The Vernon Richard Show

In this episode of the Vernon Richard Show, Richard and Vernon discuss the growth plans for testers in test automation, focusing on the importance of coding skills, exploratory testing, and the balance between generalist and specialist roles. They explore the need for measurable targets in personal development plans and the significance of understanding the context of problems in software development. The conversation also touches on the impact of AI on software engineering and the necessity for collaboration between testers and developers. 00:00 - Intro 01:42 - The Ramble begins 07:39 - QUESTION (Thanks Thierry!): "How do you see a growth plan for testers in test automation as a personal development plan?" 10:12 - How has Vern helped Testers create an automation development plan? 13:14 - What does it mean to go from novice to advanced? 15:15 - Rich wants to know what test automation means before answering the question! 15:57 - The nuance (and trap!) of the word "tool" 17:35 - Rich has come up with a new term for old testing 19:21 - What about code? Which languages should you learn? 20:34 - Vern's answer to a Redditor asking a similar question 23:34 - Don't forget the reason why we're trying to learn all of these tools and languages 24:24 - Who makes the "best" "automation" testers? 25:45 - What does it look like when an SDET hasn't learned how to identify the right test? 26:34 - Ok if that's you and your team, how can you make it work? 28:33 - Lord of the Rings testing! 29:40 - How does Alan Richardson defeat "Testing Sauron"? (I'll stop the LotR references now I swears it 😇) 31:07 - Noah Sussman's excellent early ideas to solve this problem 32:42 - Generalist or Specialist, what is the core, foundational knowledge needed to call yourself an engineer? 34:18 - ...and what about AI? (only took half an hour!) 35:10 - Vern wants to get back to work asap and start creating growth plans... but for who? 38:20 - What two things are often missed in growth plans? 40:41 - Rich talks about the tangible difference between being a novice and advanced SDET/Automation Specialist/Toolsmith 41:39 - The cognitive load of your engineers 42:17 - Production code vs Automation code: Which is more important? Rich breaks it down. 44:27 - What are we optimising for? 47:45 - Do we have to choose between readability and efficiency though? 52:52 - Learning through pain 54:12 - Rich and Vern wonder what they should do next 54:32 - What makes this relevant in today's job market 55:22 - One last wild take about software development careers... Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod: * 03:23 - The Øredev [https://oredev.org/about] conference in Malmö * Get your tickets here [https://oredev.org/tickets]! * 04:13 - The LLEWT peer testing workshop * Check out this summary from last years event [https://qahiccupps.blogspot.com/2024/07/express-listen-and-field.html] by James Thomas [https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-thomas-840aa11a/] * Read about the origins [https://lawst.com/lawst-format/] of this flavour of workshop * 06:40 - Cynefin [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynefin_framework] a sense-making framework devised by Dr Dave Snowden * Here's Dr Snowden explaining [https://thecynefin.co/about-us/about-cynefin-framework/] the framework * Enabling Constraints [https://cynefin.io/wiki/Constraints#Types_of_Constraints] * The Paradox of Choice [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice#Schwartz's_thesis] (which I didn't know was a book - readingList++) * 07:39 - Here's the full question [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/tdpauw_reaching-out-to-my-testing-community-friends-activity-7335560629988040706-N04c?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAACJLG0BQTHTewSrvVgR_kl1D1z_Hk0JA_g] from Thierry [https://www.linkedin.com/in/tdpauw/] as he asked it on LinkedIn * 14:14 - "GUI Automation" * A term used to describe tools focused on driving browsers. Some examples of such tools would include Selenium [https://www.selenium.dev/], Cypress [https://www.cypress.io/], Playwright [https://playwright.dev/], and Watir. * 15:57 - I'll link to Rich's article once it's published 🙂 * 16:04 - Automation in Testing (AiT) * Automation in Testing references [https://www.perplexity.ai/search/96316ca9-ada8-4434-8a59-dadb3ac21af9] (via Perplexity) * 16:18 - Some tools and frameworks Rich mentioned: * Selenium [https://www.selenium.dev/] * Playwright [https://playwright.dev/] * JUnit [https://junit.org/] * 18:50 - Rich's API Testing article [https://www.qt.io/quality-assurance/blog/4-essential-types-of-automated-api-testing] on Qt [https://www.qt.io/] QA blog * 19:07 - Rich's article [https://www.qt.io/quality-assurance/blog/exploring-the-different-types-of-automated-ui-testing] explaining the different kinds of GUI Automation * 19:21 - What's a scripting language vs an object-oriented language? * According to Perplexity [https://www.qt.io/quality-assurance/blog/exploring-the-different-types-of-automated-ui-testing] * Key takeaway: These are not mutually exclusive terms and label to two different aspects of programming languages * Scripting: how code is run * Object-orietned: how code is organised * 19:36 - Programming languages * TypeScript [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TypeScript] * Java [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_(programming_language)] * C# [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_(programming_language)] (pronounced "See-Sharp") * JavaScript [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript] * 19:52 - Mark Winteringham * Mark's website [https://www.mwtestconsultancy.co.uk/] * Mark's GenAI book [https://www.manning.com/books/software-testing-with-generative-ai] * Mark's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/markwinteringham/] * 20:34 - The article [https://typeshare.co/vernonrichards/posts/career-advice-for-a-35-year-old-manual-tester] called "Career Advice For A 35+ Year Old Manual Tester" * 26:54 - Erik "I love orange" Davis * Erik's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikld/] * 27:42 - Rich's S.A.C.R.E.D. [https://thefriendlytester.co.uk/2019/06/new-whiteboard-testing-video-sacred] model * 29:40 - Alan Richardson * Alan's website [https://www.eviltester.com/] * Alan's Patreon community [https://www.patreon.com/eviltester/posts] * Alan's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/eviltester/] * 31:02 - Noah Sussman * Noah's stupendous blog post [https://infiniteundo.com/post/62421363463/qa-toc] "How to teach yourself to be a technical tester: some thoughts." * Noah's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/noahsussman/] * Highly recommend that you watch Noah's talks on anyOfTheThings * 32:24 - Then the effervescent Michael Larsen [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mkltesthead/] actually went through the thing! * He documented his journey with it too.https://www.mkltesthead.com/2014/02/...

In this episode of the Vernon Richard Show, the hosts discuss the significance of social media and community interaction in the software testing field. They explore how social media has evolved, the importance of content creation, and the balance between personal goals and professional networking. The conversation also touches on their favorite podcasts and books, as well as future directions for their own show. * 06:10 - Olly Fairhall * Olly's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/olly-fairhall/] * Olly's Bluesky [https://bsky.app/profile/pixel-tester.bsky.social] * 11:27 - Chris Armstrong * Chris's blog [https://christovskia.blog/] * Chris's podcast The Testing Peers [https://testingpeers.com/] (of PeersCon fame!) * Chris's YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@christovskia] * Chris's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/christovskia/] * 19:52 - Anne-Marie Charrett * Anne-Marie's book [https://leanpub.com/qc] (why are you still here? Go and buy it right now!) * Anne-Marie's blog * Anne-Marie's LinkedIn * 28:21 - Angie Jones * Angie's website [https://angiejones.tech/] (including links to her public GitHub [https://github.com/angiejones] repos, blog [https://angiejones.tech/blog/], and allTheSocialMedia profiles - I told you she was prolific!) * 28:33 - Gops * To prove my point, I cannot find this man's LinkedIn profile 🤦🏾‍♂️😂 (this is a dude who I've known for multiple decades btw!) * 34:05 - I work at Phrase [https://phrase.com/], I'm having a great time, and we're hiring [https://phrase.com/careers/jobs/] (and if you see something you like, apply! Just don't forget to tell them Vern sent you! 🙂) * 34:36 - People who help me think about testing (and life in general) * Angie (scroll up for the links!) * Ash Coleman Hynie's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ash-hynie/] (don't forget to check out the app she's building over at CountrPT [https://www.countrpt.io/]!) * Martin Hynie's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/whoisvds4/] (check out his new podcast The Ghost In Th Machine [https://martinhynie.substack.com/p/ghost-in-th-code] explaining AI!) * James Thomas's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/whoisvds4/] (he also has a wonderful blog [https://qahiccupps.blogspot.com/]) * 37:35 - Dean Moon * Dean's website [https://deanjmoon.com/] * Dean's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/deanjmoon/] * 