Now That You See It

Embrace the Awkward: A Coach's Playbook for Speaking Up with Salvatore Manzi

Salvatore Manzi lost his voice on stage the first time he tried to speak publicly. His dad was a public speaker, and his mom facilitated large group events. It was obvious that he would also become a speaker and facilitator. The first time he stood in front of a room, he lost his voice and had to walk off stage, humiliated. That was the beginning of a 20-year project to help himself and others use their voice clearly and compellingly. He's most excited to work with people who struggle to use their voice: analytical thinkers, introverted leaders, and other people who have brilliant ideas and genuinely struggle to get those ideas across in ways that move other people. This is a wide-ranging conversation. Salvatore outlines two distinct roots of imposter syndrome in public speaking: a negative experience that taught your nervous system public speaking is dangerous, and a lifetime of conditioning that people like you don't get a voice in rooms like this. We cover practical tools like using space, silence, and stillness to communicate more powerfully and hold people's attention. We cover nuances like the anticipatory pause and how most people are pausing in the wrong place. Pancho brings in the concept of vagal authority from polyvagal theory to reinforce Salvatore's practical tip to move 5% more slowly than the rest of the room. Kim shares about her own imposter story, including a toxic boss situation that had an entire team convinced the problem was them individually, until someone passed around a book. The closing idea is the one worth sitting with. If you can see something extraordinary in someone else, that recognition means you already have some version of it in you. The gap is to step into that capacity yourself. Once you see that imposter feelings aren't a sign something is wrong with you but a signal you're growing, you can't unsee it. Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources * Clear and Compelling by Salvatore Manzi: his book on communication strategies for leaders, available for pre-order https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/clear-and-compelling-salvatore-manzi/1148510383?ean=9798895740347 [https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/clear-and-compelling-salvatore-manzi/1148510383?ean=9798895740347] * Taming Your Gremlins by Rick Carson * Aforemations by Noah St. John * Multipliers by Liz Wiseman * Carol Dweck's growth mindset research * Polyvagal theory and vagal authority * Chase Hughes, behavioral scientist: referenced for the principle of moving 5% slower than anyone else in the room * Byron Katie's The Work * Why The Brain Loves Stories - https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_stories_change_brain [https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_stories_change_brain]

You Can't Stop Comparing. So Do It Better

"Comparison is the thief of joy" is one of those phrases that gets repeated so often that we take it to be rock-solid wisdom. Pancho calls BS. Comparison is not the thief of joy. As a matter of fact, it's not a problem at all. It's one of the most fundamental tools the human mind uses to understand anything, including itself. Without it, there's no sense of self, no theory of mind, no way to distinguish what you want from what you need. There would be no way to notice differences between anything. The idea that you could or should stop comparing is wrong, and it misses the point entirely. What actually steals joy is what we do after we compare. The stories we tell ourselves about what the comparison means. That's what causes the resentment that builds when we can't get what somebody else has. We lose joy when we compare ourselves to other people's highlight reels and take it to mean something about our worth. This episode covers René Girard's theory of mimetic desire, the idea that most of our wants don't come from within. We want things because other people want them too (or already have them and are shoving your face in it). Peter Thiel understood this when he invested in Facebook within an hour of meeting Zuckerberg. Instagram runs on mimetic desire. Commercials and ads wouldn't work without mimetic desire. Kim and Pancho also get into social comparison theory, the difference between envy and jealousy, and the consequences of upward and downward comparison. We then talk about what to do instead. Spoiler: it's gratitude, and yes, it's annoying that gratitude seems to be a cure-all to many of the problems we talk about. Comparison isn't the problem. Evaluating our worth or success by comparing it with others is the problem. and unconsciously adopting other people's desires without recognizing what we're doing is the problem. Concepts Explored * Mimetic desire via René Girard: we want what other people want, not what we authentically choose for ourselves * Social comparison theory: in the absence of objective measures, we default to measuring ourselves against other people * Envy vs. jealousy: envy is wanting what someone else has, jealousy is fearing the loss of what you already have * Upward and downward comparison: how each can either inspire or quietly erode your sense of self Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources * René Girard's mimetic desire theory: the philosophical framework at the center of this episode; search "René Girard mimetic desire" for lectures and interviews * Peter Thiel and Facebook: Thiel was a student of Girard at Stanford and applied mimetic desire theory to his investment thesis; his book Zero to One touches on this directly * Atomic Habits by James Clear: referenced for the idea of surrounding yourself with people who model the behaviors you want to adopt * Sonder: the concept, referenced by Kim, that other people have rich inner lives just like yours; originally coined in The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows by John Koenig

If You Can't Take Time Off Is Something Wrong With You?

