The Pivot

N.T. Wright: What If Christianity Got Heaven Completely Wrong?

What if the goal of the Christian life isn't to escape this world — but to welcome the next one into it? N.T. Wright, one of the world's foremost New Testament scholars and author of 87 books, joins Andrew Osenga on The Pivot for a conversation as warm and wide-ranging as it is theologically rich. Tom traces the arc of a life shaped by choir stalls in northeast England, Scripture Union camps in the Scottish Highlands, and a decades-long love affair with the Bible that has never stopped surprising him. He unpacks the central argument of his new book, God's Homecoming — that Christianity was never about souls escaping to heaven, but about heaven coming down to earth. Along the way, he reflects on what it means to hold your convictions with both conviction and humility, why personal transformation and theological understanding are more connected than we think.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "Most people today imagine that the point of Christianity is to go to heaven when you die. They are all wrong. The point of Christianity is not that we should go to heaven. The point of Christianity is that heaven should come to us." - N.T. Wright  "That's always been a sign for me that Christian maturity has, as one of its markers, the moment when texts you couldn't figure out before suddenly make sense — and you realize there's probably a lot more out there still waiting for us to grow into." - N.T. Wright "I think I'm a writer who happens to be in love with the Bible and theology." - N.T. Wright "But so I grew up in that atmosphere and the mantra really was, I will disagree like anything with you, but I will defend to the death your right to say what you say and to see the stuff like you see it." - N.T. Wright "You can't rush things as a theologian. You're working on a problem — and then gradually, gradually, you come around a corner, see things from a different light." - N.T. Wright   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: “God's Homecoming [https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Homecoming-Forgotten-Promise-Renewal/dp/006256417X/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=186429966876&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.7ocRFkU4W0_GAogGDDXmtrJqkDBkthH1HVcB9SIHwuuy_K85BY8MCMvLuZ1xRGSRKDh4WeY3MM7_wj3_nRycuzbdwCYLY593q3dU4BY1hHlY6jACIj5FPuDeocrTpcaYgmvelk_I_HoD1vtKO3AfWA.o1cNU2k6LlPAOwDDTojI90fhZilqRNUG8HI1uFCrZBw&dib_tag=se&hvadid=792918667589&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9008082&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=7577297414474749628--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=7577297414474749628&hvtargid=kwd-2469707575138&hydadcr=2931_13892005_2446146&keywords=n+t+wright+god%27s+homecoming&mcid=394826a7c30e3e39a019fe1f93b3d245&qid=1778082229&sr=8-1]” — N.T. Wright “Surprised by Hope [https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Hope-Rethinking-Resurrection-Mission/dp/0061551821]” — N.T. Wright “The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions [https://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Jesus-Two-Visions/dp/0061285544]” — N.T. Wright & Marcus Borg “Spellbound [https://www.amazon.com/Spellbound-Charisma-American-History-Puritans/dp/0593729005]” — Molly Worthen “Democracy and Solidarity [https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Solidarity-Cultural-Americas-Political/dp/0300274378]” — James Davison Hunter “Jesus and John Wayne [https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-John-Wayne-Evangelicals-Corrupted/dp/163149905X]” — Kristin Kobes Du Mez “The Samurai [https://www.amazon.com/Samurai-New-Directions-Classic/dp/0811213463]” — Shusaku Endo "Genesis" (Yesterday parody) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgV_RUcYack] — N.T. & Francis Collins Ask N.T. Wright Anything [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ask-nt-wright-anything/id1441656192] — N.T. Wright's podcast Biologos [https://biologos.org/] Lanier Theological Library [https://lanierlibraryandlearningcenter.org/] Yarntan Manor [https://yarntonmanor.org/] — theological library outside Oxford *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  N.T. Wright’s website [https://www.admirato.org/] N.T Wright’s Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/OfficialNTWright/] N.T. Wright’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/ntwrightonline/?hl=en] God’s Homecoming by N.T. Wright [https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Homecoming-Forgotten-Promise-Renewal/dp/006256417X]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop]   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].