37:35 - Jit Gosai * Jit's blog [https://www.jitgo.uk/]  * Jit's Quality Engineering Newsletter [https://qualityeng.substack.com/]  * Jit's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jitgo/] * 48:47 - Our influences * Vernon * Diary Of A CEO [https://www.youtube.com/@TheDiaryOfACEO] (DOAC) * Modern Wisdom [https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisWillx] * Owner Nation [https://www.youtube.com/@CodieSanchezCT/featured] * Big Deal [https://www.youtube.com/@PodcastBigDeal] * Same As Ever [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Same-Ever-Timeless-Lessons-Opportunity-ebook/dp/B0C4B5D541/] by Morgan Housel * Things I need to go back and binge * AB Testing [https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/abtesting/] podcast * Quality Talks [https://qualitytalks.co.uk/podcast] podcast * Testing Peers [https://testingpeers.com/] podcast * Richard * Engineering Quality [https://www.engineeringqualitypodcast.com/home] podcast * Secrets Of Consulting [https://leanpub.com/b/secretsofconsulting] by Jerry Weinberg * Explore It! [https://pragprog.com/titles/ehxta/explore-it/] by Elisabeth Hendrickson * Thinking, Fast and Slow [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0141033576/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0] by Daniel Kahneman * Agile Testing [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Agile-Testing-Practical-Addison-Wesley-Signature/dp/0321534468/] and More Agile Testing [https://www.amazon.co.uk/More-Agile-Testing-Addison-Wesley-Signature/dp/0321967054/] both by Lisa Crispin and Janet Gregory * 57:03 - Rachel Mlota * Rachel's YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@RachelMlota/featured] * Rachel's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-mlota-04b518205/] 00:00 - Intro 00:46 - Welcome (Tiredness, Sleeper walls, sweaty chilli, and strongman training) 05:59 - QUESTION (Observation? Comment? Ramble? Whatever it is, thanks Olly!): How important is social media and community interaction to testing? 06:46 - Vernon's experience of social media over the years 08:30 - The impact of the "Influencer" phenomenon on testing 09: 59 - The golden age of Testing Twitter 10:57 - What LinkedIn can't replace 12:10 - The LinkedIn algorithm is weird! 13:15 - Algorithm anxiety and the overthinking spiral 15:45 - Community: planned vs organic 17:24 - Lurkers, reactors, and why it still counts 18:04 - To be or not to be... an influencer? 20:07 - Rich reflects on the impact of social media on him and testing 24:00 - Vern reflects on the impact of social media on him and testing 25:35 - The power of sharing with purpose (not just promoting yourself) 27:19 - QUESTION (From Olly): There seems to be a push to create content. What do you think about that? 30:12 - What is "content" anyway? 31:09 - Angie's 1-2-punch for content creation (that we should all copy!) 32:39 - Do you know why you're posting in the first place?! 33:23 - The impact of talking about testing (it's not just about "likes") 37:35 - Rabbiting on about writing 40:31 - Talking vs Doing 41:12 - Goal confusion & content fatigue 44:20 - Now that we mention it, what are OUR goals for content and social media?! 48:47 - QUESTION: What podcasts do you listen to, what books do you read, and do any of them influence what you'd like to do with the show? 57:20 - Where are we taking the podcast? 58:24 - Is Salesforce as dull as Rich thinks? 59:35 - Outro

In this episode of the Vernon Richard Show, Vernon and Richard discuss various topics, including personal updates, mental health, the role of gatekeeping in quality assurance, mentoring experiences, and effective onboarding strategies. They emphasise the importance of community support, advocating for mental health awareness, and the nuances of being a gatekeeper in professional settings. The conversation also delves into the dynamics of mentoring, the significance of setting clear goals, and the art of making suggestions in new environments. 00:00 - Intro 01:06 - Where have we been for a month? 06:16 - Men's Mental Health 09:46 - The Questions! 