Kim took a real vacation. For what she believes is the first time in her adult life. The ones before were those "vacations" where the laptop comes out on the beach. They were weeks of checking email only five times a day while everyone else looked on in confusion. This time, it was a full, committed, nothing-on-the-calendar week where she said no to a job offer, canceled future plans to go to a conference, and let her kids make a documentary about Chinese food and hiking. This episode is a conversation about what it actually takes to disconnect from work when your work feels like a calling, not just a job. Kim sorts through beliefs that kept her in this cycle of not-vacationing. Kim pressure-tests the sneaky ones that sound responsible, and shares what finally broke her open to doing it differently. Pancho, who has never had this problem, brings a perspective that is alternately baffling and clarifying for Kim: he doesn't vacation to recover from work, he vacations because there are things outside of work worth planning eight months in advance. Without planning it, this conversation expands both of our understandings of what it means to take a vacation. It gets into identity, leadership, what it means to tie your sense of self to your job title, and why that's a problem whether you're a burnout coach or someone in leadership. Once you see that you are the asset and no one else can replace you if you run yourself into the ground, you can't unsee it. Concepts Explored Toxic productivity vs. genuine vocation: why loving your work makes it harder, not easier, to rest Identity and work: what happens when your job is also your sense of self The vacation sensation: heart rate variability, nervous system safety, and what ease actually feels like in the body Leadership modeling: how the way you vacation shapes the culture your team builds around rest and autonomy Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources Masters of Change by Brad Stulberg: referenced in the previous episode on allostasis and change; relevant here for the idea of building stability through intentional recovery cycles Daniel Kahneman's narrative self vs. experiencing self: referenced by Pancho when discussing whether you're actually enjoying your life, not just proud of the story you tell about it Now That You See It, Episode 28: Six Habits of the Best Bosses: the relational leadership episode referenced directly in this conversation Kim's burnout resilience newsletter and upcoming audio series: where the tactical vacation checklist lives; find Kim at kimpaull.com [http://kimpaull.com]

Should I Give Up On My Dream? Live Coaching Session

Pancho came into this episode without a ready-made insight. He came in with a problem, angst, and some half-baked thoughts. He's building a coaching practice in an economy that isn't generous to people just starting out. The feedback from clients, platforms, and recruiters is overwhelmingly positive, but his business bank account tells a different story. Somewhere in that gap, there's a frustration that doesn't quite fit the issues most people face in similar scenarios. It's not imposter syndrome or toxic productivity; it's harder to pin down and more personal. This episode is a live coaching session. Kim coaches Pancho through the paradoxical tension of failing while succeeding. They name it for what it actually is, to trace it back to the values being threatened, to find a way to hold the situation more loosely. Grief surfaces - disillusionment. The specific pain of finding the thing you believe you're here to do, only to have forces outside your control make it feel precarious. Pancho compares it to planting an orchard and watching the seedlings die. They highlight his value in optimizing for freedom and the sudden feeling of being boxed in as a result. And Pancho recognizes he's walking the line between arguing with reality and actually seeing it clearly. Though nothing about his situation changes by the end of the conversation, there's a noticeable internal shift. Once you see how hard it is to get out of your own head without another person to help, you can't unsee it. Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources * The Overstory by Richard Powers: the novel Pancho references, about trees, generations, and the long arc of living things * Andrea Gibson, poet: quoted by Pancho, "Even when the truth isn't hopeful, the telling of it is"; andreadgibson.com [http://andreadgibson.com] * Now That You See It ep. 26 - Adulting 103: Is It Anxiety or My Personality?: the episode on imposter syndrome, toxic productivity, and related concepts referenced in this conversation * Now That You See It ep. 29 - How to Navigate Change You Didn't Choose episode: the unwanted change episode referenced directly in this conversation, on allostasis, resistance, and finding a new baseline

How To Navigate Change You Didn't Choose

Kim read a book she couldn't stop taking notes on. Pancho pushed back on one of its central ideas. What followed was a conversation in which we're not quite sure if we agree. The book is Masters of Change by Brad Stulberg, and the thing Kim can't unsee is this: when you're in change you didn't choose, there are ways through it that don't require becoming a different person or pretending you're fine. The concept at the center of it is allostasis, stability through change, the idea that after real disruption, you don't return to who you were. You arrive at a new baseline. And there's a window, documented and finite, right after everything falls apart, where you actually get to influence what your baseline looks like. Kim connects this to her work in health equity and the concept of weathering, how chronic stress physically ages the body, and what that means for who gets to recover well from life's upheavals and who doesn't. Pancho connects it to his own experience of getting laid off, moving into his truck at 24, and what it means to optimize for freedom in a way that makes certain kinds of loss feel less like loss. The disagreement is about suffering. The book defines suffering as time multiplied by resistance (suffering = time x resistance). Pancho isn't sure that's fair, because resistance might be inevitable. Calling suffering optional might just be setting people up to judge themselves for being human. They don't fully resolve it. But they get somewhere more honest than where they started. Referenced & Recommended Ideas / Resources * Masters of Change by Brad Stulberg: the book that prompted this episode, on navigating change you didn't choose; bradstulberg.com [http://bradstulberg.com] * The concept of weathering, via Arlene Geronimus: how chronic stress physically ages the body; search "Arlene Geronimus weathering" for her research * The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg: the Target pregnancy algorithm story referenced in the episode * Atomic Habits by James Clear: Kim brought it up, thinking about Charles Duhigg's work. Worth mentioning, since together they are arguably the best two books on habits written in the past 20 years. * Andrea Gibson, poet: quoted directly by Pancho: "Even when the truth isn't hopeful, the telling of it is"; andreadgibson.com [http://andreadgibson.com]