Behind the Scenery

Canyon explorer/hiker extraordinaire. Noted Grand Canyon book author. Family guy. And medical doctor to Grand Canyon National Park. Join us for an in-depth, fun, and at times personal interview with a fascinating human being: Dr. Tom Myers. Also, learn who is really to blame for many of Grand Canyon’s medical incidents, injuries, and mishaps! --- TRANSCRIPT: --- ♫Guitar and singing: ♫Hiking away again in Grand Canyon, ♫Searching for my elec-tro-lytes (salt, salt, salt), Dr. Myers quote (Sometime it's on the path it's on the path most rocky that you will find your footing most true.) ♫Some people claim, there’s a Ran-ger to blame, ♫But I know, it’s my own darn fault. Grand Canyon. Where hidden forces shape our ideas, beliefs, and experiences. Join us as we uncover the stories between the canyon’s colorful walls. Probe the depths and add your voice for what happens next at Grand Canyon. Hello and welcome. This is Jesse. This is Emily. And this is: Behind the Scenery. “Hiking Away again in Grand Canyon.” Indeed! How about completing 300 Grand Canyon hiking/backpacking trips? How would you like to spend over 1000 days hiking/exploring below the rim? How about releasing a new 430-page book about your seven-year quest to hike the entire length of the Grand Canyon? A though-hike feat accomplished by maybe around 60 people only, in modern history? Oh, let’s also throw in over 40 Grand Canyon Colorado River raft trips? And a couple other Grand Canyon books, including the best-selling: Over The Edge/Death in the Grand Canyon book. 600-pages! Lists all know fatal mishaps in Grand Canyon. Sold over ¼ million copies! All of this, on your own time. Hello. My name is ranger Doug. I am a summertime park ranger at the North Rim of Grand Canyon National Park. I would like to introduce you to Tom Myers. He is the dude who has accomplished all of the above. But wait. There’s more. Actually his full name is Doctor Tom Myers. Yes, you guessed it, medical doctor Tom Myers. That’s his day job: Doctor to Grand Canyon National Park. Since 1990. Yes, there is a medical clinic on the South Rim of Grand Canyon National Park. On call 24/7. Seeing patients, many of whom are having the worst day of their lives. Over time, Dr. Myers has become an expert in understanding heat-related problems. Currently he and his wife Becky live in Flagstaff, Arizona and have three grown children and two grandchildren. In late May, 2025, Dr. Tom Myers came to the North Rim of Grand Canyon National Park, as a guest speaker. To deliver a public talk and slide program titled: Lessons from Life and Death at Grand Canyon. While visiting the North Rim, I thought it might be nice to have a conversation with this fascinating man. I invited him to join me for an in depth, wide-ranging and at times personal interview … looking into his life and park experiences. You are in for a real Grand Canyon treat. Dr. Tom Myers, come on in. Join me. Welcome. Dr. Myers: My name is Tom Myers. I am a physician by training. And I would like your listeners to know that I consider myself a hopeless Grand Canyon addict. Pretty much love everything Grand Canyon and probably a lot like them and, the reason they're tuned into this podcast. Doug: OK why become a physician? Dr. Myers: I'd like to preface that answer by saying I'm a Mamma 's boy. I always have been. My mother is still alive by the way. She's 92 years old. My mother raised myself and my siblings on her own. It was very difficult and I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for her. My mom had careers picked out a professions for all of us, my siblings and myself. Like lawyer or doctor or banker but the two she seemed to hold in highest regard were priests and doctors. And she's very devout Catholic so she loved priests. But she also loved doctors and she would say “I have seven sons. One of you needs to be a priest. And one of you to be a doctor.” I remember thinking a priest? That ain't happening at least not with me you know girls are way too fascinating. You know I'm I might want one someday I did want one someday. I thought let Dave or Terry or Jim or John or Joe or Jerry have that priest job. And I'll I'll be a doctor. Anyway, she planted the seed. I didn't want to disappoint didn't want to disappoint her. She also told me that, you know, medicine was a noble career and a path out of poverty. And we were a welfare families so that also had an impact and that's why I started down the road to be a Doctor. Doug: OK. What Grand Canyon pictures or art or memorabilia do you have on your wall at home or at your medical office and tell me about some of those and why they speak to you? Dr. Myers: Most of the ones that we have on the walls at my house and there are a lot of them and memorabilia are things of photos that I collected with my adventures and explorations in the Canyon with my family. You know the ones that were there where where I was there with the ones I love most in my life. You know whether it's down at Phantom or somewhere remote those are the ones I cherish. And so a lot of those fortunately Becky hasn't been too annoyed that I put Canyon stuff up everywhere. Besides photos that take me back to a place in time and a memory, because really for me it's about the memories not the miles, but besides those that we have quite a collection of old Canyon signs they're ones that were hand routered. I had a friend that when I working on the South rim as a doctor the same time I was there the guy who has had the sign shop I went to high school with him and he was a buddy and I just asked him “hey do you have any old signs that are now obsolete that you're getting rid of?” “I guess sure Tom you can have this or that” and so I got some of those. But one of my favorites, it's kind of a cool story, but before they built the mile and a half rest houses there used to be a sign down at Havasupai Garden that said: last toilets until South Rim. So you're hiking up it's like you need do you needed to know you needed to use the restroom before you start it out because that was the last toilet for four and a half miles until you got to the rim. So when that was built, the mile and a half rests houses, that sign became obsolete. And I saw it in the trash pile with my friend who was the Ranger down there at the Garden at Time and I said “hey what you do with that?” He said “probably burn it. You know it's gonna be thrown away.” I'm like “can I have it?” He said “sure.” So I hiked it out and put it in the bathroom in our house at the South Rim. And within a few days of doing that, Robert Arnberger, who is a Superintendent and his wife Alvira, came over for dinner. And Rob said “hey I need to use the rest room.” “Yeah, sure, go ahead, it’s right over there.” And then Becky I looked at each other and went “uh oh, that sign’s in there.” And I thought “oh man, he might think I stole it.” And then he came out and he was laughing cause he knew the sign was obsolete and he was like “God I just love that sign.” So that's one of my favorite. Doug: OK cool. Now often physicians they specialize in a certain part of a medicine you know internal medicine cardiology whatnot. Why didn't you specialize? Dr Myers: Well you know honestly Doug I think an even better question from my perspective was: why stayed in medicine at all? And when I get to into medical school I got to be you know completely honest I was disenchanted with the career. I wasn't sure I wanted it to be a doctor. Ranger Doug: Why is that? Dr. Myers: Well, you know, the whole process was grueling you know it's all consuming you know it's really disheartening a lot of ways. The pressure was tremendous. You'd ask me one point about a mentorship and I'll talk about that but I didn't find ... I didn't have a mentor physician within that training somebody that I really aspired to be like. And so when I got to my senior year I told Becky “I don't want to do this. I don't think I'm very good at it as a matter of fact I think I'm probably suck at it, you know” and I said “I'd like to leave.” And she said “well I’ll support you whatever you want to do.” But that being said I also knew then I spent years and years and you know thousands of hours and a lot of money toward that career. And I would have a debt, my school debt, to pay off. And I decided to do my internship and just kind of see what happened. And I was in internal medicine. I got to the end of that year and I told the director I’m still searching for you know, for some place in the field. I wasn't really convinced that it was my path in life. And I told the director “I was leaving the program.” He said “wow, well what are you going to do?” And I said “I think I'm going to go to the Grand Canyon.” And he looks at me he goes, “What are you Myers, some kind of dirt farmer?” And I'm like: “No.” And he goes: “Well what would you do at the Grand Canyon?” And I said: “I'm thinking about being an interpretive Ranger.” He goes: “really”, he goes “what does that mean? You gonna give a Smokey the Bear enemas?” And I'm like: “no, an interp.ranger tells stories and educates the public about the place.” And I said: “That's what I think I might want to do as well.” “Good luck.” Long story short, I did eventually get my license to practice medicine, and I think Grand Canyon sort of found me. But that's a whole another story. But I ended up there and found out that yeah I really had a place in medicine. And it was in primary care as a general practice doctor. Just kind of a Jack of all trades which actually appealed to me in a lot of ways because I could see and diagnose and treat a lot of things and not I wasn't sort of focused in on one specialty. Doug: OK and you mentioned in your book about a mentor. Talk about having a mentor in your professional life and what's the value of having such a mentor? Dr. Myers: I think having a mentor really can't you know the value of it can't be overestimated. In my case at least mine was a guy named Jim his name was Jim Wurgler. He was a physician. He's the same age as my father. He came to Grand Canyon clinic in the late 80s after 20 years of being a physician in Yosemite National Park. So meeting him, the impression I have from the very get go was like oh this is the guy I haven't had all through medical school or even residency this is the guy I needed. Because he was he was so humble. He wasn't like an urban physician. His goals weren't to go play golf or you know have cocktails at the you know some high high end restaurant and nice meals and all that. He loved wild places. He loved the outdoors. He liked being a Jack of all trades when it came to medicine. You know, he could set fractures he could you know, do well child exams. Could treat heart attacks. He could do it all. But he was really kind and really humble. He's the best doctor I've ever known. And he took me under his wing and he taught me how to be a good physician. I don't think I'll ever …I've never been as good as doctor Wurgler. But I just, you know, cherish the time with him. I cherished learning from him and his passion for medicine. And he and I were on call. We split call every other night for emergencies. It was tough you know 24/7 you know 365 days a year. To handle all the after hour emergencies. And you know with doctor Wurgler though I knew because he was older than me, that the my days with him were limited. So I did cherish them. And some of my favorite memories, one of my favorite, actually at the end of the day, especially when we were so busy in the 90s with all those emergencies, Doctor Wurgler, who went by J-dub. You know J-dub would sit down his pen and he'd stare out the window, kind of looked longingly out in the distance. And say: “well Tom, so ends another hell day in paradise.” (Chuckles) And I'll never forget doctor Wurgler. He passed away several years ago but you know, if it wasn't for his mentorship I would have not had the career I've had at Grand Canyon. Ranger Doug: oh. That's great. Dr. Myers: Yeah I went to Grand Canyon because of doctor Wurgler. It wasn't because of the Canyon. I met him I went: “I went to work with that guy.” Ranger Doug: Well later on, you did kind of specialize in heat related issues. Can you talk about that a little bit? Dr. Myers: Yeah you know I think that uh, my understanding is he is not you know I I have a special interest in it. My goal was to understand it. You know and then use what I learned for prevention … to prevent heat related morbidity, mortality, with our visitors. You know and anybody. The single biggest motivation for learning about heat was the death of a 10-year-old hiker that I was involved with or you know had to try to treat. He died from heat stroke. His name was Phillip Grim. This was his tragic death occurred in July of 1996. His well-intentioned grandma and great uncle hiked him down the South Kaibab to Phantom. Yeah and what turned out to be the hottest day of the year. It was 116 degrees that day. Uh. Unfortunately you know he went into heat stroke down down at the bottom of the Canyon and he died within you know, 50 yards of Bright Angel Creek and 100 yards of the river. He still died from heatstroke. And he was flown out and we ran a full life support treatment up there and but couldn't he couldn't be resuscitated. And calling that code, it was it was you know, his death was one of the saddest moments of my career. And even sadder was speaking to his mother afterward. And talking to his grandma and great uncle. It was just tragic as mom told me that “it just tore my world apart” you know. And I thought to myself, it's like, “no one should die this way in the Grand Canyon especially a child.” You know so that's when I decided to try to make a difference about trying to prevent such deaths in the future and understanding heat illness and the nuances of it was part of that. And then educating people from what I've learned. Doug: So what changes have you seen in park medical problems over the years? Dr. Myers: Yes. There's an old saying you know within the Park Service and the EMS world that there's no new accidents it's just new faces, it's the same old accidents. One thing is, so there's a lot of trends in in certain areas that we will always have I think