10:10 - QUESTION: To gate-keep, or not to gate-keep? That is the question from Deb Sherwood 22:05 - Olly impersonates Emily 22:33 - QUESTION: Mentorship advice 27:25 - Coaching vs Mentoring 28:10 - Vern's good and bad with experiences mentoring 28:57 - What role does accountability play in this? 29:38 - Informal mentoring 30:48 - Rich shares his experience mentoring a colleague 31:46 - Rich's good and bad experiences with mentoring 33:44 - Putting 💰 on the line 35:45 - Energy Vampires 🧛🏾 37:16 - The upside of being a mentor 39:17 - QUESTION: Onboarding into a new team or to a new product 40:40 - Rich's two-step process when he's in this situation 43:50 - Vern's kids teach him a valuable communication technique 45:24 - "Asking" & "Suggesting" 48:28 - The danger of suggesting things blindly 51:15 - Leadership inception 54:40 - Outro Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod: * 06:16 - Manchester Tech Festival * The MTF Mixer [https://www.linkedin.com/events/7320816501609897984/comments/]: Male Mental Health featuring * Kofi Josephs * Kofi's website [https://www.whynoti.co.uk/] for Why Not I * Kofi's Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/dejkoaf/] * Kofi's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/kofi-josephs/] * Jamie Lee Dennis * Jamie's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-lee-dennis-37a1a2136/] * Jamie's website [https://www.mandemmeetup.org/] for Mandem Meetup * Dmitry Leyko * Dmitry's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmitry-leyko-ba800715a/] * James Davies * James' LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesedavies/] * 08:56 - Vern's travels * Frankfurt [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt] for German Testing Days [https://www.germantestingday.info/2024] with Beren Van Daele [https://www.linkedin.com/in/berenvd/] * RiskStorming Online [https://riskstormingonline.com/] * Prague [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague] to meet my Phrase teammates * Manchester Tech Festival [https://www.linkedin.com/company/manchester-tech-festival/posts/?feedView=all] in... Manchester [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester]! * Zurich [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurich] for GreaTest Conference [https://www.greatestquality.ch/] * Liverpool [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool] to celebrate Liverpool FC [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_F.C.] winning the Premier League! * 10:10 - Deb Sherwood * Deb's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborahsherwood/] * 15:37 - Jobs To Be Done (JTBD) * Courtesy of Perplexity [https://www.perplexity.ai/search/8775b9ef-f579-4789-9e5e-09b9ea6276f4], here are some references you might find useful that explain the JTBD concept * 25:00 - S.M.A.R.T. [https://www.perplexity.ai/search/de7f36fe-95bc-4a84-bd3d-5eeda0727b93] goals * 27:25 - The coaching vs mentoring rabbit hole [https://www.perplexity.ai/search/f1e10cf9-6c8b-44be-be2c-c0896f4e3819] on earlier episodes * 29:13 - Ryan Cox * Ryan's website [https://coxcoaching.co/] (if you check him out, tell him Vern sent you!) * Ryan's LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanleecox/] * 35:45 - The Software Testers Journey [https://leanpub.com/testersjourney] book, written by Nicola Lindgren [https://nicolalindgren.com/] and me * 40:30 - Automation in Testing references [https://www.perplexity.ai/search/96316ca9-ada8-4434-8a59-dadb3ac21af9] (via Perplexity) * 41:18 - Resources about the 10 Ps of Testability * Article on testability [https://teatimewithtesters.com/untangling-testability/?t] featuring the 10 Ps * The book Team Guide to Software Testability [https://confluxbooks.com/books/team-guide-to-software-testability?t] by Ash Winter [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ash-winter/] & Rob Meaney [https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-meaney-a6aa5819/]

Summary In this engaging conversation, Vernon and Richard celebrate Liverpool's recent football victory while seamlessly transitioning into a discussion about automation in testing. They explore the definitions of automation, the importance of having a unified codebase for tests, and the challenges of choosing the right programming language for testing tools. The duo emphasizes the significance of collaboration between developers and testers, the need for regular review of tests, and the impact of context on decision-making in automation. The conversation is filled with insights and practical advice for anyone involved in software testing. In this conversation, Vernon and Richard explore the complexities of development and testing, focusing on the importance of language consistency, the role of developers in testing culture, and the challenges of tool standardization. They discuss the perception of automation skills in the industry, the distinction between coding and technical skills, and the need for context in automation. The conversation also touches on the future of AI in development and the balance between technical skills and automation. Finally, they share upcoming events and opportunities for community engagement. * AI Generated show notes 00:00 Football Triumphs and Rivalries 01:43 Diving into Automation 04:28 Understanding Automation in Testing 05:58 Frameworks and Code Repositories 08:29 The