Sissy Goff & David Thomas: The Five Skills Every Kid Needs

What if the thing we're most trying to protect our kids from is exactly what they need? Sissy Goff and David Thomas — children's therapists, co-hosts of Raising Boys and Girls, and founders of Daystar Counseling — join Andrew Osenga on The Pivot to talk about their new book Capable and the growing crisis of capability they're seeing in kids and teens. From the rise of anxiety and depression to kids who won't get their driver's license or text a new friend, Sissy and David break down what's going wrong, and more importantly, what parents can do about it. They talk about the five skills every kid needs, why stress and discomfort can be growth-giving, and how parents can stop getting in the way of the independence their kids are desperately craving. This is one of those conversations that will change how you parent starting today.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  "Kids learn that they're capable by experience."  - Sissy Goff "When I exercise, I don't get stronger unless I stress my muscles. The exact same thing is true of our souls." - David Thomas "You will experience some really, really hard things and loss will knock the wind out of you. And there will be something transformative on the other side if you allow that to happen." - David Thomas "The more connected kids are with their parents, the more healthy adults they grow into." - David Thomas "Parenting is so hard, and it is so important that we are encouraging each other, that we're cheering each other on." - Sissy Goff Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: www.RaisingBoysAndGirls.com [http://www.raisingboysandgirls.com] — Sissy and David's website “Capable [https://www.amazon.com/Capable-Strengths-Skills-Strategies-Resilience/dp/0764245325]” by Sissy Goff and David Thomas “I Am Capable [https://www.amazon.com/Capable-Unlocking-Strengths-Resilience-Confidence/dp/0764245333/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_1/146-5471330-8500509?pd_rd_w=vBgUB&content-id=amzn1.sym.dcf559c6-d374-405e-a13e-133e852d81e1&pf_rd_p=dcf559c6-d374-405e-a13e-133e852d81e1&pf_rd_r=JQBC6Z3G402SGTQP9Z7H&pd_rd_wg=0z1AY&pd_rd_r=d5554e75-3df1-400b-a5e2-9a505c680287&pd_rd_i=0764245333&psc=1]” — the companion workbook for “Capable” “The Daystar Dogs [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FPQKPZPC?binding=hardcover&ref=dbs_m_mng_rwt_sft_thcv_tkin]” book series by David Thomas and Sissy Goff  “Raising Boys and Girls” podcast [https://www.raisingboysandgirls.com/podcast?srsltid=AfmBOopcsFnj7RrZuxwvLic-4W5EE8QPjcVPcAcDnjrSB2YzURc6q8CS] by David Thomas and Sissy Goff Daystar Counseling Center [https://www.daystarcounseling.com/], Sissy and David's counseling practice in Nashville Hope Heals [https://hopeheals.com/] — the organization run by Jay and Katherine Wolf, who wrote the foreword to “Capable” Hopetown [https://www.daystarcounseling.com/hopetown] — Daystar's summer retreat program on Kentucky Lake *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.  Guest’s Links:  Raising Boys & Girls Website [https://www.raisingboysandgirls.com/] Raising Boys & Girls Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/raisingboysandgirls/?ref=hl#] Raising Boys & Girls Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/raisingboysandgirls/] Raising Boys & Girls YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@raisingboysandgirls] Raising Boys & Girls TikTok [https://www.tiktok.com/@raisingboysandgirls] Raising Boys & Girls Podcast [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/raising-boys-girls/id1366344369] Capable by Sissy Goff & David Thomas [https://www.amazon.com/Capable-Strengths-Skills-Strategies-Resilience/dp/0764245325] I Am Capable workbook by Sissy Goff & David Thomas [https://www.amazon.com/Capable-Unlocking-Strengths-Resilience-Confidence/dp/0764245333/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_1/146-5471330-8500509?pd_rd_w=vBgUB&content-id=amzn1.sym.dcf559c6-d374-405e-a13e-133e852d81e1&pf_rd_p=dcf559c6-d374-405e-a13e-133e852d81e1&pf_rd_r=JQBC6Z3G402SGTQP9Z7H&pd_rd_wg=0z1AY&pd_rd_r=d5554e75-3df1-400b-a5e2-9a505c680287&pd_rd_i=0764245333&psc=1]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop] *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with  Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/] .