here. Fatalities or you know people will suffer you know morbid morbidity and mortality like heat illness, falls. The trend or the change that I see that's different from when I started almost 40 years ago is an older population like baby boomers. And people who are have Grand Canyon adventuring like hiking or river running on their bucket list. And they're really past their prime. And a lot of these folks, they overestimate their ability and they underestimate underestimate the wilderness, but they're really intent on trying to do this this one goal you know that's one last hurrah while they still can. And so we're seeing I think a little bit of an older shift in older population who are, suffering, you know, some of these issues of like say heat related death or cardiac arrest because they're they're pushing the envelope at an older age. Doug: OK. So you did write a 600 page book, co-authored that, about death in the Grand Canyon. You know, this seems like kind of a morbid subject. So why write such a book? Dr. Myers: Well you know I think that when you say it is a morbid subject, I mean that's absolutely true. It it is morbid but that said it's equally true that most of us if we're honest will admit that we have a morbid fascination with death. I mean you look at Internet or TV or movies or other book books, death sells! It always has but there's a lot to be learned from death. You know it's been through studies on morbidity mortality that you know we have seatbelts and car seats for infants and children and life jackets and motorcycle helmets you know et cetera. Yeah in order to teach somebody, and then order to teach somebody something in the area where fatalities have occurred, you have to get their attention first. And so if a tragic accident is presented, say one that there's a sequence of poor decision making that's somewhat compelling to find out you know what led him into this ultimate fatal outcome, you know, if there's a sequence of that and it and it triggers the person 's curiosity and that even if it's morbid of a curiosity, that when you hold their attention in that moment, then you slip in a lifesaving lesson you know about what could be done to prevent a future fatality. And repeat someone dying the same way as the person you just presented. So that's the whole point of it of this book is tell us you know a a story one of morbid curiosity a tragic death perhaps but then slip in the life saving lesson when you have someone 's attention. Doug: OK. What, co-writing book 600 pages got to be a monumental undertaking. What are you most proud of about this book? Dr., Myers: Well I I can say without a doubt I'm most proud of the tragedies that haven't occurred because of it you know the ones that you'll never read about or I'll never read about or no one will hear about because someone made an informed decision, a lifesaving one, say by not hiking at the hottest time of the day or the hottest time of the year because they read the book. You know for what it's worth I've been told that more times than I can remember about people who said “hey I changed my plans from potentially lethal ones to see maybe life sparing one because I read your book. I knew that this was a bad time to hike and I learned that from your book and I just want to say thanks.” And so you'll never read about them in there and I'm really proud of that. You can't measure a catastrophe that didn't happen or disaster that didn't happen. But you know I know there's definitely some people out there that didn't end up the book because they read it. Ranger Doug: OK well done. Now in your latest book you write about a memorable medical save of an infant. And I don't want to reveal that here the readers can read about that but I'm sure you've had other important medical saves, with air quotes, in your career. And so without violating any HIPAA laws, maybe tell us 2 or 3 of medical saves that you are particularly proud of. Dr. Myers: Sure. The one that stands out was shortly after I got out my internship and I I started working in the Williams healthcare center, a sister clinic to Grand Canyon. Before I was hired about 2 weeks later to work at Grand Canyon, I was I was there in Williams. And we got a call from the medical dispatcher that they were going to bring in some patients from a rollover accident on Interstate 40. So it was an MVA. And supposing that in this accident I could hear the nurse talking to this dispatcher about what happened it it was. She said “well yeah, seven people were involved in this accident, roll over, two were ejected. Those two are in critical condition. One of them would need what they call a crike, a crike with cricothyroidotomy, an emergency airway procedure because they had so much facial trauma they the medics couldn't get an airway tube through the mouth into the throat. And I remember talking to her and she had the phone said “hey doctor Meyer as well, you need to know this they're bringing in seven patients our way our way two are in critical condition one needs to crike because of this airway issue.” And I'm like, “what? Norma that's like that's level one trauma, you know they need a trauma surgeon they need an anesthesiologist why they come in here?” And said: “well it's raining’ (it was raining cats and dogs and that's part of the reason that this van rolled over. It hydroplaned and and then rolled). And to get to Flagstaff even by ground ambulance so still probably an hour in that rain to get to the hospital and they couldn't fly him so they couldn't ground can fly and they didn't have an airway an airway is critical you know for oxygenation for the blood I mean for the brain you know for the heart you know all of our organ systems and so I told her I said her name was Norma the nurse I said “Norma, I've only done one cricothyroidotomy, one crick in my life and it was on a on a dog and it was part of our dog lab we learned procedures.” And she said: “well doctor Myers, you won't be able to say that in about 2 minutes you know.” And so, sure enough, they brought this patient in, a lot of trauma and I went ahead and did this procedure to get the airway into the the throat and you know it worked and we were able to send that patient out still alive. Another one that I remember that I'm particularly proud of, and think think of with with fond memories, was a hiker on the Tanner Trail in the early 1990s. Got a call it was after hours they were flying a guy out that was, he had excruciating abdominal pain and he was weak and numb from the waist down and really couldn't walk. And so I remember going to the clinic and seeing this guy who was I think in his early 40s or middle 40s at the time and he was kind of writhing because he had a severe abdominal pain. And the abdominal pain when did exam I found was you know very distended bladder. Unfortunately he was he had gotten progressively weak in this hike and then to the point where he started stumbling. Then he couldn't stand at all. And then he was unable to urinate. And on his exam he had a very distended bladder. He had with they called a neurogenic bladder. It wouldn't allow him to to urinate. So we had to place a Foley catheter into his bladder which when his bladder was empty the abdominal pain went away. But on his exam he basically had paralysis from his waist down. It was a very critical situation and got on the phone and immediately flew him to Barrows Neurological Institute in Phoenix where they had neurosurgeons on call. And you know I had to look it up actually I I knew it was serious and it was his history and condition was consistent what they call a Cauda Equina Syndrome, cauda equina lower part of the spinal cord. And something was happening there was putting pressure on that area and he was going paralyzed. And so flew him down there he was taken to emergency surgery. I knew he got through the surgery fine, but then he was lost in follow up. Ranger Doug: What does that mean, lost in follow up? Dr. Myers: Oh you know, I never heard from him again. I sent him there and then the care was transferred and so I had no, and at that point, you know, we didn't have cell phones. I didn't have access to trying to call them and find out how things were going. But about 20 years later, I had a phone call, a number that was referred to me, about a guy who wanted to speak to this doctor that saved his life supposedly. And he was looking for a doctor named Michael something and and I didn't know the name of Michael. I I talked to doctor Wurgler, my mentor, and I said “hey do you remember anybody that was working in the clinic then in the 90s that might have seen this guy?” Because we had resident doctors coming through and he didn't remember him. And I said: “OK, well.” I called the guy and and started talking to him. And he started telling me the story he said you know “it was really I was really worried I was really scared you know and we I had to flash a jet with a a mirror you know to get attention and they made the calls that was routed over ultimately to Grand National Park in the park.” And the park flew in and got him. But it was a mirror flash. And he said: “I was so concerned you know and I I thought I was gonna die and I you know, and I saw this doctor and he I told him what was happening.” I go and he said; “I was starting to go numb. I go: “oh let me finish this story.” And I told him that and he goes: “yeah” he goes: “you know it.” And I go: “yeah the Doctor you saw was me.” Ranger Doug: Oh wow! And he said “I just wanted to tell you, I thank you for saving my life.” I said: “well it wasn't your life but it was your spinal cord. And he had a he had a bleeding into his spinal column and was putting pressure on his lower spinal cord and that's why he was going paralyzed. And it could have become life threatening but certainly at that point you know it threatened paralysis. Ranger Doug; So how did he come out from the surgery? Dr. Myers: Really really well from what he told me he only had partial weakness and numbness in one leg but otherwise was able to walk and you know almost a complete recovery. And that was really gratifying all those years later that he tried to track me down, so. Ranger Doug: Wow Oh well well done on that I'm sure there was very satisfying. Dr. Myers: Thanks. It was. Ranger Doug: You got a new book out called the The Grandest Trek. Subtitle: Unforgettable people stories and lessons from life and from hiking length of the Grand Canyon. Now 400 pages storytelling sharing the lives and motivations of some really elite Grand Canyon hikers. These are kind of super hiker folks that route find. They pre-place resupply caches with water and food. And they hike mostly off trail through the length, end-to-end of the Grand Canyon, trek you know some 600 miles. Maybe only 60 odd individuals have accomplished this hike, this task, in modern times. I loved that the book is also as you advertise it, a love story about you and your family. You completed the hiking trek. Took you seven and a half years, 16 different, what are called “section hikes” kind of linking it all together. Sixty-odd hiking days, 600+ Grand Canyon miles, you know, not an easy accomplishment. So well done on just accomplishing that. On Page three of the book and you say this book is in fact a love story which I completely agree with. So without revealing any surprise endings to your stories please tell the listeners, a little bit some of the hikers you profiled and why you chose them. Dr. Myers: Well, I chose the ones I did because I didn't want their unique stories and their special legacies to be lost to the sand time. Honestly that that was really important to me. I wanted to honor them and document their tales as hiking greats. And I wanted to document that part of our hiking heritage before it was too late. I always felt like with hiking the Grand Canyon there was a rich legacy as rich as river runners. You know river runners in in lot of literature there was so much out there on John Wesley Powell and Georgie White. There was a lot of stuff written on river runners but for the hiking community we just didn't have much but I knew there was a rich legacy there. And I wanted to get that documented. So choosing Kenton Grua. who was the first person known to have hiked the length, was a no brainer. I really wanted to tell a story. He was someone I knew well and that he had what I think may be the greatest love affair with the Grand Canyon that anyone has ever had. More than anybody I know. George Steck was another guy that I really wanted to highlight. He was a hiking mentor of mine and a father figure. He wrote 2 books Grand Canyon Loop, Hikes One and Two. And he's considered the godfather of lengthwise hiking. He was a genius, he was brilliant. But he also had his playful and mischievous side. And he loved Grand Canyon about about as much as Kenton or as anybody could. And I want George, his legacy legacy to be out there. As far as everybody else it was it was similar you know that these are special people. These are hiking greats. These people, you know they should shouldn't be forgotten. And so that was a big motivation. I also wanted to get in their heads you know and that's so much a you know how they did it or when they did it but the who they were and the why that they did it. That was really important to me. Ranger Doug: Do you uh do you want to read the book dedication. Do you have that? Dr. Myers: Uh let's see: all proceeds from the sale of this book will be donated to the Grand Canyon Conservancy in the memory of Robert Eschebenson, one of the Grand Canyon 's greatest hikers. Ranger Doug: So why him and why the Grand Canyon Conservancy? Dr. Myers: Well I'll start with the Conservancy which was founded in 1932. I'm a lifetime member. I joined when it was the Grand Canyon Natural History Association. But the Conservancy is the parks official philanthropic and collaborative partner. You know I make the I'm making the donation to the Conservancy I I do in the hopes that the healing powers of the Canyon which the Conservancy has done so much to support over the years, will touch the life of someone in need. Someone like Robert Benson. You know that's that's really and for Robert if you want I could tell you you know who he was and it kind of thought giving. All of it away. Ranger Doug: Yeah there's a good surprise ending about him true. Dr. Myers: Yeah there is. But you know he he was just an astounding hiker. And I love the fact that he loved Canyon Country so much and would seek it out for adventure for you know, solace, for self-worth, for so many reasons. But a very unique man. I wish I could have met him. I never did. I would love to have talked to him but it's nice to I think it's nice to honor him in the book and you know have the proceeds done it in his name and so that his legacy will live on. His life was far too short but I want his legacy to live on. Ranger Doug: Well well well well done and you have an opening quote you want To read that. Dr. Myers: Oh sure sometime it's on the path it's on the path most rocky that you will find your footing most true. Ranger Doug: So tell me about that. Dr. Myers: Well it's obviously a metaphor. It's one for life. I think it's tempting and far easier to choose a path of least resistance in life. But sometimes that path less traveled, you know the one that you know the the path that's less traveled you know the the one that's far more difficult and rocky, say like hiking in the Grand Canyon, but it's that path that difficult one that will take you to a destination that leaves you more fulfilled. For me it was medicine you know and I I liken that journey to a hiking the Grand Canyon. It was very very hard you know and you start off enthusiastic and excited but the going gets rough immediately, especially going off trail. And often you feel you know that you're just way in over your head. You're confronted with terrifying exposure. Your, the landscape you feel abused by it and you know wears you out. But, you know you keep going and going. And sometimes you're convinced you're completely on the wrong path, you know you keep going and going and just like in the Grand Canyon, like a medicine the further you go the harder it is to turn around. You know and but You you you hope and pray that the destination will be worth the journey and sometimes it is on that rocky path that you're going to get to that destination you're going to feel mostly you're going to feel more fulfilled. And you look back and you go: “that footing was true to me because I was being true to myself by taking that path.” Now about that kind of taking the path like that I'm going to say you know a lot of us you know the path is chosen for you. I mean people who endure horrible things in medicine you know that's not a path they wanted or you know sometimes a setback. Say what you were born into. Poverty. An abusive family. That's not the path that you wanted. But you know it's it's what you have to deal with it might be terrible almost unbearable. It's not the one you wanted but it's what you got. And now it's up to you to try to navigate and do something with it. You know as far as that line Doug I I first came up with it about 20 years ago. And I put it up … I put it into a letter that I wrote my daughter when she was going going off to college. And I and I have an excerpt of the rest of another phrase a little more of that letter. Where that phrase was used I can share it with you if I want I have it here? Ranger Doug: Sure go ahead. Dr. Myers: So I told her I said her name is Alexandra she's my middle daughter: Follow your heart but allow wisdom and experience your own and that of others to guide you. Let enlightenment that from within and that of the divine, inspire you. Live the life you choose to the fullest. Strive to leave nothing on the table of regret. Use determination and strength to carry you to your goals. Make honor integrity steer your footfalls, not fear. But courage and but courage light your your way and remember sometimes it's on the path most rocky that you will find your footing most true. But it won't always be rocky. It won't. And there will be plenty of flowers along the way. Never forget to stop and smell them. Ranger Doug: Wow. Well done. Book authors labor long and hard to craft a finished product. Please pick out two or three of your favorite written passages if you would. Please read them and tell us why you're especially proud of them. Dr. Myers: OK. Sure. In my introduction where I mentioned that the book is love story as you said, I speak to what I call dancing lessons. Meaning that hiking and exploring the Canyon on foot is somewhat of a dance. And the ending passage of my introduction my dancing lessons goes like this: As love stories often do this book includes thrills as well as laughter and delight. Some moments worthy of dancing and leaping. Yet they're also times of anger fear intense sorrow and heartbreak. Taken together it's a heady mix of lessons for life learned in one of the most spectacular dance floors on earth. And while the Grand Canyon clearly rewards efforts made to learn the steps and rhythms, Mother Nature serves up here is just as clear that is a place where bad decisions or bad luck can end the dance forever if the steps are worth it. Though some have suffered grieve and even lost themselves in the stance, far more including me have rejoiced in being found. So I really like that I feel like it captures my feelings about, you know, learning the steps and rhythms and, you know, how to dance in the place like the Grand Canyon. So I felt that was something I'm proud of how I articulated in. Ranger Doug: OK. Do you have another one Dr. Myers: I do. This other line occurs where I mentioned how I loved Kenton Grua. Again the the first man to walk the length of, a friend of mine. And in a particular chapter remark about how much he loved this place the Grand Canyon which was something we shared. So the next line I say after that it it's just one of my favorites, is this: For seekers of beauty solitude and adventure within Canyon country there is none greater. The Grand Canyon, with its Colorado River, is the earth 's glory hole … the geologic jackpot and lithic Nirvana. Ranger Doug: Wow. Dr. Myers: For me that's what it is. I mean I think it's I think it's the glory hole. I think it's it doesn't get any better than this especially for Canyon Country. It is it's the it's the you know the big enchilada. The cat's meow et cetera et cetera. Ranger Doug: OK yeah those are all under statements when you stand on the rim and look at the Grand Canyon. Dr. Myers: Yeah. Ranger Doug: Anymore? Dr. Myers: Well those the ones I came up with. Ranger Doug: OK why I got one for you a question you know. We are an international dark sky National Park. Grand Canyon is. And we regularly have visiting and resident astronomers to the park. They share their love of the dark skies. And I like to make them stop and ponder when I ask them this question: “What is more impressive to you while you're at the Grand Canyon? Looking down? Or Looking up? And for you I'd like to kind of tweak this question a little bit, uh, because I know below the rim there are places where a visitor can actually look straight ahead and enjoy awesome views. I'm thinking of maybe the Tonto Platform and out on the Escalade area, which I've never been before. So here's my question to you: Please share with me a couple of your favorite places within Grand Canyon National Park for: looking down? Looking up? And looking straight ahead? And why did you pick those locations? Dr. Myers: Hmm. Well. They’re tough. You know, it's kind of like a trying to asked me to pick my favorite child of my three, which I love them all the same. But, there's so many potential answers. Ranger Doug: Like just shoot me some that come off your head. Dr. Myers: There are. You know, like you I I think I would say my overall favorite views are from on the Tonto Platform, or down inside. Because, if you're on the Tonto, say midway, you can look down into you know the inner gorge. And it's spectacular. I think your your your reference your frame of reference is a little bit better because you're so close to these huge drop offs which are sometimes spectacular. And you can look up toward the rim so you get both of those, you know, kind of very front and center. But I would say say looking down from the rim country the Cape Solitude area in eastern Grand Canyon kind of the Navajo reservation side it's kind of just a little bit out from the Desert View area which I love that those views but over there the the river snakes out into the distance you know far below you and it's just spectacular how it winds over there. And then the buttes seem to just loom you know like Chuar. It's just amazing. And then you have this jagged outline of the the Palisades of the Desert you know just this picket fence sort of formation. And then looking upstream you have views into Marble Canyon and the Marble Plateau and then the Painted Desert way out there. So it's breathtaking to me. Those are one of my those are one of my all time favorites I will say also as far as rim views here at the North Rim like say Cape Royal and looking way to the South and to the Canyon and then out in the distance see the San Francisco peaks or you see Bill Williams Mountain you can see Red Butte I mean it's just it's spectacular as well. I love the views from the North Rim. Them looking up you know one of my favorites is from the river when you're below Comanche Point and on the river you look up at it. It just towers and it's very pointy and it looks like it's separated from the rim it's actually not but it looks like the Matterhorn. And it's just this huge promontory and it's spectacularly beautiful. I love that view from looking up. Looking straight ahead in the sprawling Esplanade in western Grand Canyon you mentioned that and that's that's the Grand Canyon is a Big Sky country. I mean you just feel extra small there and and it's good for perspective on you know, you and your life. For me I just love the view of the Esplanade it stretches forever. Other areas I would like to look straight ahead are where if you're on the river, and there's the river is wall to wall so there's no shoreline it's wall to wall like the Red Wall gorge or upper upper and Middle Granite Gorge or the Muav Gorge, you know, it's just I love those views. Where you just have these these towers like the the Kliston Tower like Muav Gorge, 1200 feet high. And you know they just they just loom and it's those those are spectacular and you know. So why did they pick those? You know some of it depends on relative remoteness and how hard it is to get there in the mood at the time, I you know, I'm picking place that a lot of people haven't seen. The river? Yes. But some of the other areas a lot have a lot of people haven't seen them. So that said though you know a lot of the areas on the South Rim village area here in the North Rim, they're equally spectacular you know there's so many but those are some of my favorites. Ranger Doug: OK. On page 205 you write about a female patient of yours. Can you please read the entry. Dr. Myers: Sure. I never fully appreciate the incredible power of dependency until it's a patient with emphysema, AKA COPD, explained it to me. Despite experiencing what equates to slow motion suffocation she was hopelessly addicted to nicotine and continued to smoke. Early into the visit I had reflexively rattled off in standard doctor's speak “you need to quit smoking.” With tears in her eyes her gaze earnest, she sniffled. “Doctor, you don't understand. Cigarettes are my friend. Unlike people in my life, they've always been there when I need them most during stressful times. And they never judge me.” She told me she got hooked on cigarettes as a teenager. Instead of a snarky “well with friends like that you'll never need an enemy,” I stayed silent. Digesting what she said. And made an impact. In that empathetic moment with singular gratitude I thought of one of my own best friends. Ranger Doug: Can you stop there? Please bear with me let me set up a scenario for you. You are in a therapy group for addiction. I am the group facilitator uh can you play along with me? Dr. Myers: Of course. Ranger Doug: OK. “Now Tom I see you've been coming to the last few group therapy sessions. You really haven't said much instead you have sat quietly through our sessions. I think it is your time to speak now. I would like for you to please stand state your name and talk about your addiction. It may not be a true addiction. That's OK. Maybe you can call it one of your own best friends. Whatever. Explore how this best friend addiction makes you feel and what does having this best friend addiction mean to you. Dr. Myers: OK Ranger Doug: Please rise. Dr. Myers: Alright standing up. Hello my name is Tom Myers. I have a hopeless addiction to spending time with my good friend the Grand Canyon. This friend, one of my best, does not reciprocate the love I have for it. Nor does it care a wit for my well-being. But this friend gives me when I see it and spend time with it and explore it, this friendship, is a feeling of inspiration joy and euphoria as well as a sense of peace and contentment, I don't find anywhere else. At least not with this not the same level with similar friends and meaning similar landscapes. This sense of euphoria and inspiration is especially true when I hike it … the feel-good buzz I get from this friend after finishing a grueling hike is incredibly addicting. And it it just keeps me coming back for more and more to this very day. Yeah, like I can't get enough. Ha Ha! Ranger Doug: OK so that's your addiction? Dr. Myers: It is. Grand Canyon I mean. Yes. I believe people can be addicted to landscape I do in a in a healthy way. You know, they can be unhealthy if they take it to extremes, anything can be obviously. And I know for me you know there's been times where I've pushed it too much. But, you know, I I do feel like for the most part it's been something that's really been beneficial to my mind and body. Way more than harmful. Ranger Doug: OK well I have a magic wand in my hand. And I have two venues. And I have the power to bring back two people from the dead. Each has some connection to the Grand Canyon so. Here's the first scenario and venue. It's the north porch of the El Tovar hotel on the South rim. This is normally a seating area, but just for you, it is currently flagged off and closed with no public access or disturbances. A simple dinner table is set up in the middle at sunset time, two chairs, white tablecloth your own private servicer are standing to the side at the ready. I'm waving my magic wand and then invite, have invited anyone dead from the past to sit at your table for a private dinner conversation. The person must have a connection to the Grand Canyon. Here's your questions: What do you order? Who are you inviting as your dinner guest? And what do you want to talk about? Dr. Myers: Wow well I love that scenario. I love the venue that's this is terrific. So my order would start with the French onion soup at El Tovar which I think is great. It's topped with shredded Swiss cheese and croutons. And then my entree would be a Navajo Taco. Yes. And my dinner guest would be … Teddy Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt. I would order the same for him. You know, my treat. Unless you're paying for it I guess. Anyway, with your wand you'll pay for it. After dinner I would order mint juleps for each of us. I knew he liked those or I know. And then I would ask him the conversation I would ask him about his that first impression he had of the Grand Canyon where he famously said leave it leave it as it is. Man can only mar it. That was incredibly forward thinking. You know in my mind especially in the era where wild places were to be conquered. Untamed and natural resources exploited for profit and development. Then I would take my glass that mint julep, and I would toast him in a moment. and I would thank him for inspiring that the groundwork for the ultimate protection of the Canyon and leading leading a call for it to become a National Park. Because he did that 1903 almost 20 years before it became a part you. Know that better in me. And then I'd sit back and listen to TR tell stories. Like mountain lion hunting on the North Rim with Uncle Jimmy Owens. Or running cattle on the Badlands. Or rushing the San Juan Hill with Rough Riders. Or hunting on the Nile. And being President you know so many things I would just sit back and listen. That would be great. Ranger Doug: I have a a new setting for you … a second setting. It's down the bottom of the Grand Canyon. It's a beautiful October day, eight PM. Dinner’s done. Sun is already set. There is a quarter moon up. Its casting a moonlight onto a nearby Cliff although none directly on your camp beach area where you're sitting. There are two camp chairs set up on a beautiful Grand Canyon sandy beach. There's no wind. A small campfires going on the fire pan. You are alone with your guest. What post-meal drink do you have in your hand? And who would you like to bring back from the dead for your conversation? Who is that person and what would you talk about? Dr. Myers: Wow I love that setting even more than the El Tovar, especially the no wind and all that kind of happening it's like that sounds like just pure fantasy. Super. So in my hand would be a shot glass and it would be filled with Hayner whiskey and whiskey from, you know, the 19th century. And next to me would be John Wesley Powell. I honestly think it would be almost sacrilegious to see anyone else especially for an historian. And as for that conversation, you know like that with TR with Roosevelt I would just listen for the most part. But I would start with a question that comes from being a doctor. First I would ask him about the loss of his arm and the battle of Shiloh. You know how was it injured? His impression of the injury at the time and then ultimately having to have it amputated. You know did he get any chloroform or any kind of sedative? Did he literally have to bite the bullet and take the pain when they saw it off the jagged end and tried to make a stump? I I would really like to hear about that. Because that, you know, I I know it's horrific for so many. I once saw a bullet that somebody bit so hard in this is from the Civil Wars out of battlefield and we went to, and his tooth came out in the bullet and it was on display. Ranger Doug: Oh, jeez. Dr. Myers: Then I would ask Powell about his exploratory descent of the Colorado in 1869. And part of the reason I want to talk to Powell is specifically, I would ask him about his relationship with his men. His impression of them and then vice versa. And I would ask Powell to then, walk me through the incident at Separation Canyon where three of his men Oramel and Seneca Howland as well as William Dunn, left the trip and were never seen again. You know that that happened at a place that's now called Separation Canyon. So what really made them go you know as far as Powell saw it? Were they really scared of the river, or did personal tensions between him and them, play a role? You know that's been a very controversial topic ever since and I'd love to hear it from the man you know directly you know what actually happened you know Mister Powell? Yeah. Ranger Doug: OK. OK well when you get that answer be sure to share it with the rest of the world. Dr. Myers: Absolutely. Ranger Doug: OK I'm kind of on a roll here with my magic wand so I have a final scenario for you. You get to pick your special place at the Grand Canyon for your celebration of life while you're still alive. I can wave my wand I can bring back friends, families from anywhere including from the spirit world and beyond for your grand gathering. I'll magically transport everybody to your select location. All will rise raise their glasses and toast your life. Tell tall tales. Laugh. Cry. Maybe sing a song or two. All will enjoy coming together. Please describe the Grand Canyon location you choose for your grand gathering. Dr. Myers: Well I have to say you're great Doug you're alright I just love these questions. These are so awesome, so creative. Thank you. So for me there you know so many wonderful and spectacular spots but I think my grand gathering would be at Phantom. And that's really where it all began for me. From feeling my heart and soul captured by the place you know during my first hike there when I was 19. My first overnight stay there when I was 19. And then the unforgettable and magical moment of taking my wife, my fiancée Becky down there for the first time. And then taking my kids down there for the first time when they were infants and toddlers. And all the and then hopefully my grandkids we're going to do that hopefully this year but and then all these magical moments I've had down there especially in New Year's to celebrate New Years has been a tradition for me. So going almost 50 years and I've done it with, you know, my family and close friends. And so Phantom will always have a special place in my heart more than anywhere else. So that's where I want my my grand gathering to be. Ranger Doug: OK and what are the 3 things that you're most proud of in your life that you want your family friends to mention and acknowledge at your grand gathering at Phantom Ranch? Dr. Myers: So that fits into what I've frequently called and done this for a long time headstone goals. That's something I've talked to my kids about and I think it's important to to intentionally live your life to fulfill those goals. So what is a headstone goal? By that I mean it's like what's your life’s legacy. If you were to capture your life legacy on a headstone, what would what would be said? What would what would you want written on there? How would you want to be remembered and how it would and would it reflect reflect the reality of how you lived? So for me you know there would be several tiers on that headstone. The top tier would say he was a good husband it would say Tom Myers, he was a good husband and father. Equal billing. You know that's where most proud of I think I've been a good husband and a good father. And that means more to me than anything. The second tier would say he was a good son. He was a good brother. And he was a good friend. Those are really important to me as well. Third tier was, he was a good doctor. He was kind. He was caring. And he really wanted the best for every patient he saw. And I believe that's true. And lastly, he was a decent historian and a reasonably good writer. So that's that. Ranger Doug; Not not a bad legacy to leave behind! Dr. Myers: Thanks Ranger Doug: it's been great chatting with you and I do have a present for you here. Since you are a book author. I can't match that but we do have a few parody songs here at …the North Rim of Grand Canyon so here's a collection of our corniest, funest parody songs for you. Dr. Myers; Wow well this is great I look forward to like reading them and trying to sing them. And I have a gift for you you. It's a copy of Over the Edge. And I'm really proud to give it to you. And you know cherish this Grand Canyon parody songbook, Doug. Thank you so much. Ranger Doug: OK hey well great. Great agreeing to sit down and chat with us and we'll see you later. Dr. Myers: It’s been awesome. Thanks. Ranger Doug: This podcast, Let’s Meet Grand Canyon’s Doc, is brought to you from the interpretive team at the North Rim, Grand Canyon National Park. I’d like to gratefully acknowledge the Native peoples on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their park home here today. Thanks for ranger Leah for podcast editing.   Wow. What an honor it was for me to sit down and share a conversation with Dr. Myers. He is such a fascinating person. I hope you found our Grand Canyon doc, Dr. Tom Myers, as an impressive a human being, as I did. Thank you, Dr. Myers, for taking time to share your experiences, thoughts and stories with us. As I wrap up this podcast, I am thinking to myself: what is the take-away from the podcast? What would make a really powerful ending? Then, I remembered the letter of advice Dr. Myers wrote to his daughter. I really like his father-to-daughter advice. I found it very wise. Even profound. Something maybe we all should consider. To ponder. If you want to re-listen to Dr. Myer’s advice, scroll back to around the 35-minute mark, and give it a second listen. Finally, I just finished read-reading Dr. Myers book: Over the Edge, Death in the Grand Canyon. There sure are a lot of ways to end up injured, incapacitated or otherwise in need of medical attention at the Grand Canyon. My hope is you have a safe visit to the park. I hope you never need to be seen at the South Rim’s medical clinic. I hope, even more so, you never become a statistic, and land in the Death in Grand Canyon book. Yes, there are some true Act of God causes to injuries, mishaps and death at Grand Canyon. Stuff can just happen. But there is a strong trend, identified in the Death book, as to many of those causes. This is the USA. It seems we are always looking for someone else to blame for our misfortunes. Maybe the Canyon Doc? Maybe a park ranger? If you are looking for someone to blame, I encourage you to listen to our ending song. Listen closely to the fun parody lyrics that ranger JD wrote for us. You will find the answer there. With apologies to Jimmy Buffett, I am ending this podcast with: Hiking Away Again at Grand Canyon. I am ranger Doug, thanks for listening. ♫Guitar and singing: Munching on trail mix, Getting my hike fix, All of those tourists crowding the rim. Checking my trail guide, This canyon is so wide, Making it hard to go rim to rim. Hiking away again in Grand Canyon, Searching for my elec-tro-lytes (salt, salt, salt), Some people claim, there’s a Ran-ger to blame, But I know, it’s my own darn fault. Don’t know the reason, I’m hiking this season, The lottery gave a permit I didn’t choose. But it’s a real doosie, A backcountry beauty, How I’ll do this route I haven’t a clue. Hiking away again in Grand Canyon, Searching for my elec-tro-lytes (salt, salt, salt), Some people claim, there’s a Ran-ger to blame, But I know, it’s my own darn fault. I blew out my hiking shoe, Stepped in some mule pooh, Blistered my heel, had to limp up the trail. All these crazy rim to rimmers, Soon will surrender, Realizing Grand Canyon, will always prevail Hiking away again in Grand Canyon, Searching for my elec-tro-lytes (salt, salt, salt), Some people claim, there’s a Ran-ger to blame, But I know, it’s my own darn fault.

Cobbler, sanitation worker, language interpreter, Sheriff of the Junior Rangers – which of these are real duties performed by Grand Canyon Law Enforcement Rangers? To find out, join in the conversation with three backcountry rangers at Phantom Ranch while they talk about the many hats they wear, and the work they’re most proud to do. --- TRANSCRIPT: --- Jesse: Hey, this is Jesse. We’re five years in to the Behind the Scenery podcast, now, and every now and then we unearth some audio files from the early days. This episode was recorded almost exactly five years ago in the summer of 2020, the first year of the podcast. It’s a conversation between Brendan, an interpretive ranger whose main job is to give talks and answer visitor questions, and two backcountry law enforcement rangers, Kate, and Jacob. You’ll hear Brendan speak first. The episode was recorded at the Phantom Ranger Station at the bottom of Grand Canyon, so you’ll hear some radio chatter in the background. Enjoy the episode. Brendan: All right, go. What different jobs do you have that people may not be aware of? Kate: Helicopter crew member. Jacob: Leave no trace trainer. Kate: Climbing Ranger. Jacob: Swift Water rescue technician. Kate: Victim Witness services coordinator. Jacob: Wildland firefighter. Kate: Shoe repairer, backpack repairer. Brendan: Cobbler? Kate: Cobbler, that’s it! [laughing] Jacob: Um, we didn’t cover this, but informal interpreter. Brendan: Yeah, I would say, yeah, I would say it's a huge part of your job. Jacob: Or actually along those lines I'm also a language interpreter. Brendan: Yeah, you are a language interpreter. For Mandarin? Jacob: For Mandarin, yeah. Kate: Sanitation worker. Brendan: Yes, didn't you? Weren't you nominated for an award for cleaning toilets? Kate: I got a fake award. Brendan: Oh yeah. Kate: Decorated with gilded toilet paper. Yeah. Jacob: Oh, that's pretty official. That's amazing. OK. Kate: Yeah, it’s in my file. [laughing] Kate: Yeah, my employee file. Kate: Oh. Emergency medical technician, yeah. Jacob: I would say also trail worker. Trail maintenance, if you will. Kate: Acting search and rescue coordinator. Jacob: What are we missing? Oh, high angle rescue technician. Brendan: I would say you're also cooks. I've seen both of you cook a lot of food for a lot of people. Kate: Lot of ramen, yeah. Brendan: A lot of ramen. Jacob: Yeah, this is true. Kate: Um, emotional caregiver. Brendan: I think that's probably the biggest thing. I would say, cheerleader for you too. Jacob: Yeah, for sure. Brendan: You can get out. You can do it! Kate: We would, I would say I'm a resource technician. I try to do like archaeological monitoring or report paleontology or yup. Brendan: I bet there's more, but I, oh you got one more? Jacob: I got one more. I'm trying to think how you would word this a, swearer in of Junior Rangers? Kate: Yeah Jacob: How would you say that? Brendan: Are you deputizing them? Jacob: Yeah. So maybe like, sheriff of the Junior Rangers. Brendan: Or a master of ceremonies? Well, I think I've seen both of you like you just were out doing like emergency medical technician stuff or like, had a law enforcement contact and you walk into the station without missing a beat. There's Junior Rangers and you're like, boom, swearing in. I'm like, how do they do that? It’s like two different parts of your brain. [laughing] Brendan: All right. So, what is an example of when something funny happened from wearing too many hats? Jacob: So yeah, so this actually refers back to my previous park, which was Death Valley. Hottest place on the planet. And yeah, it's really hot. So, one of the things that goes on there is that, you know, because the valley that would imply that it's walled in by mountains on either side so, in terms of fires that occur in that park, with it being Death Valley and not a lot of vegetation and burn, it's usually cars or vehicles that burn either coming into the valley because they're burning up their brakes or coming out of the valley because they're burning up their engines. So, all the Rangers there are in addition to law enforcement, EMS and such, there are also structure firefighters. And structure firefighting obviously involves a lot of training to keep up your skills. So, there's one day where all of us were gathered together and we were training with the fire engines. You know, flowing water from the hydrants and just practicing evolutions which is, you know, pulling the hose off and charging them with water and then spraying on a fake fire and all that. So, if you picture the entire on duty staff of Death Valley National Park, so that would be something on the order of like 10 or 12 Rangers, all in their firefighter turnouts, which you never get unless you're in training or on a real fire, and then suddenly out of the blue dispatch calls and says, hey, there's a car burning about 12 miles away, and we all just look at each other and we're like, hey, we’re ready to go. And there's a there's a in unison: “Yay!” And we all just. [laughing] Jacob: Just jumped in the fire engine and of course you know you couldn't all fit in the fire engine, but yeah, we all jumped in the appropriate number of vehicles and our response time to that fire was probably the fastest you'd ever get at Death Valley because everyone was already ready to go. And then of course immediately afterwards we all switched back into our regular Park ranger uniforms and go about our business. That was one fun instance where, you know you're a Park ranger. You actually dressed in the perform your, you’re a park ranger, but you're actually for an hour or two during this day, dressed as a firefighter, and that just so happened to be exactly what was needed at the right time. Kate: Lucky hat. You had the lucky hat on. Yeah. [laughing] Jacob: Yeah, we had the lucky hats on. Brendan: Are you? I do want to hear from you as well, Kate. But are you two like me, where you forget you're in uniform sometimes? And then I well, in my role, I go up to someone like start telling them about lizards and they’re like who is this weird person? Jacob: Oh, like when you’re not in uniform? Brendan: Yeah, because I forget I'm not, I'm not in uniform. I'm not identifiable. But you know. Kate: I'm acutely aware of the ten pounds of defensive equipment on my waist when I'm not wearing my duty gear, I'm like not working. Jacob: Yeah, I would. I would second that. I think it's not just the weight, but you know, it's just. I think when I take the uniform off. It's I can relax a bit and that just extends into whatever I'm doing when I’m not at work. Kate: Yeah. Well, I think one thing too that I realized is that I see all of the things that I as a professional should be concerned about. But you know, we see them all the time. And so, on my days off, when I'm not in the place that I work or. Not it's. I still see all of the safety issues that need addressed and you have to really stop and think about like, what is the right thing to do? Like, will I be safe if I interject myself into something? Do I need to call somebody else who's ready to respond to this safety thing here? And as a Park ranger, we have to know a lot about the things that we need to do to take good care of this place and ourselves in it. And I think it's really important to not be that you know citizen out at the climbing area who is just in everybody's business about everything that they're doing wrong in in the minutiae. Like I, you know, it's you just have to let some things go and really weigh what it's worth. Like there's been a fire ban, and I found multiple fires out on the National Forest and you know it's. You have to think you have to really weigh the risk. Like what? What's the benefit of taking action when you're not working? Jacob: And that actually goes towards a tendency, at least among visitor and resource protection rangers, that can be kind of dangerous in terms of our mental and emotional health in that, at the end of the day, we need to recognize that this is still, it's just a job. It's not our identity. And it's not, it doesn't define us. So, I've seen I was a victim of this when I was a lot younger too. Rangers, for whom this job becomes their identity and defines them, and it takes over their life, both while they're working technically on the clock, but also whether or not working. So, it's good to consciously create that separation between work and not work in that instance because we, I think for most Park rangers a lot of us do a lot of the same things while we're not working. Brendan: Like, you still you still hike, you still climb and you're still out here? Yeah. Jacob: We still spend time out in the outdoors. Yeah, even if it's not in our own park. But we still, by virtue of being Park rangers, recognize what's allowed and what's not allowed in terms of regulations, wherever we may be. And so yeah, it's like Kate said, you have to be cognizant of that and balance the balance, the benefits versus the disadvantages of speaking up or acting, and I think as time has passed, I recognize more and more the value of non-acting while I'm not in uniform in order to preserve or sustain my mental emotional health. Kate: Absolutely: Jacob: And that's something that I’ll just say, like, that's something one of my, my actually, my very first supervisor in this job kept stressing and I never figured it out till, well, after she retired, so I figured out eventually. But yeah, it's something that younger rangers I think definitely need to watch out for or at least be coached by more experienced Rangers to be cognizant of. Kate: Yeah, there's a lot of learning from letting people fail. Jacob: That this is true too, yeah. Kate: And like if it, especially if it's safe like not interjecting and micromanaging and letting people make decisions that you know they're going to learn, they're going to learn from is highly valuable. Brendan: Is that hard to let people learn that lesson? Kate: I worked for outward bound for six years, and so I would let my students in the woods make mistakes for days before we corrected them. If we knew it was safe and I like things for things to be efficient and I like for things to be within my control. And that was a good lesson to learn in my early 20s that like people are going to do what they're going to do and that that really shapes how I interact with folks and what sort of approach I take. And that like really like their decision and their freedom is going to be really impactful for them. And so, there's not a whole lot of non-negotiables for me down here like there's a lot of gray area and it very much depends on the person that I'm interacting with. What do you think, Jacob? Jacob: Well, I could come at this from the perspective of a field training officer. So, one of my duties, when I'm not in the Canyon is as a field training Ranger for the new park rangers, who have just completed their training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. They get sent out to a National Park that has that is pretty busy in terms of law enforcement cases for 11 weeks to be evaluated in the field dealing with real life situations with the field training Ranger looking over their shoulder and giving feedback and suggestions and so on. So, in my time as a field trainer, I've seen a lot of rangers and how they problem solve. And it's true, I don't know where this comes from, but I know it's been shown with psychology that there's psychological studies that show that failing at a task is one of the best ways to learn how to do that task properly, rather than always succeeding. And so again, this is in the context of law enforcement. So, I have to balance letting this new ranger fail at what they're doing versus potentially having a safety issue with their failure. So, it's like Kate said, as long as I recognize that as long as I can see that this failure won't put this ranger or myself or anyone else in danger, I let them fail. And then that gives me something to work with. Afterwards we sit down after the interaction is done with and we just walk through it again and talk about what went well and what didn't go well, how we can improve things. And that always seems to work better than constantly interjecting and preventing that trainee that that new ranger from making mistakes. Brendan: It sounds like that, that mentality and role as like a teacher isn't just for other rangers, it's also for other visitors. Jacob: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Kate: Yeah, all of those, all of those techniques apply to how we interact with visitors. Again, the diversity that we see on the trail in Grand Canyon like, I never approached a visitor assuming their worldview, and so, I feel like we try to present facts and tools so that people can take those and put them together with their worldview to shape their experience. I don't know what their expectations are of their interaction with this place, with the rest of their group. I think that's one of the coolest things about being in Grand Canyon, but I don't make any assumptions about what people are coming for. Try to help them do it in a way that's safe and that takes care of the place and that's like really the bottom line. It looks different for everybody. Brendan: Why did you become a Ranger? Jacob: Hm. So this goes back to, you have to go many, many years into the distant past, but way back when, I didn't actually have a plan as to what I wanted to do with my life. When I entered into college, I just studied the best subject that I had in high school, which was physics. Later on, I tacked on astronomy too, because I always had an interest in astronomy and space exploration in general. But that, oddly enough, is what led me to the Parks Service. I studied at the University of Texas at Austin and UT Austin has an observatory out in West, TX, near the town of Fort Davis called McDonald Observatory. And once a year, the Astronomy club would take a trip out there for various purposes. The one time that I went, we utilized some of the smaller telescopes at the Observatory to take astrophotography, take pictures of astronomical objects in space, to then utilize for promotional material for the Astronomy Department at University of Texas. So that's all during the nighttime. Well, because of course, we're like 20 something years old or 20. So we got boundless energy. So even though we spent we're up all night taking photos through telescopes and in the daytime, we still want to get out and play out in West TX. So, one of those day trips we took was down to Big Bend National Park. And that was my first National Park that I visited as an adult. So, the first National Park that I visited where I truly had the sense of what was occurring and what I was seeing around me and the uniqueness and the, how special it was. So that inspired me for the next several years after I dropped out of school to save up all year long and take an annual trip to Big Bend. And then one of those years, I finally thought to myself, why am I spending all year long working at these dead-end jobs, trying to save up all this money to make one trip for about a week once a year to Big Bend. Why don’t I just work for the national parks? So, you can almost and from there and from that point on I looked at what it took to become a park ranger. I went back to school, got a natural resource management degree, went to the seasonal Law Enforcement Academy, got a Wilderness First Responder certification and from there on the ball just kept rolling. So, you could almost say that Big Bend saved the path of my life in the sense that, had I not discovered Big Bend National Park as an individual, I would have kept probably on the same pathway, which would have been just simply working at the same bike shop and outdoor gear store in Austin that I'd been working at for several years. Whereas this park, so it's almost like a meta kind of thing, because this part saved the trajectory of my life at the same time, I'm giving back to the Park Service for doing that. So, I don't know that makes any sense or not. Brendan: Yeah, like a circle of life kind of thing. Jacob: Circle. Yeah. Yeah, queue “Circle of Life”, Simba and all that. But yeah, totally it, so it's so my mentality now in terms of being a park ranger is that it's almost as if I do this job out of gratitude for these amazing places for giving me the inspiration to change the direction of my life. That's why I became a Park ranger. [laughing] Kate: And what are all the parks that you have worked at? Jacob: You want me to go through the whole list? Kate: Yeah, list it. Jacob: Okay, here we go. So, this is in chronological order, so White Sands at the time it was White Sands National Monument now it's White Sands National Park. After that was Arches National Park, Canyonlands National Park, then back to Arches National Park, and then Death Valley National Park. And while I was there, I did do detail at Sequoia National Park and then here at Grand Canyon National Park. And while here I also did a detail at Big Bend National Park, the original inspiration. And in two weeks I'll be going to Mount Rainier National Park. Kate: Woohohoo! Jacob: Is that is that nine? Brendan: That’s nine. Jacob: Holy cow. Kate: In how many years? Jacob: In 15 years. Yeah, 15 1/2 years I guess you could say. We're a little bit has my actual 15-year anniversary. So, nine parks, yeah, I never actually stopped to count. Brendan: You’ve got to do one more and then it'll be 10. Kate, why did you become a park ranger? Kate: The short answer is to help people. The long answer is I always worked in parks, but as a guide or a nonprofit employee and I moved up to Grand Canyon and I was a secretary for the Grand Canyon Conservancy. And I got a couple of job offers out of the Grand Canyon and I wanted to stay here, and I actually met my current supervisor at a lady's book club which is ironic because I don't like reading. But I didn't have any friends, I was here working as a secretary and it was winter and there's not a lot going on and so when I turned down these other jobs, I pulled aside my current supervisor and was like. What, you’re park ranger? What do you what do you do? And she, in her wisdom said, I'll do you one better and show you and she let me volunteer as a wilderness ranger here. But I took three years of watching all of the Protection Rangers around me work before I decided that I wanted to do law enforcement. And I think the Backcountry Rangers at Grand Canyon are such a phenomenal, storied, creative, balanced work group that I decided that law enforcement was the right choice for me. I've had lots of good mentors in this work group. It's not at all what I would have expected out of a law enforcement work group and I never in my 33 years of living would have said that I wanted to be a police officer, but after watching people do it and really make positive change, I decided it was a good fit and I'm happy so far. Brendan: Book club. Kate: Book club, Lady’s Book Club. Still don't read. I should, I should. [laughter] Brendan: But now you’re a Park ranger so. Kate: Brendan reads and then we hike he tells me everything I need to know about the world. This is another collaboration. Brendan: But not verbatim. Mostly weird paraphrasing of books. Jacob: So, Kate, have you, a question for me, have you worked at other parks or is Grand Canyon your only park that you’ve worked at? Kate: I did a graduate fellowship in Joshua Tree. And then I was an intern at the Southeast Arizona Park, so Coronado National Memorial, Chiricahua, Fort Bowie. But I don't have a science degree, so I never qualified to work in those positions and, but I worked guiding in North Cascades and Yosemite. Yeah, I think I think that's the extent of it. So, it's always been peripheral. What does that count as maybe three whole parts out of like. Brendan: I think if we count the monuments that was seven. Jacob: I was going to say with the southeast, that's three right there in one, you know, one shot. Kate: There you go. Yeah. So, I don't know. I'm really happy here. I think about you know how Jacob has worked in nine parks over 15 years and we also have rangers that have worked their entire careers here and. Yeah, I'd be curious to hear what you think about moving versus staying put and what benefits that has. Jacob: Right now? Kate: Yeah. [laughing] Kate: Yeah, I mean, like, how was your experience as a park ranger different by being able to migrate like that? Jacob: You know, it's interesting in that being able to move as often as I have, which if you only count the parks where I didn't do details, but where I was assigned to as a primary park and that's where I work. You know it's about on the average every five years or so I moved to a new park. Um. And what it allows is five years is in some, in a sense, it's really short period of time, but it's also a long period of time. You know, it's long enough in that at any given park that I've worked at for that period of time, it gives you a sense of becoming a part of the community of employees and other residents within a park. It allows you to become that local, that understands the geography and geology and the layout of the place, even a place as big as Death Valley, you know, larger than the state of Connecticut. You still just by virtue of both working and living in that location, gives you a true sense of, a deeper understanding of the place, more so than even say for instance, a visitor who visits a National Park many times over many years. But again, the five years is also pretty darn short, because as you mentioned, as you as you mentioned earlier, there are quite a few Parks Service employees who work their entire career in one park. And I can say pretty definitively that I'll never have that depth of knowledge that some of these individuals have. You know, just here at Grand Canyon, we can point to Sjors, our volunteer, as well as Della, who's been here her whole career, I think, other than her field training and of course, Bil Vandergraff, who retired a few years ago, he worked his entire career here. I can. Kate: Betsy. Jacob: Oh Betsy, yes. Yeah, exactly Betsy’s worked her entire career here. And even at Death Valley, I can point towards a gentleman by the name of Dave Brenner, who worked his entire career as a park ranger at Death Valley National Park. And any one of these individuals, you can go to them. And you as an individual who's worked at the park for several years, has a certain foundational base of knowledge as to how the park runs, where everything is and all that. But these individuals who worked their entire career at these just one park, it's just that much deeper and that much more of an intuitive understanding of how things all work. So yeah, the moving between parks every five years or so, it's both too short and too long, or too short and not long enough, or not long, not short enough. However you want to phrase it, right. It's the time period can be looked at as both not long enough or way too long. If that makes any sense. Brendan: Yeah. Jacob: Yeah, so we’ll see. A couple of weeks and I’m out of here. Kate: We're gonna miss you. Brendan: It's going to be 100 degrees colder. Jacob: This is probably quite literally true. Jacob: OK, so Kate I actually had a question for you. So, you described the parks that you have worked at. Are there any parks that you would like to work at? Any dream park? Is there a dream park or dream parks that? Brendan: So many parks. Kate: Well, I think it's currently 114 degrees outside and. Brendan: In the shade. Kate: In the shade. And I am from the desert, and I love the desert. But I have a masters in wilderness management and the desert wilderness is so different from the mountain wilderness and I would really love to work in another like vast Western American wilderness complex just to see something different. I mean, we've got two dams on the Colorado River through here and millions of acres, but I'd be really curious. Like what? What does it look like at North Cascades? What does it look like at Death Valley? What does it look like in Yosemite? And then on a personal note, I love rock climbing and I rock climb in Grand Canyon, and I haven't died yet, but the rock quality is utterly miserable. So, on a personal front, I would love to live in a place with like good quality rock climbing. Brendan: That nice granite. Jacob: Yosemite or. Brendan: Where you don't literally rip rocks out of the wall. Kate: Exactly, exactly. However, I never wait in line to climb here. So that is the benefit so. Jacob: This is, yeah, I guess it's a tradeoff. Brendan: Yeah Kate: Yeah, I do. I do want to continue to work in a place, though, that has a really vast amount of resources. The big parks have a lot of politics and a lot of division between work groups and having worked in a smaller park, I saw how cohesive that experience is like when you're working side by side with the science division and the interpretation division and the planning division and so I hope that wherever I go I will be encouraged to do some multidisciplinary work. I think we get that here, but it's because we're some of the only ones actually walking around in it 365 days a year. Brendan: Right, yeah. I feel like working in the Canyon District we’re a small park within a really big park. We are kind of our own little world or ecosystem down here. Kate: Yeah, we have a good relationship with the concession operation at Phantom Ranch, the wastewater treatment plant operator, interpretation, volunteers, law enforcement, emergency services. You're right, we are. Brendan: Mule Wranglers. Kate: Yeah, wranglers. Jacob: Wildlife people as well, yeah. Kate: And plant people. Jacob: Don’t forget the plant people. Kate: Got to give a shout out there. Yeah, I've been trying to include the fisheries people because we have so much water and so many fish here. So, you know, they're, I feel like fish are at the least glamorous sometimes and I, making every effort to inform the public about our aquatic ecosystems. You gotta keep working on it, this place is alive. Brendan: It doesn't feel like that when it's 114, but it is. Kate: Even the Ravens and squirrels are not out today. Brendan: Yeah, so you listed all of the different titles you have? What is the title you're most proud of? Jacob: Hmm. Kate: I think the title that I'm most proud of is like victim or witness advocate. I think especially as a woman in law enforcement, I've started to see the world through new eyes and it's my job to know what resources are available to victims. And I never had the empowerment of knowing what, like legal resources are due to people and who qualified as victims, and I think I've made probably the most impact in people's lives by knowing what's appropriate for them and helping connect them with those resources. We have a county victim witness advocate here, who's wonderful who picks up where I make the connection, but I really like being able to follow up and help people get either the financial restitution, or the counseling, or the legal services that they need. And too, recognizing that like sometimes some of those services are like counseling, or like seeing a psychologist like trying to take the issue that I have at hand to address and provide continuing care through that, like advocating for victims or witnesses. Yeah. Brendan: Thank you. Jacob: So, I guess the funny thing in terms of what I consider the hat that I'm most proud to be wearing is that it's also the duty that's assigned to me that I feel the least confident in, and might even argue that it's one of my least favorite duties. But it really just boils down to emergency medicine and the reason why is that I can point to at least three separate times in my career where my knowledge in emergency medical services, emergency medicine has directly saved a human life. And I can't say that about the law enforcement aspect of my job or even the firefighting aspect. I mean, that's just saving property really more than anything. I never actually rescued anyone from a fire. Same with even search and rescue, and there it's arguable as to whether individuals we find were going to die without our intervention whether it was imminent or whatever. So, in terms of all those hats that Kate and I talked about earlier, I can only point to EMS and say that aspect of my job actually saved people's lives. So, even though it's something that I still struggle with, and this is 15 years on as an EMT, and I still struggle with this sometimes. And I sometimes am really reluctant to undertake it, maybe because I'm still not certain about all my skills and my abilities. Despite all that, it's something that I'm most proud of because of the fact that it definitely has had a very measurable, concrete positive impact. On other human lives. Jesse: Thanks to Brendan, Kate, and Jacob for sharing their stories and perspectives. Since this recording, each ranger has moved on to a different park. Brendan is at North Cascades, Kate is at Glacier, and Jacob is at Crater Lake. The Behind the Scenery Podcast is brought to you by the Interpretation Team at Grand Canyon National Park. We gratefully acknowledge the Native people on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their homes here today.

If you’ve gotten a backpacking permit on the North Rim in the last decade, chances are you’ve talked to Steve Bridgehouse. Steve has worked at Grand Canyon in many capacities for the last 25 years. In this episode, Steve reflects on his Grand Canyon mentors, how he connects to landscape, and how he went from sitting in traffic in Washington DC to watching his roommate fall through the floor of their park housing at Big Bend. --- TRANSCRIPT: --- Jesse: Hey, this is Jesse. Today on the podcast, we're featuring an interview with North Rim backcountry ranger Steve Bridgehouse. Steve's had a long Park Service career, including 22 years here at Grand Canyon. We talk about his journey to the Park Service, his experience in the backcountry at Grand Canyon, and much more. Enjoy the episode. Jesse: Maybe we'll just start with an introduction. Can you tell, for folks listening, what your name is, what your role is here at the North Rim and how long you've been in this position? Steve: Yeah, I'm Steve Bridgehouse. I'm a long time backcountry ranger at the Grand Canyon. I think I've been doing the backcountry ranger thing at Grand Canyon maybe 22 years. And uh, this is one of the 12 different parks that I've worked in. So, but Grand Canyon has felt like home for a very long time. Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. 22 years is a long time to be in, be in one place. Well, I want to kind of dig into sort of how you got here. But first let's let's just start with, like early, like, do you do you remember the first time you had a significant or memorable outdoor experience? Steve: Well, I grew up in the southwest. I'm from El Paso, and, my dad retired out of the Army in El Paso. And my mom is German. And so, you know, she left, a very cloudy place and moved to the southwest. And so the first thing we did was set about seeing all the national parks and visiting all these great public lands. And I don't know if it was my first visit to the Grand Canyon, but when I was a young, early teen, I remember doing what a lot of early teens do. I remember walking down to have a Havasupai Gardens and, and, with my family, my mom and dad and, you know, my parents wanted to turn around, of course. And so I was, I was, I remember handing my mom the water bottle and saying, I'm going to go a little further and I'll catch up with you, you know. And so that's probably not an uncommon experience, but it it kind of speaks to the, to the nature of Grand Canyon if it's gravity or whatnot, but it just pulls people in and we just all want to see more and experience more and go for a longer hike. Whether that's a good idea or not. Jesse: Yeah. That's funny. My my first like, real hike at Grand Canyon was also to Havasupai Gardens., yeah, when I was a little kid with my with my dad. We also, that is that story we hear a lot with, like, kids wanting to or people generally wanting to hike farther than the rest of their group. And it doesn't always end up great, but it seems like it went well for you so. Steve: It did, you know, and I think, that was an early seed being planted and I, I think I just got the impression then that, well, you know, I was just behaving like anybody does. And people do this all the time, and people come back to the campground and say, I'm sorry, I was supposed to check out four hours ago, but I got pulled in, and, you know, it happens. Jesse: Yeah. The Grand Canyon does that to you, it pulls you in, sometimes for 22 years. Steve: Yeah. Jesse: Um. So I'm curious, like from from those kind of earlier formative experiences, how did you make your way to the Park Service? Steve: Well, when I was, when I was visiting all these parks, I knew at a very young age I was going to be a park ranger. And I didn't exactly know, looking back now, I didn't exactly know what that was, but I, I knew when I was in high school that I was going to be a ranger. I knew in college I was going to be a ranger. So I thought, you know, all these rangers, the rangers I see, you know, they're they're educators. They're people who have a science background or a history history background. And so I thought, and they all seem to be good communicators. And so I studied communications and journalism and I studied science and geology. And I just thought this is the best way I can prepare myself for this. Jesse: Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like those trips to national parks gave you the idea that you could be a ranger. Like, I feel like a lot of people I talk to, you don't know that it's a career option or, you know, even people that that I've hired into positions are like, oh, I never really knew that this could really be a career option. Steve: Yeah. And I think even even parks, visiting parks sometimes is out of reach for people. And, you know, one great thing about national parks and public lands is that everybody's welcome, right. And so I felt like I had a chance. And people told me, prepare yourself for the challenges ahead, and it's going to take a very long time to get it permanently. And you'll probably give up before then. But as soon as I got out of college, I was applying to jobs and a lot of jobs. I was sending out applications to everybody, and I finally got picked up and, and, worked a handful of parks. And as you get that experience and you can communicate and show, yeah, I can do these things and be trusted, it grew into a career. And it's been, I can't imagine having done anything else. You know, if I had to walk away today, I would have to reinvent myself, and that sounds like a lot. Jesse: Yeah, yeah. You're in too deep at this point. Yeah. Well, so speaking of kind of those first Park Service jobs, where where was your first one? How did that, how was that experience for you? Steve: It was great. You know, I started volunteering when I was in college at the University of Texas, El Paso, and we have Chamizal National Memorial there. And I think that what I value about that time is that what was on display there and what was happening there was, you know, very real, you know, showing of, of culture. Like, the culture that was happening in El Paso contemporary when I was there is what was being celebrated there, you know. And so, you know, I was I was doing stuff like being a doorman in the theater for Ballet Folklorico or, you know, or, you know, all these things that were really important to the El Paso community were taking place. And it kind of laid a framework for seeing culture as a resource. And, and, the culture today has its history and that's one of these things that it was that that was, being shown there. And that's really meaningful, you know, to be able to think of the living culture today, having come from something where so many people might see parks today as the preservers of culture and history. And there it was, the very living history was on display. And then you could learn more about the history if you want it to. So it's a very contemporary, way of seeing culture. And, I think it was a great way to start. Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Especially in your own community. I think it's pretty rare that you're able to work for the Park Service or volunteer for the Park Service in your own community. Often you have to travel, like pretty far to do that. Steve: Yeah. And also, you know, your career, you can't just, snap your fingers and say, well, I'm going to become a ranger at Yellowstone. You know, I ended up going into Washington, DC and and working at the old Post Office Tower. And, you know, that's not some place I would have found myself working. But the Park Service has taken me to a lot of places I probably never would have lived and being part of communities I never would have been part of. So the Park Service for me has certainly been a a door that's opened and show me, it's really created. My entire adult life. Jesse: Wow, um I'm curious like what, what sorts of formative experiences you've had in the Park Service? Steve: Well, you know, every one of these resources is so different. You know, starting off at a memorial and going into a historic site, you know, suddenly I'm finding myself covering Ford's Theater and the Petersen Home where Lincoln was shot and where Lincoln died. You know, that's some place I probably would have visited once in my lifetime. And then suddenly I find myself working there. When I left Washington, DC, I really wanted to be back out west, and, I ended up in Big Bend, you know, being a fee collector and Big Bend and, what an incredible wilderness that is. And it was a much quieter part then, and, just getting into a place like that, I remember, camping out there and thinking, you know, since it's right on the Mexican border, there's not a lot of commercial flyovers and air flights over it. And I started to see the the sky as a resource. You know, I don't think I'd ever really considered the sky a resource. And then I was seeing the darkest night skies I've ever seen, you know, but there were a lot of things that I love about being in Big Bend and, and, you know, just having a six month window there and hoping. Well, one day I hope I get to come back and work here. And then it's in the past and I haven't worked back there since, but every one of these resources has been great. Jesse: Well, I'm curious, you know, you went you said you went from DC to Big Bend. Steve: Yeah. Jesse: What was that transition like? Steve: It was massive. You know, going from sitting in traffic to going to the to the park resources. You know, being in DC had incredible opportunities. You know, I would get invited to things, you know, to go go to the interior building, for example. And, and I remember one time someone said, hey, someone's written a book about the Park Service, so we need someone to go there. And I was sent there, and it turned out to be the, memorial service for Mollie Beattie, who was, the head of the Fish and Wildlife Service. And suddenly I was in this, you know, I walked into the room and I was shaking hands with, Secretary of Interior Bruce Babbitt, and Al Gore was there, and, the musical group The Byrds were playing music as a memorial to her. And I think that's those are the kinds of things that are only possible in a place like Washington, D.C.. I can laugh at it now. Jesse: Yeah, yeah, that definitely is not happening at Big Bend or at the North Rim. Steve: When I got to Big Bend, it was kind of like, what I expected from reading an Edward Abbey book. Like, suddenly I was living in a, you know, a 40 year old, 50 year old dilapidated trailer and, you know, I remember one time my housemate, Mike Reynolds, his family was visiting, and, and he was trying to show them, you know, some of the, some of the reasons he loves being a ranger. And he was standing on a section of the floor that was squeaking, and, and he fell through the floor. [laughing] Steve: And he was up to his waist, you know, at the floor level. And, all these javalinas that lived under our our, trailer. They all shot out in many directions. You know, I think there were probably 20 or 30 of them there. And so it was a huge contrast to move from a, an urban park, you know, pointing out features of the Washington, DC skyline to suddenly being in a really great wilderness and, you know, with extremes like, you know, I remember unpacking my, my household stuff and it was hot and I was wearing shorts and a t shirt and, you know, a couple of days later, a snow and ice storm came through and covered everything in, like, half an inch of ice. And so, a brave new world. Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Totally different. It's funny I, I worked for Mike Reynolds a few years ago, and he, yeah, when I told him I was coming here to the North and he's like, oh, Steve Bridgehouse, he's there. He was my roommate way back when. Steve: It's a really big community, you know, and as you work in more parks and you say, oh, I did a detail there, I was there temporarily or we have a mutual friend. I think there's still something like 20,000 of us. And so but a lot of us know each other, and I know our paths will cross again and again. So it's really satisfying about the career. Jesse: Yeah. He, he's also a pretty tall guy. So for him to go up to his waist is, he went pretty far in that trailer floor. Steve: Needless to say, his parents were not impressed. And, but he's gone on and been very successful, and now he's, you know, the superintendent of Death Valley. So, we're lucky to have him there. Jesse: Yeah. For sure. So, you said you've worked for 12 different parks. Steve: I have. Jesse: And, you know, we don't need to cover all of them here, but I'm curious, like, what were some of the more, I guess, experiences or places that got kind of deep down in for you? Steve: I think everyone's gotten through to me. When I left Big Bend, I went to Mesa Verde, and I had one season there as a seasonal interpretive and interpretive, guide. And, you know, taking groups of 50 through, you know, thousand year old architecture. And Mesa Verde is just a treasure. And you really feel like you're in an apartment complex, you know, it's just the, you know, seeing, you know, these these ancient builders might have left an infant baby print, you know, like a footprint of an infant and in a doorway, you know, or you might see loom hooks on the floor where someone was making, you know, weaving something, you know. But, what I got into there was, I was I had been exposed to these cultures before, but I started to understand what their calendars were. And at that time, we were trying to understand how people build their architecture relative to the sky. And, you know, there was just it kind of opened my eyes in a new sense. And, so it was really great. Even though I was very young, I was probably 22 or 23. Even if I had the chance to put on a backpack and help someone carry equipment, and just so that we could do this kind of science, it was really formative in shaping, you know, what my interests would become and how much, how much desire I would have to see more of this, you know, the history on display because, you know, national parks and other public lands, they protect these places. And I've spent most of my life running around and just trying to see some of this. And it's just fascinating. Jesse: Yeah. I think, one of the cool things, too, about Mesa Verde is that there's still 22 Tribes that are connected to that place. And, you know, I had friends who've worked there, and they have had really powerful experiences with those Tribal members who still come back and, you know, continue to have their there's ancestral and cultural ties to that place. Steve: Connections are still very strong. And, I'm happy to live in a time where, you know, all of us are listening a lot more to what those stories are. And listening to people today help us understand who was living there and why they were doing what they were doing. So I think especially for people who can listen, there's so much we can take in and learn, but, it is amazing to me too. And there are so many Tribes and so many people that I never would have expected have walked up to me and told me about the connections they have, the places. And I would, you know, it helps me to be less of a judge and to, you know, you know, like I said, just listen and try to see what