Beyond The Billboard

Brand is the Operating System for Demand (with Brent Bowles) | Ep. 38

The debate between brand marketing and performance marketing is over: they are the same thing. Or at least, they should be. Brent Bowles [https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentbowles/], Senior Director of Growth at Upwork [https://www.upwork.com/], joins the show to dismantle the idea that brand is just "vibes." For Brent, brand is the operating system that makes every performance dollar work harder. If your brand spend isn't lowering your CAC or improving win rates, it is just expensive noise. In this episode, Brent takes us inside Upwork's sophisticated growth engine. He reveals how they used Times Square billboards not for mass awareness, but as a "strategic weapon" to target a specific group of 200 investors. He also shares an unexpected lesson in consistency from a Detroit personal injury law firm that became a cultural icon. ㅤ Guest Bio Brent Bowles [https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentbowles/] is the Senior Director of Growth at Upwork [https://www.upwork.com/], the world’s leading work marketplace. Based in the San Francisco Bay Area, Brent oversees the paid acquisition and growth teams that drive Upwork’s client acquisition engine. His remit covers a massive portfolio of channels, including paid search, social, podcasts, CTV, and affiliates. Before joining Upwork, Brent served as VP of Digital Marketing at Wells Fargo. There, he helped transform the bank's performance marketing from early experiments into a nine-figure annual operation. He specializes in scaling complex marketing ecosystems in regulated and competitive industries, balancing strict compliance with aggressive growth targets. ㅤ Key Takeaways Brand Is Not Vibes, It’s Math: Brent rejects the notion that brand marketing is unmeasurable. He views brand as the "operating system for demand." It must account for itself through Media Mix Modeling (MMM) and its ability to improve the efficiency of lower-funnel performance channels. OOH as a "Strategic Weapon": For Upwork’s Investor Day, the goal wasn't broad reach. They bought expensive media on the NASDAQ building to target a specific room of 200 analysts and investors. It was a precision strike designed to create a "spectacle" and control the narrative for a single day. The Sam Bernstein Lesson: Brent breaks down his favorite example of Out-of-Home (OOH) effectiveness: The Sam Bernstein Law Firm in Detroit. By blanketing the city for decades, they turned a succession plan (father to children) into a public storyline. The lesson: absolute consistency creates cultural trust. The Integrated Portfolio: Upwork allocates 10-15% of its budget to experimental bets. The rest funds a core set of channels that feed off each other. When brand and performance are siloed, you lose the portfolio effect where one channel lowers the cost of another. ㅤ Quote of the Episode "I think it's disingenuous to think of brand as something separate from performance. It's all linked. Think of brand as the operating system that drives demand. When it works, it should boost performance. And when it doesn't work, it's just expensive noise... It's not vibes, it's math." - Brent Bowles ㅤ Key Moments 1. The Upwork Engine: How Brent manages growth across paid search, social, and CTV. 2. The "Strategic Weapon": Taking over Times Square for Investor Day. 3. The Philosophy: Why brand is the operating system for demand. 4. Creeping back into brand spend through rigorous measurement. 5. A Detroit Masterclass: What tech companies can learn from personal injury lawyers. 6. Frequency vs. Spectacle: Comparing long-term saturation to one-off events. 7. Using data to precision-target physical ads. ㅤ Links 1. Connect with Brent on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentbowles/] 2. Upwork [https://www.upwork.com/] 3. Connect with Charlie Riley [https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlieriley/] 4. Connect with Greg Wise [https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregwise/] 5. OneScreen.ai [https://www.onescreen.ai/] ㅤ Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help. Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com [https://scrappyabm.com/]. Let's get scrappy.

Inside Indie Venues Where Live Music Fans Are Captive (with Brian Donohoe ) | Ep. 37

