Never the Same

Fairness for People with Mental Illness in Criminal Justice with Dr. Daniel Murrie

In this episode of Never the Same, Dr. Tony Pisani sits down with Daniel Murrie, a professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia and director of the Institute for Law, Psychiatry and Public Policy. Daniel is one of the most cited researchers in forensic psychology, best known for a landmark study that challenged a foundational assumption in his field: that experts retained by opposing legal sides can remain objective. However, the answer is more complicated.  They explore what forensic psychology actually is, what it’s like to sit across from someone facing the death penalty, why the US is in the middle of a “competency crisis,” and how a field changes its mind. Guest Bio: Daniel Murrie is a professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia, where he directs the Institute for Law, Psychiatry and Public Policy. He is a leading researcher in forensic psychology, with extensive work on evaluator bias, competency assessment, capital cases, and the intersection of mental illness and the justice system. He has served as a court-appointed special master in Colorado, helping the state address its competency crisis. Referenced Resources:  * Competency to stand trial — the 1960 Supreme Court case Dusky v. United States [https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/362/402/] * Competency to stand trial evaluations: A state-wide review of court-ordered reports [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32012335/] * Not guilty by reason of insanity [https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/not_guilty_by_reason_of_insanity]  * Are forensic experts biased by the side that retained them? [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23969777/] * Evaluations of competence to stand trial are evolving amid a national "competency crisis." [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37056195/] * Bird by Bird by Anne Lamont  [https://www.amazon.com.au/Bird-Instructions-Writing-Life/dp/0385480016]

What Jazz, Social Work, and AI Have in Common with Dr. Jonathan Singer

In this episode of Never the Same, Dr. Tony Pisani sits down with Jonathan Singer, a social work professor at Loyola University, co-author of Suicide in Schools, and past president of the American Association of Suicidology.  Jonathan is also the creator of The Social Work Podcast [https://socialworkpodcast.blogspot.com/], which he started in 2007 while teaching as a doctoral student. He thought “25 people would listen,” but by the end of the semester, there had been over 3000 downloads, from 80 countries. They explore how jazz improvisation shaped Jonathan’s approach to therapy and collaboration, why schools with fewer suicides pay attention to “weak signals,” and what postvention can look like after a student suicide death. Guest Bio Jonathan Singer is a social work professor at Loyola University and the co-author of Suicide in Schools. He is the past president of the American Association of Suicidology. Jonathan is also the host and creator of the Social Work Podcast. Referenced Resources  * The Social Work Podcast [https://socialworkpodcast.blogspot.com/] * Suicide in Schools: A Practitioner's Guide to Multi-level Prevention, Assessment, Intervention, and Postvention   [https://www.amazon.com.au/Suicide-Schools-Practitioners-Multi-level-Intervention/dp/0367141701] * Suicide Contagion Explainer  [https://headspace.org.au/assets/School-Support/Suicide-contagion-web.pdf] * Universal Suicide Risk Screening in Schools: Outcomes from 9 Years of Implementation [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12310-025-09803-9] * Life Under Pressure: The Social Roots of Youth Suicide [https://www.amazon.com.au/Life-under-Pressure-Social-Suicide/dp/0190847840]  * Cook County real-time suicide data dashboard [https://maps.cookcountyil.gov/medexammaps/?page=Case-Archive-Dashboard] * Johns Hopkins COVID dashboard [https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data]

Serving Those Who Serve: First Responder Chaplain Steve Wickham

In this moving conversation, Dr Tony Pisani speaks with Steve Wickham, a workplace health and safety professional, chaplain, and writer. Steve shares his remarkable journey from his early days as a tradesman in Western Australia, through personal trials of grief, loss, and recovery, to his current roles supporting first responders and families. With honesty and warmth, Steve opens up about the people who shaped his path, the importance of kinship and purpose, and the lessons he has learned from decades of walking alongside others in crisis. His reflections highlight the power of presence, humility, and hope in the face of life’s deepest challenges. Guest Bio:  Steve Wickham is a chaplain, pastor, and writer based in Western Australia. He began his career as a tradesman before moving into health and safety in 1997, working for decades as a safety professional. Today, he serves as a part-time chaplain with the Department of Fire and Emergency Services and Children and Families Pastor at a Baptist church.  Referenced Resources:  * The Entitlement Cure — Dr John Townsend [https://www.amazon.com.au/Entitlement-Cure-Finding-Success-Things/dp/0310330521] * Heartfelt (Australia) — photography and support for families experiencing stillbirth and infant loss [https://www.heartfelt.org.au/who-we-are/who-is-heartfelt#:~:text=Heartfelt%20is%20a%20volunteer%20organisation,serious%20or%20life%20threatening%20illness.] * EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing) [https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments/eye-movement-reprocessing] * Department of Fire and Emergency Services (WA) — wellness and chaplaincy support [https://www.dfes.wa.gov.au/about-us/family-support]

The Network Effect: Turning Protection into Connection

In this special episode of Never the Same, we share the full keynote address from host, Professor Tony Pisani, delivered at the Suicide Prevention Australia Conference. Professor Pisani explores how the structure of our relationships—not just how supported we feel—can protect people from suicide risk. Drawing on studies in schools, the military, and health settings, he shows how strong, shared connections make a difference, especially when people don’t or can’t speak up. He introduces the Connect Program, a group-based training that strengthens team cohesion and reduces suicide risk without needing people to self-identify. The episode also includes real-world examples from Western Australia and beyond. It explores not only the importance of social structure in prevention, but HOW we can build those networks.  Key Points Covered * Why social structure matters in suicide prevention * The power of shared trusted adults in reducing suicide risk * How Connect builds protective networks * Insights from high school and military research * Shifting suicide reviews from blame to learning * Local examples from Western Australia, including first responder initiatives and postvention pilots 🔗 Resources Mentioned * SafeSide Prevention: https://safesideprevention.com.au [https://safesideprevention.com.au] * Connect Program: WA Workplace Connect info page [https://safesideprevention.com.au/program/connect] * Never the Same podcast home: Podcast page [https://safesideprevention.com.au/podcast/never-the-same]

Leadership Reflections—Western Australia Chief Psychiatrist Nathan Gibson, Mental Health Commissioner Maureen Lewis

In this episode of "Never the Same," Tony Pisani sits down with two of Western Australia's leading mental health voices: Maureen Lewis, Mental Health Commissioner since 2023, and Dr. Nathan Gibson, Chief Psychiatrist since 2013. Together, they represent both the vision for reform and the clinical guardrails of accountability in Western Australia’s mental health system. The conversation explores their unique roles in the mental health landscape, from commissioning services to regulatory oversight. They share insights on strategic leadership, including frameworks for crisis decision-making and the importance of "thinking time" in complex systems. The discussion covers First Nations mental health approaches, the integration of lived experience voices, and their shift toward trauma-informed care. Both leaders reflect on their accidental paths to leadership, the challenges of managing a mental health system across one of the world's largest geographic health services, and what gives them hope for the future. Their candid discussion offers valuable lessons for anyone interested in systemic change and leadership in challenging environments. Guests: Maureen Lewis was appointed Mental Health Commissioner for Western Australia in July 2023. In this role, she oversees the commissioning of all mental health and drug and alcohol services in Western Australia, a role that combines purchasing decisions with advocacy.  Dr. Nathan Gibson has served as Western Australia's Chief Psychiatrist since 2013. He provides independent regulatory oversight under the Mental Health Act. His focus includes standards of care, quality, safety, and reducing restrictive practices across public and private psychiatric services. Host Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities.