, I was just amazed. It was like a salvation for me. It was really like, wow, this is fantastic. It made me see the world in totally new ways. So then I continued to read anthropology in different subjects and took my PhD. So anthropology for me — it’s not a job. It’s a way of living and seeing the world, I would say. So that’s why when she said, you shouldn’t say that you’re an anthropologist — I said, of course I have to do that. I love that so much. How do you talk about what anthropology is, or what culture is, to people? I know you teach, and these ideas can feel slippery. How do you talk about what culture is? And as an anthropologist, what do you do that somebody who’s not an anthropologist can’t? I would say — I know that it’s difficult. And also in Sweden, we have a particular difficulty with the word culture, because in Swedish, culture is called kultur, and that means both fine arts and culture. One word for both. And that makes it even harder to explain what you do — it makes the whole thing blurry. So you have to find other ways to explain it. When I talk to companies, I mostly talk about behavior — understanding people’s behavior, not only trusting what they say, and looking at group effects. If you’re more practical when you explain, it helps. Because in anthropology, there are around 200 definitions of what culture is. So of course, it’s really difficult. And I think Grant McCracken has a good way, because he talks about it as a language. You learn the grammar when you are a baby and you start to talk, but you don’t know that. You just learn the language and start to speak it. If you start to learn a language when you’re older, you need to learn the grammar. And that can be quite difficult, instead of just being in a culture and you just start to talk. And he says that culture is like that. Culture is the blueprint of the society. It’s the grammar of the society. And it’s the system that decides how people interact and how they behave in different contexts. So for many, it can feel like it’s quite blurry. But ethnography is the method of anthropology. It’s about putting a lot of time in different contexts, studying how people behave, and also talking to them without leading questions. I can study a family and I can always ask them, why did you do that? Or can you explain that for me? But I never ask leading questions, because then you are pulling them towards different answers. And you’re not interested in that as an anthropologist. You want to understand, how do these people live in everyday life? And who is affected by whom? Because that’s the essence of understanding culture. How do you think about the questions you ask? You’ve said you don’t want to ask leading questions — so what kind of question do you find yourself asking? Oh, it really depends on the project. I have one example. I was working with a fashion brand in Sweden and the marketing manager sent me three sheets with questions. Very tiny text. And I was really — oh my God, she has really been thinking about this. She was a new marketing manager at this fashion brand and she wanted to do ethnography. She knew what anthropology is all about. And she said, I have too many questions. So then I said to her, okay, interesting to read your questions, but let’s just leave them. The only thing I would go out and do is actually understand: what does this brand mean for people? And then we studied how people use the brand. They had different stores. We did field work in the stores to understand the customers. We worked in different subgroups to understand how they used the brand — or how they didn’t use the brand. And then we started to say, okay, this is what the brand is all about. And it answered almost all her questions, but we had this really broad approach. And the most interesting part was that this company thought they were so much hotter, in the trendier customer groups. And it actually showed that no, they were very late majority. And that made a total difference for them — how they looked at the brand, what kind of marketing they were supposed to do. Everything changed because they realized they had been thinking totally wrong about who used the brand and why. So I would say that most projects I do, I look at it very holistically, with a very broad question. And then you start to get knowledge and you get closer and closer to what is really interesting. And I call that the white spaces — and the white spaces are almost always something the company haven’t thought of at all, because you find it when you go in with this broad perspective. What do you love about the work? Where’s the joy in it for you? I would say two things. I meet a lot of people that I never would meet, because we live in our bubbles. And sometimes when you go out and do your field work — you have to go out in the evenings, and you feel, oh, I’m so tired, it’s tough going out tonight — but then it’s so fun to meet people you never meet otherwise. It can be in parts of Sweden I never go to. It can be different kinds of people that I normally don’t hang around with. We always live in our bubbles — at work, doing our exercise, the family, the area we live in. So I love that part, that I meet so many different kinds of people. And then also — it’s fantastic to do this often long study. It doesn’t have to be that long. When you write your PhD, you’re supposed to be one or two years in the field. And that’s not possible if you work with company clients. But you put a lot of time in anyway. And then when you have all this data and you start to look at it and work with it and you realize, wow, look here — here is a real finding, here is a white space. I think that’s the most gratifying part of being an anthropologist. I’ve got two questions trying to come out at the same time. You’ve been at it a long time. How do you feel like it’s changed, or its role has changed, over that period? I think that’s changed just in the last few years. When you do anthropology and ethnography in companies, you’re often looking eight to ten years out. What can we see today? What kind of trends, what kind of behavior can we see that will actually have an impact five, eight, ten years from now? Because you’re looking for those small signals when you do ethnography. And my feeling is that companies are not interested in this long-term perspective anymore. It’s more like two years now. And that’s a little bit scary, especially because the world is changing so fast. Instead of having this long perspective, they’re just looking at the fires right now. And I’ve been talking to other consultants from other fields and they say the same — the long-term perspective is gone. And that’s scary, because you need it if you want to have a sustainable society. But what I’ve experienced in the last one or two years is something interesting, because I’ve met several highly educated engineers who say to me, we need the knowledge you have about understanding human beings. Engineers can be very focused on what they are doing right here, right now. And maybe they don’t see how the impact will be felt in other parts of society. I’ve heard several engineers say that knowledge about how human beings behave will be even more important, because if we are going to scale up these technical solutions, it can be catastrophic if you don’t understand the impact and how people behave. And several really well-educated people, both in tech and other fields, say that understanding how human beings use technology will be so much more important when we have this technology all around us all the time. So it’s hopeful, I think. Though it will take time before companies understand that, because right now they think they can do everything themselves. And the whole discussion about how everything will become very average, because they do all the creative work with AI — so of course, it will all be the same. I think it will take time before companies realize that they really need to do something different. That they really need this understanding of how people live and what’s important for them. Two things you said earlier — the insight washing, and the way anthropology is almost exclusively focused on very durable, enduring learnings. There’s a huge gap between what organizations like to digest and what anthropology actually creates. Do you feel that mismatch? And then — this is a big question — for somebody in a leadership position who wants real knowledge, not insight washing, what guidance do you give them about balancing different ways of learning about who they serve? That was a very long, dense, tricky question, because I think that most organizations live in a system — they already have ways of doing stuff. And the way they’ve been doing it, it’s difficult to bend the system, because everything is connected to the same way of working, including how you look at insights. So the main thing I would say is this: when I started — I’ve been working now for over 20 years — I had a lot of meetings in the beginning. And I would say that maybe two to three percent of people in CEO positions understood what I was talking about. And I quickly realized I couldn’t sit with people who didn’t even understand what I was talking about, because it would just drain my energy. And today, I would say maybe 15 to 20 percent understand, after 20 years. Of course, I also have much more experience now, many more examples. So I can explain better. Because you can’t sit and talk in anthropological terms — you have to find better ways to explain. But there is a difference. And the first thing I say is, look at what you’re measuring. Because we live in a measurement society — everything should be measured, all the time. How effective people are at work, how successful our product is, how much people love sustainability, blah, blah. You measure everything. So the first thing I say is, can you look into everything you’re measuring? What are you measuring, and why? And what kind of answers do you think you’re getting? Because if they start there, they soon realize that maybe they don’t understand the right things. And one typical example — if you measure how loyal your customers are, or how satisfied your co-workers are, you have these measurement systems that you do every year. And I’ve worked with companies where I say, okay, you’ve done this with your co-workers for — what, 30 years? Have you changed the questions? We have a totally different world. Oh no, we can’t change the questions, because then we can’t compare to what they said 10 years ago. And for me, that was really like — okay, society has totally changed. But you still ask the same questions. It’s amazing. So very often I start by saying, what are you measuring? What kind of quantitative studies are you doing? Look into those things. And maybe let someone with a qualitative eye look at what you’re doing. You might save some money, because some of these things aren’t telling you anything. So I think that’s the first thing to keep in mind. And also to question this idea of information as a way to change people’s behavior and values. Most people in companies know it doesn’t work, but they don’t have any other tools. People aren’t changing, they still eat bad things — okay, let’s do another information campaign. They know this isn’t working, but they don’t have alternatives. So you give them some ideas. How could you do this differently? Maybe it could be nudging, or other approaches. Try to make small changes, and then they understand, wow, this is really good for us. And then they can start to make bigger changes. I want to go back to that example — the client who wouldn’t change the questions because it would ruin their ability to track change over time. Can you be explicit about what makes that insane? What’s the assumption underneath that’s so problematic? I would say — you have this saying that how you ask things, that’s the kind of answers you get. And for example, it can be such easy things as using the wrong words. Maybe you’re using words that people in the 90s understood one way, but people in 2025 experience differently. I can give you an example. I was working with a big TV company in Sweden, and they were doing a lot of quantitative studies on how young people experienced different media and technology. And they were using the phrase “new media” when they were talking about digital media. Because if you remember, 20 years ago, we talked about new media — that was the word. They didn’t know what to call YouTube, so it was new media. And they were still using that phrase in their quantitative studies. And the young people we were studying, they said, what? What is new media? I know what old media is — that’s public service, that’s radio, that’s newspapers. I don’t know what new media is. So they couldn’t even answer the questions because they didn’t know what was being asked. That’s a very simple example. And you also need to understand that media technology has so fundamentally changed the way we live and understand the world. If you don’t have that included in your quantitative studies — if you want to understand customer loyalty or behavior — it’s really strange. Have you ever heard of appreciative inquiry? We don’t need to get into it. But David Cooperrider — it’s an approach to transformation that’s not problem-solution. It’s about identifying where things are working, peak experiences, and trying to replicate the good as opposed to solving the bad. He had a quote: we live in the world that our questions create. And I feel like that’s the idea you were expressing. Yes, yes, that’s very, very true. And I think that’s also connected to what I’ve been saying about white spaces — broadening the area of what you’re interested in. Because otherwise, managers have some ideas about what’s going wrong, or what they want to check. And if your research doesn’t give them the answer they want, well, then they don’t use it. They’ve already decided what they want to confirm. The problem is that very rarely is that correct, because it’s often something else that’s wrong — something else in people’s everyday life that is affecting your brand or your product. And managers sit, maybe they sit for quite a long time in the same company. And of course, they develop this framed view of things. That’s the way of being human. If you are in a certain context, you start to see only what’s inside the frame. So it’s really hard to go outside your own frame of safety and start to understand what’s going on. And sometimes it’s even better to study people who don’t use your brand or don’t use your product. Because then you understand why they’re not using it. You can get more insights from that than from studying the people who are already using it. So there are a lot of ways to get a much better understanding than the traditional way of doing research. We’ve just got a little bit of time left. I’m always curious to hear people advocate for qualitative. You’ve talked about measurement, and I think we probably agree that there’s a kind of qualitative illiteracy in organizations — people don’t really understand what qualitative is, or that it’s actually data. How do you talk about what makes qualitative so important, and the role it should play in how people make decisions? Well, I think I have mentioned it now. I use this quote: people don’t say what they think, they don’t know what they feel, and they for sure don’t do as they say. And that’s my idea of being human. And that’s what I bring into the field when I start to do my study. We live with this idea of the rational person who understands information and can interpret the knowledge and then make a wise decision. And we can’t. And humans are not living in a social and cultural vacuum. We are social beings. I would say that most things we do in life is because of other people. I think, for example, Mark Earls has written Herd. It’s about the idea that you are part of a group — whether it’s the family, or your company, or your friends, or different groupings in social media. You want to do as other people do, because that’s the way of being human — being part of a group. So in that sense, it’s so important to study how groups live and how they act and what’s important for the group. Beautiful. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you accepting the invitation. It’s been a blast talking to you. Thank you. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Alexi Gunner on Signals & Culture

Alexi Gunner [https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexigunner/] is an independent cultural researcher and strategist based in Melbourne. He is the founder of idle gaze [https://idlegaze.substack.com/about], a consulting practice and newsletter [https://idlegaze.substack.com/] exploring the hidden undercurrents of culture. He previously held strategy roles at We Are Social, AKQA, and Zalando, and served as cultural futurist and Berlin chapter lead for RADAR. In our conversation, we talked about his recent essay, “Research as a form of pattern disruption [https://idlegaze.substack.com/p/research-as-a-form-of-pattern-disruption].” Later, in a discussion of analog v digital planning, we discussed Yancey Strickler's “The Dark Forest Theory of the Internet [https://www.ystrickler.com/the-dark-forest-theory-of-the-internet/]” (2019), which frames the retreat from public online spaces not as apathy but as survival — people going quiet because the predators came out. So you may know this, you may not know this, but I start all these conversations with the same question, which is, I borrowed it from a friend of mine. She helps people tell their story. She’s an oral historian. And when I heard it, I was really struck by how beautiful the question was, but it’s pretty big. So I over-explain it the way that I’m doing right now. So before I ask it, I want you to know that you’re in total control. You can answer or not answer any way that you want to. And the question is, where do you come from? So I think I was born in Sweden. My mother is originally Finnish, but she grew up in Sweden. My father is British. And from quite an early age, we were moving around a lot. So before my teenage years, we’d lived in Brazil, in the US, in the UK. So constantly moving around. And I think because of that, I don’t feel particularly Swedish. I also don’t feel particularly British. And so I think from a geographical or a national identity point of view, I think it’s always quite hard for me to answer that question. I think for me, because I was moving around so much as a child, it programmed me to continue moving around constantly. So now even in my adult life, I’m not often rooted in one place. So after high school, I went to the UK. I was in London for six, seven years. And I moved to Berlin, where I was seven years. I’m now living in Melbourne. And so I think that every time I move, every place I think shapes me in a different way. So I think rather than feeling like I come from one specific place or one specific identity, I think all these different places I’ve lived in have had an influence on me. So it’s almost like this bricolage of different influences. So I think that’s how I like to see myself respond to that question. And what was it like growing up moving around? What was it like as a kid moving around that much? I mean, I think in some ways, it was quite challenging. Because every few years, it would be this process of unrooting the family and then going to a new place and starting in a new school. And I think it’s challenging because I think you start to build this identity as being a little bit of an outsider. You’re constantly having to adapt to a new place, a new situation, a new social circle. So often I always say that I envy a lot of my friends who’ve been based in the same place their whole lives. They’re still really close friends and they’ve spent time with their childhood friends, people they know from primary school, they’re still friends with now as adults. But I think in a lot of ways, I think it builds a lot of useful tools. I think being this outsider that has that ability to adapt to new situations, I think does help a lot in life. I also think it helps a lot, I think, when you are a researcher and a strategist as well. I think something I’ve been reflecting on recently is being always in this mode of being ready to adapt to a new situation, moving to a new place, and then trying to fit into the new culture or a new social circle or a new context. I think what happens is we start to become very observant around a lot of the nuances and the rules and all this seemingly invisible layer of things that happen in a culture and in the rituals of communities. And I think that’s how you learn to fit in to new contexts and situations. But I also think it helps in being a strategist in terms like you are always trying to learn about a new type of consumer or target audience or a new subculture. And you start to notice these nuances and these almost like these invisible unwritten rules and rituals that I think a lot of people might miss. So I think moving around, it’s been challenging, but it has, I think, been useful in a lot of ways as well. Do you have a recollection of what young Alexi wanted to be when he grew up? So I had a phase where I really wanted to be a war reporter. I think I always felt like it seemed very exciting, looking at the news and seeing these reporters on the front lines. And I think gradually that shifted to wanting to become a culture journalist. So it was always like, oh, I want to work in media. As a young child, that was this dream of becoming a traditional journalist. And I think for a long time, I got really into this idea of wanting to be some culture journalist, analyzing things that are happening in culture and society, doing the long form scoops and features in newspapers. So I think that was the thing I wanted to be when I grew up. And was there, who was the role model? Was there something, was there a model out there that was like, oh, that’s what I want to be? No, I think growing up. So one thing I always remember is that my parents used to subscribe to a lot of print publications, print newspapers. And I think that had a really big impact on me. It’s like every morning before I went to school, I would go through the, read the morning papers. They had a subscription to, I remember, for example, being really influential when I was in my teens. I thought the doing that deeper digging, the really reflective long form pieces. I remember thinking like, that’s super cool. Like, how do I get into that? So catch us up. You mentioned you’re living in Sydney, is that right? And so I’m currently based in Melbourne. Melbourne. I don’t know why I did that. All right. So catch us up. Tell us where you are and what you’re working on. What do you do for work? Yeah. So at the moment I recently relocated here, but I’m still spending a lot of time in Europe. I moved here from Berlin and I’m continuing what I did in Berlin. So at some point I went from