Workforce Therapy Files

Why HR Is Still Misunderstood in Business Leadership?

File 37: In this file of Workforce Therapy Files, the hosts turn the spotlight on Jamie Swaim to explore her journey into human resources and leadership strategy. Jamie discusses why HR is often misunderstood in executive spaces and explains the difference between reactive HR support and proactive people strategy. They explore workforce planning, compliance challenges, and the growing complexity of managing people across multiple states and industries. The discussion highlights the importance of ambiguity management, resourcefulness, and cross-functional thinking for modern HR leaders. The group reflects on how meaningful relationships, mentorship, and practical experience have shaped Jamie's approach to leadership. The conversation reinforces the idea that strong HR strategy is deeply connected to business success and organizational trust. Key Themes: · Beyond the Support Desk: Why Executives Misunderstand HR · Proactive Workforce Planning: Scaling Without Surprises · The State-Line Trap: Navigating Multi-State Compliance Risks · From Middle School Passion to HR "Encyclopedia" · The Three Pillars of Modern HR: Ambiguity, Resourcefulness, and Empathy · Real Talk Over Theory: The Inspiration Behind Parcel Episode Transcript Jason Heflin: Welcome back to the Workforce therapy files. Today we're doing something really fun. It's the final in our series of interviewing the founders of our podcast. And we got Jamie Swain, one of my favorite people. Jamie Swaim: CEO. Jason Heflin: CEO. President. Supreme Leader. Molley Ricketts: Grand Poo-bah. Jason Heflin: Grand Poo-bah. Jamie Swaim: That's my personal preference. I'm just kidding. Jason Heflin: So thanks for being here today and taking some time out of your busy schedule. Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Jason Heflin: Absolutely. I'm going to kick it off with some questions for your if you're ready. Jamie Swaim: I'm ready. Jason Heflin: Okay. So this is us interviewing Jamie as if we just didn't even know her. Molley Ricketts: Okay. Beyond the Support Desk: Why Executives Misunderstand HR Jason Heflin: So we may know some of the answers to these, but going to, I bet we're going to be surprised. Jamie, why is HR still misunderstood in the executive room? Jamie Swaim: I think it's because the day-to-day interactions before you become an executive with HR are support focused. They're compliance focused, and the further the individuals go in the HR space, the more it's strategy focused. And sometimes people ascend to the executive space before they've ever seen HR as a strategy. I think that's the biggest issue. And so they still want to interact as like, Hey, can you pull this report for me? Can you file this for me? Instead of, can you help me think through how our people will be impacted by this business need or this projected route that my company is going to go down? I think that's the biggest area that's misunderstood. Jason Heflin: Yeah, that's good. And it's true. I mean, it's easy to get disconnected or not be connected in the first place. Well, what's the difference between HR support and people strategy? Jamie Swaim: Yeah. I think the biggest difference is that support's in the moment largely it is reacting to what the challenges of right now and appropriate behavior, performance concern bubbled up. How do I help you through this navigate this tricky water moment that you're experiencing right now? Strategy to me is how do I make sure that the things we're putting in place right now align to where you want the company to go, but it takes being partners in that and understanding where companies want to go to be able to put strategies in place. Jason Heflin: Would you say it's proactive thinking over reactive thinking? Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. Jason Heflin: So I'm going to go off script a little bit. Jamie Swaim: That's fine. Proactive Workforce Planning: Scaling Without Surprises Jason Heflin: What's a quick thing that people can do to be better at that, to be better at that strategic long-term planning and thinking. Jamie Swaim: In terms of people? Jason Heflin: In terms of their people, in terms of talent. Jamie Swaim: I think the biggest one for me is really creating a workforce plan. Every year, companies get together and they say, what are the goals that we're going to have for this year? What are the budgets we're going to have for this year? And sometimes those are the only two things that leaders will do together to plan for their company. And they're not thinking through what that means from a people perspective. So you get surprised things like, we need to hire 45 people because we're supposed to start this on Tuesday. You're like, gosh, I wish I'd known that whenever I was putting together my team for this year. And those kinds of things can't continue to happen. If you want a seamless execution, if you don't want to do things like we've cautioned on this podcast, like hiring quick or not building intentionality in how you scale and grow or contract. Even having conversations of like, I'm not really sure that based on our sales forecast that we're going to be able to sustain this workforce. Okay, well, here's our turnover number. Do we want to just let natural attrition happen and not backfill it? Or are there other things that we'd like to do? We can have conversations about that upfront that save you some of the things that you sacrifice and the trust that you have with the people that work there. The State-Line Trap: Navigating Multi-State Compliance Risks Jason Heflin: Yeah. Good. I'm going to use a scary word in this next one called compliance. We've been talking in my company a lot about compliance. There's a new Americans with Disabilities Act law coming into effect in April. All websites, government, healthcare, all the major service websites have to be ADA compliant. Molley Ricketts: How? Jamie Swaim: There's a lot of things. Molley Ricketts: How will they be ADA compliant? Jason Heflin: ADA compliance for websites is visual and audio. So if somebody has a visual disability or can't hear, and there's audio or video on the site. Jamie Swaim: Also color considerations. Jason Heflin: You have two similar colors of blue are sitting next to each other that are too close. People can't tell the difference. Different fonts, the readers can't read them to people. So anyway, that's a side journey. Molley Ricketts: Sorry, didn't know. Jamie Swaim: But we're all learning. Jason Heflin: But I've been talking about compliance half the day every day for the last few weeks. So it's scary. People are like, what comply I have to comply? Yes, yes. It's a minimum of $115,000 fine. So now are they going to, who knows if these compliances are going to be enforced or not? Somebody's going to have to call you out. Probably won't. But compliance is scary when people bring it up. So what's the biggest compliance risk companies are ignoring in the space of hiring and people and talent? Jamie Swaim: I think the biggest one from my perspective is when we're thinking about scaling and growth and ignoring the fact that compliance is bigger than just federal law. So every state in our country has a different set of requirements. And so, choosing to scale might also mean that you need to choose how you're going to support your organization with additional requirements. And it can't always be absorbed by the two people you gave to the HR team. So, you're in 45 states. Well, that might mean that I have two more people that are necessary just to be able to do the basics. And that's not counting the other meaningful things that the function can offer. And it's not just in HR. That's true for safety. It's true for finance requirements, tax laws, how the unemployment's set up, how workers' comp is set up. All of it is down to the state line. And I don't think companies always think about that, especially if founders or growing company CEOs have not worked in that space before. If they haven't hired an HR expert that they're spending time with, it may not be something that they pay attention to. The second one though, that is also something I stay with my head on pivot right now is immigration laws. It's a growing space, and for some industries, you got to stay really connected to it, especially in rural medical settings, agriculture, people with highly-skilled workforces where you've got individuals on a lot of visas. Paying attention to where we are from an immigration standpoint is going to be really important to make sure you have the right budgets and support to navigate it. Jason Heflin: And it doesn't have to be scary. Right? Jamie Swaim: It doesn't have to be scary. But here's the thing. We need to all accept the fact that the people that write these laws are not people that are executing the work. So they don't always write them in ways that are so clear that you're like, oh, okay, well that's step one. I understand that. And they don't always provide the tools to help you do it well. So finding someone who understands the ways that companies have bumped their heads on this is it's worth the time and it's worth the investment to have somebody that you can trust to help you navigate it. Molley Ricketts: Can I get an amen? Jamie Swaim: Thank you. From Middle School Passion to HR "Encyclopedia" Jason Heflin: Can I ask you another off-script question? I'm going to start with a compliment. So you are probably the most knowledgeable person when it comes to these type of topics, like the technicality of human resources. Jamie Swaim: That Jason knows. Jason Heflin: Yeah. So I don't know many, but no, but seriously, you really are. And whenever you dive into these things, it's like you could just keep going and keep going because you've seen so much. How did you learn all this? You're an encyclopedia. What's your backstory? This is about getting to know Jamie. So what's your backstory? How'd you get here? How did you become such a brainiac? Jamie Swaim: Actually, I think part of it is because I was born that way. No, I'm just kidding. I decided I was going to be in HR in middle school, which I know is not when a lot of people make those choices. Molley Ricketts: You were 12? Jamie Swaim: Yes. And I had a situation where one of my family members had applied for a position that they were already doing and had been doing it for six months and they didn't get the job. And then the person that was hired, they were asked to train. Molley Ricketts: Oh. Jamie Swaim: For months. For months. It was a promotion. And then the hiring manager asked that person if they ever planned on losing weight? And I don't know whether or not the decision to do that was connected, but there's no way that you would disconnect it, if you were somebody who was on the receiving end of that. And I remember being in middle school and being like, what a dumb way to make business decisions. So, when I got to high school, I had a whole conversation with my guidance counselor, because this is pre-internet, just so we're clear. I had a conversation with my guidance counselor and I said, I just want to be part of how do you influence these kinds of decisions so that they're not made based on things that don't actually drive value. And for some reason, this was very interesting to me. It's like I grew a passion about it. So, I got really involved in things like Junior Achievement and those kinds of things, and I just enjoyed learning about it. So then I was looking at a college, my guidance counselor said, there's two that we could find in Kentucky that had an HR track. It was just at the beginning of no longer calling it Personnel. And so we were moving into this HR space and here was the outlook. And I knew I wanted to affect business, but I didn't want to be an accountant and I didn't want to work in finance. And this really spoke to me because I really, I'm going to give you the generic thing that everybody who first gets started in HR says is I love people, but sorry, it gets on my nerves now. But at the beginning, that was how I felt too. I felt like, how can I help people? But then this is in the early parts of the internet to get started. I had this crazy CEO, and if you're listening to this, you know exactly who you are. Crazy CEO, who promoted me before I was ready. And he said, I'm going to give you two things. I'm going to give you an attorney that you can call. Shout out to Jim Smith, and I'm going to give you a consultant that you can use because I think you have the right heart and I think you have the right mind for things. But I know that there are going to be things that we're going to come across that you don't have experience to tackle. And I used those relationships in every possible way. I read every SHRM magazine. I dove into every piece of content that I could get to try to learn these things. I actually read the Family Medical Leave Act. My gosh, I ordered that. Jason Heflin: Nerd. Jamie Swaim: Right? Molley Ricketts: Totally. Jamie Swaim: I ordered it and the Fair Labor Standards Act, and I read it word for word because I thought I needed to. Okay. Which I don't know that you need to. Molley Ricketts: Not word for word. Jamie Swaim: There's stuff in there you don't even come across. But that's how I grew my knowledge around these things because I thought that's what it meant to be in HR. And this was before I started learning other things. Long answer, I think Jason, but… Jason Heflin: Good answer. Jamie Swaim: Thank you. I'm a nerd. I guess is if you wanted to underline something twice what the answer is. Molley Ricketts: But I love that nerdiness about you. Jamie Swaim: Thank you. Molley Ricketts: Because that means that someone like me, I can lean into you the same way that you leaned into those two people because I know you're going to be the best. Jamie Swaim: Thank you. Gosh. Molley Ricketts: So when you think about how far you've come and everything that you've experienced, and I know that I get to talk to you sometimes when I'm like, I don't know what the heck I'm supposed to be doing right now. And you're like, you know what? Let's talk through it. And I always love that about you. You give me the grace when sometimes you know that I know the answer, but you need to help me walk through it to find it together. Jamie Swaim: By the way, one of the biggest privileges I have in my life is to be behind the curtain with people before they take it and deliver it to someone else. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: It took me a while to get my head around it that way. So thank you for allowing me the opportunity to be with you behind the curtain. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, always. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. The Three Pillars of Modern HR: Ambiguity, Resourcefulness, and Empathy Molley Ricketts: So you've come through the ranks. You've lived like me through different seasons of what it means to be in HR. Started out as Personnel and HR and human capital. I think we went through a phase of that and gosh, I don't even know what else. Jamie Swaim: People. Now we're just a people. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. So, what capabilities do you think HR has to have now that maybe you didn't have to have 10 years ago? What capabilities must HR leaders have now or learn now, build now that you didn't have to 10 years ago, 5 years ago? Jamie Swaim: I'm going to say this because some of it is that I didn't know I needed it 10 years ago, but it probably was true then too. Jason Heflin: Okay. Jamie Swaim: I think the first is the ability to deal with ambiguity. And it's because nothing is predictable when you're dealing with people. Molley Ricketts: Never. Jamie Swaim: You can't judge somebody correctly just because you interviewed them for two hours. You can't judge somebody quickly because you worked with them for five years. When life circumstances shifted and you've never seen them through that season. You got to be real comfortable to be like, I have no idea how we're going to get through this and rely on the fact that, but you have before gotten through other things that you had no idea how you're going to get through that ability to deal with ambiguity, to say I don't know what I'm talking about right now, but I have the tools to learn more about it so that I can show up appropriately. I think that really matters. The second thing is I really lean into resourcefulness. And if I'm adding anybody on my team as a leader or a team member, I need to know that when you don't know something that you won't automatically fizzle, that you'll continue to be like, I am committed to figuring it out. Right? Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: I'm going to make a phone call. I'm going to look something up. I'm going, I'm not going to wait for somebody to be the authority on the topic. Right? I would rather you give me something to react to than to rely on me wholly to create it. That's what I look for. And the third is the ability to think in terms of the other person's seat as it relates to cross-functional capability. Molley Ricketts: That's deep. Jamie Swaim: I'm not a finance person, but I should care about what finance has to control. I should understand my impact on their work. I should care about how I manage my budget. I should be clear about what my needs are. I should understand why priorities are selected that aren't mine, but advocate for them effectively. I feel like it's appropriate for me to understand the challenges that my operational partners are up against, so that whenever I'm like, okay, but tomorrow we're going to start our performance review cycle and it's going to take you 15 hours to get stuff done in two days, well, that's not reflective of the life they're living. And I think there's a lot of ways that HR does that, where they put timelines or deadlines out there that, because the work is important, but it almost gets lost because it's impossible to execute. So I think you got to be thinking about how you're affecting other people and how you all have to work together in order to make great things happen. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. So you've been in corporate, you've been in small, you've been a medium… Jamie Swaim: Fortune 5. Molley Ricketts: Fortune 5. You've been a solopreneur. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Molley Ricketts: In that experience that you've had, what are the greatest relationships that you feel like you have to have for your position to make a move to be respected? So often the HR is the, oh, you have to go to the principal's office kind of thing. From your experience and where you sit, looking back on your knowledge, what has been the greatest relationship that you know have to have as soon as you go into an organization? Jamie Swaim: It depends on the industry, but finance and IT are the two places that I really care about building some connection because whether or not I have the funds to execute something, whether or not I fully understand the impact of my decisions on the business output and whether or not I have the right systems or tools to navigate it most efficiently, those relationships to me are really key, really key. But I think the biggest one is the leaders that are on my team. I need to know that we're walking right foot, left foot together, and that we're sharing a brand, that we are building something together that we could speak for each other in a way of like, no, I know that's what you heard, but I know that person so well that I'm wondering if we're missing a sliver. Because like I said, we're dealing with ambiguity every day. So I think having people that you know can trust is super important. Molley Ricketts: And what two great positions to acknowledge that you have to align with and get to know for your impact to be meaningful the way that you want it to throughout the organization. So, one of the things that I love to hear from other leaders like yourself, that started at the age of 12, what value do you think HR brings to the table and how do you bring that value in a way that helps everyone else see it? So it's not just HR and compliance and almost like you're the person that puts up the guardrails and tells me what I can't do. Jamie Swaim: That's right. Well, I think one of the values is almost every compliance expectation was created because companies were jerks. Okay> Molley Ricketts: Shout out to Eric Williamson [https://www.workforcetherapyfiles.com/podcast/the-power-of-emotional-intelligence-in-leadership-interview-with-eric-williamson/] there. Jamie Swaim: That's right. Shout out, Eric. And the big thing is, is that if I can understand the spirit and intent of why the law exists or why the regulation is required, and I can make sure that we are doing that compliance effectively, HR is already paid for itself because the risks, like the one that Jason talked about, is probably more than what it would take to navigate that. And that's true across the board. Everything else that we do is icing for the company Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: So if we are contributing new strategic thoughts, ways to approach something, ways to focus on things like transferable skills or that we know the people that work there so well that we're like, you've got that problem. Have you talked to so-and-so? Because we're connectors and the organization that get to know people, what makes their blood pump and what they like to work on and where their talents lie. There's magic that starts to happen there when that is cranking out, right? Which is why I think HR business partners that just that job title has grown so significantly. When I started, it was HR Generalist only, and that just meant they weren't going to staff a full HR team. So you were going to do all the things. Molley Ricketts: Jack of all trades. Jamie Swaim: Yes, that's right. But business partners that understand why those performance expectations matter, how that translates to your outcomes, understand the return on investment of the development activities they're suggesting because they understand where your team's going. Gosh, that's where absolute incredible work happens. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, that's great. So you told us a little bit about the reason why you started, and you've talked a lot about what you've learned and how you've grown within your position. So what advice would you give someone in middle school or maybe a little older that is considering the work that you do? What would you tell them today that you wish someone would've told you then? Jamie Swaim: I had no idea the steps I was going to have to take to be able to reasonably affect the things that were the inspiration behind me starting in this career. And I remember the first several years, the shock that when I got my first HR job that I wasn't even doing the stuff I did when I had an internship, I was doing data entry, I was tracking attendance. I was filing. There's nothing, not a moment when I was deciding what I was going to major in and go into debt for in college, where I was like, I sure hope I file. Molley Ricketts: And track attendance. Jamie Swaim: And track attendance. But the biggest thing for me is I've always told people that you got to lean into the relationships network gain sponsors, people that would say your name in rooms you aren't in. You got to care about that. And every single file that I would work within, I read it, all of it. I got to see examples of how the work was done to see, I got to see other people that work there to see whether or not the things they put on their performance improvement plan, did it actually improve performance. Because I cared about stuff like that. So take every grain of what's offered you in terms of a requirement and see what it turns into in terms of nuggets that lay a foundation that allow somebody you respect to say, you know more than anybody I know about this topic. It's because I've cared about every detail that's come across my desk. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. I mean, you read the FMLA. Jamie Swaim: I did. Which I wouldn't advise, by the way. Google helped a lot of things. Molley Ricketts: Well, I want to tell you that I appreciate you and the commitment that you go to finding the right answer, and I say the right answer because we all have opinions. Jamie Swaim: Oh, absolutely. Molley Ricketts: And being able to discern when you know that you need to find the right answer and not just your opinion, that takes a big person and someone that's very self-aware. And I thank you for that. Jamie Swaim: Thank you. Real Talk Over Theory: The Inspiration Behind Parcel Molley Ricketts: So I think that you're closing out this chapter of files that we've committed to here at WTF, Workforce Therapy Files. You're the last one wrapping us up. So is there anything you want to close us out on that you think people need to know about Jamie Swaim? Jamie Swaim: The only thing I would like to put a pen in, if you don't mind, is that there's an inspiration story behind why I created Parcel. And part of it was because I worked in all of these corporate settings, and there would be times where I didn't have enough people on my team to do the things that were being asked and the time I was given to do it. And then for the moments where I needed to go and find someone, I kept running into consultants that all they had ever done was lived in the theoretical. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: I knew that I was not going to hire those consultants. I was not going to partner with people who were using theory and textbook to drive meaningful outcomes for companies, especially small and medium businesses. And I'm really proud of the people that we brought into the Parcel fold over the years because they've all been individuals that I know have walked the walk and that are not living in the utopian version of how you should be doing this, which is my biggest pet peeve about HR conferences. So I just want to say that because if you're in a situation where you don't know how to navigate something and you want somebody who's going to be real talk with you, I'm proud of what Parcel has done in that space. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, that's great. And I'll attest to the work effort. Thanks for being on the show. Jamie Swaim: Thanks for having me. Molley Ricketts: All right, Jim, close that file. That's where we'll leave the conversation for today. Before we close the file, we invite you to reach out to us with questions, suggestions or other comments. We'd love to hear from you. Did You Enjoy Today's Conversation? Visit www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com [http://www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com] to listen to additional WTF files or to let us know you'd like to be a guest on an upcoming file. Need Help Supporting Your Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: · Jamie Swaim, SPHR - www.ParcelKnows.com [http://www.ParcelKnows.com] · Molley Ricketts - www.IncipioWorks.com [http://www.IncipioWorks.com] · Jason Heflin - www.CrowdSouth.com [http://www.CrowdSouth.com] We hope you found this file insightful and helpful. Thank you for listening!

Why Hiring Is Broken: Moving Beyond "Check-the-Box" Recruiting

File 36: In this file of Workforce Therapy Files, the hosts spotlight Molley Ricketts, founder and CEO of Incipio Workforce Solutions, and explore her journey building a people-first recruiting firm. Molley shares how her early experiences shaped her belief that hiring should be intentional rather than transactional. The conversation dives into common hiring mistakes, including reactive recruiting and outdated job descriptions. They also unpack the real cost of bad hires and why culture alignment matters more than filling a seat quickly. Molley highlights the overlooked value of essential workers and the importance of recognizing their contributions beyond moments of crisis. The group discusses leadership growth, the difference between founder and CEO roles, and how to scale a business while maintaining culture. Practical insights around networking, strategy, and long-term talent development are woven throughout. The file ultimately challenges leaders to rethink how they approach hiring, culture, and workforce strategy. Key Themes: * Molley Ricketts' Origin Story: From Corporate to Entrepreneur * Reactive Hiring vs. Strategic Talent Planning * The Real Cost of a Bad Hire vs. an Open Position * Essential Workers: Why Their Value Is Still Overlooked * Scaling a Business Without Losing Culture and Leadership Identity File Transcript: Jamie Swaim: Welcome back to another amazing episode of the Workforce Therapy Files. Today we are continuing a theme where we're getting to know the hosts of Workforce Therapy Files, and today we are dedicating our time completely to the one, the only, the incredible, the author… Molley Ricketts: International bestseller. Jamie Swaim: The international bestseller. You're not supposed to do your own intro, but dang it, Molley Ricketts: I didn't want you to miss it. Jamie Swaim: I'm not going to ask Jim to redo it because… Jason Heflin: A quick plug, but international best seller for what? Molley Ricketts: She Knows Best. Jamie Swaim: Author of international bestselling book, She Knows Best [https://www.amazon.com/She-Knows-Best-Business-Extraordinary/dp/B0G9VHHD59/ref=sr_1_1?crid=X75MGVJP046A&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.tHeM5vdnHrpLwOgTtPo7rIAgA2BboQyO0BRKFY8OSbd7VGqqOZfvaBanusfAH-EBsF4vAmebb-3txRq3GSTyRWflqF9lN9hUwJ9YNhwCE210dAxcazIxhaRUmeQq_k7nuzuKDmF30z8DDoKWv3426dH0dP2WK-_ONo4x83LlY_80QJdjTczXf3wwprAOIWsoTKg8NKct5EJnxRJfvyJDFB0FttKHgmc9idZDyEzDbEw.dhWq5QO3mI8ThgXt7sUaG3sptTda_fyBhWtGcAHkcUE&dib_tag=se&keywords=she+knows+best+book&qid=1776957337&sprefix=she+know+best%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-1], Molley Ricketts. Molley Ricketts: Thanks. Thanks for having me on the show. Jamie Swaim: Very good. Molley Ricketts: Thanks. Jamie Swaim: Molley. I know we'll give you some questions and you prepared some things that you definitely want to talk about today, but you're not prepared. Jason Heflin: We're not going to ask you any of those questions. Jamie Swaim: We're not going to ask you any of them. We've got a whole list. Molley Ricketts: I feel so unprepared now. Jamie Swaim: All right. If you had to teach a master class tomorrow about something that has nothing to do with your business or your job, what would it be on? Molley Ricketts: Boating. Jamie Swaim: Boating. Jason Heflin: That's Boating with a B, not voting with a V. Molley Ricketts: Oh no. You don't want me to teach that class! Jamie Swaim: How'd you get into boating? Molley Ricketts: Grew up around it. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Molley Ricketts: I was driving a boat before I was driving a car. Jamie Swaim: So now we'll also call you Captain Molley Ricketts. Jason Heflin: She's been a captain for us lately, like getting some of this content ready and stuff. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. I don't know if you guys know this, but our podcast wouldn't happen if it wasn't for Molley Ricketts. Molley Ricketts: Oh, stop. Jamie Swaim: She gets us together. She tells us what we're going to talk about. She gets us guests. She found Jim. Yeah. Your face should be bigger on our sticker. Molley Ricketts: I like that. Jamie Swaim: But you're already in the middle, so I guess there's that. Okay. Molley Ricketts: The Red glasses. Jamie Swaim: So let's just like every hero or villain in a story. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Molley Ricketts' Origin Story: From Corporate to Entrepreneur Jamie Swaim: They all have a good origin story. Let's talk about yours. Molley Ricketts: Okay. Jamie Swaim: What problem in the workforce space frustrated you so much that you were like, nobody else is doing this, so I'm going to build a company and I'm going to be the one to do it? Molley Ricketts: It stemmed from working with organizations that continue to look at recruiting as a transaction and checking a box to fill a seat. The opportunities that come with an organization that are intentional about the people that they're putting in those seats and that are intentional about the knowledge, skills, and abilities that they're bringing into the company. When you really think about it and make that decision based on growth and succession, instead of checking-the-box, you change the game. And for so long, the companies that I was working with, that's all they wanted to do. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. I got you. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: Your company's name is Incipio. We didn't mention that in the intro. Jason Heflin: Incipio Works. Jamie Swaim: Incipio Workforce Solutions. Yep. So was Incipio the first company you started? Molley Ricketts: It was not. Jamie Swaim: What? There's another story here. I did not know this. Molley Ricketts: So I worked with a corporate organization for almost 12 years and learned a lot. It was a great experience. It was also one of those great golden handcuff companies where you've got the great pay, great benefits, great PTO. Jamie Swaim: Did you have a pension? Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: What? Molley Ricketts: Can you believe it? Jamie Swaim: No. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. So there were other plans for me. I was part of the second wave of layoffs that banking institution had, and I thought, you know what? I can do this. I can do this on my own. But I had two small kids and didn't think that I could lean into myself enough to financially support the family. My husband was working, he had a stable job, still does, and it was all great, but taking that leap of faith on myself was a little too scary. So I went out and I said, okay, if anybody was going to hire me to solve their recruiting problems, and all I have on my resume is 12 years of a corporate job, they're going to look at me and think, no. Jamie Swaim: That's not going to work over here in my widget-making. Molley Ricketts: So, I went to work for a small company here in Louisville. Architects and engineers, Luckett and Farley. I'm a history nerd. So they were the official architects of the Twin Spires at Churchill Downs from 18, whatever that year was, sorry, I don't remember. So I thought, how cool would that be? And learned a lot from there. And then I was tapped to work a contract position with GE through YO Corporation out of northern, the New England area, and learned a lot there, especially working as a third party for a corporate company like GE. Learned a lot. And through that, a lot of the managers and leaders that I had worked with in the past at Citigroup said, Hey, the person that I'm working with now, I don't like them recruiting for me. Can you help me? So my first company started itself basically, because people that I had worked with in the past reached out and I thought, I can do this. I can work full-time job and come home and work again. Sorry, Chad. And that's what I did. So my first company was Starting Line Staffing Consultants. Jamie Swaim: Starting line? Molley Ricketts: Starting line. Jamie Swaim: Because you love the track. Molley Ricketts: Yes. Jamie Swaim: Yes. That's a great name for your company. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. And it was a starting line for new employees, for new companies. Right? Jamie Swaim: For sure. Molley Ricketts: So I did that. So I worked full-time as a contractor through YO at GE, and I had my own business on the side, and the business started to grow and I had to make a decision. I was like, I don't have that real third-party experience. So, I went to work for a temporary agency and continued to affirm that that's not the business that I wanted. Through that education and learning really took my Starting Line business and pulled it into that temporary agency and learned a lot after two and a half years and discovered that wasn't a good fit for me and decided to leave there and took on the adventure of giving myself a few months of a break to get my stuff together. Did you like that? I said stuff I didn't. Jason Heflin: Very well done. Yeah. Molley Ricketts: Thank you. Thank you. Jamie Swaim: Such growth, really. Molley Ricketts: Right, right. So I took a few months and really got a plan together. And Jason, to your point on a previous episode [https://www.workforcetherapyfiles.com/podcast/the-real-cost-of-winning-why-jason-heflin-exhanged-toxic-growth-for-time-and-family-empowerment/] of really understanding what it was at the minimum expectations I had to set for myself, that was hard because I'd had so much responsibility in leadership opportunities in the previous positions, and I missed that, because now I'm the only one. And when I started Incipio and the frustration that I had seen with other organizations that I'd been a part of that we were working with, I just saw that real lack of focus and the transactional filling of seats that companies were used to, and there's got to be more than this. The satisfaction that I felt early on in my career, why can't other people feel that? And they should. Why has it become acceptable that they don't have to? So Starting Line was then dissolved, worked for the third party, and Incipio was born, which is Latin for new beginnings. Jamie Swaim: Look at all this intentionality. Jason Heflin: I know. Jamie Swaim: I know. Jason Heflin: I just start on a whim and she's over here thinking about it. Jamie Swaim: I love it. So if you were to think about the thing that you have changed your mind on in the past 10 years as it relates to talent, what's the thing that you believed 10 years ago that you no longer believe? Molley Ricketts: Everything's on a resume. Jamie Swaim: Oh yeah. Molley Ricketts: Maybe it used to be that way. Jamie Swaim: No, I think it was probably wrong then too. Molley Ricketts: You think? Jamie Swaim: Well, I think it's because you have to decide what you are hiring for. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: Are you hiring a resume writer? And if your job is not to be a resume writer, then it's probably not going to be a perfect resume. Molley Ricketts: Fair. Jamie Swaim: That's my take on it. Yeah. Jason Heflin: Alright. I'm going to ask some questions now. Jamie Swaim: That's good. I'm going to shut up now. Jason Heflin: Or don't. Please don't. Jamie Swaim: Okay, good Reactive Hiring vs. Strategic Talent Planning Jason Heflin: What are employers still getting wrong about hiring all this time? Molley Ricketts: Just one thing? Jason Heflin: Yeah. Molley Ricketts: I believe that employers are still getting wrong just in hiring and recruiting, that they're reactive. That because a person leaves or a position goes unfilled, that that position has to be filled. It's this job, it's no other job. And instead of taking a step back and really evaluating the landscape and understanding what position is missing, they're just reactive hiring. And this crazy thing happens when you really look at the job descriptions that you're hiring against when you're frustrated because the talent that's walking in the door that you want to hire to isn't the person that you want to fill the job. And the amount of times that I will ask a leader, well, did you read the job description? Jason Heflin: Yeah. Molley Ricketts: Well, recently? Yeah, before you posted it. Well, no, because the job that I need to fill. For the person that was here two years ago? You don't think that job has evolved at all, even in the smallest skillset? Jason Heflin: Oh yeah. Molley Ricketts: Oh, well, I guess. Jamie Swaim: You change systems. Molley Ricketts: You're not even on the same tech stack. Jamie Swaim: You all don't even produce that anymore. Jason Heflin: We're still recruiting for it. You had new responsibilities to that role. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Well, I wonder why I wasn't getting the talent I was still looking for. It's like stop reactive hiring. Jason Heflin: Yeah. And rewrite that job description, please. Sounds like. Well, we're leaders confusing activity and with strategy that seems very common and we all do it, but the activity isn't always strategy. Where do they get that message up? Molley Ricketts: Post and pray. Jason Heflin: I say that all the time. Molley Ricketts: The post and pray mentality. I know that you guys know what that is, but for those listeners that may not, it's when you post a job and you pray that candidates come into play, especially in today's day and age. Let's even go back to rewriting a job description that's relevant to the position that you want to fill. But thinking that people are just going to apply to a job that you've posted. If you don't have a brand that's nationally recognized, that's probably not going to happen. And even if you do have a brand that's nationally recognized, the talent that you're wanting, they're not applying to jobs. They're working. Not saying that the demographic of human that isn't working right now they're not quality talent. I'm not saying that. Please don't confuse the note of, you have to be intentional about the position that you want to fill. Jamie Swaim: Agreed. The Real Cost of a Bad Hire vs. an Open Position Jason Heflin: Yeah. I think networking too. Networking has gone out the window. It's like, well, you may know someone, you may be working with someone at another institution that could be a good fit. Let's talk about that. What's the real cost of a bad hire that most executives… Jamie Swaim: Oh no. Is she going to tell us about soft dollars? Molley Ricketts: Here we go. I asked someone recently, I said, so do you think that having a position go unfilled is more costly than that of a bad hire? And they said, absolutely. I said, really? Tell me more. Well, because you've got the position. It's unfilled. They're not, no one's doing the job. I said, so you're telling me that that costs you more as an organization than filling the position with someone who is not a good fit? And everything that you have to go through in that experience to then get rid of them costs less than having the position vancant? Jason Heflin: And the cultural repercussions, because others have to fill that role for that. Not just fill an empty seat, but come back behind someone and clean things up and try to educate and try to train while doing the job and all those things. Molley Ricketts: And as a leader, if you're acknowledging that that person isn't the right fit, everyone that's around that person that knows that you know that they're not the right fit, they're like, well hell, if they're going to put up with this person, then why am I busting my butt to make it happen? Jamie Swaim: Especially if that hire was in a spot that is at a higher-level than that person that is doing the work. Molley Ricketts: Tight spot. Jamie Swaim: Really tight. Yeah. Essential Workers: Why Their Value Is Still Overlooked Jason Heflin: Wow. Alright. I got a question about essential workers. A lot about essential workers. Molley Ricketts: Yes, they're my jam. Jason Heflin: Yes, they're your jam. What's happening with essential workers that the media isn't talking about that people should be talking about? Molley Ricketts: So does everybody remember what happened back in 2020? Jamie Swaim: With painful clarity. Molley Ricketts: Do you remember the people that, I believe the federal government issued a thing that people were supposed to print out to put on their dashboards if they were an essential worker so that they could be on the road so that they could be parked in a parking lot so that they could be actually going to work? Do you guys remember that? Jamie Swaim: I don't know if it was federal, but yes, I remember the parking passes. Yeah. I remember having to make sure that people across straight, the state lines especially had something explaining why they had to cross the state lines and stuff like that. Jason Heflin: Yeah. There were privileges around it. Jamie Swaim: Privilege. Molley Ricketts: Essential workers were privileged, in that category. Jason Heflin: Valued. Molley Ricketts: I mean, revered. These are the people going to work every day, making it happen. Lifting them up! Jason Heflin: Utility workers, nurses, yeah. Molley Ricketts: Manufacturing. I mean, it's crazy, right? Jamie Swaim: Yeah absolutely. Molley Ricketts: And then what? Jamie Swaim: The world opened back up. Jason Heflin: Back to reality. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. So they weren't special anymore. Do you guys know that over 70% of the nation's workers is an essential worker? Jamie Swaim: 70%? Molley Ricketts: 70%? Jamie Swaim: I did not know that. Molley Ricketts: 70%. Jamie Swaim: That number surprises me for some reason, and I don't know why. Molley Ricketts: It did me too. Jamie Swaim: I guess when you think about all the things that prop up a community, essential workers are a large part of that. Molley Ricketts: So the ones that are actually doing the thing, doing the work. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Molley Ricketts: It's so disheartening that individuals in that category of worker are no longer lifted up the way that they were. I really thought that that was going to help make a change and people would admire and look at those committed individuals in manufacturing, in long-term care, in the hospital environment Jamie Swaim: And logistics, Molley Ricketts: All of that. And it just went away. Jamie Swaim: And you feel like the media is not talking about that enough. How would you expect, if we were to keep the lessons of 2020, how would you expect to see those things show up now, if we learned from it and did something different? Molley Ricketts: I think acknowledging the power of their work, the influence of their work, instead of, it feels less than. If you have a blue collar job, if you have an entry-level to mid-level manager position in your community, in your home, it almost feels like they belittled. That their job isn't a value because I'm the vice president of whatever, so I'm greater than, and that hurts my heart. Jason Heflin: So if I get pulled over by a police officer and I say, look, I'm a podcaster. I really got to get where I'm going. Oh sir, please. Yeah, go right on. Yeah. Yeah. Jamie Swaim: Sad note. I got pulled over recently in the great state of Indiana, and I would just like to thank the nice trooper for being the nicest person that's ever pulled me over. He was really kind - little side note. Molley Ricketts: Did he give you a ticket? Jamie Swaim: 100%. He absolutely gave me a ticket. Jason Heflin: Do you listen to the Workforce Therapy Files? Jamie Swaim: Do you know who I am? Is what I said. That didn't get me any clout. So yeah, no, he was like, did you know that you were speeding? And I said, oh, I just got off the interstate, so I guess I'm still an interstate mind. And he goes, you are going fast for the interstate. So I had to slow it down. Molley Ricketts: But just to wrap the essential worker category up, loyalty isn't something that is assumed it's earned. And in that category of worker, it's earned every day. Jamie Swaim: And obviously we need those or they wouldn't have been deemed essential. So how we treat those individuals in our community matters. Molley Ricketts: Hundred percent. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. I'm picking a bunch, putting down. Molley Ricketts: Thanks. Scaling a Business Without Losing Culture and Leadership Identity Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. Okay. So Molley, you're going to switch gears a smidge. In your career, and especially with Incipio, you have scaled a business, your second business, and you've done that. And we spent so much time talking about culture and it's importance. So I want to ask you some questions specific to what it means to scale a business without losing sight of culture. What do you think intentional growth has looked like in your business? Molley Ricketts: Understanding that the next thing is going to happen, whether or not you plan for it. So having the ability to ask, so what are you seeing? What's happening? And not being afraid to listen to that response and hear it, because you want to do the next thing that you think is best. Learning through those mistakes and not having people around you to truth-tell with you, that's huge. It can make or break your business. Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. I think that that is one of the biggest things that I've learned from you. I feel like you do a nice job of building community around you with people who are subject matter experts in a lot of different areas. And you can tell how you lean into that advice and that connection and make some adjustments to how you're doing things. Molley Ricketts: Yes. Jamie Swaim: It's been really cool to watch that. Molley Ricketts: Thanks. Jamie Swaim: And as somebody who you got to experience at the very beginning of my journey, I just want you to know that I carry that with me. It's good to know sometimes when you leave a mark. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: How do you decide which clients are aligned to your culture versus just being helpful for revenue? Gosh, firing a client, that's the hardest thing, right? Molley Ricketts: Oh, it, it's not fun at all. And I think that over the last 10 years with Incipio, now being in a place where you can really align with organizations and grow together, we have several clients that they're going into their, they too are going to their 11th year in partnership with Incipio, which is really cool to say that we have clients that we started with that we're still with today. And the evolution of those organizations, as Incipio has evolved, and those fellow CEOs or key decision makers in a company that acknowledge that growth with you, that's huge. And now in a position of clearly defining the culture and environment of Incipio and being able to look at another organization, even when you're in that first discovery meeting and say, they're not ready for us. They're not ready for Incipio, with confidence instead of fear, that's been great. Jason Heflin: Not everybody's right to ready to take action. Molley Ricketts: No. Jason Heflin: We've been on the theme of checking boxes. Some people are just in the business of checking a box. Molley Ricketts: And that's fine, but that's not who Incipio is. Jamie Swaim: Right? So when people start a business, you see them use any number of job titles, by the way, on their socials, how they market themselves. You call yourself CEO, correct? Molley Ricketts: That's right. Jamie Swaim: Right. So what do you consider the primary difference between founder and CEO and what adjustments have you needed to make? Molley Ricketts: Wow. Thanks for that. Jason Heflin: That's really good. Jamie Swaim: Thank you. Jason Heflin: Can I say something really quick while you're thinking about it? Yeah. I'm kind of shifting personally from CEO to founder, so I'm taking that. So I'm really interested in what you have to say because I'm, and titles are whatever. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, they're really for everybody else. Jason Heflin: For everybody else, it's clout. It's, he is trying to get in the door and say, look, I'm an important person you should be talking to. But yeah, Mrs. CEO tell us about it. Molley Ricketts: I think CEO to me means actively engaged and pursuing excellence. And founder to me means more of taking a backseat and letting everyone else do the day-to-day. Not in a bad way. Just the active engagement of a founder is completely different to me than a CEO. Now, I've also seen titles of entrepreneurs that start a business, and they've been in it for a while, that they have the Founder/CEO/President. What was that horrible boss's movie, the guy that took on four different titles from the character Jason Bateman played? Jason Heflin: Can I say that's like a huge pet peeve of mine. When a leader, when a top-level leader, we know you do a lot of jobs. We know you wear a lot of hats. Don't put seven titles on there. I get it. You do a lot of stuff. You're frustrated, but just pick one. Molley Ricketts: You don't need a 5x7 business card size to take all of your titles. Jason Heflin: I want to know when I've ended the body of the email and I've started the signature, and usually it's like the signature is longer than the body. Don't do that people. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. No. And I often think too, that the title is really, of CEO, is really more used for the outward for the people that we're working with as opposed to internal. At least I hope that that's what my partners, my internal partners think, because we have individuals within Incipio that we work with that are smarter than me, in ways that I know that I also have gifts that they don't. And being able to balance that out and honor each other and lift each other up to do that. That's what a CEO is to me. Someone that can discern the difference between, Jamie, what you're great at, Jason, what you're great at, and honoring what I'm great at, that you guys are not, and how we can pull that up together. The game has changed. Jason Heflin: Oh yeah. Molley Ricketts: But it takes a lot for somebody to get that, in my opinion. Jamie Swaim: Agreed. Alright, Molley, as always, we learned a lot from you today. Remind people how they can get in touch with Incipio. Molley Ricketts: Incipioworks.com. Like Jason said, that's a shorter version. Jason Heflin: This is a great tagline. Because you do work. You work hard. Molley Ricketts: Yeah, that's right. Or let's see. Oh no. Yeah, LinkedIn, Molley Ricketts. That's with an "ey". Jamie Swaim: Love that. And if they wanted to get a copy of, what was the name of that book again? Molley Ricketts: She knows Best. Jamie Swaim: She knows Best. Where would they go to get that? Anywhere they get books? Molley Ricketts: Amazon [https://www.amazon.com/She-Knows-Best-Business-Extraordinary/dp/B0G9VHHD59/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2BV46AAWEN3CG&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.tHeM5vdnHrpLwOgTtPo7rIAgA2BboQyO0BRKFY8OSbd7VGqqOZfvaBanusfAH-EBsF4vAmebb-3txRq3GSTyRWflqF9lN9hUwJ9YNhwCE210dAxcazIxhaRUmeQq_k7nuzuKDmF30z8DDoKWv3426QSuC_ewyi8qZPEBH45eUh4o4Hz8CgDDVpByqs2vCTOCN94j2JS2c4uKCp2Hia5yepyr9rlf5yseja4NDjku7bQ.DzB3E1bsL_iH9UZ6DYsx9ISDo2K-xI1S0Puz6wFjdos&dib_tag=se&keywords=she+knows+best+book&qid=1776962222&sprefix=she+knows+best%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-1]. Yeah. Bargain Price of $14.95. Jamie Swaim: How much would it cost to get your signature and set book? Molley Ricketts: Depends on how well I know you, like you, love you. Jamie Swaim: Okay. Well, I meant to bring mine today to see if I can negotiate that, but… Molley Ricketts: I might give it to you. Jamie Swaim: Oh, thanks. Well, I bought a copy because that's what friends do. Molley Ricketts: Thank you. Jason Heflin: Well, thank you for all your insights. I respect you a lot. I think a lot about you and what you've done through your career, and we all have our own unique path. But you've just done a great job getting to where you are and I can't wait to see what's next. Alright, James. Close that file. That's where we'll leave the conversation for today. Before we close the file, we invite you to reach out to us with questions, suggestions or other comments. We'd love to hear from you. Did You Enjoy Today's Conversation? Visit www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com [http://www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com] to listen to additional WTF files or to let us know you'd like to be a guest on an upcoming file. Need Help Supporting Your Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: · Jamie Swaim, SPHR - www.ParcelKnows.com [http://www.ParcelKnows.com] · Molley Ricketts - www.IncipioWorks.com [http://www.IncipioWorks.com] · Jason Heflin - www.CrowdSouth.com [http://www.CrowdSouth.com] We hope you found this file insightful and helpful. Thank you for listening!