Tim Timmons: Stop Working for God and Start Joining Him

Tim Timmons is a singer/songwriter, author, podcaster, pastor, cancer survivor, and—as of this year—the subject of a major motion picture. But this conversation isn’t really about the movie. It's about what it’s like to be Tim Timmons right now, in the middle of one of the busiest and most surreal seasons of his life. Andrew and Tim talk about what it means to stop working for God and start joining Him, why sorrow is a lot like manure (seriously), how Tim thinks about holding grief and gratitude at the same time, and what years of practicing obscurity have to do with the doors that are opening now. This one’s honest, funny, and surprisingly freeing—for anyone who’s ever tried to build their own little suburb in the kingdom of God.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  “I quit working for God and I said I'll never open a door again.” - Tim Timmons "Sorrow sobers us and gives us a perspective we've never had before." - Tim Timmons “My ministry is just being a re-presenter of the heart of God everywhere I am in the mundane and in the freaking awesome.” - Tim Timmons "Once I stop working for [God] and just start hanging out with Him, I just become more beautiful." - Tim Timmons   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Waking Up Again by Tim Timmons and Hilary Timmons [https://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Again-Journey-Gratitude-ebook/dp/B0GKG1SGHN] Tim's website [https://www.timtimmonsmusic.com] "I Can Only Imagine 2" [https://www.lionsgate.com/movies/i-can-only-imagine-2?utm_source=GoogleSearch&utm_medium=paidmedia&utm_campaign=ICanOnlyImagine2&utm_content=SEARCH3PTitleBroadPhraseExactTitleTermsNACONVCPCTitleRelease&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23643021964&gbraid=0AAAABCyq1YZ8oVpK1Bt7daIcQQU3zGy4r&gclid=CjwKCAjwnN3OBhA8EiwAfpTYekbv8qTunXCh4raE01O2sTOZ-L4qxhIc_88I3J0s7oxECjolOI9z4BoCpqMQAvD_BwE] — the movie Tim is featured in *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  Tim Timmons’ website [https://www.timtimmonsmusic.com] Tim Timmons’ Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/timmonsmusic] Tim Timmons’ Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/timmonsmusic] Tim Timmons’ X [https://x.com/timtimmons] Tim Timmons’ YouTube channel [http://www.youtube.com/@TimTimmons]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop]   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].

Dr. Curt Thompson: Overcoming Anxiety Through Connection

What if the problem isn’t that you don’t know enough, but that you’re trying to change alone? In this episode of The Pivot Podcast, Andrew sits down with psychiatrist and author Dr. Curt Thompson to explore the intersection of neuroscience, faith, and emotional healing. Together, they unpack why anxiety is often rooted in the feeling of being alone in our suffering and how real transformation happens through connection, not just information. Drawing from interpersonal neurobiology, Curt explains how relationships shape the brain and why healing from trauma, shame, and painful memories requires safe, consistent community.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  “Anxiety is ultimately about my perception that I am being left alone with myself in my suffering.” - Dr. Curt Thompson “We think information will transform us, but that’s not how the brain works.” - Dr. Curt Thompson “The brain becomes less anxious when it is connected to other people.” - Dr. Curt Thompson “It takes about less than three seconds for shame to encode… a remembered event of joy takes 60 to 90 seconds.” - Dr. Curt Thompson   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The Soul of Shame by Dr. Curt Thompson  [https://www.amazon.com/Soul-Shame-Retelling-Stories-Ourselves/dp/0830844333/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=187375748098&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.LIAcnKuCIDq19r7UcuI1WQCUQr7Xd8iEkEygGMC2IJtLXoAkpfKO_PVHiKKXc4jMqVUhhQCi_E0cqacoTGf3tkZ3d3gk1r0MB7DbJyG1WKMNzlYNFq6a80VbyHzjc_-6MMomzx4FvKfapMplOmzucDxcc-hw6IG4D2UPRzyAdo4.luRmIwAZR1O-lf5SZ9FQZs_vWdE-CD7iwNamNzL57wg&dib_tag=se&hvadid=779583776854&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9008082&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=16705091987070853607--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16705091987070853607&hvtargid=kwd-475569027317&hydadcr=8292_13544362_9586&keywords=curt+thompson+the+soul+of+shame&mcid=ef3d7f3a738f3ba1a64732128e7718f5&qid=1774579061&sr=8-1] The Soul of Desire by Dr. Curt Thompson [https://www.amazon.com/Soul-Desire-Discovering-Neuroscience-Community/dp/1514002108/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2N145CMBV25GZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.JfGQtrgU0oJzGzK3gTq1Ir2caVEi9n7G31Z1jP0u4MOJo9-AtkmNDCawI2Xi6tTRDObtuhUAmU6MntIHfcsNlwtL8Pl_yOVJD19hLdBVcWLGl4eDJmZ7ucasIBN0FNL88yswdtxaTpR271GaqHjVtA.e3cRd9TzYTCVelFF_KiecqzF4IxDwVbjm8jSiAro-As&dib_tag=se&keywords=curt+thompson+the+soul+of+desire&qid=1774579123&sprefix=curt+thompson+the+soul+of+desire%2Caps%2C127&sr=8-1] Center for Being Known [https://www.thecbk.org/], Dr. Curt Thompson’s organization   New Story Behavioral Health [https://www.newstorybehavioralhealth.com/], Dr. Curt Thompson’s clinical practice  *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  Curt Thompson’s Website [https://curtthompsonmd.com/] Curt Thompson’s Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/CurtThompsonMD] Curt Thompson’s Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/curtthompsonmd/] Curt Thompson’s X [https://x.com/curt_thompsonmd]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop]   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].

The Art of Dying with Dr. Lydia Dugdale

In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew Osenga sits down with physician and author Lydia Dugdale to explore the surprising wisdom found in confronting mortality. Drawing from her book The Lost Art of Dying, Lydia shares what centuries-old traditions, modern medicine, and her experiences as a doctor in New York City have taught her about death, dignity, and living well. From pandemic hospital tents to ancient reflections on the “art of dying,” this conversation wrestles with life’s biggest questions and invites listeners to consider how an awareness of our finite days can lead to a richer, more meaningful life.   Thought-Provoking Quotes:  “If you actually live your life aware of your finitude—aware that your days are numbered—then you live into the fullness of life in a different way.” - Lydia Dugdale “The idea is there’s an art of dying. There’s a way that we think about living well to the end so that we die well, but that doesn’t just happen right at the end.” - Lydia Dugdale “I thought that normal people talked about death because there’s nothing you can do about it. We’re all going to die, so you might as well anticipate it.” - Lydia Dugdale "It's just a fact of life. We're all gonna die—get over it—[so how] are you gonna lean into the fullness of life with that reality?" - Lydia Dugdale “I have taken care of enough patients who reach the end of their lives and they are scared out of their wits because they have never wrestled with these questions.” - Lydia Dugdale   Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The Lost Art of Dying by Lydia Dugdale [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-lost-art-of-dying-ls-dugdale] *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga]!   *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga.    Guest’s Links:  Lydia Dugdale’s Website [http://lydiadugdale.com/]   Connect with Andrew:  Website [https://www.andrewosenga.com/] YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/andrewosenga] Substack [https://andrewosenga.substack.com/] Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/artist/1lJC5MbTUW5ld4yXzNB0H4?si=vuopnKV5R_y6g9DsJCFFkQ&nd=1&dlsi=9019df9a594c4165] Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/AndrewOsenga/] Instagram [https://www.instagram.com/andrewosenga] How to Remember by Andrew Osenga [https://www.amazon.com/How-Remember-Forgotten-Pathways-Authentic/dp/0802435335/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1BVRHYSHGX6Q6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.cfTvUZiHWhP3oZ8pi-a5aI4S59mW-hhTLXwUQN0Keao.K_J5b2LL3RggEW7MDGaIq58GZ_SLHFfoj_igQKPfA9g&dib_tag=se&keywords=how+to+remember+by+andrew+osenga&qid=1753811176&sprefix=how+to+remember+by+%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1] Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga [https://shop.bandwear.com/collections/andrew-osenga-shop]   *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media [https://www.iiiimedia.com/].