being a full-time strategist to breaking free and starting as a freelancer. It started through my Substack newsletter. So that’s something I started when I was a full-timer. But I eventually started to get client interest in the things that I was writing about. And that’s when I had the epiphany that, okay, this is interesting. I could maybe start a little bit more of a consultancy and a little bit more of a business model around the things that I research, that I document and I write about in the newsletter. So that was the major driver that made me want to start working independently. So yeah, at the moment, what I call myself is a cultural strategist. I work both a lot on the research side of things, but also on the creative strategy side of things. And I still continue with the Substack. I think whether it’s writing for the Substack or doing the client work, I think the approach to research and the principles I think are similar, where it’s really about trying to dig a little bit deeper into all these trends that we’re seeing, trying to understand what are these deeper undercurrents that are shaping these things we’re seeing that are happening? Trying to connect dots between lots of different domains to try to build up a more nuanced bigger picture of what’s happening in culture, what’s happening in society, trying to break free from I think some of the common narratives and assumptions that we have around where culture is heading. And trying to maybe provide a little bit of a reframe for people of maybe this is an angle that you haven’t thought about. Here are some of the more interesting nuances and tensions that are behind all this stuff that is happening. And writing about that in the Substack, but also then clients helping them to navigate that and to help shape their role in the world and how they want to position themselves in this perspective of what’s happening in culture. Yeah. I’m curious about this. That’s how I encountered you in that, it’s impossible to ever discover the moment of interaction, but your newsletter came into my world and I love it. I've always appreciated it, so I'm curious about the origin story. Where did the inspiration come from? Why do it at all? And how has it evolved over time? So I think I started the Substack during COVID at some point, everyone had their pivot project, right? So that was mine. That’s where it started. And it started off, I didn’t have a specific model or something specific that I was trying to do. It was basically trying to have an outlet for things that I was researching and things that I was trying to make sense of. There wasn’t a bigger plan, but I’ve always enjoyed writing. And I think taking the research and patching into something, engaging something for people to read, I think I immediately felt like it was something that I enjoyed. And yeah, the more I did it, the more I felt like even though I was writing about stuff that I was personally interested in, I wasn’t doing it for trying to write about things that I thought an audience would be interested in. So it’s really nice to then see subscribers come in and also have this joint interest in the things that I was writing about. And I think that’s what motivated me to continue with the newsletter. I think one thing that was always a big part of what I wanted to do with the newsletter was trying to, I think, connect dots in more interesting ways. And yeah, trying to challenge these generic ideas about where a culture is heading. I think that’s where the name comes from as well. So Idle Gaze, it’s this idea that if you focus your gaze too much on one specific domain or one specific area of culture, you start to build a bit of tunnel vision. If you can have a little bit of an unfocused view, you can start to see the bigger picture a little bit, and you might be able to connect dots between seemingly unrelated things. So that’s really what I was trying to do was tickle my brain and tickle other people’s brain of, oh, well, you see this thing happening over here and you see this thing happening here. They are connected in some way. There are these deep undercurrents happening in culture that are connecting all these different emerging behaviors, emerging signals that we’re seeing. It’s also someone, a friend once told me when she was talking to me, she said that I had an idle gaze. I think I was daydreaming and losing focus on the conversation. But that phrase stuck with me. And I thought that was a good name for the substack. And it’s also the name of the consultancy. So yeah, it’s stuck. Yeah, it’s really great. I love hearing that story. I’m curious, how would you describe, because a couple of times you’ve pointed at the fact that there’s a common narrative or there’s a tunnel vision in the way that we or the way that culture maybe is talked about. Can you talk more about how you see culture or do you consider yourself to be in the space of trends? I don’t think that’s a word I see you use, but where do you see yourself operating and how do you think, what’s your, how would you describe the state of it today and how you’re, twice you were, listen, there’s this common, there’s a big conversation going on about how the direction we’re going. And I don’t think that that’s the right conversation. I think we need to look at things differently. Can you say more about that? Yeah. So I think in terms of the client work that I do, I call myself a cultural strategist, which I think is one of these interesting terms where I feel more and more people, it’s become the buzzword, I think, among strategists to call oneself a cultural strategist. The way I see it is that I have my foot in two different domains. On one side, there’s the research and trying to do a little bit of the deeper digging and really trying to understand whether it’s emerging trends across certain consumer groups, but also trying to understand subcultures, different movements, doing that proper research work, but then also having a foot in the creative strategy. So I think for me, it’s working at an intersection of proper cultural research, but then also creative strategy. How can you apply those insights to a creative opportunity, a business problem? So I think for me, calling myself a cultural strategist is trying to convey that it’s the intersection of these two things, the research and the strategic application of that research. In terms of the research, so I recently published, for the first time on my Substack, I was trying to tangibly define my approach to research, which I’d never really done before, but it’s something that I inherently had in my mind, I couldn’t really describe it, but I had an attempt of trying to set out some tangible principles of the way that I approach research, because yeah, I do see myself as a little bit of a trend forecaster, a cultural researcher, but I think there are unique or specific principles that I follow in terms of our research. So one of the things that I always think about is looking for weird signals. So when you talk traditionally about trend forecasting or research, right, you typically talk about, you’re looking for weak signals, right? A weak signal can be any signal happening today, any anything interesting or behaviour, an emerging trend that provides evidence of a future shift in culture or society, right? I think the danger often that a lot of research and a lot of strategists, I think a trap that they fall into is falling into a lot of the commonly accepted narratives about where culture is heading. So there’s a danger of confirmation bias. So if you think, this is what’s happening in culture, you’re only going to start spotting the signals that corroborate, that support that worldview that you have. So for example, if you are bullish on AI, you think it’s going to transform all these industries, you’re only going to find evidence that that’s the case, and you’re going to dismiss and miss, totally miss, be blind to things that might challenge that view of maybe what the future looks like. So what I think about is weird signals instead. So a weird signal is anything that you come across that might make you feel uncomfortable, or might feel strange, because there’s a little bit of cognitive dissonance, right? Because you see that and it might challenge a commonly held assumption that you have about a certain thing that’s happening. And the interesting thing about spotting these weird signals is that it’s a glitch in the matrix, right? Where you get this weird feeling, oh, it shouldn’t be that. That’s strange. But I think the interesting thing about weird signals is that it helps to show you it’s a portal to a vastly different future. It’s a future that’s vastly different to our current reality. And I think that’s one way of trying to challenge this, the commonly held assumptions about where certain trends are heading in culture. So that is something I think that is a key cornerstone of the way that I approach research. Secondly, it’s around trying to find non-obvious connections. So a little bit what I was mentioning earlier is often when you see trend reports, or documents that are prepared for clients, it’s often the way the trends are framed is you’ll have evidence, signals that are very closely connected, that are from the same domain. So if you see three startups with the same business proposition, that are getting funding, you’re, okay, cool, here’s an emerging industry, or you might see something that’s happening in hospitality, and then you see something that’s happening, oh, here’s a new trending alcohol product, and here’s a new food trend. These are very interconnected industries, right? And so, not that these trends are wrong, but I think what I’m always trying to do is trying to spot these more, these less obvious connections of, okay, let’s try to look at lots of different domains. Look at both highbrow culture, lowbrow culture, if you can start to connect the dots between these things, that’s when you start to, I think, unlock more interesting perspectives around what’s happening in culture, but not limited to one specific domain. I think that’s a useful tool to starting to, yeah, I think, build a more nuanced and a more, yeah, I think, more unexpected, more imaginative view of what’s happening in culture. I think a third key thing for me, which is, I think, quite challenging, is this idea of trying to resist immediacy. I think when people often think about trend forecasters and cultural researchers, there’s this idea that you’re always on the lookout for these trends that are emerging, but we live in a time where there’s this rapid hype cycle of these trends that blow up overnight, but they’re not really trends. They’re more fads, right? Things, you see something that’s happening on TikTok, it’s huge, viral for one day, and then it disappears. But there’s always this pressure, I think, as a researcher, as a trend forecaster to jump on that, try to define it, give it a catchy title, and then write a subset about it the next day. Or when you’re working with clients, there is this pressure of you need to be on top of what’s happening in culture. But I think often when you are too, when you try to define something too quickly, I think you miss out on the bigger picture. Because you’re looking at this one isolated thing, it only tells I think part of the picture, if you can observe these things that are happening, and you can sit back, give it a few weeks, give it a few months, there’s some stuff that I’ve been tracking that I haven’t written or tried to define in years, but I’m still keeping a close eye on it. That’s when you start to then figure out what is the bigger picture here, all these things are connected, they might not all be happening at the same time, but it starts to tell the story about a broader macro theme. So yeah, I think having this process in place where I’m tracking all these different trends, I don’t talk about them, I don’t publish about them, but I’m always collecting signals about them. And the more I collect signals that either support this trend, or maybe challenge them, the more nuanced and more rich the analysis of a trend becomes. So yeah, so I have these principles on the research side of things that, I mean, certainly not something I’ve invented, but I think it’s helps me to, yeah, I think disrupt a little bit and make the research and the analysis, yeah, a little bit more interesting, a little bit more nuanced. Yeah. And that’s certainly what attracted me to Idle Gaze and keeps me returning. And I’m now looking, I’ll share a link to this post that you were talking about research as a form of pattern disruption. And in the beginning, you said this year alone, 135 or more trend reports were published by tech companies, agencies and consultants. So I appreciate everything you share in there. And I’m wondering, to what degree can you, how, what’s your process for collecting signals and how do you organize that stuff? What’s that? Is there a way of talking about the messy process of collecting them and accumulating them and waiting for them to become something or not? Yeah, I think I see myself as a little bit of a tool junkie. I’m always trying to find the perfect, particularly with the internet research. And the reality is that a lot of the research that I do is predominantly online research. For me, also doing the IRL, talking to real people, going out in the real world is super important. I have my own processes for that. But trying to manage the sheer volume and speed of things that are happening online, I think is a big challenge. So I’m always carefully trying to tweak and try to find the right tools and the right processes. So for me at the moment, it’s a combination. It’s this messy stack of different tools that I use. So something that I mentioned in the research as a form of pattern disruption essay is because I try to give a little bit of tangible examples what this looks like in terms of the research process. So I mentioned that I use this app called Sublime, which for me is a really great tool for collecting and making sense of signals, different ideas that I come across online. The easiest way to describe Sublime is that it’s like a Pinterest for researchers. So essentially, you’re saving and you’re capturing things that you come across online and you put it into different collections. And you set up a process of intentionally going through those collections, you treat them a little bit like digital gardens, where you’re slowly nurturing them, you go through them and you start to figure out how these different things related. What an app like Sublime does as well is that it helps to unearth other ideas that other people have saved on the platform that are connected to your ideas. So back to the way that I do research of trying to connect the dots between all these different things. I think it’s a really useful tool. And for me, being able to spatially map those different ideas is super important as well. So predominantly, I use Miro for that. So I think going from having all this noise and trying to do the clustering, the analysis, connecting the dots, I think for me, being able to lay it out spatially and use a mind mapping tool like Miro is super useful. I do that when I prepare my essays for Substack, but also in terms of doing the client, the commercial client work as well. But I also have a huge database on Notion, where I just collect and tag things as well. And my desktop is just full of screenshots. And that’s not a very useful, it’s not a useful system. But that’s where a lot of things live as well. So it’s a little bit of different, lots of different ways. I’m still trying to figure out the perfect or the ultimate process of that. But that’s a long term challenge. When did you first discover that you could make a living doing this? So I think just to maybe rewind in terms of my career trajectory. So when I went to uni, I even wanted to be a journalist, I didn’t study journalism, I ended up studying language and communication. It was just broader, this broader course, there were some journalism modules to it as well. And it was quite a theoretical course, but I got, I really enjoyed, I think some of the more academic theoretical stuff that I was learning at uni, just all the fundamentals, Stuart Hall, encoding, decoding, Roland Barthes, mythologies, semiotics, Marshall McLuhan. I thought all this stuff was super interesting. Although when I was a uni, I never thought that I would actually apply any of this to my real work. I just thought, people don’t, this is just something people use in academia. And I started off my career. So at some point, I realized that being a strategist was a thing, which was totally random. I had a brief stint working in public relations when I graduated. And it was just by chance that we were sharing office with a creative agency. And I just remember, I remember instantly gravitating towards this group of people in the office, bare corner of the office, there was always post-its up on the walls, and a whiteboard where they were drawing these frameworks. And I was, I just remember trying to figure out what they were doing, because there was just something about them. I was, that seems really interesting. And that’s when I started to inquire a little bit more. And that’s when I realized there was this thing called being a strategist at a creative agency. And I mean, I encounter a lot of strategists who they just, there’s not a lot of, maybe it’s better nowadays, but I think 10 years ago, there just wasn’t a lot of education of when you work at an ad agency or creative agency, it’s not just about being a creative or an accounts person, there is this planning function as well. So I just found that randomly. And I realized, okay, that’s what I want to do. So I eventually found myself on a graduate scheme at an agency in London, called We Are Social. And it was a really good training ground for being a strategist there. And I had a great boss that Harvey Cosell, who he came from a very old school planning background. He’d worked at these old school London agencies that had defined planning, JWT, and so forth. And so there was this immense respect for planning fundamentals. But at the same time, We Are Social was one of these first agencies back in the day to really invest a lot in cultural research. So they had a proper research team. And it was quite novel at the time of they were selling in cultural research and insights as a function to clients when a lot of agencies weren’t really doing that as part of a creative agency context. And I think being able to combine these things of learning proper planning strategy, how to work really closely and collaboratively with creatives, transforming insights into really tight, clear creative briefs, but also really trying to create culturally resonant work through doing that proper research. That’s where I already started, I think, to figure out as a strategist, this is what I really want to do is have a foot in the research, but also having a foot in the creative strategy. And I worked at a few different agencies, I moved to Berlin, I worked in house a little bit as well as a strategist. And, but it wasn’t until I started my newsletter, but I realised, okay, it’s this funny thing where when I started writing about things, I thought I was just interested in this. And it was really interesting to see that people client side were coming to me being, okay, this is a topic that we are really interested in, we’re trying to figure out internally, do you want to do a research sprint for us? Do you want to come in and explore this topic further within the context of these projects that we’re working on. And that’s where I realised, okay, not only am I interested in this stuff, but there is a business case for it as well. And so that’s where I realised, okay, because I always really enjoyed working as a strategist in creative agencies. But I think what I this, I’m quite passionate about working at this intersection of being a very enthusiastic researcher that really understands trends and not just researching consumer groups, but really doing for example, the forecasting, the foresight, not just understanding where things are now, but where is culture emerging in the next few years? Doing this proper research work, but also finding a way to translate it into creative work into creative opportunities. I felt like it’s, there’s not a lot of agencies that do this particularly well at the moment. So I think that was another driver of okay, as a consultancy, these are the kind of projects that I want to get. I look at, I think there are smaller agencies out there that are really great at the trend forecasting. And the proper research, I follow agencies, nonfiction and places like that. But then I think for me, what’s really interesting is you have these smaller agencies and these consultancies that are proper trend forecasters do the trend work, but also creating really interesting creative work out of that. So I think for me, places like there’s an agency in London called Morning, also Sibling Studio, DigiFairy. These small indie agencies are emerging that are working in this intersection. And this is where I’m trying to place myself as well in terms of my consultancy. I have some really great creative directors that I work with that I pull in for particular projects. But I think it’s been a slow realization that this is something that there is a demand for with client work. It can live beyond just a substack, because it’s quite hard to make a living off substack. It’s a passion project, first and foremost, but it’s also opened doors to getting commercial work as well. So I think it’s just been a bit of a trial and error and testing and building confidence that this is something that I can do independently. You mentioned you had a mentor at the agency, and you talked about traditional planning and maybe it’s analog planning versus digital planning, and maybe that’s a little brutish and reductive. But I’m curious, what’s the role of qualitative in your work? What’s the role of what have you kept from traditional planning and how have you evolved it into the practice that you have now? Or does it have a role? I feel like these things get pitted against each other, but I’m curious, what’s the balance between analog research and planning and digital and social research and planning? So, even though I say I’m a cultural strategist, a big part of that is being a researcher. I don’t have any particular formal education or formal training in a proper research environment doing really structured qualitative or quantitative research. But I think working at agencies that, starting off at agencies, even though the agency that I mentioned before where I started off at We Are Social, it’s a digital agency. But I mentioned, I think the planning team had this respect for this more analog type of planning and research. And so, I think that’s something that has really stuck with me. So, even though today, I, a big part of what I do is online research. And like you said, I think I’m more of a digital approach to research and strategy. I think for me, the analog stuff is still super important. I think I’ve never been a huge fan of really structured focus groups, for example, and traditional surveys. I think it does have a place. I think when it comes to trying to understand the more IRL approach to research, I think what’s always been more useful for me is, I don’t know if you can call it a more gonzo type of research of, instead of inviting, if you’re trying to understand, let’s say, teenagers in London. When I started off in London, I was working on Nike and Adidas, these sports accounts where a big focus was trying to understand youth culture in the UK. I think what I was taught and what I also realized is that instead of bringing all these teenagers into a corporate office and organizing a focus group, where at the end of the day, it’s just going to be a performance, they’re not going to feel at home themselves. You’re not going to get a lot of super rich insights in my point of view from that. Instead, get closer to their lives. I remember working on Nike projects where we would just go hang out at the inner city football pitches and just observe everything that’s happening around them playing football. Or even just, okay, let’s just organize a WhatsApp group with some people who are part of the target we’re trying to understand. Ask them to just journal or capture, a digital journal, just capture these everyday mundane moments of their lives. Go to study their bedrooms, go in and see what they put up on their walls, the things that they put on their bedside tables. I think stuff like that, I think, unlocks far more interest. For me, it’s a way to unlock really interesting and interesting nuance understanding of a certain target audience or a certain subculture or community. So I think in terms of the analog research, I think that’s something that has played a really critical role. But I think not having that really formal background research, I think, and working often in a creative environment where it’s not so much about provide creating a very detailed research report, but it’s, okay, what are the key interesting tensions inside so we can bring into the creative work? I think that has been, that more Gonzo type of research has been, I think, really useful. And that’s something that, I learned during, for example, my We Are Social days. So I think that’s how I try to combine, more analog research with the online research as well. What do you feel like the Gonzo approach does for you that the digital doesn’t? When you feel like you need Gonzo? I think doing online research is, in some ways getting more and more difficult. I think even if you look five, 10 years ago, people were posting so much on social media, for example, social listening was a really key element of how you would do online research. I think the digital landscape is changing in such fundamental ways at the moment. So people are posting far less on public channels. There’s this move, people talk about the move to a more dark forest ecosystem, where a lot of conversations are happening in DMs, in private WhatsApp groups away from the public eye of public feeds and social networks. So there’s less signals, there’s less data input, let’s say, in that respect. You have to find these and get access to these, I think, these private conversations, private communities to understand how people are talking when it comes to digital. And there are, of course, I think, interesting places to look for. If you want to get that authentic view into what people are really thinking, there are places still online. I think it’s more about, I think Reddit, I still really depend on Reddit. I think Reddit is super interesting for a lot of research because people are very authentic on Reddit versus, let’s say, Instagram or Twitter. It feels much more intimate. I think people trust those spaces a lot more. So I think that is a really key place for me. But also just going on Discord, people are talking more on these private communities and servers on Discord. So I’m spending a lot more time on trying to find those spaces. But I think this is why I think there is more, it’s more and more important to balance online research with offline research as well. Because you can do, it’s more difficult to find those conversations, those insights online. So I think it’s always going to be super important of just getting escaping your desk and exploring, exploring your city, exploring the real world, trying to find what are these, what are the, particularly as a trend, working in the trend space, it’s trying to figure out what are these spaces and places and communities that are sort of there’s a gravitational pull, there’s always these places that culture sort of radiates from, the early adopters, the innovators. You just have to figure out where they are. And often they are offline as well. It could be a gig venue, if you’re trying to understand certain music subcultures. If you’re, I work at quite a few fashion clients, there are certain schools where the students, they are the ones that are experimenting the most, where that’s where you can get a little bit of a hint of certain fashion trends that are emerging. So yeah, I think the analog research I think, is in the next few years, I think it’s become more and more important because you can’t rely on online research in the same way that you could 10 years ago. Yeah. You mentioned the dark forest. That’s a, is that the, I’m vaguely remembering the essay or something. Can you talk a little bit more about what that was? Or that theory? Yeah. So the dark forest theory, I can’t remember who exactly, who originally defined it. I think the person who made it more legible and more widespread was Venkatesh Rao. He’s an online researcher and writer. There’s this collective, it’s called the Dark Forest Collective. They’ve published a few books as well, but the dark forest theory is this, I think it’s a term that originated in sci-fi, where there was a story of these aliens that came to earth and they came to earth and they realised there were no humans left, but the humans were just, they were hiding in the forest. And this is a theory, you can go into a forest and it might seem quiet, but it’s filled with animals, but they are hiding underground. And it’s this idea that same thing is happening online right now, where because of all these different factors, hostility, cancel culture, breakdown of nuanced conversation, people are much more afraid to post things in public feeds. So gone are the days of having a public Instagram channel and posting your most private intimate moments on there. You’re voicing your opinions on Twitter. Instead, all this is moving underground. So, whether it’s WhatsApp groups, DMs on Instagram, forums. Yeah. So it’s this idea of all these conversations and all this, let’s say, cultural production is still happening, but it’s not happening in the public eye anymore. It’s amazing. I should have known this before I went in. It was Yancey Strickler. Yancey Strickler, that’s right. Metalabel. I just found it was 2019 he wrote this piece. I didn’t know until you told the story that it had its origin in a sci-fi novel. And he was borrowing that metaphor to describe the shift in the, I guess, in the availability of public data, because people were, we really came out of a very extroverted social age. I always feel, I always would always, excuse me for a little rant as an old man trained and qualitative and face-to-face stuff. It always struck me as Orwellian that the corporate world chose to describe social listening. It was the first time a corporation ever said that it was listening to anybody. And I was well, it’s not listening. It’s reading. You’re reading public posts. It’s not, you’re not listening to another human being when you’re doing social listening. You’re reading public data, but it’s that being a little resentful. And I think you’re absolutely right. I think there’s always, there’s always been limitations to social listening because you’re not truly listening. Even when people were posting publicly, social media has always been an external performance for people. It’s very rare that people are very honest on social media. I think that’s what’s interesting with seeing people talk in more private confines. I think that’s more listening, but I think again, it’s never a conversation, right? You’re just observing what’s happening. And I think that’s, you’re always going to get richer insights from having proper conversations with people through gaining their trust and digging a little bit deeper. Yeah. How do we think about, I mean, I didn’t, how do we, Derek Thompson, he’s a popular culture author. I don’t know if he’s in the States and in the Atlantic. And I remember he had a quote, because we’ve learned so much, this Facebook era, I feel we’re in a little bit of a hangover with the consequences of this ability to broadcast our thoughts and feelings all the time. And we’re always doing it in isolation. We’re alone with our device, not engaging with another person. So I guess my question is, he says, he’s I don’t think, I think there was one quote, he’s I don’t think we, as a species, we were really meant to be broadcasting this, because we have, we’re so disinhibited, we say things that we would never say if we were in the presence of other people. So I guess my question is just a follow-up really, is how do you think about digital research now, and then how does AI and all that, this feels a conspiracy theorist question, change how we think about what’s going on out there and how people are communicating or expressing themselves online? Yeah, so I think one thing with the AI is, people talk about it’s a dead internet theory as well, but any form of social research is invalid now because, 80-90% of conversations that are happening online is AI bots. Yeah, I don’t know, it’s a theory, but I think it’s becoming more and more true. Even Instagram, his name escapes me, the head of Instagram, but he came out with a statement recently that, in a prediction from Instagram themselves, that in the coming years there’s going to be a high percentage of content created by AI and by humans, and creators and influencers should prepare for this. They see it as an opportunity, but I think the second that Instagram users or social media users feel there’s more AI content than human content, there’s going to be a desire to move to a platform where there is some sort of proof, because it’s harder to distinguish gen-AI content and human content. There’s going to be a desire for a platform where there is some ability to prove that a piece of content is coming from a human. So anyways, yeah, I think on the AI thing, I think that’s going to be a big shift in the next few years. I think to your point around when humans aren’t designed to be constantly broadcasting, most people have quite a dystopian, quite a negative view of where culture, in terms of how cultural production is heading. There’s lots of arguments to say that innovation, invention is at an all-time low in terms of cultural production, whether it’s film, whether it’s music, whether it’s art. But I think that a lot of that lack of invention and creativity and imagination comes from the fact that we right now live in a time where there’s a pressure to always be broadcasting, always be creating, and getting, showing it to the world to get engagement. And I think that there is still a lot of creativity in the world, but it’s that it’s not being broadcast publicly as widely as it has before. So I think if we’re moving into this era where there’s more a culture of working on things in private, where you can follow your own creativity without feeling pressure to shape things to fit what’s going to work well in the algorithm, I think there might be, there’s probably going to be a renaissance, I think, in interesting ideas where we are creating stuff not for immediate broadcast, but for our own pleasure and for our, based on our own interests and tastes. And yeah, I think that’s going to be a positive thing for culture in general. We have just a few minutes left, and I thought I would just open it up. And what are you thinking about now? Is there an idea that you’re fixated or excited about or observing out there that you would to talk about? Yeah, I think I posted last week. So one thing that I’ve been thinking about a lot, which I think is a little bit connected to some of the things we’ve spoken about now previously, I had this piece called Archive Futurism, which I think is based on quite an interesting shift, I think, that’s happening in culture at the moment. So the idea of Archive Futurism stems from this observation that I’ve had recently, that when you look at some of the most forward-thinking and inventive brands, but also creatives at the moment, there’s this newfound enthusiasm with retrospection. And when I talk about retrospection, I’m not necessarily talking about this old recycled nostalgia that we’ve been seeing in culture, but it’s about having a genuine appreciation and respect for the cultural canon. It’s something that I’ve noticed a lot in fashion. So some of the examples that I talk about, one of my favourite fashion brands at the moment is, or one of my designers is Grace Wales Bonner. She runs her own namesake label, Wales Bonner, but she’s also the creative director of Hermes menswear. She talks about, she specifically talks about archival research being a fundamental cornerstone of her creative process, where she is really deeply and diligently researching history, whether it’s Afro-Caribbean diasporas in the UK, or Renaissance painting in the Netherlands, and finding ways to recontextualise this in her work. And I think this not just repeating the past, but really understanding the classics and all this interesting stuff that has happened in the past, whether it’s archives or old masterpieces, not just replicating or repeating it, but finding ways to recontextualise or to challenge this stuff, I think is something that’s happening across lots of different domains and cultures. So another example that I talk about is Charlie XCX, who, I mean, arguably is one of these artists that, on a mainstream scale, is pushing the pop culture zeitgeist forward. What’s really interesting is that, at the moment, she’s putting a lot of time and effort into showing the world that she has this immense respect for the cultural canon. So she recently went on this YouTube series called the Criterion Closet Picks, which is, you invite these famous people to go through the archive of the Criterion films, and they pick out their favourite classics. And she’s talking about being a Cronenberg stan, and she’s talking about all these indie film auteurs from the 60s and the 70s. And it’s an interesting shift for me, because for the past decade, there’s almost been this rejection of the past. There’s been this idea, and this is something that, I’m not sure, I don’t know if you’ve read W. David Mark’s recent book, Blank Space. He argues that we are in this creative rut at the moment, because people have started to reject the cultural canon, where this idea that you should embrace tradition has been tied to more conservative values. And he argues, and it’s something that I think is happening at the moment, is that in order to push culture forward, to be more inventive, to be more innovative, we once again have to really study the cultural canon, what has come before, so that we can find ways to get inspiration from this. And it helps inform creativity in far richer ways than if we start with a blank slate, because we’re always going to be recycling the same references, leaning into the same recycled mood boards. So this idea that the most forward-thinking creatives are looking into the past to come up with more interesting forward-thinking creativity, I think is an interesting shift at the moment that I’ve recently been writing about. Yeah, it’s beautiful. I’m glad you brought that up. Beautiful. Alexi, we’ve run out of time. I want to thank you so much for accepting my invitation and for Idle Gaze, which is a great newsletter. I recommend people subscribe, and I’ll share links to the pieces that we talked about. But thank you so much. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Carissa Justice on Voice & Craft

Carissa Justice [https://www.linkedin.com/in/carissa-justice-24928658/] is a copywriter, creative director in Atlanta. She is the founder of Nimble Creative [https://nimblebrand.co/], a brand studio focused on voice, naming, and storytelling. Her clients have included Google, Strava, Figma, and ThirdLove. She previously served as Verbal Lead at CharacterSF. In 2023 she founded The Subtext [https://thesubtextnewsletter.substack.com/], an online publication and community dedicated to elevating the craft of brand language. So I start all these conversations with the same question. You may or may not know this, but it’s a question I borrowed from a friend of mine who helps people tell their story. And it’s a big, beautiful question, which is why I ask it, but because it’s big and beautiful, I kind of over-explain it like I am doing right now. And so before I ask it, I really want you to know that you’re in total control and you can answer or not answer any way that you want to. And the question is, where do you come from? All right, I think I can start off with the more literal interpretation of that, which is born in Vermont, raised in Massachusetts, have lived all over South Carolina, Atlanta, California for 11 years, and then back to the South. But I think maybe the more emotional response or that might tell you a little bit more is I’m the youngest of three raised by divorced parents. My dad was like a conservative, Republican pharmaceutical salesman, and my mom’s like a super hippie, liberal animal lover, social worker. So I feel like I got raised by two different worlds, both people that I love dearly. And I think when I think about that question, it’s fun to think back on it, because I think when I grew up being the youngest, I had a brilliant older sister who was so smart, and then I had a really athletic older brother. So I feel like they had their things and I never really had my thing. So I did a lot of things and tried to blend in and be the peacemaker and be the kind of easy, and I don’t want to say easy kid, but always was like, I don’t know what I’m doing. I don’t know what I’m good at. So I’ll have fun along the way. And I think that that’s been a bit of a backdrop of my whole life. It’s doing different things and seeing what sticks and seeing what I like about it and not ever really knowing where I’m going, but trying to enjoy the ride as I go. Yeah, so much I want to ask about, I guess the first is really Vermont. What does it mean to you to be from Vermont? And are there moments when you feel particularly like a Vermonter? Yes, I feel like I love being a Vermonter. I only lived there until I was about five, but then my mom moved back up when I went to college. And so that’s always been like home base now for many, many years. It’s the most beautiful state. It’s so peaceful. I feel like there’s, you could zip me down the middle and half of me belongs like off-grid in the country riding horses and wandering in tall grass. And the other half belongs deep in a city in the grit and the grime with that rougher kind of hustle edge. And I feel like both feel right at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, where in Vermont were you when you were there? I was born in Brattleboro, but my mom has a farm up in Northeast Kingdom outside St. Johnsbury. That’s a beautiful place. She’s a 72 years old and still a competitive horseback rider. She has horses and cows and chickens and sheep and whole menagerie. Yeah. What did young Carissa want to be when she grew up? I wanted to be an in living color fly girl for a little bit. I wanted to be on SNL. I wanted to be, I don’t know. I think I was very influenced by whatever I was watching on TV. I think the only thing I knew in school that I was decent at was writing. So I think I always followed that because I was so, so tragically bad at math. Dumb, dumb at math. And science was really hard. So I was like, I guess it’s English for this girl all the way. But I don’t think I knew what I wanted at all. Can you tell a story about that? About, I guess the way writing showed up early for you? Yeah. Well, I think my mom was doing, went back to school when I was young. And got her master’s in social work. And so I feel like she was always writing papers and clacking away at the computer. So I think I saw her, she was very, I think she was quite the writer. Even, I think she really enjoyed that part of her studies. And so I think that infiltrated me a little bit. And then I was not the best test taker. I was really bad at memorization. And so I would revel at a paper project because I’d be able to do it in my own time. And so I think that was my only source of feeling like I was okay at school. So I think that, I remember writing papers and being like, oh, okay, I’ll at least get a B because I know I can nail this. And then if I mess everything else up, that’ll be my saving grace. So I think I found comfort in being pretty good with words. Yeah. I really identify with that, how painful, impossible math and science, they didn’t seem to enter my consciousness in any meaningful way at all. But words were very easy. Yeah. And I think, I didn’t know it at the time, but my grandfather was a copywriter and I didn’t even for a good part of his career. And my grandmother was like an editor and also a writer. And I think, I didn’t know, when you’re a kid, you don’t really dig into your lineage as much. But as I got older, I was like, oh, that’s so interesting. Because I always thought they were artists. My whole mom’s side, they’re so creative, so artistic, and there’s art everywhere. And it’s all done by people in the family. And so I always like, oh, they were artists, but they were actually writers. And they also happened to be really good at art. Wow. And so I think I’m probably lucky for what I was maybe given a bit naturally on that front. How did you come to discover that they were copywriters? Given what you’re doing now, that’s pretty beautiful. I think when I was in college, I was trying to figure out my major. I think my mom, I went to see my grandmother and cause I did all my internships in New York and I went and visited her. She lived outside of Westport, Connecticut. So I would take the train out to go see her and my mom met up with us and then I got to, they just started talking to me a lot more about her life. And I remember just being like, oh, wow. That’s so cool. But yeah, even in college though, I don’t think I knew, I didn’t know that copywriting was a thing. So- What were they doing? What kind of copywriting were