The Real Cost of Winning: Why Jason Heflin Exchanged Toxic Growth for Time and Family Empowerment

File 35: Jason Heflin sits in the "hot seat" to share insights from his entrepreneurial journey, which began after he realized he was not wired for the repetitive nature of a corporate cubicle. The interview explores his core business philosophy of avoiding commoditization by prioritizing deep, long-term strategic partnerships over one-off product services. When asked about scaling a business, Jason highlights the importance of "stick-to-itiveness" and the risk-taking necessary to overcome the fear of failure. He admits that his greatest operational challenge was learning to embrace standardized processes, a discipline that often feels restrictive to his "free spirit" nature. Regarding team management, Jason emphasizes accountability through ownership and the difficult but necessary decision to let go of talented individuals who are not a cultural fit. Reflecting on his diverse past ventures—ranging from a diaper bag company to a brewery—he cautions against chasing every "shiny object" without a clear plan or genuine passion. Having once prioritized "winning" at the cost of his personal life, he has since redefined success to focus on family and empowering others to lead. Finally, he identifies his company's differentiator as a results-driven culture where team members genuinely care about outcomes and are not afraid to pivot when strategies fail. Key Themes: 1. Breaking Free from the Gray Cubicle 2. The Partnership Obsession 3. The "Stick-to-itiveness" of Scaling 4. The Copper Touch: Lessons from Diaper Bags to Breweries 5. Ownership and the Hard Truths of Leadership 6. Redefining the Win: From Toxic Growth to Time Well Spent Episode Transcript: Jamie Swaim: Today on the Workforce Therapy files. We'd like to welcome you back and also tell you that we have a special guest that is in the hot seat. Molley Ricketts: Who? Jamie Swaim: It's none other than your favorite. Jason Heflin. Yes. Molley Ricketts: And the crowd goes wild! Jamie Swaim: So, Mr. Heflin, we have a number of questions that we'd like to just pick your brain on in this episode, in this file. Jason Heflin: I'm turning my hat around backwards for this. Molley Ricketts: Uh-oh. Jamie Swaim: Is that straight up? Out of over the top. Are you Lincoln Hawk? Jason Heflin: Whoa. Jamie Swaim: Yes. Might've been one of my favorite movies. I'm not going to lie. Molley Ricketts: He trembled a little bit. Jamie Swaim: I know. And I'm ready to arm wrestle him just to see what happens. So Jason, I want to start off with, if you were a professional athlete and you had walk-in music, what would be the theme song you would choose? Jason Heflin: The Final Countdown. Jamie Swaim: Oh, there was a little harmony there. I like it. Final Countdown. Gosh, I do feel like that's a song I haven't heard recent enough. Jason Heflin: Yeah. There was a show 20 years ago called Arrested Development. Jamie Swaim: Yes, Jason Heflin: It was great, and one of the characters would always come out to that song. He was a magician, and that's how he would come out. He would do a little dance. Molley Ricketts: It's a great show. Jason Heflin: It's a great show. Jamie Swaim: Jason Bateman, right? Molley Ricketts: Yeah, Jason Bateman. Molley Ricketts: In the early years. Jamie Swaim: He's one of my favorites. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: Okay. Now we're going to get more serious, but it's helpful to know because I feel like when I see people and I know that about them, immediately this song pops in my head. Jason Heflin: Maybe it should be the intro, Jim, to this episode. Jamie Swaim: He said you can't afford that. Yeah. Jason Heflin: We'll just have to sing it! Jamie Swaim: That public domain? Is that how it works? Molley Ricketts: Copyright laws. Jamie Swaim: I dunno. Alright. So, Jason, what was the first moment that you realized you were wired for entrepreneurship? Jason Heflin: About six or seven years into sitting in a gray cubicle in a corporate office. Jamie Swaim: You're like, this is not for me. Jason Heflin: Doing TPS reports. Jamie Swaim: You've been missing a lot of work, Jason. Jason Heflin: I said 'm going to do something else and it's not going to be for someone else. I need to exercise that muscle. Jamie Swaim: How long did that take you? Jason Heflin: Oh, like I said, six or seven years. Jamie Swaim: Six or seven years. Jason Heflin: 6-7. Jamie Swaim: Okay. What problem are you most obsessed with solving right now? Jason Heflin: Not being a commodity. Jamie Swaim: Tell me more. Jason Heflin: So I don't want our services to be commoditized. And I think often that's the way we're approached initially is, Hey, we need a website, or we need ads for hiring, or we want to attract talent through digital advertising, blah, blah. Whatever the thing is. And they're just looking at it like a commodity. Jamie Swaim: Dollar. Product. Jason Heflin: Yeah. Do you do it? We're going to ask 12 other people the same thing. And then whoever has the cheapest prices who we're going to pick. I want to build long-term partnerships. I mean, that's what I've always wanted. That's what we strive to do. And so it's really hard for me when someone enters our funnel as looking at us as a commodity. And then you have to kind of flip that and say, no, I want to go to lunch and get to know you and your team and what we're trying to do here, and let's build a strategy around it. I don't want to just do the thing. And then you're disappointed in six months. I want to really dig into what the true issues are. Jamie Swaim: I would imagine what the kind of work that you do, the longer-term relationships create better outputs any way. Jason Heflin: Oh yeah. Jamie Swaim: It's not like, oh, let me put together your whole employment brand because I've known you for two seconds. Jason Heflin: We've had clients for 12 plus years and they're the best. I love 'em. They're friends, they're partners. Partners is overused, but it's true. They're real partners. We're in their business. We go in their office and the admins know us and just shoo us on back to the conference room and no security and just, yeah. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Molley Ricketts: It makes a difference. Jamie Swaim: I'm assuming, because you've been in business now for 72 years? Jason Heflin: 73. Jamie Swaim: 73, okay. I don't want to undersell your knowledge, but I'm curious, how has your definition of success evolved across that 73-year spectrum? Jason Heflin: Well, in the year 1 through 50, I was really more focused on winning. So it was more toxic culture, toxic growth for the sake of growth. But yeah, so I'm more focused on time with my family, treating people really well, building partnerships, long-term partnerships I want to be in for years with somebody. I don't want to waste anybody's time. So yeah, less winning, more hanging. Jamie Swaim: Well, as someone who's known you for at least 30 of those 73 years, I think it's a solid choice. People should do it. Jason Heflin: Thanks. Jamie Swaim: Yeah, for sure. Molley Ricketts: All right, Jason, so what do you think separates entrepreneurs who scale from the ones who stall? Jason Heflin: Sticktoitiveness. Is that a word? Jamie Swaim: It is now. Jason Heflin: Okay. Webster's definition of sticktoitiveness is staying the course. Go. I mean, I think the ones that don't scale are maybe fearful. Being an entrepreneur is about risk, and you have to be willing to take those risks. And if you're not, it's going to be a very slow process. So don't expect it to be a quick run. If you're not willing to lose and lose multiple times. Molley Ricketts: You definitely have to be okay with the word no, a lot. Jason Heflin: I've started and sold at least four businesses in my life, and I made that mistake many times over in the past. Molley Ricketts: So what operational discipline do you think takes founders way too long to execute, to learn? What do they avoid for too long? Jason Heflin: In my experience, this is self-reflection, but it was process, building processes around commonly common tasks. Jamie Swaim: Standard work. Jason Heflin: Yep. Things that we do over and over again. We know how to do. Somebody's already figured out step one through six, just put it down, this is it. These are the rules. We can change the rules anytime if things in the environment change. But yeah, and I resist process because I'm a free spirit. I just want to operate. I'm a cowboy. I don't want to be pinned down. So that's tough for me. And my business partner's really good at it. So we have complimented each other in that way over the years. Molley Ricketts: I agree. It's definitely as a fellow free spirit, seeing things on paper with process and 1, 2, 3, A, B, C, and it's like, really? You couldn't just do it? Jason Heflin: I get itchy. I feel pinned in. Jamie Swaim: I know this isn't something that you said, but I'm curious around the same question because I know we're interviewing Jason, but we like to have a little chitchat. I feel like the founder relationship with cash also is something that might get in the way of people scaling. And I don't know how you guys have done that or whether or not that's a challenge that you had, but for the bootstrappers or the individuals who are getting started with some sort of investment cash, figuring out how to leverage debt, figuring out how to budget for the down months, figuring out how to do that and not be, I don't know, discouraged from continuing. I know you guys have had nothing but green, gold star months in your careers as entrepreneurs, but I'm curious what you might advise for the people who are doing those entrepreneur journeys, anew. Jason Heflin: I think prepare for the downtimes. The thing that you think, oh, if this happened, that would be bad. Well get ready for it. It's going to happen eventually. Just get ready, build a plan around it. If this, then this, if this, then that. And sometimes it's even helpful to kind of draw that out like a little tree. Just like, okay, if this happens, I'm going to do this and just be ready. And that way when it happens, you're much more at ease. You can say, okay, I have a plan. I can follow it. I don't know if it's going to work, but I have alternate routes I can take. Jamie Swaim: Name it and claim it. Jason Heflin: Yep. Molley Ricketts: For me, it was business debt is completely different than personal debt, but personal debt for me was always, you don't have that. That's how you freedom and survive and live. But business debt, I went in with that same mentality, but learned that it's not the same at all. So when you think about looking at a business and you want to scale, you want to grow, where do you see businesses overcomplicating that growth? Jason Heflin: Well, on the topic of hiring, I think it's quick fix hiring. And I've been guilty of that many times. Just like, oh, this person has the credentials. Let's go hire them and let's just move. And we talked about that in a previous episode recently. It's just it does not work. It won't ever work. You might get lucky and their resume is everything about them, but most often it's not so quick. Jamie Swaim: Especially with AI, right? Yeah. Jamie Swaim: People are putting resumes together because they think that's what you want to see sometimes. Jason Heflin: Yeah, yeah. Lean into the interview. Don't be afraid to have a long interview. Don't be afraid to talk about culture. Don't be afraid to talk about the times in the past when they've had a conflict with fellow employees because those could bubble back up in your environment and come back to haunt you. Jamie Swaim: Absolutely. Jason Heflin: And it's better for them too. They