Most people think of billboards as the first introduction to out-of-home advertising—“but there’s so much more to that.” Hosts Charlie Riley [https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlieriley/] and Greg Wise [https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregwise/] talk with Brian Donohoe [https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-donohoe-b042a66/] about place-based marketing: “leveraging signage, within a specific location,” literally inside the location, to “serve advertising at scale.” Brian shares the moment at a show in Chicago—during that “set break time”—when it felt “kind of crazy that there’s just zero brand presence here whatsoever,” and why indie venues and festivals can be a “captive” environment without “plastering ads all over the place.” The conversation covers independent music venues and festivals, live music fans, brand affinity and cultural relevance, and why marketers can’t “over index in mediums that they can easily attach a number to.” ㅤ 👤 GUEST BIO Brian Donohoe [https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-donohoe-b042a66/] is a media veteran for “almost 20 years,” with time on the agency side and “10 years at Google.” He’s the co-founder and chief commercial officer of Venue Ad Network [https://www.venueadnetwork.com], “an ad and sponsorship platform built exclusively with independent music venues and festivals,” giving brands opportunities to be “in some of the most iconic rooms, in the country.” He also talks about independent comedy venues as part of the network. ㅤ 📌 WHAT WE COVER 1. Why “Beyond the Billboard” exists: most people think “billboards,” but “there’s so much more to that” in out-of-home advertising 2. Place-based marketing as “leveraging signage, within a specific location,” and using screens that are “pre-wired as an out-of-home network” 3. The “set break time” insight: “really good energy in the room,” people “kind of milling around,” and “zero brand presence” (without “plastering ads all over the place”) 4. How venues already use screens for “band artwork” and “upcoming shows,” and how ads can be “slot[ted]” in between that content 5. Positioning the audience: “music fans, live music fans,” “they bought a ticket,” they’re “captive,” and how festivals can be more “genre specific” (folk country, hip hop, EDM) 6. The pitch for indie: “a third of shows are happening in indie rooms and festivals,” and why it’s an “untapped, uncluttered space” versus bigger partners 7. Who says yes: brands that already see “live music is a strategic pillar,” and what “street cred,” “brand affinity,” and “cultural relevance” look like in this environment 8. Measurement + expectations: moving away from treating every tactic like “one step removed from search,” attaching “awareness metrics,” and the idea that “just because you can attach some metric to a channel doesn’t necessarily mean that you should” 9. Experimentation: carving out budget to “experiment and try new stuff,” having a plan to evaluate, and “at some point you’re gonna have to roll the dice” ㅤ 🔗 RESOURCES MENTIONED 1. Venue Ad Network [https://www.venueadnetwork.com] 2. Contact: Brian (with an i) — brian@venueadnetwork.com 3. Rideshares mentioned: Lyft, Uber 4. Illinois Department of Transportation — “drive sober campaign,” “It’s Not a Game, Illinois” 5. Festivals mentioned: Lollapalooza, Coachella, Zoo Town (Montana), Pilgrimage (Nashville), North Coast (Chicago) 6. Companies / platforms mentioned: Google, YouTube, Omnicom, Resolution Media, OMD, PHD, Live Nation, AEG ㅤ Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help. Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com [https://scrappyabm.com/]. Let's get scrappy.

(Webinar Replay) The Rise of Out-of-Home in B2B Marketing | Ep. 36

Out-of-home is on fire in B2B, and it’s not just the big legacy brands. Host Nick Bennet sits down with Greg Wise [https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregwise/] and Charlie Riley [https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlieriley/] from Onescreen [https://www.onescreen.ai] to go through original research with 101 senior marketers on how out-of-home fits into today’s mix. They talk about 46% adoption in the past two years, mid-market SaaS and growth-stage brands leading the way, and why so many marketers still call out-of-home “boring” or “outdated” even while they see it everywhere. ㅤ Greg Wise [https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregwise/] and Charlie Riley [https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlieriley/] walk through real examples from Dreamforce, airports, roadside bulletins, bus shelters, digital billboards, wrapped vehicles, and street teams, and connect it all to A BM, field marketing, and brand campaigns. They break down how modern data, mobile devices, and telco aggregation power targeting and measurement, why creative is at least half the battle, and how out-of-home gives events, PR, and paid digital an extra layer of air cover that helps everything else hit harder. ㅤ 📌 WHAT WE COVER * Current state of B2B out-of-home adoption: 46% of marketers in the report used out-of-home in the past two years, with mid-market and growth-stage SaaS companies, series A and above, often leading the way instead of only Fortune 100 or legacy enterprise brands. * The perception gap: “boring and outdated” vs everywhere and memorable: Marketers describe out-of-home as boring or outdated while also recalling roadside bulletins, airport ads, transit ads, LED trucks, billboards, and city activations around Dreamforce, Moscone, and other venues. * Art and science: data, placements, and creative on the same canvas: Greg Wise [https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregwise/] and Charlie Riley [https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlieriley/] explain how one screen [https://www.onescreen.ai] subscribes to hundreds of data sources, combines demographic, psychographic, and consumer data, and then pairs that with creative that is simple, bold, fast to read, and tied to the brand instead of just blowing up a Facebook ad. * Why mid-market and venture-backed brands are leaning in: Series A and above companies with 15–30 million raised, fast growth, and well-known VCs are feeling the squeeze on digital, seeing CAC and other numbers slide, and turning to out-of-home for physical brand presence and a real moat as AI levels the playing field. * Targeting in modern out-of-home: How aggregation of telco data and 250–260 million unique devices per day enables targeting by audience attributes, movement patterns, zip codes, and inventory that index highest for specific groups, from job-related profiles to Whole Foods shoppers and fitness enthusiasts. * Measurement that goes beyond guessing: Ways marketers are measuring brand lift, organic and direct search, web traffic in exposed vs non-exposed markets, target account list activity, meetings, event or demo requests, and recall, especially when out-of-home runs alongside A BM and other campaigns. * Events, trade shows, and swarm tactics: Why “swarm events” are such a strong use case: wrapped cars and buses, street teams handing out coffee or hot chocolate, experiential executions, airport luggage belts, transit on the way from the airport to the venue, hotel elevators, and even ambush ideas like branded urinal cakes. * Out-of-home as amplifier, not silo: How out-of-home provides air cover for LinkedIn ads, sales outreach, PR, and launches; supports A BM and field marketing; and lifts everything from booth traffic and conference ROI to brand recall, rather than replacing digital or being an afterthought. * Planning early as inventory tightens: The importance of planning 2026 campaigns now as inventory in major and tier one markets dries up, especially with events like the World Cup coming and multiple brands chasing the same premium billboards and real estate. ㅤ 🔗 RESOURCES MENTIONED * Onescreen.ai [https://www.onescreen.ai] – the out-of-home platform and team behind the research and campaigns discussed. * Winter – research partner that ran the study with about 101 marketers. * Dreamforce & Moscone – examples of major tech events and city takeovers with LED trucks, billboards, and other activations around San Francisco. * BART – transit example tied to train ads and out-of-home formats on the way into San Francisco. * JetBlue & the Dunking Donuts plane – memorable aviation and airport branding recalled after Dreamforce. * HSBC airport campaigns – long-running jet bridge and airport executions referenced as consistent, high-frequency out-of-home. * Catalent bus shelters in New York City – premium bus shelters with creative built for dwell time and storytelling. * Whole Foods – part of an example audience segment tied to shopping behavior and fitness enthusiasts. * Gong and Udi – example of a call recording brand that invested early in out-of-home and built a strong moat in a space that now has several AI-driven competitors. * Minority Report & Tom Cruise – used as a reference point for where targeting and personalization could theoretically go in the future. ㅤ Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help. Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com [https://scrappyabm.com/]. Let's get scrappy.