they doing? So my grandfather did, he was the copywriter to the art director in advertising. So we worked for a local advertising firm and just pitched ideas to local companies. It’s funny, I just completely randomly ended up watching just because of the queue happened that way, watching the premiere of Mad Men. And so that whatever you’re bringing into this conversation, you just got all this imagery from that show. Have you watched it, the whole thing yet? Yeah, I watched it when it was- Yeah. So I hadn’t revisited it in a while and it was amazed at how good it felt to watch. I was a long time ago. I don’t even know when that premiered, but it’s beautiful. That first episode is amazing. They’re all so young, of course, but it’s amazing. It’s amazing show. I’ve watched it twice and the second time was even better because I think you have such a, I don’t know, you’re not waiting to see what happens, but you just get to see how good they play it out and the different storylines and the references. I don’t know. It’s such a genius show and Jon Hamm is my forever number one. Yeah. Yeah, he’s something else. Yeah, and it’s funny, even in that first episode, not to get to derail a little bit, but they have a researcher, it’d be selfishly, there’s a researcher that comes in and they’re trying to pitch the tobacco client and they have this woman with a German accent come and represent Freudian insights into the behavior. And Don Draper is like, “What the f**k?” They’re all like, “What are you talking about? That’s insane.” They ridicule her for bringing this psychological insight into the conversation. That’s pretty funny. That is funny. Did you feel a little bit hurt in that moment? No, I think I’ve been around long enough to know that everything’s true all at once. You know what I mean? We all hold different things with a different level of need or attachment, I think. And so, he’s as right as she is in a way. And the solution he comes up with, toasted. You know what I mean? It’s the Lucky Strike thing where he sort of, he avoids, the creative solution is avoiding the psychological conversation entirely and coming up with something brilliant. Yeah. It’s cool. It’s really cool. Anyway, so now, where are you now? Catch us up. Where do you live? What are you doing? What are you up to? I live in Atlanta, Georgia. I moved here in 2021 and it’s wonderful. I run my own branding studio and I’ve had it for about nine years. I have a business partner who’s wonderful and a small team and we do strategic branding. So, the crux of the type of work we do is around articulation. And so, clients come to us when the biggest need is articulating value or particular technology or challenge. So, while we do full-scale branding design strategy and even executions around websites or packaging or whatever, I think what our sweet spot is is around finding the right words, finding the right language to articulate something that’s tough to explain. So, because of that, we work with a lot of emerging tech or work with bigger companies navigating, whether it’s a pivot or a change in their business or an expanded set of customers, it’s like, okay, how do we get from here to there and make it make sense and understandable to people? So, that work is very custom fit for the things I like to do and the challenges I like. And then on the other side, I started a publication called The Subtext, which is about elevating the craft of writing and strategy within the branding and marketing world. And that was started selfishly because I was sort of feeling down and disillusioned about the state of the industry and how many awards and publications were talking about logos and design and advertising and no one was showcasing and talking about the other brilliant people that are in the work. And so, our community is mostly made up of strategists, namers, writers, researchers, but also designers and marketers and business folks that believe in the power of language and its role. So, those are sort of my two avenues. And then personally, I have two boys, 10 and six, and that’s also a big part of my life. I wanna talk about, well, two things, the word, articulate. You seem like the right person to ask about that word. You’ve used it a bunch of times. And I remember when I was coming up, my mentor, our project objective was always to explore, understand and articulate the thing. And it was always very clear what that was. But the way you were using it made me curious about what that means to you. What does it mean to articulate something? So, to me, it means, I think you can’t articulate something until you understand it. And so, I think a big part of the work that we do is trying to get our arms wrapped around our clients’ challenge. And that’s through a lot of conversation, research, diving deep into their world. And then, I always think it’s like untying a tangled up knot of, because there’s so many things you can say, but articulation is about finding the things that hold the most value and understanding. So, to me, I think articulation is a process of crafting, you know? I love that you were talking about the subtext as coming out of maybe a little bit of frustration with how, and I think this is a fair assessment, how verbal creativity is maybe undervalued as opposed to visual creativity in the world of brand and marketing. Is that a fair description? Yes, yes. So, what is the role? How might we properly respect verbal creativity in the role of brand building? Pay us. No, I’m just kidding. Pay us, hire us. No, I think it’s not about, to me, it’s about getting a seat at the table with the other disciplines. So, it’s not about one being more important than the other, but I think to talk about a rebrand project, for example, and go into every detail of their identity around motion, logo, typography, color, and to then not discuss all the words and ideas that underpin that brand, it feels like a one-sided conversation that didn’t encompass so much of the work. And so, that’s where my frustration started, which is even as a studio owner, I’d be well, I wanna submit work, but I don’t wanna talk about the logo. And honestly, the hardest part of what we did was figuring out the positioning of this company. And so, I think there is a challenge that I do understand about elevating the other side of the work, which is strategy is often feeling quite proprietary or secret or something that a lot of companies don’t necessarily want to externally promote or show. But I think when you’re talking about the language that shows up within brands, whether that’s not in ads, but on your website or even internally, the types of the way that you articulate what you do, I think is as important within your brand presence as a logo or a color palette. So, I think it’s about finding parody and game recognizing game on both sides. And I feel like we started to, I don’t know, I feel like there’s been a bit of a change within the industry where I think people are realizing how important strategy and writing is, especially in the dawn of, or I guess the hyper cycle of AI that we’re in. So many disciplines, a lot of things that people have been precious about are sort of changing a bit. And I think what comes out of it is what is the idea? What is the real story that we wanna tell? And then how do we do that in the best possible way? I think has started to rise to the top, at least in my mind. I don’t think that the subtext is responsible for that, but I think that it’s a good way for us to ride. Yeah. Yeah, well, how has that changed the role of, or the need for more verbal clarity? I mean, I guess you’re taught there’s two things too. There’s this idea that strategy is words, right? It’s being very clear and disciplined about the language you use and positioning. It’s all pretty much a linguistic exercise. Totally. And then there’s also, then there’s the verbal, there’s the creative side of the language on the creative side. How has the role of that changed? And I’m totally naive on this, in the different media environments we’re in, is it more important to have a clear verbal identity and how do you help clients understand what it can do for them? I think what’s changed is that there was such a focus for so long on, I think what happened was brand became obvious, the way that your company looks can impact the success of it, right? The Nike, the Airbnbs, the big businesses that showed that high design, high craft, high intention can move the market in your favor. But then I think what happened was, everyone went through a design exercise and a brand exercise, and then it wasn’t there wasn’t all these brands that hadn’t been touched or they looked outdated. It was sort of everybody got to a similar aesthetic level, even in B2B now. I mean, the rules are so different. So I think when you think about branding, it’s not it needs to look cool or it’s an aesthetic exercise, but it’s the market is so noisy. There’s so much competition. AI makes it so much easier to start companies, to compete quicker, that understand, crafting a clear and compelling story that people wanna choose you over somebody else. I think is the thing that’s changed. That I think the value of that, I think has gone up. Yeah. What do you love about the work? Where’s the joy in it for you? I think it starts with people. I love working with clients and I love working with my team and collaborators. I think the start of a project, it has so much energy. I love that feeling of being terrified, being oh God, what did I say I would do? I don’t know if I could do it. Yeah, this is the high of winning a project and then the low of being okay, now I gotta do all this stuff that I said I would do. But I think the working with people is always my favorite part. And then I think that over the years it’s changed. I used to love writing, I would love a manifesto or I’d love to give people goosebumps in a meeting or try to crack the perfect sort of line that would rally everybody and get them excited. And now I feel like my joy comes from the wayfinding through it. I think the positioning part is, it used to make me too nervous to enjoy it. And now I think I’ve done it. I’ve gotten my reps in enough to where I think the strategy is more fun because it is, it feels like the most rewarding once you get to the other side. Yeah. How do you think or talk about, was sort of kept, caught by what you just described, the wayfinding until you get to the right place. How do you think or talk about what a good brand needs to be or a good positioning needs to be? I think it’s different depending on industries, but I think in my view, I think we are moving away. I don’t think it’s about finding white space or finding what somebody else isn’t doing. I think it’s about looking deeply at what you’re doing and what you have and what makes it special and trying to pull that out in the most compelling way. Because you can find white space or do all this research and say, this is what customers want. But if that’s not the business you have, that’s not that helpful. Because I don’t, there’s definitely been times where we, our strategy influences business significantly, but there’s only so much businesses can do, right? They have to build off their strengths. So I think that to me is the wayfinding is where are the strengths and how can we make sure that those are amplified and the business can then prop those up. And then how can we build the story around that, that makes it feel like the most desirable thing that people want. What’s the role, if any, that sort of qualitative plays or research plays? Let’s say research plays and then if it plays a role qualitative within it. I think it, ideally I wish it played a role always. I think the hard part about research is that it takes time and money and increasingly clients don’t wanna wait. I feel like branding is one of those things where after they’ve exhausted every other business conversation or sales solution or whatever, they’re finally okay, I guess we do need to think about this from a brand lens. And then they’re at that point behind the eight ball it often feels like. And they’re we needed this yesterday. And it frustrates me to no end because I think, well, you’ve already waited this long, you’ve already waited too long and now you wanna rush through it. But I think with that aside, I think research can do a lot. I think if you have an active customer base, if you have more of a mature product, I think research comes in from figuring out how people are using something or engaging with something, or what are they loving or what are their hate about it or why they didn’t want it to change. So I think research can be helpful on that end. And then on a newer business, I think research is important on the cultural side of things. What is this business, what gap is this business gonna fill or what need are we trying to serve or what moment are we building on in culture or in the country or the economy? How can we do our work in terms of research and sort of figuring out the context of the business? But it depends on whether it’s new or mature, I guess. Yeah, and how would you describe the way that you learn culturally or you’ve got a project or a client, you have a, maybe you don’t have a way, but I’m curious, how do you feel like you learn? That’s a great question. I don’t know if I’ve thought about this that much. I’m very your classic ADD brain where I have a million tabs open. Usually when I start a project, I read as much as I can haphazardly. I don’t stick to, I don’t have a well-oiled machine brain where it’s I do this and then I do this and then I do this. But I think I try to get, I try to read what I can about the business from what they’re saying. And we often get a lot of documents and then I try to zoom out and be okay, what is everybody else saying about this? And does it feel incongruent with what they’re saying? So I think so much of my days is reading and wandering around the internet for information. Now I do a good amount of research and wayfinding with certain AI tools like Notebook LLM or Clod, but I can only get you so far. Cause I don’t, I can’t, a synthesis is helpful, but you have to get it in your brain first. So it makes the tidy recaps easier, but I still need to look at all this stuff. Can we say more about that. You drew a distinction between getting a synthesis from Clod or Notebook LLM, I guess, versus getting it in your brain is what you said. What are you pointing at? Well, I think that there’s a misconception that if you can do research through AI and it just accelerates the process, I think it accelerates the synthesis of it in some ways, because you can do, I need to still read the things. I can’t just get a recap of all the things. Because then I, especially as somebody who’s taking more of maybe a heightened approach to language, I need to see what they’re saying in their docs. I can’t get a recap of it. I need to see the language they’re using. Why? So I, because that’s often a big part of our mandate is to be intentional with the language and see what’s working and what’s not and how we would shift it. So if I get a truncated output from an AI, I won’t actually, that’s not actually that helpful to me. Again, I think when I synthesize my findings, if I agree with what some of the things that I’m using, then I’m great. Yeah, I agree with that. But other things I feel like I have to work through on my own. Yeah. I mean, I didn’t, I was very curious about that. I mean, because I feel like this line between what we ask or allow AI to do for us and what we do for ourselves is, we’ve been thrown in this very weird situation where we can allow it to do quite a bit and it will do whatever we ask it to do very easily. So it’s not gonna defend those boundaries. So I’m gonna have to defend the boundaries between what I do. Have you found that to be the case or what broadly, how do you feel about, or I guess what’s your experience been incorporating these AI tools into your process? I think it’s been a mixed bag. I think from a research standpoint, I find it incredibly helpful because I don’t find that I have the most organized brain when it comes to, I feel like I’m often overwhelmed by the amount of documentation that we’re given. So because I can house it in something like a notebook LLM, which is essentially like a closed portal, you can add certain things to a project and then it only, you can query it. And it only takes from the documents within this portal, which is nice. Because then it’s not like it’s taking from all of the internet and you’re what, where did you get that? And I like to be able to search within the information I’ve been given for answers, especially when I want to find something specific or get a specific quote. In some ways, I think it’s definitely made parts of the process more efficient and gives you easier ways of accessing the material. In other ways, I feel like I really like it when you get more to the execution standpoint, you always have to feed it your idea. I think if you want it to give you an idea, I don’t think it’s good. I’m thinking more about ChatGPT or even Claude. It’s I feel like I have to have a point of view. And then once I have it, I think it’s helpful. Sometimes it’s helpful in the sense where I’ll be give it a rough draft and then it gives me something back and I have even deeper conviction over it not being right. And then I’m okay, why? Now I know what more of, I feel more convicted now that I see somebody else try to play this out. And then other times I’m sweet. I like some of that. I can build off that. And I don’t feel like it’s ever a linear thing. It either fight with it or it feels like it’s giving the work a boost. I dug around a little bit in stuff you’ve written before. And I wanted to maybe shift. Oh, I guess I’m curious about, before I get into that, when did you first discover that you could make a living doing this? Do you have a recollection of really encountering this as a jobby job? A jobby job. Yeah. I mean, I had a very circuitous path. I was an assistant sports editor, my college paper. So I made a little bit of money doing that. I only knew journalism was a thing. I didn’t really know you could be a copywriter. I knew you could do advertising, but I didn’t know there was another side of being a copywriter, which is more like a brand writer. So when I got out of college, I did wanted to be a sports writer. And then that was weird. And then I wanted to be a music writer. Anyways, I wrote about a lot of different things that I was interested in, made a little bit of money, but not much. I was actually convinced for a while that I wouldn’t make money at it. So I became a massage therapist. So I had a different, a day job. So I could take on all these really poorly paid writing jobs. And that’s how I got my first job. That’s how I ended up moving to San Francisco. I made money, more money doing that for a few years and took on really crappy writing jobs, but they got me a foot in the door. And eventually I got my first big gig at Shutterfly as a full-time in-house copywriter. And I made so much money at the time. I mean, it wasn’t so much money, but to me it was so much money. And that was my big aha moment that it was oh, this is made for me. Nice. And you talk about voice and some of your, how do you talk to clients about voice and what makes a good voice, what it means? I think my opinion has changed over the years on voice. I definitely think voice is important. I think it, but I think what it used to be was having it feel unique and ownable and consistent so that people could understand, see something and know it was you because you had created this vibe and a way of articulating what you do that felt recognizable. To me, that’s what voice used to be and still is in a large part. But I think to me, voice comes all back to strategy. And to me, I think more about what is your point of view? What do you believe that others don’t? And what is your unique take on your industry or the value you deliver? I think once you have that, which is to me the harder nut to crack, how you then express it should feel a little bit more obvious. And I used to really beat the drum of consistency around voice, but I think it’s such a different world. Brands have to constantly be evolving and moving. So I focus a little bit less on consistency as opposed to trying to really focus on what you do best and what your point of view is and making sure that’s coming through as opposed to cleverness or pithiness. Yeah. What are the examples of brands that have done this really, really well? And I’m thinking for whatever reason, maybe when we were talking about the visual branding versus verbal branding of the great blandification of visual identities. And maybe you were talking about a little bit of the consistency that there’s been a homogenization on some level of brand identity. I think we’ve come out of that quite strongly, but what examples are there of brands using voice really powerfully and strategically? Well, there’s so many. I think, I mean, I think people love to talk about the big ones because they were what started, I think, the drive towards having a really ownable voice. People still imitate Apple all the time for good reason. They really birth the crisp and clever headline. They use punctuation with such impact that I think that still reverberates today. And then you have the really chest beating, feel it in your heart, Nike anthematic kind of voice that can flex in so many different ways for all their different product lines, but you still feel it’s Nike. And then you have Volkswagen just always has this pulls at your heartstrings, reminds you why safety matters. It’s this really engaging, but emotional storytelling that I think has really been consistent and really well done over the years. So this is the big ones that come to mind, but then there’s really cool, even brands like Twitch, right? They speak in the language of gaming, right? And they get their user. And so they’re not polished lines or it doesn’t feel as much like marketing as it feels more like something you would read within a Discord channel or something. So I think, and WhatsApp does a pretty good job of that too, speaking within the vernacular of their product and within their customer base. Or there’s really beautiful, Alison, who’s in exposure therapy to this beautiful brand with her studio, Forner, where she works. It was called Uma and it was mushrooms or something, but it was so drippy and sexy and every sentence just felt seductive and you wanted to try it. And it just, I don’t know, there was something so beautiful about it. I always think when I see stuff, my first litmus test is if I feel a pang of jealousy that I didn’t write it. So stuff like that, I just think there’s so many, there’s so many great voices. And then people love Duolingo because mostly because their social voice, which is actually quite different than what you see in their product, which