don't need to be in a place that's not good for them. Molley Ricketts: They human behind the paper. So what do you think real accountability looks like in your organization at CrowdSouth? Jason Heflin: Ownership of your area of expertise. That's really what it is. And we did talk again in a recent episode about this, but letting them own it. Allowing them as an entrepreneur to own their area, getting in and being helpful by guiding the work and steering the work and kind and productive corrections are probably welcomed and should be welcomed, but not hovering over people. So I think them owning their area and then the entrepreneur allowing them to own their area. Jamie Swaim: As an entrepreneur, you have become no stranger to mitigating and navigating risks and learning how to make decisions that are right for you and your company. So I have a couple of questions as it relates to these things. What is a decision that you made that felt uncomfortable but was necessary? Jason Heflin: I'll tie it back to a previous answer a couple of questions ago. Letting people go that are not a good cultural fit. It's hard to do. Maybe they have all the talent, maybe have more than the talent, and you can see them fitting in a role somewhere else or even fitting in a role in your company, but just culturally they do not fit. And your team will let you know. Molley Ricketts: Pretty quick. Jason Heflin: Yep. Molley Ricketts: I agree with you on that. Jason Heflin: But it's still really hard. They're a good person. You're like, gosh, they could do so much. Jamie Swaim: Especially if you're doing any of the tips that we talk about around leadership and getting to know people and you learn their family, the impact of a job loss, those things start to hit really hard. Jason Heflin: Yeah. Oh yeah. Jamie Swaim: But your company's better for it. Jason Heflin: A hundred percent. Jamie Swaim: All right. I'm curious of the risk reward methodology you have in your own head. How do you measure and evaluate risk versus opportunity? Jason Heflin: I struggle with it personally. I like to keep the gas pedal down all the time. So I'm very comfortable with risk and I will go a little too far with it. Molley Ricketts: Do you have an example? Jason Heflin: Oh gosh. Do I have examples? Yeah. I mean, it's good for a business to be able to niche into things. These are the things we're good at. But then sometimes an opportunity will come up to take on a new thing and start to think we can do that. We'd be great at that. But it's a big risk to try something. You're going to probably fail a few times. And especially if it's a new client or someone you're interacting with as an entrepreneur, you could really flub it up. Think in terms of the big picture, go back to the plan for the year or the three-year plan or whatever it is, and say, does this really fit into what we're trying to do and be okay not taking this work or this big chunk of money because it's this shiny object or this brand that you wanted to work with. Or, Ooh, that would be great in our portfolio to say, I worked with this Fortune 100 company. Just be careful, evaluate it. Really sit back before you just take it. Jamie Swaim: And I don't know that our listeners know this about you, and so hopefully I'm not going too far, but blink twice if I say something you don't want me to say, okay, that's my safe word. But prior to CrowdSouth and building this marketing conglomerate that you guys have gone and built. Jason Heflin: Conglomerate, I like that. Jamie Swaim: That sounds big. Jason Heflin: Sure. Jamie Swaim: But prior to that, you were not new to the entrepreneur journey. I mean, you started companies and if you were to go through them, they don't all have something in common. Jason Heflin: Yeah. Jamie Swaim: You were in various industries and approaching it from different ways, but using key things that led to CrowdSouth. Do you want to talk about that at all? Because I think when people call you, they might be thinking about you through your marketing lens, but I used to refer to you as the person with the Midas touch. Everything you touch seemed to turn to gold. Jason Heflin: Maybe Copper. Jamie Swaim: Copper. The copper touch. Jason Heflin: Yeah, the copper touch. All Jamie Swaim: Right. Jason Heflin: Yeah. So a good example is I started a business once and it was fully because it was a good idea, but I wasn't super, super interested in it. So that kind of bit me. Later I started an online, an e-commerce business. And of all things, we were selling diaper bags. Jamie Swaim: Before you even had a child. Jason Heflin: Oh yeah, I had no interest. Jamie Swaim: You even know any kids? Jason Heflin: Yeah. What's a kid? I don't know. What's a diaper? Jamie Swaim: Why do you need a whole bag? Jason Heflin: Yeah, why do you a whole bag for these things? But it was a vacuum in the market, and my partner at the time and I went into it and it did really well. It just took off. And suddenly we were selling diaper bags and I turned a whole bedroom in my house into a warehouse. We had boxes stacked to the ceiling, and my wife and I were working on weekends shipping these things out and taking them to UPS, and it was exciting until it wasn't. And so we ended up selling that business to a company called Hayneedle, which owned like 50 different e-commerce businesses. It was just better. They had all the things they needed to really take it and run with it. And I could go do a different idea. So I think my unique ability as an entrepreneur is knowing when to leave, knowing when to get out of the way. Jamie Swaim: But you've also been a travel blogger. You owned a microbrewery slash restaurant, and now are in the marketing business. None of those things have automatic ties to each other. Definitely using your marketing expertise to do that. Jason Heflin: And real estate business and bourbon and all kinds of stuff. Jamie Swaim: I don't remember the bourbon. Jason Heflin: Most of them are opportunities. They're like, I see an opportunity and so I can't stop myself sometimes. So I do think it's important because entrepreneurs have that same gene where they see an opportunity whether it's a good fit or not, and they just chase it. And so be cautious of that. Make sure you don't have to be something you're just in love with, but at least have some sort of passion for it and know where it's going to go. Don't just start it because it's a good idea and then not know what you're going to do with it later. Jamie Swaim: Yeah. Jason Heflin: Have an exit plan or have a plan where you're going to step to the side and let somebody else take this thing over somebody that's more better suited, like, Hayneedle was. Molley Ricketts: Yeah. So Jason, when you think about your life as an entrepreneur and knowing that you've been with CrowdSouth for, what is it now 12, 13 years? Jason Heflin: Yep. Wow. Molley Ricketts: What does entrepreneurship cost you? Jason Heflin: Yeah, so I think it's cost me time. Time and money you exchange. So for many years, the brewery you mentioned, I owned the brewery at the same time, I own CrowdSouth. And I would go in the morning and I would work all day at CrowdSouth and I would drive immediately over to the brewery and I would work till one in the morning. And I did that for two and a half years. Jamie Swaim: Which means the MVP is also Jason's wife. Jason Heflin: Shout out. And during that time, had a baby. Molley Ricketts: Oh my gosh. Jason Heflin: And so it was just rough. And I realized I was exchanging too much the money for the time or the growth for the time, because it wasn't a lot of money then. It was just, okay, we're just growing this thing. So yeah, time. So that's really more what I'm trying to get back to focusing on. I'm going to start exchanging it the other way and I'll make less and I'll do less and I'll be less successful in terms of the typical definition of success, but I'm going to have more time. And it's probably an age thing too. I hit 50 this year. Jamie Swaim: Happy birthday. Jason Heflin: So it's like, okay, well I'm kind of waking up to, okay, it's time to slow down. Jamie Swaim: Success redefined? Jason Heflin: Yep. Yep. And just my son's getting older and it's a ticking, as they say. Molley Ricketts: So what would you tell your younger entrepreneurial self? Jason Heflin: Slow down. Think about these decisions. Don't jump into every thing that looks good. That's not always, like I said earlier, I just chased everything that was an opportunity. And I think that's fine when you're young and single or you don't have a lot of obligations, but as those obligations increase and compound, you got to take a step back and say, again, back to where I said, let other people do it, empower them. Start empowering people and start getting yourself out of the way. Because especially as you age, you can't keep up with everything. You can't keep up with all the technology and the trends. So let somebody else help you there. Molley Ricketts: So last question before we close our file. What is it about CrowdSouth that's different than all of your competitors? Jason Heflin: I can say, I mean, there are a thousand agencies across the country, marketing agencies, so I'm sure there are plenty that are like us. But I can say that we have developed a culture. One thing we've done right is we have a culture where people care. People care about the clients that care about the results. Sometimes a client will come in and they just want a brand project. We want to be seen more, or we want our employee brand just to be out there. And we're very results driven. So I think it's, it's a superpower, but it also gets in the way because we'll drive the client, we'll be like, Hey, no, we need to be doing better and these are the things we need and this is what we're going to do next. And sometimes they're slow down. We just got our heads around doing something basic and we're like, yeah, but we see so much back to the entrepreneurial kind of spirit and go, let's do this. I think we're really good at results driven work and we like to set smart goals early and have numbers behind everything. And that's what we're going to target every time we're going to drive toward that. So I'm very proud of the people that have gathered around us to do that. They all care too, and it hurts them when we don't do well. And I think a lot of companies don't admit when they don't do well, but we like to say, Hey, look, that didn't work, but we've got four new ideas to try. Molley Ricketts: Sure. Jason Heflin: So, come back to the table with that. That's what I'm proud of. Molley Ricketts: Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the show and letting us bend your ear and twist your arm on all the questions. Jamie Swaim: It's good to have you. Jason Heflin: Yeah. Thank you. I'd love to come back sometime. Molley Ricketts: We'd love to have maybe next file. Jason Heflin: Okay. Molley Ricketts: Alright, Jim, close that file. That's where we'll leave the conversation for today. Before we close the file, weinvite you toreach out to us with questions, suggestions or other comments. We'd love to hear from you. Did You Enjoy Today's Conversation? Visit www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com [http://www.WorkforceTherapyFiles.com] to listen to additional WTF files or to let us know you'd like to be a guest on an upcoming file. Need Help SupportingYour Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: · Jamie Swaim, SPHR - www.ParcelKnows.com [http://www.ParcelKnows.com] · Molley Ricketts - www.IncipioWorks.com [http://www.IncipioWorks.com] · Jason Heflin - www.CrowdSouth.com [http://www.CrowdSouth.com] We hope you found this file insightful and helpful. Thank you for listening!