Funnels That Never Worked, Buyers That Actually Buy (with Patrick Cumming) | Ep. 35

Funnels that never really worked, buyers that do their own homework, and a performance marketing agency that wants to be its own best case study sit at the center of this conversation. Host Charlie Riley [https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlieriley/], head of marketing at one screen, and co-host Greg Wise [https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregwise/] talk with Patrick Cumming [https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-james-cumming/], Director of Marketing at KlientBoost, about moving away from made up funnels and running demand generation based on how buyers actually buy. ㅤ Patrick shares how he went from retail and moonlighting as a copywriter to leading marketing at a performance marketing agency with the most published wins for any agency, why 95% of the market is out of market and 5% is in market, and how to reach actual buyers without trying to warm prospects through imaginary stages. The group digs into CPMs, frequency, B2B SaaS SQLs, LinkedIn, out-of-home, and why marketers should not be afraid to talk about revenue while still keeping the creative work fun. ㅤ GUEST BIO Patrick Cumming [https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-james-cumming/] is Director of Marketing at KlientBoost, a performance marketing agency with the most published wins (case studies, reviews, video testimonials) of any agency on the planet. He started out in the agency space as a copywriter, working two jobs in retail and moonlighting, then became the digital marketing guy at a brand marketing agency before joining KlientBoost to work with B2B clients. ㅤ Patrick built a LinkedIn presence in the B2B space, generated $50M+ pipeline for B2B Tech and SaaS companies through content marketing, paid search, and paid social demand generation and GTM strategies, and then pitched founder JD to let him take over marketing. Today he leads marketing at KlientBoost to add $250K MRR using the same strategies, principles, and processes rolled out for clients. ㅤ WHAT WE COVER * How Patrick moved from retail and moonlighting as a copywriter to the fast pace of agency life, bigger and bigger agencies, and then a decision to hyper focus and specialize on B2B marketing. * Why funnels never really worked in his experience, how companies guessed where people were in tofu, mofu, and bofu, and what changed when he discovered demand generation based on how buyers actually buy. * The 95% out of market and 5% in market view of a quarter, why most “in market” tools misread funnel data, and what happens when you focus less on optimizing for conversions and more on driving down CPM costs and getting the highest quality inventory for the cheapest. * The approach of hitting around 80%+ audience penetration with 10+ frequency roughly every 90 days, targeting actual buyers, and why you don’t need to warm prospects as much when you get the right message in front of someone who is in market right now. * How KlientBoost runs its own ad spend as experiments first, becomes its own best case study, and then rolls out proven campaigns to B2B SaaS companies with the highest close rate, highest ACV, and longest lifetime value. * Why Patrick believes companies should stop treating performance marketing and brand marketing as two separate things, and instead see channels like Facebook, LinkedIn ads, and out-of-home as ways to build brand and still expect incremental lift in inbound. * A look at an ABM project with huge ticket value where out-of-home ads around company HQ locations increased engagement scores, plus how sales teams, LinkedIn ads, out-of-home, linear TV, and CTV can surround the market with a coherent message. * The Salesforce static image ad example with a mascot that got attention but not recall of the message, and what that says about creative work that doesn’t clearly explain what the product is and why anyone should care. * How familiarity builds trust, why people often choose a brand they’ve already heard of, and why seeing a neighbor every day is enough to make you go to them first, even if you’ve never spoken. * Why marketers should focus less on what story they want to tell and more on what story the audience needs to hear, sell people what they want, then educate them on what they need later, and how that makes revenue conversations with CROs, CFOs, and CEOs easier. ㅤ RESOURCES MENTIONED * KlientBoost – The Performance Marketing Agency – performance marketing, paid media, performance creative, CRO, SEO, business intelligence, and “the most published wins for any agency.” * LinkedIn – personal brand building, DMs, thought leadership ads, and a key channel for B2B marketing and performance campaigns. * Dream Data – B2B attribution tool used to see journeys that started with an ad impression two years ago and would otherwise look like direct traffic. * Salesforce – example of a creative ad with a mascot, strong recall of the visual, but unclear product message and unclear reason to care. * Gong – example of a brand that many people remember for call recording, and a reminder to lean into what people trust you for before telling a bigger product story. * HubSpot – source of many playbooks and a contrast point for KlientBoost’s own experiments rather than just reading playbooks. * Google ads – part of a thought leader ad example where a CMO doubles budget, pipeline stays the same, and CAC goes through the roof, plus a key channel for paid search. * Facebook and LinkedIn ads – performance channels that can still build brand while driving revenue-focused campaigns. * Out-of-home, linear TV, and CTV – channels that add context, surround key markets, and support ABM plays like targeting HQ locations for million-plus ticket value deals. ㅤ Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help. Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com [https://scrappyabm.com/]. Let's get scrappy.