Role of Developers in Automation 11:08 Challenges in Automation Implementation 13:11 Best Practices for Test Code Management 19:13 Building Communication Between Components 21:13 Understanding Context and Testability 23:21 The Dilemma of Skipping Tests 25:29 The Importance of Test Review and Discipline 27:55 Navigating Commercial Pressures in Testing 29:32 The Complexity of Automation in Different Languages 42:16 The Misconception of Technical Skills in Automation 45:45 The Automation Misconception 48:44 Technical Skills vs. Coding Skills 52:32 Understanding the Role of Automation 56:01 The Future of Testing in an AI World 59:46 The Value of Critical Thinking in Testing 01:03:36 Navigating the Job Market as a Tester 01:08:48 Upcoming Events and Community Engagement

In this episode, Richard and Vernon discuss various aspects of job stability in the tech industry post-pandemic, the impact of innovation on job longevity, and the dynamics of accidental management. They explore the changing landscape of tech roles, the importance of ratios between developers and testers in projects, and the evolving nature of go/no-go decisions in software releases. The conversation emphasizes the need for clear metrics and standards to facilitate smoother decision-making processes in tech teams. 00:00 - Intro 01:07 - Welcome to the Vernon Richard Emily Show 01:35 - Our viral moment 03:07 - Question: Do you think people are staying in tech jobs longer since the pandemic? The old time in role used to be about 2 years right? 17:00 - Income worries and diversification 20:20 - Question: I see loads of developers become accidental managers, but i don't think that's as common for testers - what do you think? 23:40 - Can Testing specialists become Engineering Managers (and beyond)? 26:06 - How does being a Quality Engineer impact your chances? 28:25 - Lived experience vs coaching 31:08 - We're already doing management and leadership 32:19 - What career paths are open to people with a testing background? 33:59 - Question: Do you think there is a good target ratio of dev:test professionals in greenfield projects? Brownfield projects etc. If not, what sort of thing do you think that depends on? 34:40 - It depends! On the project demands 35:20 - It depends! On what kind of people are in the team 37:10 - It depends! On testability 37:33 - And Rich's answer is... 39:19 - Sometimes you can't coach your way out of a situation 40:50 - It depends! On what good looks like 41:25 - It depends! On where the company is in it's life 44:35 - Question: My team release software to customers 1-2 times a week. Who do you think should be in that "go/no go" conversation? 46:46 - It depends 🤦🏾‍♂️ 48:16 - go/no go meetings in 2002 versus 2025 Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod: * 01:35 - Our most viral video to date * It's the short Sometimes it's best to quit your job [https://youtube.com/shorts/PHuDbmbnMB0] * 05:02 - Gary Stevenson, economist, trader, author * Gary's website [https://www.wealtheconomics.org/] * Gary's YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@garyseconomics] "Gary's Economics" * Gary's book [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trading-Game-Confession-Gary-Stevenson/dp/0241636604] "The Trading Game" * 13:02 - Graham Freeburn * Happy retirement [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/graham-freeburn-fbcs-461741_im-happy-to-share-that-im-starting-a-new-activity-7312783691351552001-pApp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAACJLG0BQTHTewSrvVgR_kl1D1z_Hk0JA_g] Graham! * 17:00 - Here's the phrase [https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/idioms-that-come-from-chickens-chicken-phrases/put-all-your-eggs-in-one-basket] Vernon butchered and what he was trying to convey [https://www.perplexity.ai/search/how-would-you-interpret-this-s-AEFlyf6mQO66fTKGZCZJUA] * 28:41 - The definition of coaching * The International Coaching Federation (ICF) define coaching as: "Partnering with clients in a thought-provoking and creative process that inspires them to maximize their personal and professional potential." * Here's Vernon explaining it during a presentation [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08HL43bdDDo&t=490s&ab_channel=VernonRichards] at Agile Testing Days * 37:10 - Resources about the 10 Ps of Testability * Article on testability [https://teatimewithtesters.com/untangling-testability/?t] featuring the 10 Ps * The book Team Guide to Software Testability [https://confluxbooks.com/books/team-guide-to-software-testability?t] by Ash Winter [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ash-winter/] & Rob Meaney [https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-meaney-a6aa5819/]