Rapid Therapy Round: Leadership, Culture, and Workplace Truths Leaders Need to Hear

File 34: In this episode of Workforce Therapy Files, Jamie Swaim, Molley Ricketts, and Jason Heflin take a rapid-fire approach to leadership and workplace culture, tackling common myths, hiring mistakes, and behaviors that quietly damage teams. The conversation highlights the importance of intentional leadership, emotional intelligence, and clear communication in building strong workplace cultures. From employer branding and onboarding gaps to AI in recruiting and CEO-level concerns, this episode delivers practical, real-world insights for leaders navigating today's evolving workplace environment. Topics Workforce Myths That Hold Organizations Back Leadership Behaviors That Quietly Destroy Culture Hiring Mistakes and Candidate Experience Gaps AI in the Workplace: Opportunity vs. Risk What's Keeping CEOs Up at Night? What Should Be Keeping Leaders Up at Night? Discussion Highlights Molley Ricketts: And welcome back to Workforce Therapy Files. Today, we've got a treat for you. We're calling this the rapid therapy round. Jamie, Jason, are you guys in? Jason Heflin: I'm in. Jamie Swaim: It's been a while since we didn't have a guest. Molley Ricketts: It has been. Jamie Swaim: I'm excited to spend some quality time with you guys. Molley Ricketts: We are guests with each other today. Jamie Swaim: That's right. I'm pretty excited. Jason Heflin: Yeah, we'll get to know each other a little better. Molley Ricketts: Okay, so there's seven questions. Rapid fire. Jason, one workforce myth you want to kill. Workforce Myths That Hold Organizations Back Jason Heflin: Employer branding doesn't need attention. Companies spend time branding to customers but not enough to employees. Jamie Swaim: Mine is that leaders will lead. That is a myth. Jason Heflin: It takes time and effort to become a good leader. Molley Ricketts: Mine is HR being responsible for turnover. Leaders own that. Leadership Behaviors That Quietly Destroy Culture Jason Heflin: One leadership behavior that quietly destroys culture? Jamie Swaim: Being outcomes-focused above everything else. Molley Ricketts: Sarcasm can damage culture. Jason Heflin: Not letting go and micromanaging. Hiring Mistakes and Candidate Experience Gaps Jamie Swaim: One hiring mistake you see every week? Molley Ricketts: Silence after offer acceptance until day one. Jamie Swaim: That gap is a missed opportunity. Jason Heflin: Employer branding plays into that. Jamie Swaim: Hiring too quickly without development support. AI in the Workplace: Opportunity vs. Risk Molley Ricketts: A trend you're bullish on? Jason Heflin: Using AI as a starting point, not as a full solution or to replace people. Jamie Swaim: Organizations need AI policies. But my trend is radical candor. Molley Ricketts: AI recruiting needs human judgment. What's Keeping CEOs Up at Night Jamie Swaim: Talent availability is a concern. Jason Heflin: Market instability. Molley Ricketts: Service levels and accountability. What Should Be Keeping Leaders Up at Night Jamie Swaim: What should be keeping leaders up at night? Molley Ricketts: Company culture should keep leaders up at night. Jamie Swaim: External stress impacts employees. Jason Heflin: Leaders must prepare for what's next. Conclusion Molley Ricketts: Well, I think this was great. Jason Heflin: Rapid this time. Jamie Swaim: It was definitely a therapy round. Jason Heflin: If you have opinions, let us know. That's where we'll leave the conversation for today. Before we close the file, we invite you to reach out to us with questions, suggestions or other comments. We'd love to hear from you. Did You Enjoy Today's Conversation? Visit WorkforceTherapyFiles.com [https://www.workforcetherapyfiles.com/] to listen to additional WTF files or to let us know you'd like to be a guest on an upcoming file. Need Help Supporting Your Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: · Jamie Swaim, SPHR – www.ParcelKnows.com [https://www.parcelknows.com/] · Molley Ricketts – www.IncipioWorks.com [https://www.incipioworks.com/] · Jason Heflin – www.CrowdSouth.com [https://www.crowdsouth.com/] We hope you found this file insightful and helpful. Thank you for listening!

Interview with Carol Shulte - 2025 KYSHRM

The Workforce Therapy Files team attended the 2025 Kentucky SHRM Conference, in Louisville. We took the opportunity to interview over 20 professionals who stopped by our booth. Jamie and Molley were joined by Carol Schulte, Keynote Speaker and Founder of The Brāve Initiative. Dr. Brad Shuck also sat in for this interview. Carol shared her mission of empowering individuals to "get their brave on" by embracing their most authentic and vulnerable selves. She challenges HR professionals to create safe spaces where employees can bring their entire identity to their work, asserting that true connection requires being "real" rather than leading from a title. Carol's own "brave" journey includes a series of extraordinary life experiences, such as living in an ashram in India, volunteering in Thai orphanages, and apple picking while living in a van in New Zealand. These experiences inspired her to help others "live big" and focus on a "brave list" of challenges rather than a traditional bucket list. Regarding modern leadership, Carol believes the "command and control" style is obsolete and must be replaced by a mind shift toward courage and bold decision-making. She advocates for the platinum rule, which encourages leaders to "do unto others as they want you to do to them". This approach requires leaders to know their team members on a deeper, individual level to understand their unique motivations and needs. Carol emphasizes that today's workforce desires "raw humans" as leaders who are comfortable admitting they do not have all the answers. By being vulnerable and sharing their own stories, leaders invite their teams to do the same, fostering a more collaborative culture. To conclude her interview, she left a powerful question for the next participant: "What would you do if you were even braver?". To learn more, visit: · Website: www.carolschulte.com [https://carolschulte.com/] Carol and Brad, thanks for stopping by to speak with us! That's where we'll leave the conversation for today. Before we close the file, we invite you to reach out to us with questions, suggestions or other comments. We'd love to hear from you. Need Help Supporting Your Company's Recruiting and Staffing Goals? We're here to help. You can contact us via our individual websites, depending on your specific needs or questions: · Jamie Swaim, SPHR – www.ParcelKnows.com [http://www.ParcelKnows.com] · Molley Ricketts – www.IncipioWorks.com [http://www.IncipioWorks.com] · Jason Heflin – www.CrowdSouth.com [http://www.CrowdSouth.com] We hope you found this file insightful and helpful. Thank you for listening!