is quite functional actually. But they have this sort of caricature and this mascot that has permission to do things their own way. And I think it just adds a bit of a fun foil to that brand that builds on the storytelling and the voice in cool ways. Anyways, I could probably go way too long. I could do a whole hour on just talking about examples, but there’s so many. And I think it shows that I think people understand it. And it’s, I just talked to a writer named Nick Parker for the subtext, who’s a sage when it comes to voice. And we were both agreeing that it used to be that we’d have to try to convince clients that voice mattered. And we’re post that. I think clients get it because you see it out in the world. If you don’t have something, if you’re not saying something in an interesting way and you’re not getting attention, it’s such a waste of money. And it’s such a waste of money and airspace to be boring or bland. So it’s sort of, the problem isn’t trying to sell it now. It’s more, oh, there’s a lot of good stuff out there. So yeah. Well, that’s great. I was gonna ask that question about how, I guess selling it into clients. What do you think explains or how do you, yeah, how do you explain that shift? Is it just hyper-competition? Is it a very banal explanation like that? Or what changed? I think it’s, now it’s, I think it’s about reminding clients, you have to explain what you do. So you might as well do it well, right? You might as well have, really understand what you do. And it’s amazing how many projects I get where they really don’t know how to talk about what they do. And they’re not even really sure what’s most important. They have a list of features. They have a list of things that their service or product does, but they don’t actually know why or what it’s helping. And so I think to me, it’s really about reminding clients and doing a bit of that therapy around, nobody needs this feature. What do they need? What, why, or why would they need that feature? Or what does that help them do? And I think what you get is a lot of what you see today, which is to give you more time back in your day so you can get back to doing what you love. So you can, AI powered blank, so you can do more of this other thing. And it’s such a bizarre argument or more seamless, blah, blah, blah. And it’s really, it’s a lot of words to say nothing. And so getting clients to cut that s**t and be, we have a few words here. Can we say something that actually gets us somewhere without saying nothing? And I think it’s really around the inability to commit. They don’t wanna commit. They wanna be, they don’t wanna pick a lane cause they’re all in one. They do everything. Oh yes, yes. That’s the biggest issue. I have two quotes that I always, I’ve probably bored you with before and I’m sure you have counted them just that you’ve brought up that make me think of. One is that the biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has occurred. Have you ever heard that? Yeah, I love that. That’s so great. That one and then what you’re talking about too is this woman, Fiona McNae, who ran, I think it was called Space Doctors, a semiotics outfit in the UK. And she has a TED Talk. And the title is taking responsibility for being understood. And I quote that line all the time because we never, we so rarely do it. Do you know what I mean? We so rarely actually do take responsibility for making sure that things that we say are actually understood by whoever’s on the other side of it. A hundred percent. I mean, I haven’t heard either of those and they’re amazing. I should pocket them and use them myself because I think it does, it’s shocking how little is communicated in all of these communications. It’s more about obfuscation and not taking responsibility or not promising too much, but also promising way too much. The willingness to promise that you’re bettering the world, but not promise that you’re gonna do something X times faster or it’s pretty interesting to see. And I think that that’s part of the legal landscape that we find ourselves in. It’s part of the marketing landscape we find ourselves in. I think also the hardest part is what gets somebody’s attention is often not what helps people understand something. And so I think we often have to think about those in different ways. So an advertising moment deserves a bit of a different brief, right? As it should, which is, there’s so much coming at people. What’s gonna make somebody be, what? What’s that? And then click on it. But then the responsibility really does need to be there around, this is what we do. And this is what you’re buying. That I feel is the part that, yeah, that I think it’s nuanced. And I think a lot of people wanna simplify it because they are just, no, just, this is what we say. And that’s what we do. But it needs to be a lot more layered than that. This last question, cause we’ve sort of coming into the end of time. And it reminds me of a conversation I had here with Grant McCracken, who’s a cultural anthropologist guy. And he makes this really, I mean, all of his arguments are very compelling but enthusiastic. But this idea that brands, he talks about multiplicity. That we came up, I came up in a time when brand was consistency was the thing, and it was a pattern and just all this stuff. And we’re just in a totally different landscape now. And brands can be a whole host of different things in different contexts. And there’s so much freedom in terms of how brands can show up in the world. And you talked about social voice versus product voice. And I’m just wondering, how do you think about the idea of multiplicity as it relates to brand and brand voice? Yeah, I mean, I think I agree with him in the sense that, yeah, I don’t think it’s about consistency. I don’t think it’s about following your brand guidelines. I don’t think it’s about saying the same thing over and over again until the market understands it. I think it’s about multiple things. So it’s what is true? What is unique to you? What is your very specific point of view? And then what’s contextual, right? So what is happening that you can speak to? And I think that’s the part that deserves that sort of ongoing negotiation around language. There are things that shouldn’t change a lot around that, what we do and why we do it and what we believe, they can be deepened over time, they can be expanded over time, but there should be some sort of core thing to hold on to, but everything else needs to be very much willing to react and excite in new ways. And I think it just depends on what you need it to be. Do you need it to be something that somebody can’t live without or do you need it to be something that somebody desires? Depending on the industry, those two things are different. And so they require different ways of showing up. And then I think if you’re not responding to the world and what’s happening and whether that’s in your market or within your industry or within culture, you’re just missing such an important layer of communications. Multiplicity. Layered, nuanced. More words. Any other buzzwords we can get in? Synthesis. Teresa, thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for having me. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Nazy Farkondeh on Identity & Antithesis

Nazy Farkhondeh [https://www.linkedin.com/in/nazy-farkhondeh-84074033/] is a Brooklyn-based writer and brand strategist working freelance. She previously held positions at Reed Words, Trollbäck+Company, and VICE Media, where her work earned two Clio Awards. She has also worked with Interbrand, served as a D&AD Writing for Design judge, and holds a BA in Communications from the University of Michigan. So I start all these conversations, and I’m not sure if you know this or not, but I start all the conversations with the same question, which is a question that I borrowed from a friend of mine. She’s a neighbor too. She helps people tell their story. And I stole this question from her because it’s big and beautiful. It’s a great way to enter into a conversation. But it’s really big, so I over-explain it the way that I am right now. So before I ask it, I want you to know that you’re in total control and you can answer or not answer any way that you want to. This is probably the biggest lead-up to a question ever. But the question is, where do you come from? And again, you’re in total control. Okay, cool. Yeah, that was a big lead-up because I already know this question and have thought about how I’m going to answer it. But thought a little bit about how I’m going to answer it, because I do love this question, and I think it can be digested in so many different ways. But yeah, I think I have two answers. The first is, I say I’m from Los Angeles, and I really mean that in the from and to sense. I feel like where I am now is the result of growing up in LA and trying to be the antithesis of that. I always felt so restless there. Everything felt so artificial to me, like the weather, the people. And I don’t know if it was home, but I had this feeling of entrapment growing up there. And my family moved around a lot because my dad was an architect for LA Unified School District. So we moved around based off of what project he was working on. And I never felt happy there. I always felt bored. I always felt stuck. Everything felt really monotonous. And it was supposed to be this really exciting place that everybody wanted to be. And I didn’t feel that. And I moved back there after college because I wanted to work in the film industry. And I did work in the film industry for a little, and that quickly made me realize, wow, I really don’t want to work in this industry. And so coming to New York, I live in New York City now, and I’ve been here for almost 10 years. And it feels like a huge breath of fresh air. I really feel like an East Coast person. And I don’t know why. I think it’s the seasons. And there’s more texture that you experience on the East Coast, I feel like, you don’t get on the West Coast. And so, yeah, I really, in terms of where I’m from, I really think of that as like, that’s where I’m from. And that was a before. And then I think the second answer to the question obviously is, my family’s, I’m first generation, but my family’s from Iran. And that’s something that as I get older, I feel more and more removed from because the relatives that I have there have all passed. And I haven’t been there since I was 17, and it’s not really safe to go there right now. So hopefully it is one day. And so I think I like to acknowledge that because the older I get, the more removed I feel from it, and especially what’s happening in the country right now. It’s, I, as I get older, I feel more compelled to honor that. What is that? How do you notice that, the remove? I thought that’s an interesting way of talking about it. You feel yourself removed, feel at a remove from this thing, even as you’re sort of acknowledging it. Is there something, can you tell me a story about that? Like, how does that happen? Yeah, I think, honestly, I think it really hit me in the face when I got married, and me and my husband started talking about family planning, it, I really realized, I was like, oh, wow, this is gonna die with me if I don’t try to carry it forward. And, and I think being first generation, or being born here, and I think my, my family was, my mom and dad were born in Iran, and came here when everybody else came here during the early 80s during the revolution. It was such a stark departure. And only being one generation removed from it, I feel so removed from it. And I think getting married is the thing that made me realize how removed from it I feel. And I have one aunt that still, I have some aunts and uncles that are still around and not being able to carry a conversation with them in Farsi, when I was able to do that as a kid, was very jarring. So I started taking Farsi lessons again as an adult. So I’m trying to figure out ways to incorporate and honor that more as I get older. And I feel like a responsibility and also this intense desire to do that because it’s so much a part of where I’m from. It’s not like my family was from there generations ago. It was literally the generation before. Yeah. To what degree did it play a part in your childhood? I think as a child, I was trying to get away from it as much as possible. I grew up wanting to blend in and be white. If that, and I still don’t even know if I’m like the, whether or not Middle Eastern people are white is something that’s very unclear. I’m still very unclear about it. But yeah. But again, growing up in LA, I wanted to blend in and I wanted to not stand out. And I was a little bit, and I hate admitting this, but I guess ashamed of my background and wanted to be as American as possible. And now that time has gone on and I’m like, Ooh, America is not that great. I’m like, why did I do that? So I think, yeah, I think it’s a combination of age, maturity, and political circumstances, obviously seeing my people get continuously, for lack of a better word, massacred by their own government and their tenacity and drive and grit and courage and all of that makes me really proud the older I get. And so I feel more compelled to be in touch with that side of myself because I think it’s really important. You mentioned it a little bit, but I always ask this question of what did you want to be when you grew up? I’m thinking of a Nazli in monotonous California, artificial California weather. What did you want to be when she grew up? Yeah. I wanted to be an archaeologist really bad. I think I saw Jurassic Park and talk about novelty. I think that was the ultimate form of novelty. And then, and I was always interested in animals and nature and other worldly things. And I think that’s something that faded as I got older. And I think I’m rediscovering now as an adult, we mentioned before we started this call that my honeymoon was back country snowboarding in the French Alps with my husband. So looking for out of this world experiences. And then when I got a little older, I wanted to be a screenwriter. I was always a writer and growing up in LA that seemed like a natural extension of writing, being surrounded by the film industry and then working in the film industry for a year after college. I quickly realized, this was pre Harvey Weinstein as well. So it ruined the magic of movies for me. And I was in an environment where I was working for an independent producer and I was like, okay, I can be this person’s slave for 10 years making $20,000 a year only to become this person. I don’t want to be this person. And so that dream died, and then also seeing the level of disregard and the lack of consideration, all these screenwriters put so much time and love and effort and sacrifice, sacrifice everything to write these stories. And they, before they even go to anybody important, they go across an intern’s desk. And depending on how the intern is feeling that day and may or may not go up to their boss. And, and honestly, anybody can read a script, but seeing the interns and the people that I was with, it’s like, some people were there. It’s like, they weren’t that passionate about film. And I was like, wow, these scripts are being read by unqualified people. The people writing these scripts know way more about movies and good writing than the people reading on them and passing judgment on them. And so I think that quickly shook any desire I had to be in that world. Yeah. I love what you said about, I thought it was interesting that the, oh, an archeologist. So who was an archeologist in your mind? No one. I think I saw it. I watched Jurassic Park and I was like, that looks really cool. I want to be somewhere that feels so removed from the world, finding something extraordinary. I think there was literally no model. I think watching Discovery Channel and that was it. I was like, I want to be there doing that. So catch us up. Where are you now? And what are you doing? I am a freelance strategist and writer. I hate using the word copywriter cause I feel like it’s so reductive. And especially now with AI, it’s like, people think of copywriter as headlines or web copy or the executional stuff. And I never wanted to fit myself in that box because I think of language a lot more holistically. And I think of language a lot more strategically. And so I always say that I’m in this middle area between writer and strategist. I’m not a full blown ethnographer. I’m not a business strategist. And then I do copyright, but that’s the last stage of the work that I’m doing. I always, I don’t know. I think good thinking is good writing and good writing is good thinking. You can’t really separate the two. And so so yeah, so my work has been at the intersection of where these two disciplines live. Sometimes I do brand positioning work, research and positioning work. And then sometimes I’m developing a tone of voice for a brand and then executing that across platforms. So my work lies in that spectrum. When did you first discover you could make a living doing this? It was really by accident. My career was so windy and it felt so nonlinear at the time. But now looking back, I think it does make sense. I told you I wanted to work in film. And at the time it was 2013. So it was the new golden age of television where other cable networks outside of HBO and Showtime were creating very premium and prestige shows. So television was having this revival. And I was, and I was working in film development and I was like, well, let me go to a TV network. There’s, it’s going to be a little bit more corporate. There’s going to be more fluidity and ascension in terms of how you move about the company. There’s going to be more of a ladder up to growth. And so I randomly found this program through this organization called Pro Max. I think they’re still around, but it’s basically an organization within the entertainment marketing space. And it’s a space that people normally fall into when you think of the 30 second promo spot, the trailer for the trailer for a TV show that’s playing within linear TV airtime. And that’s not a career that people seek out. It’s something that people fall into. And so this program was designed to help people become, the term at the time was predator. It’s producer, writer, editor. So the people that write those, yeah, I know it’s so specific. And so I found this program and I was like, well, I’ve always been interested in advertising. And this seems like a great way to get into a TV network because the program, it was a certificate program. And the teachers were people that were executives at the Fox’s and the ABCs and the Disney’s. And so I was like, I don’t even remember how I stumbled across it. I think my older sister was dating the guy who was the president of this company at the time. Random and I just needed a change. I was fine, I’ll do it. I did this program and got great exposure to all of these heads of marketing at brand at these big, big networks. I got a job while I was in that program at the small TV network called Pivot. It was participant media. It was their TV network. I got a job in the creative services department, logging footage for on-air promos, writing scripts, doing treatments for branded content and interstitials when advertisers wanted to come and advertise on the TV channel. Then it was the rise of streaming was happening simultaneously. I freaked out and I was oh, well on-air promos are going to die because TV channels aren’t going to exist anymore. I freaked out and I was I just need to go into marketing, larger marketing. I want to be a marketing executive. I transitioned into just the marketing department there for the TV channel. Then that the TV network went under and I got a job opportunity. That was a dream job opportunity, the opportunity at the time to go help launch Viceland, the Vices TV channel in New York. I was 25 and it was just a dream job opportunity, moved to New York and go launch this really cool thing. I think that was my first big exposure to the power of brand. I don’t know if you remember what OG Viceland was like, but the entire viewing experience on the channel was branded. Most of their, I think 50% of their commercial time was filled with their own interstitial content. Watching Viceland felt like you were transported into this whole other universe. It really didn’t feel like a traditional linear TV channel. It felt like this whole other branded viewing experience. I was there for a while working on the consumer brand side of things, doing a lot of program and marketing strategy for the individual shows and the channel as well. It was a lot of events. Traveling to Art Basel and South by Southwest and Comic-Con and throwing these really insane parties. This was at peak Vice time, I think before it started going downhill. Anyways, it was my first big exposure to the power of brand and how powerful a brand really could be. I mean, everybody was trying to emulate Vice at the time. Over time and vice had a really big creative department. The TV channel had a really big creative department. I think it was a 50 person creative team doing stuff exclusively for the TV channel, not revenue generating content, but just branded content that lived on the channel that created the Viceland experience. I was very intrigued by that. I also just, having gone through the producer, writer, editor career trajectory, I was oh, it would be cool to be on the creative services team here. But I was in, but I had already transitioned into marketing. I was on the marketing team. But then as you know, they started doing cuts and restructuring and it was just five constant years of that. I got to make my job what I wanted it to be. I became close to the creative director there and he let me write and produce some spots for the channel. Then I started doing a lot of RFP work for advertisers. I just slowly started building up a creative portfolio. I knew at that point, I was I don’t want to work on in media anymore. I want to go to the agency side. I think at that point, people were usually doing the opposite. They were working at an agency and then going to the brand side. But I wanted to go work at an ad agency and explore the quote unquote creative route. After a while at vice, I landed at a branding studio called troll back and company, which was my first quote unquote agency job, although they didn’t call themselves an agency. They specialized in entertainment rebrands. Because I had an entertainment background, it aligned quite well. That’s when I realized, oh, writing and strategy is a thing. Brand strategy and brand writing is a discipline. Then, grew from there. I just got, I was there for a while and then got another job at this company called breed words, which was exclusively brand strategy and copywriting. Then from there started freelancing and yeah, that was a very long winded way. We got the whole, we got the whole arc, the whole arc of your professional journey. I wanted