Out-of-Home as a Moment, Not a Box to Check (with Mitali Banerjee) | Ep. 34

Out-of-home sits in a market shaped by AI, shifting attention spans, post-COVID behavior, and more risk-averse briefs, yet it still has the power to stop people in their tracks. In this conversation, Charlie Riley [https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlieriley/] and Greg Wise [https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregwise/] sit down with Mitali Banerjee [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitalibanerjee/], who brings 15+ years across agency and brand roles, leading marketing for global and emerging brands and treating out-of-home as a core, omnichannel tool rather than an afterthought. ㅤ Together they explore how agencies are navigating an AI-driven landscape, why loyalty between clients and agencies looks different, where specialization truly matters, and how smart out-of-home strategy connects audience, context, and cultural moments. Mitali’s examples—from Chubb’s US Open presence to small, scrappy event-driven campaigns—show how thoughtful placements, wayfinding, and experience-led thinking help brands show up with excellence, not just logos on billboards. ㅤ 👤 GUEST BIO Mitali Banerjee [https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitalibanerjee/] has spent 15+ years across agency and brand sides, leading marketing for large global brands such as Dell and Chubb Insurance as well as launching smaller brands through digital transformations like Davi Skincare. She calls herself omnichannel, with out-of-home as a core focus in strategies for product launches, campaigns, and engagement-driven work. With a strong love for the power of out-of-home to shift attention, spark conversations, and bring brands top of mind, she brings a clear, practical lens on how audience, culture, and channel thinking come together. ㅤ 📌 WHAT WE COVER * How Mitali sees agencies and brands recalibrating roles in the age of AI while still holding onto enduring fundamentals. * Why recent years have brought less bravery, more risk aversion, and pressure to “do better with less” — and what that means for creative and brand DNA. * The shift from long-standing, loyalty-based agency relationships to clients pushing for agility, efficiency, and specialized partners. * Where specialized agencies win: strategy, execution chops, speed, and integrating out-of-home within a wider channel ecosystem instead of operating in a silo. * The gap in true out-of-home ownership: when resizing assets replaces thinking about consumer experience, placement strategy, and how people actually move through environments. * How Chubb Insurance used US Open sponsorship, experience design, and surrounding out-of-home as a cohesive wayfinding and excellence story rather than a simple awareness play. * Why moments marketing, cultural events, and product launches are missed opportunities when out-of-home is treated as a late-stage add-on instead of a lead channel. * Education, market knowledge, and “the marriage of data, art, and science” as must-haves for brands and agencies new to out-of-home. ㅤ 🔗 RESOURCES MENTIONED * Chubb Insurance * Dell * Davi Skincare * US Open (tennis) ㅤ Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help. Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com [https://scrappyabm.com/]. Let's get scrappy.