to, I was really tempted to interrupt, but this encounter you had with the Viceland where you just said, you know, why you just, it was your first encounter with brand. I was really curious about that. What did that mean to you? What did you see or what, I guess, what did you learn about brand in that move into Viceland? It was such a special time and a special entity, right? What is brand or what did you discover about brand in that moment? I think, I wish you did interrupt me so I didn’t go on such a long tangent, but I don’t know. I think it was something that felt really intangible. It was just this visceral feeling, the brand just had this je ne sais quoi. And it’s you didn’t know where it came from, but everybody was trying to emulate it. Everybody wanted to work there and it didn’t really. I think at the time, because there was nothing like vice before in terms of the journalism that was coming out of there, the brand was an organic extension of that. I hate to use the word authentic, but it felt very authentic to, they didn’t have to articulate who they were because they were just out there and they were doing it and they were creating all these shows and doing all this journalism about stuff on the fringes of society that nobody else was covering. Then I think as the brand evolved and nothing was articulated on a foundational level, it started falling apart. Instead of being relevant was trying to chase relevance or rest on their laurels of the things that they had done in the past. I think it was just a lesson in branding one-on-one of what makes a brand tick and what makes them authentic. Then I think a crash course and whatnot to do if you want to scale that brand over time. Yeah. What do you love about the work that you do? Where’s the joy in it for you? That’s a good question. I think about this a lot because I don’t know if I’m not, I think I’m passionate about the work, the work itself when it comes to the output and what I’m putting out in the world. I don’t care about it that much. I don’t think it’s that important. I mean, I hate to say that, but it’s true, but I think the process of the work and the things that it requires the curiosity and the thinking and the discovery and the simplification of complexity, all of that is just very intellectually stimulating for me. And it feels very gratifying. I think as somebody who always wanted to write and failed miserably to complete my own writing projects, whether it was a work of fiction or a short story or whatever, I struggled with that. I feel for some reason doing that process at work, I just find it much easier. I think it tickles the same parts of my brain that want to be activated when I seek out to do a personal project. But for some reason, the personal projects or torture the work projects or not. I always wished I could wish I could be that person. That’s oh, I have to create for myself. It’s my therapy, but I’ve never been able to be that person. I loved how you talked about language early on, and you’re very clear about living in between in this world, between writing and strategy and how words are related to the ideas and brand, I guess. I’d love to hear you talk more about your process in terms of the role that language plays. If that’s a too broad a question, I can narrow in. No, I mean, I think I’ll try to answer that. One of the first studio that I worked at had this mantra of discard everything that means nothing. I always appreciated that when it came to language. I think it’s the process of simplification is something that I constantly go back to. With language, it’s I just constantly asked myself, is this expression making things more complicated or less complicated? If I have to add some modifiers to get the point across, then the idea is probably not right. I think that I use the process of simplification in my writing a lot. I think that’s the thing that I enjoy about it is how do you capture the true essence of something, whether it’s a strategy or a voice persona or a campaign idea, if, how do you make it robust and rich in as few words as possible? I think that’s the challenge that’s the challenge that I live for. Yeah. What’s your, what do you, what do people come to you for? I feel like everybody’s got a little bit, at least in our minds, sort of the red phone. I mean, that’s an old, it’s an old Batman reference, but what’s the red phone for the work that you want to do? When do you want people calling you? What are the problems you love to solve? I mean, honestly, I’m still figuring that out. It’s been ongoing for me. I think only having done the freelance thing for a little bit over a year and just with the time that we’re in, it’s scary with all these agencies imploding and shutting down and the freelancer market getting more and more saturated and everybody wanting things done faster, cheaper, quality that you can’t have all three. Now people expect all three. It’s been hard to me to, it’s been hard for me to trust that I can be in a space where I can start to say no and cultivate the body of work that I want to do. I don’t know, I guess to answer your question, this is kind of sad to admit, I haven’t let, I haven’t allowed myself to get to that spot just because I don’t feel liberated enough to do that. I mean, I hopefully that changes. But I mean, I think right now it’s less about the type of work that I to do. It’s more about the stage in which a client is in when they need help that interests me the most. It’s usually when I’m a bigger fan of coming in, not necessarily when something is being built from scratch, and they’re trying to, and a brand is trying to be defined from scratch. I to come in at the moments where there’s a bunch of different factors. It’s okay, we have this foundation, but then we have this variable that’s happening in the background business wise. Then this is happening out in the world contextually and culture wise and we need to, but we also need to move this direction. It’s what is the answer? I think that that kind of work fulfills me more is the juggling of different variables to reach a certain outcome versus building something from scratch. I think it’s mostly just because when you’re building a brand from scratch, I did this recently and it’s, there’s many unknowns and usually you’re working with a founder that’s in a very early stage and they have a lot of anxiety. I find that, I find that the sky’s the limit can be kind of limiting. I think, I think the more, I think I think the more variables you’re playing with, the more creative that you can be and the more satisfying the work is. Yeah, I usually to come in at a point where a brand is trying to shift perception or change their personality a little bit, figure out how to be edgier, figure out how to be more playful, more whatever. Figuring out how to strategically implement that. That’s the work that I find most interesting. Yeah. What’s your process for learning? We all have our own sort of way of learning and what, how do you, how do you learn about, let’s say you get invited on a project in that condition, how do you begin to learn? Do you have a discovery process? What are the tools you use? I’m just always curious how people orient themselves within culture and within the brand in order to be, to do that kind of work. Yeah. I mean, I think I’m just patient with the materials. I know that sounds boring, but I spend a long time on discovery, just sitting with any relevant documents or research. You and I are both in exposure therapy. I’ll go back through that slack and see if there’s any relevant thinking or conversations within that, that industry or that discipline that I’ll go back to. I usually always start with, I think the first instincts that come to mind, I think the work we do is very instinctual and it’s this work is about the process is what leads you to the answer. It’s not you’re making a calculation and ending at point Z. It’s the, the insight is in the discovery and in the process. I’ll always write down some initial thoughts on, if let’s say I’m doing a strategy exercise, what is if I’m, and I need to write positioning, okay, what do I think the purpose of this brand is right now? And just kind of, as I’m going through discovery, just write simple articulations of that at various points in the discovery phase, and then kind of look back and see how it’s evolved. Usually I can, from the way the articulation is evolving, I can kind of gain an insight as to okay, in how the discovery is evolving. It’s if it’s trending a certain way, then I can kind of gauge okay, this, this path is telling me something about where, where it needs to end up. Yeah. What do you, or what role, if any, does, I’m always interested in getting into a conversation about qualitative and face-to-face discovery and if it plays a role for you or not, and what role does it play in your work and what value does it bring? I mean, I think it’s the most valuable thing. I mean, you can only gain much from looking at old positioning documents and messaging A-B testing and things like that. That’s great. But I don’t know. I find that mostly when people are on the client side of this work, they’re just, they’re managing many different factors and variables. They’re just trying, they’re just looking for somebody to make sense of the things that they’re thinking. Qualitative plays a huge role because the answers are usually already there and what they’re, and what they’re, when, what they’re talking about. I, and I want to get, it’s something that I’m always trying to get better at is how do I design the most insightful questions. It’s something that I’m always trying to get better at rather than just regular stakeholder questions. Just I’m trying to always get better at how to architect those questions. I’d love to learn from you too, because I know that that’s the core, the core of what you do. But I always do, I find the best work always comes when there’s at least some interview sessions being done with the client. Otherwise it’s just, you’re just, otherwise, I don’t know, the work feels, can feel a little soulless and I always to be reminded that I’m helping a human out. It just makes the work more gratifying. I think I, I to be oriented in that this work is helping out a human, not just a business. I think qualitative plays a huge role in that. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a beautiful, I mean, yes. Questions. Let’s talk about questions. What’s, when you’re thinking about better questions or having better questions, what are you thinking about? Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. I’d love to ask you that because you have more experience with it than I do. But yeah, I think I’m always trying to find, going back to a branding exercise, let’s say we need to articulate what a certain brand is in a traditional positioning sense. I think trying to uncover the spirit of the brand beyond general adjectives. I think a lot of times, trying to uncover the nuances that actually make it different. I feel like a lot of times in positioning work or honestly in voice work, especially tone of voice work, always go back to the same adjectives. We want to sound human. We want to sound authoritative. We want to be clear. And it’s like, that’s not a unique brand. That’s a good brand and that’s good copywriting. So I’m always trying to figure out, okay, what makes a, what’s the difference between, let’s go to copywriting for a second. What makes, what’s good copywriting and what’s distinct copywriting. And I think trying to figure out, trying to uncover the nuances that get to that distinction. That’s what I’m always trying to uncover in my questions. And I find it, I always find it very challenging. So I’d love to hear from you about how you get there. Well, I mean, I identify completely and I feel like that’s the whole thing, isn’t it? You know what I mean? Both the idea that there’s some perfect question that’s going to unlock something and the hunger to get into a space where you’re discovering something. I mean, I feel like that’s the whole attraction to the work, right? So I’m identifying with you that that’s, I feel the exact same thing. I think a lot about questions of course, but it lands right on top of what you said about the process, that the strategy is in the process. You don’t calculate your way through. You get lost, you have to get lost in something that’s not you in order to find, discover whatever is going to be discovered. And I think that, I think of that at the level of conversation is true too. And I remember somebody correcting me on this. I remember being like, what are your questions that you love? And they were like, well, I don’t know. I mean, it’s not really the question. It’s whatever’s happening, you know, between me and the person I’m talking to. Maybe it’s not the question. Maybe it’s my facial expression. Maybe it’s, right. Maybe it’s the weather. I don’t, you know what I mean? It’s stuff there that we have no idea about. Yeah. That’s why I love being in an interview. When someone goes on a tangent, I love it. I’m like, keep going. Keep talking. I think that’s, I mean, unless they’re going completely off the rails, obviously you have to direct them back a little bit, but I find the most insightful insights when people start talking about something and then they can’t stop talking about it. And going back to the process, I think this is what my biggest gripe with AI is. It’s like, it makes us more efficient at the process, but it also shortens the process. And so that’s something that I have to constantly balance in doing the work. It’s like, how do I make myself more efficient without shortcutting my way out of the thing that’s the most important thing. And I think that’s been my biggest issue with these tools that are supposed to make you better at your job. Yeah, that’s right. What’s the most important thing you said? You said it’s, you said, I want to do the, I want to use these tools to make me better at my job without losing the most important thing. What were you thinking about? Yeah. I think going back to what we were talking about in terms of the insight being in the process of discovery. And I think that sometimes the idea or for lack of a better word, the answer comes in the most unexpected places in the research process. And so it’s the biggest contradiction in the work because we’re always, we’re in the work itself. I feel like in the process of discovery, we’re searching, we’re sense-making, we’re trying to find patterns, we’re logic-ing in a way, but the best insights don’t really come from logic. They come from instinct and they sort of appear. And so it’s, and that’s what AI is. It recognizes patterns and it’s, and logic and that’s what it’s good at. And so I constantly, it’s really underscored a huge contradiction in the work that we do. It’s like, we’re signing, we’re simplifying, we’re sense-making, we’re identifying patterns, we’re making sense out of complexity, things that feel very logic-oriented and almost mathematical, but the output itself and the core idea that is the idea usually comes out, usually appears out of thin air from some point in the process. And I find that part of the work, I think the most interesting is that it seems so methodical and logic-based and it is to many degrees, but that’s not, but usually the answer doesn’t come that way. No, I really love what you said. And I mean, I feel like the AI, working with AI has really been a challenge in that it’s trying to find that line and protect those boundaries between what I’m doing and what it’s doing. And somebody articulated, and I want to hear you respond to this, that what AI is really good at is it takes the patterns, it identifies patterns, and it can scale these patterns. It’s basically scaling patterns in any direction you want unbelievably fast, but it’s always working with an existing pattern. So if you, and what we do, I guess, is we identify things that break the pattern or that somehow, or that somehow aren’t, don’t fit. But somebody articulated that in a way that made, it made sense to me that it seemed to make the limitations of AI really visceral, but how have you been using it and what, and I have a broad sort of idea. I mean, how do we, how do you work as a strategist in discovery now with all the, you know what I mean? The time constraints, these new tools, what have you, what have you found that works for you? Yeah, I mean, I think it’s, I think the most helpful thing that it’s done is that it’s removed the fear of a blank page. I think before these tools existed, initiating the starting point, I think was always the biggest challenge. So much time for me, at least personally, was spent in mustering up the momentum to initiate. And I think that AI has allowed for very easy access to a starting point. And I think that, yeah, I mean, it’s so much easier to, you know, let’s say you have a transcription of an interview, it’s so much easier to put that into Claude or chat GPT. And they’re like, what are some key themes that keep coming up, you know? And I think it’s helpful to do that, though. And then again, you said, break the pattern, go back through the actual transcription with these patterns and be like, okay, how can I push this theme even further? How can I break this theme and make it, you know, and make it more interesting? And so if anything, for me, it’s been a really great starting point.\ And I mean, I hope, hopefully, I can keep it that way. Hopefully, it stays that way. What about you? Well, yeah, I mean, I’m with you on everything you’ve said, and what occurred to me as you were talking is, and what I think I’m learning is that with the time constraints, it’s very easy to offload a lot of that work early to Claude and have it do a whole bunch of different sort of analyses on transcripts and all these other things. And what I’m learning is that I need to, and I think as I grew older, I realized, my mentor told me in the beginning, he’s like, listen, you need to discover what you’re curious about. Your curiosity is your guide through this process. I really came as a young person feeling like there was a right answer out there I needed to find. Yeah. So sometimes, I think I’m not giving myself enough time to really understand what I think or feel about, and in quality, about what these people have been telling me. You know what I mean? I have the language, and I can treat the transcript as the data set, but I have a giant piece of, I’m a, I am a data set that I haven’t fully processed in the time constraints that I’ve been given. Yeah, I love that framing so much. It’s, you don’t realize that you’re an entire, you’re an entire qualitative entity, and your reactions are part of the data as well. Yeah, yeah. And this is the thing I feel like I’m always really fighting for in a way, and it’s sort of, you know, I mean, it’s probably revealing at a psychological level. I’m always wondering, does this matter? Does this, does this matter? You know what I mean? Does this work matter? And so AI is an interesting challenge. I’m curious, because I mentioned my mentor. Do you have any mentors or people, I always ask this question, I don’t know why they’re together, but what mentors have you had that really shaped you? And then are there touchstones, ideas, or frameworks that you keep returning to as a, in your work? Yeah. I think mentorship wise, I mean, there is definitely a lot more when I was much younger, I think. And, you know, the bosses that believed in me and commented on the quality of my work or my drive or whatever. And I don’t know, I wish I had, sorry, I wish I had more mentors now. Working independently, it was something that I fell into very quickly. And I wish I had more mentors in terms of, you know, and guidance in terms of seeing where my future in this lies and then how I want to, I guess, I don’t even want to say achieve my personal ambitions, but it’s like, how do I discover what those ambitions are? I feel like I need a mentor that can help me. I feel so uncertain in terms of what I see for myself long term. And I the variables that we’re living in, but sorry, were you going to interject? No, no, no. I’m so curious. What would you ask the mentor? What’s the, what would it look like? Yeah, no, that’s a great question. I think I would, I mean, in a simplest sense, I would want to completely dump where I’m at in my life and be like, this is where I’m at. This has been my trajectory. This is what’s going well. This is what’s going bad. Tell me what to do. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. I think that’s right. Yeah. Tell me what to do. I can never resist every time the word mentor gets brought up, because I didn’t know this until I was, I was old. And that somebody told me that mentor, I’d been using this word a lot was, is the name of a character in the Iliad. And the mentor was the man that Ulysses, Odysseus left his son with when he went on his journey. And so mentor is, was, that’s why. And then I think the French ended up making it a role. So mentor has a real grounding in that idea of bringing somebody up in that way. So, and yeah, I feel fortunate that I’ve had mentors. So I’m, I’m touched by your, your awareness of an absence of mentors. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I definitely, and I think right now, I mean, my biggest mentors have been, again, cause I fell into freelancing not by choice, but it ended up being one of the best things that have happened to me. It’s my biggest mentors right now have been the clients that have trusted me and been like, you know, and have facilitated, have given me their trust and sort of facilitated me going off and doing the work. I think the trust in and of itself has been maybe not the most direct definition of mentorship, but I don’t know. I find that clients trusting me and taking on their work and going on the process of discovery has been, has been good guidance for me and good affirmations that, you know that, that I am on the right path and that there’s more to be discovered, but yes, I would love more traditional mentors. Sort of help guide. Yeah. And then the second question, I don’t know that it ever lands really, but this idea of touchstones, I feel like I returned those ideas that I’m sort of, and I’ll be endlessly fascinated with metaphor. You know what I mean? I can never stop thinking about this. Are there touchstones that you return, keep returning to ideas? Yeah. I mean, I think about identity a lot and I think my perception of that as an idea comes from being an identical twin. And so growing up as an identical twin, I’ve always been fixated on the idea of identity and how do I create an identity that’s differentiated from this person that other people constantly associate me with. And so, it comes through a lot in my work as well, because I think identity can be, I mean, there’s two variables to it. It’s who you are and also who you’re not. And I think you can, and the, who you’re not part is the thing that’s been Oh, a lot of times. And I think back about my childhood or growing up, the sense of identity that I was creating for myself was done to intentionally foil somebody else’s. And so, I always think, you know, try to think of okay, what is this not? And that usually helps me figure out what something is, because that was the way that I’ve for better or worse cultivated my sense of self. So yeah. So I mean, that’s usually something that I, that’s usually an easy process for me to go back to is if I can’t articulate what something is yet, what is it not? Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I didn’t know that about you. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a huge thing. People don’t talk about, people don’t talk about, I feel like identical twins are totally sensationalized. It’s like they’re either in media and entertainment and documentaries and stuff. It’s they’re either attached by the hip and best friends, or they’re estranged and it’s very unfortunate and there’s no in the middle. And so, I’ve always been looking for somebody else who is an identical twin, as part of an identical twin ship that relates to identical twin ship in the same way that I do. What was it like growing up as an identical twin? When did you realize you were an identical twin? What did it mean to be an identical twin? Yeah. Oh my gosh. We can have a whole other conversation. We got five minutes. Yeah. We can get, well, I’ll get to what I can get to in five minutes. Yeah. I think it was growing up, especially growing up as a child of immigrants and feeling othered. I found a lot of comfort in my identical twin because it was nice to have a buddy and a companion throughout that hardship and somebody that I could relate to. It’s like that person that I was relating to was almost a reflection back of who I was. So it was comforting, but it was also reinforcement of these things that I was struggling with because this other person who is a copy, a carbon copy of me is also struggling with them. And now me and my identical twin have lived in separate continents for the past five years. And I think it took us being geographically separated for a while to cultivate our own sense of selves and really lean into our differences and our idiosyncrasies. And now I’m like, okay, we’re very similar in a lot of ways, but we’re also very different in a lot of ways. I also recently figured out that me and my identical twin of completely different blood types. So it’s like somewhere along the way, there was some sort of mutation that led to that. And so yeah, I think I’m learning more and more every day the ways in which we’re different. And yeah, I think that comes with time and maturity and establishment of a sense of self. And I think that comes with time, but when you’re young and you’re constantly being associated with somebody else and this person is obviously you love this person. They’re very important to you. It’s like, but at the same time they’re indirectly causing you some strife. It’s a very challenging relationship to navigate. It’s like being born into a marriage. You’re literally being born into a marriage and you don’t have the tools to be in a healthy marriage. I had this sense, and I could be totally wrong when you were talking of really wanting to have a clear view of the world that wasn’t attached to where you came from. And then having this sort of mirror in front of you, having this abstract view of somebody that was like you, that wouldn’t let you forget where you were from. Yeah. Yeah, totally. You articulated it perfectly. Yeah. Let’s see. So, and that there’s a cliche about the superhero stories that these, the origin stories that our biggest wounds are our vulnerabilities become our superpower. Is there something about that experience that you think gives you, what does that do for you today? How does that help? Yeah, no, that’s, I love that question. I think it’s given me a very extreme sense of empathy because I’ve had to, it’s really hard to view this, to have empathy for somebody who you’re trying to other yourself from, but that person is also you. And it’s like, they’re your worst enemy and they’re your best friend. And so it’s like, it’s really hard to have empathy for somebody that feels, and in the same way, it’s really hard to have empathy for yourself. I think that it’s really hard, it was difficult for me to have empathy for her and vice versa. It’s like, I had to get through this emotional block of letting go of my ego and all this stuff in order to find true empathy for this person I love very much. And I think she would say the same thing. And it’s weird because at times it’s like, there’s like, it’s extreme empathy and codependency or it’s completely muted. And so finding a healthy level of empathy for this other human being who’s a part of me has allowed me to be really empathetic towards other people, even when I don’t want to be. Yeah. Beautiful. I want to thank you so much. This has been a real joy. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course. Thank you. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]

Lucy Neiland on Invisibility & Ethnography

Lucy Neiland [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucy-neiland-5842a611/] is a Business Anthropologist at Ipsos UK and a founding member of the Ipsos Ethnography Centre of Excellence. She previously led ethnographic research at Serco ExperienceLab and worked at Ethnographic Research, Inc. in Kansas City. She holds an MA in Visual Anthropology from the University of Manchester. Her published work includes "Hysterical Health: Unpicking the cultural belief's that shape women's healthcare [https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/hysterical-health-unpicking-cultural-beliefs-that-shape-womens-healthcare]" and "From Purity to Power: The wellness cultural operating system [https://www.frontlinebesci.com/p/from-purity-to-power]." And I think you know this, but I start all these conversations with the same question, which I borrowed from a friend of mine, who’s also a neighbor, who helps people tell their story. And it’s such a beautiful question, I borrow it, but it’s so big, I over explain it the way that I’m doing right now. So before I ask it, I want you to know that you’re in total control, and you can answer or not answer really any way that you want to. And the question is, where do you come from? It’s a really nice question, it is, and I’m not sure I the being in total control. I’ll give it a go. Because I am used to asking the questions and not answering them. So bear with me. So I feel the question is two parts. For me, really, there’s people and there’s place. And I think, in terms of people, I’m from, I don’t know, I’ve always felt my family were a little bit crazy. So there’s, my mum is, she’s Polish Jewish heritage. So second generation, I think her family, through, they flew in contraband during the Second World War. And we’re sort of East End Jewish gangsters, as far as I can tell. And then on the other side, my dad is Irish Catholic. And they weren’t parented well. My mum, I think she was, she had to leave home and live with her relatives, because she was too much, her mum said. And then my dad, he was put into a home and then taken out again. And as a long roundabout way of saying, my parents are really nice. They’re both still alive, I’m lucky. But they are, they never knew how to parent. And so I always felt a bit feral. And a bit, yeah, I think, and also on top of that, they’re both artists. So they take up a lot of space with their worldviews and their noise. And, and it’s made me quite an observer of people, I think, watching their, their craziness. Yeah. And where were you? Where was this all? So I grew up in South London, in Clapham. So 70s and 80s is really multicultural, nice, lots of nice things about it. But when I was there, at that time, there was no national curriculum at school. And it adds to my sense, I had really feral childhood, but, maybe in my mind, but sometimes my boss says, I’m not trying hard enough with spreadsheets or numbers. And I don’t think he understands that I probably did maths, for half an hour, once every two weeks, there wasn’t, it’s not, it’s no joke. But it was also there was a lot of good things about it. But it was also a really violent place back then. And it felt very polarised in that sense. And I was mugged and attacked a few times, as was my dad and my sister. And it just felt, it felt a bit of a, I don’t know, a rough era in London. And I’m now I’m in Tooting, which I really, but I’m hoping we don’t slide back into 80s London, but I don’t think we will. And do you have a recollection of what you wanted to be when you grew up? I don’t know, not really. I do. I do remember saying to my mum, I’ve got to work outside, I can’t sit still. I can’t, I need to be moving around. I might have to make my desk into a standing desk in a minute, because I will need to stand up. I’m not very good at staying still for a long period of time. But yeah, I remember my, my mum, we had a school play at primary school, and it was the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Do you know that one? And I had to be a rat. And I had these brown itchy tights. And my parents were watching. And they were saying to each other, who is that kid on stage that just can’t sit still, jumping around? Really glad it’s not our kid. That’s really embarrassing. And then realised it was me. And I feel that’s been the story of my life a bit. But I feel, it’s, I really have always been a people watcher, and really fascinated by rules and rule breaking and notions of authority and, and people who are so certain about things trying to unpick why? How can people be so sure of things? But yeah, no, not, not really. I applied to art college, and I got a place in a really good London art school. But then I thought, oh, that’s my parents career. So I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t do that. I should try something new, they’ll interfere too much. So I mixed art with anthropology and did a master’s degree in visual anthropology. Yeah. I love, I mean, I was just about to ask about, you had talked about how growing up in the house, you grew up and turned you into an observer of people. And then you use that phrase people watcher. And I feel I say often that I’m a people, people watching, it’s my favorite pastime. Can you say more about people being a people watcher? Is that if I’m just even the phrase itself? Do you have a record where that comes from? It’s so nice, isn’t it? It’s, it is such a nice thing to do, even a bus stop, or I think it was Mike Agar, the anthropologist said, you can do, ethnography, a bus stop with one person. And I think that’s really true. You don’t need to be anywhere exotic, or it doesn’t have to be too complex, you can find patterns and norms and change and just by, your local superstore or wherever, it’s, I can’t help it. I’m a real watcher, starer. And I’ve also always felt I’ve been, I’m invisible. So I took a, I took this cup of tea to an exercise class the other day. And I had a china cup. And I drank it. And I was just standing there with my cup. And everyone was, why have you got a cup? And I just, I thought no one would be able to see me, it wouldn’t have made any difference. But yeah, just from a young age, I remember when, when my parents, when we all live together, there would always be people over and they’d always be, drinking and gambling. And they’d be, smoke in the living room. Everyone was smoky in that era. And I just love to watch them all argue and try and work out what the hell was going on with them all. Yeah, I feel that continued into my life today. Definitely. It’s my favorite part of my job. Yeah. And so catch us up. Tell us where are you now? And what’s the work that you do? So now I work at Ipsos. And I work in business anthropology or ethnography and run all sorts of projects on everything on, what’s it being a patient with a certain illness or, looking at financial services and interactions with products or what’s missing in people’s lives. So a bit of everything. I think some of my favorite projects have been around things like weight stigma and obesity and masculinity and things that you really feel like social silences or stigma or that aren’t well explored or maybe society isn’t thinking about in a complex way. What have you been working on? What’s the most recent social silence that you’ve been really fixated on or spending time thinking about? I think wellness is one I’m really interested in the kind of rise of wellness culture and how it’s become a kind of total operating system almost in how it shapes how people think and eat and what they buy. And I guess that’s tied in with misinformation is one strand of it. But also this idea I’m really interested across all the projects I see in that your health is your responsibility as an individual and that you need to take control of it. And it’s almost like this gentle gaslighting of people to that they’ve caused weight gain. They’ve caused themselves to be sick. Therefore, they need to fix it. And I feel like these are the narratives that we’re hearing in health in finances, when you think about things like pensions, you didn’t save enough, you made some bad decisions, and not taking into account where you’re born, what you’re born with your family circumstances, life choices, pressures, this idea that we’re these autonomous individuals who should be able to navigate things almost like a rich white man. And that you’re ultimately accountable, or you’re responsible for your outcomes. But I guess more interestingly, that the society isn’t what you’re saying. Yeah, that society isn’t. And that, I’m seeing more chatter. I mean, I don’t on in the social media I’m looking at in terms of the growth of community, community support. I’m working with a great group of people on this idea for community pension. So just things like that are really giving me hope for the future that people want to be together and draw from each other. When did you first discover that you could make a living doing this kind of thing? So during my master’s, I remember I was working with this company called Ethnographic Research Incorporated. I think they were the first company to do business anthropology. They were based in Kansas City and run by Melinda Ray Holloway, really great ethnographer and Ken Erickson. And they, so I was freelancing for them, whilst I was doing my master’s degree. And I remember going back to my colleagues on my master’s who were saying, how can you, how can you work for these car companies or these, what are you doing? It should be for social good. Why are you doing business anthropology? And really getting it in the neck. Because I felt like it was interesting because they, a lot of the course were, it was this idea that you should be looking for something exotic or, to put it bluntly, study people that are poorer than you, go to communities where you can, I think, could be more extractive. And I was always interested in power, where power is or those dynamics. But yeah, that was in my 20s. I started doing this type of work and I didn’t know it would be more of my career. So I started out doing this part time, but also trying to make documentary films or making documentary films and doing those two things at the same time. And what kind of film, what were the films you were making? They were weirdly a lot about the American military. I’m not really sure what was going on. So one of the films we made was about this motel where Timothy McVeigh stayed before he carried out the Oklahoma bombing. It was in the middle of America, right there. If you put a pin in America, it was there. And I wanted to make a film about middle America. It was at the time of the Iraq war and what was going on. It was right by a military base with soldiers shipping out to Iraq. And I guess it was how middle America was feeling at the time about domestic terrorism and foreign terrorism and how they were conceptualizing these things differently or the same or othering people or yeah. Yeah. And other films I’ve followed a military family from Oklahoma over to the UK to understand life, an American life in the UK on an American Air Force base. So in Britain, we still have American Air Force bases, which I find so bizarre. And they are like small American towns in the UK with American dollars, food, culture, high school. And it was meant to be a film about the culture of the UK and US, but they didn’t leave the base. The American fact, they were very scared of the UK. So it became much more about that, about fear and containment. Yeah. That’s amazing. How would you how do you describe the way that you work? I mean, everybody develops their own maybe method or approach or way of doing ethnography. How do you think about what you do? And how do you how would you describe the way that you learn? I feel like I really love working in a team. And I really thrive from trying to work out what we’re seeing as a team. So coming up with, we’ll go and do our research. And it might be on things like health influences in different countries, what, what I like your dog, what what informs people’s health decisions in say, a global study on who influences health, and we’ll go to these countries. And we’ll talk to people spend time with people. But for me, the really exciting part is working out what we’re seeing, and often arguing about it. I love that. And it was like, spending a couple of days really analyzing and unpicking and working out a story and a narrative that makes sense. And I feel like if you’re not arguing or coming at it with a different view, and then working out together, then what that that gray area is, then I don’t know, that’s the bit that gets me out of bed is that bit? I really love that. Yeah. And what makes it so important, like the case, I was in these conversations, I always feel like I want to get to some foundational thing of what is the value of this kind of ethnographic work? And we can always talk about AI and all that stuff. But what do you think makes this stuff so important? What’s the value that it brings and the role, the proper role it should play in the way organizations go about doing their business? It really, it really helps understand what’s happening in the world. I know that’s just really cheesy. But I remember making channel four in the UK years ago said, Can you make a film about a future predictor? I think her name was faith popcorn. I can’t remember. I have a funny Faith Popcorn story. And I said, No, I can’t. But I could make a film about how anthropology or sociology or understanding cultural patterns can help you prepare for what’s coming. If you work with people’s social and cultural norms, you can, you have to work with people for things like, during COVID, you’ve got to work with these norms, you can’t dictate from above, and make people comply, you need to understand people’s beliefs and everyday lives and care networks and ecosystems to work with those. And that’s really important for brands and for medical professionals and institutions to do is to get behind the counter with these with people and work with them rather than impose from above, I think. I really want to hear your faith popcorn story. It was not directly with her, but I interviewed at the it was Faith Popcorns Brain Reserve, I think was the name of her company. Yeah, and I got into the second interview, I think it was the same interview, but they brought me into some room that was like a war room for we’re doing something for, I think this woman came in and she asked me this is where this is about the future of carbonation. And so she was she asked me point blank, what do you think is the future of bubbles? And I think, sincerely, one of my proudest moments, without meeting a missing a beat, I said, no bubbles. I love it. Very good. Yeah, my entire higher education prepared me for that. That’s really good. No bubbles. I did not hear back. No. I wonder what someone else said, who got that job? Yeah. How do you what is the answer? What’s the answer? Yeah, the bubbles have still stayed the same as far as I can see. I think there’s been experiment with smaller bubbles. I think there’s probably there is light and low carbonation. I feel like we’ve Oh, yeah. I haven’t thought deeply about bubbles, clearly. And I didn’t intend for us to get overwhelmed. I overflow with my fave popcorn story. I do. I bubble over. That’s right. Well, very well done. So the visual anthropology bit and the business anthropology bit. I’m just curious what how has the practice changed over your career to I feel like, I’m sorry, I’m bumbling questions on top of each other. I love that description you described of being challenged by the anthropologists around you for applying this into the corporate world. And I’ve often been the brand guy with not for profit people. And that that boundary is very well protected on one side. You know what I mean? Where people really feel you can’t go over there and do that thing. I’m just wondering, what’s what was your experience? If you could say more about that experience. I would love to hear it. About the experience that Yeah, I guess that anthropology is not something that should be participating in corporate culture or commercial culture. Maybe I’m projecting. No, I feel it’s an interesting one, isn’t it? Because we all need products and services that work and that are good and that talk to us. So. So to understand people is key to getting these things. And I don’t think it’s as simple as good guys and bad guys, you know, so you might do work in public affairs or for government. But if you don’t particularly the government or, you know, you know, then you benefit structure. Why? Why? In a way, that’s not any better or any worse than working for, you know, a particular corporation. Obviously, there’s not nice corporations out there to obviously lots of them. But but I think it’s it’s not as black and white as public sector, good private sector, evil. I think it’s it’s more complicated, isn’t it? And I feel especially for things health systems, or I don’t know, things financial institutions, I do a lot of financial services, a lot of healthcare ethnography. And I feel those are really important because your health finances need, you know, you need those things to be to be working for you to, you know, get into order age in good Nick. I don’t think I answered your question at all. Sorry. No. You did. I think it says the follow up was really was how has the role of anthropology changed over your career? I feel it was maybe fringe in the beginning. Do you feel it’s changed in terms of? Yeah, definitely. It’s definitely changed. One of the things I was gonna say, yeah, I went for this job ages ago, it was I really did want it was working for a mental health team in London Hospital. And it was basically because there was a lot of, I think it was a lot more black men being sectioned than anyone else in in this area of London and probably elsewhere. But it was focusing on this area. And the job was to really understand the cultural beliefs of the, you know, clinical team and the police and to work in that community and understand why the rates of sectioning were higher and, you know, and how to reduce them. And I’ve sat on this table with other anthropologists there. And we had a group discussion. And it was it was really great. And somebody who had a PhD got the job, they wanted someone with a PhD, I didn’t have one and don’t have one. And, but I remember talking about, you know, even doing ethnography for the military, you know, not that I’ve ever done that, or, but, you know, you can be an anthropology, anthropologist for the police, or for, you know, these health services to really help liaise with the community. And I remember somebody in on that table saying, you know, anthropologists can’t work with the military, that’s really awful, you know, how could you do that? And it’s sort of, to me, that blew my mind, because these places and institutions are the ones that often need those cultural bridges to communities, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, more, more than ever, actually, more, not more than ever, but they need that intelligence and understanding more than other institutions, it would seem. Yeah. And as long as you’re doing it in the right way, I did apply for a job with secret services in the UK to be an anthropologist, and it was looking into the rise of terrorism. And I didn’t get a second interview. And I was quite pleased about that, because I, I wondered if that would be going undercover. And, you know, and I wouldn’t, I’m not, I wouldn’t want to do anything, you know, that, unethical. What is it that anthropologist does that other people don’t do? It seems it’s a sort of a weird, it’s, you know, for some people, it’s very strange. You know, you say, people watching what God’s name, does that have to do with the how the world works? Or how adding that, I mean, maybe I’m being being provocative, of course, but what is it that anthropology does that others don’t do? I think it’s really trying to understand others, the set of rules and identities and behaviours that other people have that make sense of things. So how other people and groups and subgroups are making sense of things. And I think that’s maybe the difference is really, yeah, trying and no, it’s so boring to say, but walking in other people’s shoes, I can’t believe I said that, but really trying to understand these and not dismiss different views. So I’m really, I’ve got on when I did this work on masculinity, a couple of years ago, I started a social media account, as a young man, and I wanted to see, I don’t post anything, I just receive, I just have an algorithm now that feeds me stuff. And some of it is, it’s just really blows my mind, it’s stuff that I would not be following, but I want to understand different movements. And, you know, and some of them are quite far right, quite extreme. And I think, but I want to understand the mindset of people rather than dismiss, and not lean into the end of history and liberalism, but to really walk in the shoes of views that I might not necessarily agree with to, to try and, yeah, work out what’s going on and how gaps can be bridged. And I think I was feeling quite despondent recently thinking about how it feels like an era where I think we used to say as anthropologists, at least on our team, it was about empathy creation for different groups. So for your consumer, for your patient, really empathizing with them as a brand or as an institution to work with them. And I feel like that’s not enough anymore, just empathizing. And I’ve been really thinking about what’s going on, and why isn’t that enough? And I was reading about empathy. And I was wondering if it’s about people are now almost over empathizing with a with their own in group. And it’s, I was reading about that analogy of, you’re almost shining a spotlight on your in group. And so everybody else outside that group is in the dark, rather than drawing back and having sunlight on everybody. It’s like, wow, do you know what I mean? Yeah. That’s beautiful. Where did that analogy come from? Is that your own analogy? I can’t remember. I was reading this. A guy who’s who’s written about it. I just can’t remember his name. This observation started with the work around masculinity and you exposing yourself to the social media feed of a young man, presumably. What’s that? What can you say more about what that experience has been has been like? Yeah, it’s been really weird. So it started with my daughter during COVID times. And when everybody went back to school in the UK, she became a bit of a school refuser. She didn’t want to go back. And she did go back. But, you know, it was much lower attendance. And I talked to her and her sister, who are younger teenagers at the time, and they just were reporting just the rise of misogyny in the classroom. And, and I think the schools really didn’t know what to do at that time. You know, they had templates for not necessarily the best ones, but for racism or for, you know, other issues, but this was something that they hadn’t that they hadn’t seen before. And so I interviewed lots of teachers, other students, and, you know, my kids, other people’s kids and started a whole project with my colleague Diana on looking into what was going on and did a lot of expert interviews to build up a picture of, of what was going on, because it really blew my mind. And so, yeah, I put together a documentary, combining different voices. So, you know, young men, young women, experts, teachers. Yeah, and it was a really interesting process. And a part of that was creating this social media algorithm to see what these young men were exposed to and, and, and was what was coming at them hard and fast, just from searching things like gym or football or vitamins, you know, how, how extreme things would go, you know, straight on to choking or, you know, Andrew Tate back then, or, you know, how to get your girl to do what you want her to do, and just so much worse. It’s obviously so much worse out there. But I think what blew my mind about this project, and is still blowing my mind is the fact that we’re spending so much time looking at young men and boys, and we are still only unpicking what’s going on with the, you know, with Epstein. And, and you think about these older musicians and politicians and the social silence around almost, around what’s happened with these older men, you know, that have set a template, sure, without social media. But this culture has been well established. It’s not new news. It’s just now we have little reels explaining it. So we shouldn’t be pointing at the young boys, you know, to be accountable here, I feel. Yeah, that seems to be, I mean, that, of course, is the Epstein files, the promise of the Epstein file, what makes them so powerful, right? Yeah, what they seem to promise about, about what we’re going to learn. I mean, we just, there’s a college nearby, the president of the local college was, you know, just revealed to have been in 2500 emails or something like that. That’s amazing. So don’t you think, don’t you think with the, what is a silence here that is interesting is how we other the men involved. And slowly, we can’t do that anymore, because it’s so many. And so it’s surely then it’s a cultural norm that we need to talk about rather than say, look how unusual it is, the French case. I can’t remember her name, but that really brave lady who turned up to court and said she wouldn’t be ashamed. But it’s like, you know, there was a whole narrative about how unusual these things are. And actually, they’re not, are they? But they’re so well covered up. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s just so, it’s all part of some, some just general way of being, you know what I mean? You say, the power is all, there’s somehow acceptable aspects of what one does if one is in pursuit of power. The president said, I was looking, you know, I’m looking for money for the college. That’s it? That’s it. Yeah. Okay, then. Strange, very strange. I want to return to you that you’re, that I have so much identification with the, your insight into the idea that, that is true, that we used to be advocates for empathy and empathy was this thing, but we’ve entered into an era where empathy doesn’t even feel like it’s, it doesn’t, it’s just not up to purpose, I guess is the way I came along with the cliche I’m looking for is, but so what do you do now? Is there a way that you’re rethinking approach or rethinking practice to, in an acknowledgement of this? I love that we’re all, there’s, I’m going to add a little detail here. There’s a guy, I live in a very small town. I’ve thought a lot about community engagement and how divided we are and what social media did to all that. And there’s a guy from University of Berkeley, California, Berkeley, John A. Powell, who wrote a book called Belonging Without Othering. And it’s this framework about bonding and bridging and breaking. It’s all this whole way of talking about how communities can come together to repair injustices of the past, but not do it. Often we do it, we end up just what is, what’s the line, you know, meet the new boss, same as the old boss. We just switch power positions and just perform the same injustice in a different direction. And it just pushes the resentment down the road. And so anyway, he has this way of talking about bridging behaviors, which is, we don’t have them anymore, really. We’ve forgotten here in the States. But that bonding is, you’re talking about we’re so, maybe social media has got us, we’re bonding all the time. We’re celebrating the in-group all the time. That flashlight image you gave was really so powerful. So enough of my rambling. What are the implications for how you work, if that’s the case? So one project I’ve really enjoyed working on is one about kidney disease recently. And it’s been really moving. And we’ve spent time with patients, people, you know, going through kidney disease and treatment for it. And how we’ve brought this to our clients is we’ve done our ethnography. So we’ve gone out, we spent time with them, we’ve understood their lives and the patterns, the influences, the journey. And what we then did is we brought them into a co-creation session with the client and the client, you know, comprised of designers, product designers, scientists, doctors, and some of them hadn’t met patients before. Some of them work, you know, are patient facing, but they hadn’t spent time with patients as an equal. Do you know what I mean? You’re always, as a doctor, you have a role to do. And it’s a different hierarchy, you know, even if you’re a great doctor, you’ve still got a role. So here we had, I think it was a two hour workshop, where we didn’t call patients patients, they were people, they were guests. And then our clients, we mix people up. And we designed a workshop where it was really about co-creating together, everybody was equal, everybody learned from each other’s experience. And we just got such great feedback that that was a really moving session. And for us, we just finished a project to on elitism. And for that project, we really would like to get our clients in the room with some of our participants as well. And also in that project, we’ve got participants with very different political views. And I don’t know, I don’t think co-creation is always the way or necessarily always the answer. But it’s quite nice to see where people do converge. And what are those things where people have the same worries and fears and interests and where they can come together, rather than trying to get somebody to empathize with his whole other person, maybe it’s just with some aspects that they can relate to. So maybe it’s more dissected, I’m still thinking on it. Do you have an answer? I don’t have an answer. Lots of other things come back to me. Actually, I was just remembering, I guess I’m a bit of an Anglophile. But do you know, Roy Langmaid? Does that name ring a bell? So he’s a, there’s a couple, I think, threads in my own career, I think he was the, they call him a father of qualitative research in the UK, Roy Langmaid. And what was her name? Wendy Gordon? Does that name ring a bell? No, we’re gonna have to look them up. But they’re in the conventional qualitative space. And I think there’s a way that qualitative and ethnography are two totally different cultures, even though they’re addressing the same problem, of course. And of course, that makes sense. But he would do these breakthrough sessions, the same thing, this idea of co-creation. So yeah, I think stuff like that, that there’s a need. And I remember, yeah, just getting people in the same room. I feel echoing what you said before, that somehow the answer to what’s the role of qualitative, you said, you said these, you said these things that felt you were apologizing for how simple they were. But this idea that just getting people in the same room and treating each other as human beings, and just having some interaction about the facts of the matter or the experience of the matter is a lot, it seems. It’s a lot, isn’t it? And trying to remove power dynamics when you do that, I think is really important, isn’t it? So working hard to, we did think long and hard about what to call patients, how to introduce them, and that thing to really try and empower people to bring their whole self, if they can. Yeah. It’s interesting. Yeah, to create the appropriate conditions for people to actually meet each other. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like for the most part, people want to, don’t they? It’s, it’s all the other things that I think I’ve got a very positive view about humans in general. But people want to do good and have agency. And I don’t believe in the concept of laziness, people. Wait, wait, wait, what do you mean? Who’s, who are the advocates for laziness that we’re, we’re up against? Don’t you in the tabloids, lazy benefit, whatever, or just people should eat less and move more or, and I, I just don’t believe anybody is lazy. There’s a reason people don’t do things. Not that people should be eating less or moving more. It’s not what I’m saying, but there’s a people, there’s a reason why there’s always a reason nobody is, everybody wants to be appreciated. Everyone’s agency, everybody wants to find fulfillment. But stuff gets in the way and circumstances out of your control. Is it, yeah, I don’t know. I remember having a very strong reaction when somebody would ask for creative respondents, we need creative respondents. And I’d just be like, it just pissed the hell, it just pissed me off because I felt like it just diminished the idea that, I feel like in a way, we’re all creative and imaginative all the time. The whole project of trying to get through a day is this imaginative act. Right. And, and we’re now we’re going to have to find somebody who’s what, there’s some people that aren’t creative. I just think it’s not the job. Yeah. I think that’s really, really annoying. I would hate that because we’re, might have a project going ahead that is looking at how men engage in the arts and not the arts as in opera, painting or whatever, but to look at some of the barriers that men might have in, it’s for this company that does these festivals for women and how women come to, and they understand well how women come together, and appreciate different things, but they, they want to understand the barriers for men engaging in these things. And what I really like about this brief, it’s not a creativity as in high culture or, it’s actually, maybe how someone relates to music or a podcast or, dancing on their own or, being a creative builder or, or, dressing up as a knight or, or whatever you might do. So yeah, people are creative in, in every way, aren’t they? Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You begin by not pretending what it means to be creative. And also to be part of creative industries, I think is if you look at the history of art and music, most of these people are probably really rich, aren’t they? Because they’re the people that could afford to, be part of it. So you’re already excluding so many creative people. Yes. Which leads to another rant I have about the use of the word of taste, but I want to, I want to, well, it’s not so much of a rant as I feel like it’s just used as shorthand for this, for this thing. Let’s, let’s just treat this as a, something that we can’t really explain, but that explains my superiority is the, the application of it. As opposed to maybe just doing the research and being rigorous about it, but I’m, I’m being a bit of a prick, but I want, I’m curious, what’s the, when people call you guys, what are the, what kinds of problems do they come to you with? Like, what’s the, yeah, what do you, what do people come to you for? And what do you say? Oh, don’t ask me that one, but what do they come for? What they come for all different issues, really so we’re a team of, 15, I think. And we all have different skill sets. So, I do a lot of healthcare and financial services, ethnography, but also other types, but different team members specialize in different things. And that’s why it’s so nice. Different people bring a different expertise together. So one of our colleagues, Gigi really focuses on beauty care, and it’s so interesting listening to her talk because that’s not, my area. So it could be anything, about new trends in, in drinks or, just anything and everything, but really with an eye on, on the future, the rise of, low alcohol, you’ve got a whole lot of companies worried there, haven’t you about, what, what’s going to be happening in the future if, if you’re, somebody making beer or, or, yeah, I said, I do a lot of the looking at, patients, healthcare companies with new medications or thinking about how better to communicate to patients, the, how to get patients engaged with, with their products. I’m just trying to think of what I’ve been working on recently, just, just everything. We’re running near the end of time. And I’m curious about, I have the question that usually comes early. It’s where the joy is in it for you. And in particular, I’m wondering about the actual ethnography itself, the time you spend with people, what’s that experience like for you and how do you feel, I think we’re, it’s a strange bunch that spends this much time people watching and, and how do you feel it’s changed you? What do you, what do you appreciate about all the time you’ve been able to spend with people trying to understand them? I feel like I’m not, I, I, still feel like I can just stare and watch and no one will ever see me. And I feel you just feel really lucky. Don’t you doing this type of work that you’ve been up and down the country and to different countries, not that I travel that much with kids, but, but, in, in the UK, just all the different households you’ve been in and the people that have given you their time and what you’ve learned from them and, maybe what they’ve learned from you. I remember with my colleague, Hela, we went to a participant’s household a few years ago. And at first they were, it was her, she had COPD and her son and her son had quite severe epilepsy and she was the carer of him. And they were, their lives were really tricky and they were quite suspicious of us at first. And we sat there and we weren’t getting anywhere. And then I just start to talk about my, my daughter had epilepsy. She’s grown out of it, but it was a childhood form of epilepsy. And as soon as I shared something of myself and my lovely colleague share something of herself, our participants shared their whole lives with us. And that was just so nice, making sure that you, you give something, you, you’re not just taking, and I feel like our best ethnographers do that. You’re not, you’re not just a sponge, you’re there in a relationship and you, you have to give. And I think that stays there, doesn’t it? You, you’ve, you impact people’s lives. I remember doing field work in, when I graduated, I worked with an anthropologist, in, I went to make a film about his field work in India and, in South India and him and his wife. So we dressed in local clothes and, and him and his wife were quite strict about, not answering questions when people asked you questions. And I remember really arguing with them about this. So they were white. I think he was from Belgium. She was from England and we were in a community in Tamil Nadu in South India. And some of the people there had hadn’t left that village. And, and I didn’t like the idea of not, they’d ask, so would you wear these clothes at home? What was it like, are you married, like really sharing a world outside, this is the time, people didn’t have the internet then at home. Well, I certainly didn’t, and so you, you have to really share your life, don’t you too. And it’s not all about you, not everything about you, but something. Yeah. That’s beautiful. I mean, so much of it. Yeah. That’s beautiful. I feel like, I don’t think I have anything to add. I was going to say, I feel like as a young man, I always say that I was feel really grateful that I was put in across the table from, from somebody and told to try to understand them. And you know what I mean? I don’t know that I would have gone out of my way to learn that if it hadn’t ended up my job. Certainly that way of being in the conversation is, I think something I learned just as getting older to your point. And I think it’s made me better, but it’s changed everything. Yeah. And I think there’s a, maybe, I dunno, maybe as well, there’s a way to challenge views sometimes that you learn, don’t you too, to, especially when you’re with more powerful people to sort of throw the tiny bombs in, in slightly in the nicest way. So whilst you’re listening and giving, but you’re sort of also just sometimes staring slightly, probably not meant to say that, but I do like that. There’s drama in there. You’re not just, it’s not this there’s drama in there. There’s conflict in there. And to your point about what, what do you like about it? What gets you up in the morning? I think it’s, it’s those things, isn’t it? It’s like the tension and the conflict and picking this puzzle of like human weirdness and try to find out what those patterns and stories are. Cause they’re really complicated, aren’t they? Oh my gosh. Yes. Awesome. Lucy, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. I really appreciate you accepting the invitation and sharing your time. Thank you. Oh. Thank you for talking. It’s been really nice. I hope it’s made some sense. Thank you. Get full access to THAT BUSINESS OF MEANING at thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe [https://thatbusinessofmeaning.substack.com/subscribe?utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=CTA_4]