I can learn from people. And it just goes on and on and on. So, one really cool place because, you know, when I was working at Mesa Verde, we would talk about, you know, where did these people go? And, and, I would say, oh, well, there are these, for example, like the Hopi mesa is out in Arizona, northern Arizona, that always seems so far away. I worked at Wupatki National Monument for a while, and it was it's right outside of Flagstaff, and I can't tell you there's nothing more satisfying than being able to say they haven't gone anywhere. They're right over there on those mesas that you can see on the horizon, you know, and, you know, Hopi people and Zuni people, they might come through and, visit these places, you know, and for them, it's visiting their ancestors and visiting their history. But none of this was something that happened and then left. You know, all of this is an ongoing, you know, existence here in that Colorado Plateau. And, we can learn so much about the people who live here today by looking at all the history. And it's all preserved all around us. Jesse: Yeah. Um, well kind of getting to to Grand Canyon. I'm curious how you, you know, what was your entry into working here at the Canyon? What was your first job here? And, how did you get from that and to, to the position that you're in now? Steve: Well, I got lucky. You know, I decided to make a sacrifice because I'd worked, you know, about four parks and and, I kind of wanted to get more of a view into where decisions were being made and what was going on in the upper level of, of Park Service and having, you know, had Washington, D.C. in my early career, I felt like I really wanted to get back to that. Mesa Verde was very premier, you know, and it was exciting to work there. And I decided to turn down, you know, a job in the Everglades campground, to go volunteer at Albright Training Center, which is one of the service-wide training centers. And I got in there and I worked in the, I worked I worked on the fundamentals planning, you know, which was writing service-wide, you know, training for the park rangers. And I worked in, the audio audiovisual, specialist for the Park Service, Jim Boyd's office. And right across the hall from where we were was a garage full of backpacks and camping gear and tents and stoves and everything. This was all left over from the Ranger Skills area, where all, you know, rangers have to, you know, law enforcement protection rangers, EMS Rangers, they're the most, trained employees that we have. And they all used to go through an extensive training at Albright Training Center. And so all this equipment was hanging there, and I was at Grand Canyon, you know, and and just like we were saying, you know, you look over the edge and, and you think, I have to do whatever it takes to get in there and see more and then see more and more. And so, I, you know, one of my first weekends there, I did an overnight backpacking trip down to Phantom Ranch and, you know, I started like everybody does. You know, I came to Grand Canyon really without any backpacking experience. And then, I slowly started to build confidence and go a little further out and wonder what was around the next corner. And, spread that map out over the table at the end of the day. And, and, you know, the job was pretty stressful, and it always has been. I know, you know. And so a nice way to, to cope is to get a map out and start thinking, well, where can I go and what can I do? And how can I feed my soul? And how can I, you know, just, you know, even get more sleep and winter, you know, like, go down there and get getting a sleeping bag for 12 hours. But that was, you know, Grand Canyon was really one of the luckiest things that could happen to me because, suddenly I had this new outlet and it was, you know, we're not making a lot of money. So, I was able to, you know, get together some equipment and go backpacking every weekend. It was very affordable. I didn't need to start a vehicle engine. I could just go. And a lot of my friends were like that, too. You know, we were just, we were living at a time where why wouldn't you go in the Grand Canyon and all these other places around around the Grand Canyon, too. But I met so many great rangers down in the Canyon. And, you know, I was just thinking recently of, Cale Shaffer, who was probably, I think he was the first preventative search and rescue ranger here. And he was about my age. And, you know, we run into each other on the trail and, you know, it was, it was just we were all just enthusiasts and that's how we were spending our weekends. Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you said your first trip was down to Bright Angel Campground, and, it takes, you know, it takes some some research and some learning and some, some guidance to figure out where to go from there. Like the, the corridor trails the North Kaibab, the South Kaibab and the Bright Angel, those are the sort of obvious starting places. That's where the most information is, the most infrastructure. Most days you can get potable water down there. There's ranger stations, there's designated campgrounds, but it kind of gets more mysterious from there. So I'm curious how you branched out from the corridor trails to the threshold zones and then more primitive areas? Steve: Well, a lot of it, I think, comes down to who we work with and what great mentors they made. I remember there was an interpreter on the South Rim, named Lon Ayres, and, he used to give an evening program. And you got to understand, I was probably 23 or 24, and I was, you know, getting excited about this Grand Canyon place. And he had a he had a, a slideshow he'd give called “Summits and Side Canyons”. And this was just stuff he did on his own time, but he was all over the place. He was getting out onto all those remote places. And I remember seeing photos of him holding a, you know, a Clovis point that he found in the Grand Canyon. And all of that was just, fuel for what I wanted to do. And and then suddenly I had this, you know, a resource like him and other resources like him that could help me. You know, I could ask questions. But that was invaluable. And, there were also people who are walking up to the backcountry office when I started in 1999, who were just, you know, figures that are still so well known. You know, I remember, George Mancuso was a photographer, who formed his little company called Granite Visions. And so that taught me, you know, was somebody I know who just. Backpacks. The Grand Canyon can also create a business where he's, you know, selling, you know, postcards out of the back of his car. You know, there were so many great people. George Steck, who wrote a lot of the, you know, that wrote a couple loop hike books for the Grand Canyon. You know, he was someone who would just walk up and get permits, you know, and him and his brother, Alan Steck, who was a world class climber, they would walk up and get permits from me. So, I developed this relationship with the people who were there and, and a lot of people at Grand Canyon and other places, they really got back into backpacking in the 70s and 80s. And by the time I came along the Grand Canyon in 98, a lot of them were having families and they were slowing down. And the people I was running into, they were legends, you know? So they were they were so prominent already and they were so down to earth. They all seem to have been humbled by the experience of going into the Grand Canyon and just finding their way around. And so not only were they really epic individuals, but they were also really down to earth. And, you know, I could have dinner with them, you know, go hang out. And, so all all of these folks, I remember prominent geologists coming up, you know, people would map the Grand Canyon like George Billingsley would stop by, you know, I remember, Bradford, Bradford Washburn stopping by the backcountry office just to see the backcountry office and say, hi to the staff. And this is another person who's legend. And he was, you know, doing a lot of mapping and, and and flying over places and photographing them and creating some of the maps that we still use today. And so it was so great to see my heroes and my legends and, and all that walking around. And again, they were so down to earth that, it was just a great community to be part of. Jesse: Yeah. Well, to give listeners some context, in case they're not familiar with some of these names, like George Mancuso, there's a huge mural of him in Flagstaff, you know, on the side of the Peace Surplus Outdoor Supply building. George and Allen Steck, I think they did one of the very first and end through hikes of Grand Canyon from east to west. And, really opened the 150 mile Canyon route, too, which, is really an essential route for, accessing a lot of the area kind of down around Sinyella Fault, upstream of Havasupai Canyon and those areas. Some really important, like, yeah, really just really important work that they did to share knowledge. And I think there's the, a really good, tradition of people who did that, all that work in the backcountry, you know, finding these routes and things, sharing their information, too. And I think we're really lucky to benefit from that. So it must have been amazing to get to learn from and interact with those folks. Steve: It was and they were really curious about what I was doing. And some of them were in their 60s or 70s, and they were still doing stuff here. But they wanted to know, well, what are you doing? Because I think they felt like there's a continuum and the legacy continues. And so what are you up to? You know, and they always laughed because, you know, I was always out doing my, bigger trips and winter and they were mathematics professors and they were always having summers off and, you know, and George’s case, in George Steck's case, he was, you know, always hiking with a group of 11. We used to call them the Steck Army, you know, because it was just like this army of people that were were going and he'd have his niece and his niece’s boyfriend and, you know, his brother and some climber shaped like an orangutan who could get them through anything, you know. So I really love the fact that people would, you know, want to just spend time. And, another person I met was William Kemsley, who was the founder of Backpacker Magazine, and he was working on a book at the time, and, and, featured some of the what I was telling him, talking to him about. And that became a book eventually. But, you know, when you're talking to people who were backpacking in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, if you think even just about how gear has changed and how attitudes have changed, it's like a it's a huge step. You know? I think something in my own case that really resonated too, was as I started getting into spending more and more time and maybe it was like four months a year backpacking in the Grand Canyon. We lost some of these people because I was so young and they were older. So, you know, in the stack, in the case of, Cale Shaffer, you know, he was, Denali ranger who died in a plane crash going to work. George Mancuso and his hiking companion died in a flash flood in a Little Colorado River in 2001. So that definitely resonated. Harvey Butchart, you know, who was, like, the master Grand Canyon backpacker, another mathematics professor, you know, he died in 2002. George Steck died in 2004. Bradford Washburn died in 2007. And so I think it also, placed on me, you know, I wanted to continue exploring the Grand Canyon and just seeing what I could. And I realized that my time is limited, and I need to be deliberate about seeing this place if I'm going to. And so I knew it would take a lifetime. And, you know, I started doing two and three, two and three night trips for my weekends and then, you know, spending my furloughs when I was laid off and I had a couple of months off, I would start spending all that time down there. I really got into doing two week trips at some point and just doing, longer and longer explorations into the Grand Canyon and some of that. I've kind of backed off of. And maybe the last 10 or 15 years I've, I thought, how do I get out to that really remote place or that place that I know is waterless? And if I go in there with enough water, can I find more water and keep going? Or we'll have to turn back and and so I feel like it really has taken a lifetime to put some of this stuff together. And since I knew I was going to be doing this so long, you'll love this, you know, I, I even blocked off parts of the Grand Canyon that I wouldn't let myself visit, so I wanted to always have a chance to see something premier like, I knew I wanted to be in my 40s and 50s and 60s and seeing stuff I'd never seen before. So, you know, I took, you know, the whole bunch of terrain between North Bass and Phantom Creek over by North Kaibab and just said, you don't get to touch it, you don't get to see it, you know, and so that, you know, I could get in, you know, 20 years and then say, okay, now you can see it. And so I was really trying to think about this as like a lifetime process rather than trying to get it done. And I don't think I'll ever get it done. And I don't think the interest will ever be in completing anything. And that's something I learned from Lon Ayres, I think, is that when he sectioned, hiked the Grand Canyon with his hiking companion, he got all the way from Lake Powell all the way down to Lake Mead. And I asked him, I said, you know, what, are you going to turn around and walk back on the other side, or what do you do? You know, how do you follow that up? And he said, you know, I can close my eyes and I can visualize the entire Grand Canyon, and I feel like I'm done. And so maybe I will get to a place like Lonn did, you know? But have still some more work to do. You know. Jesse: Yeah, I don't I don't know. I think that's a pretty bold statement to me. Like, I feel like I'm done. I, I it's hard to imagine ever feeling like there's not more out there. At least to me, I don't know, but the place is so vast. You're right. It's like it's it's many lifetimes worth of immersion. Steve: And there's so many experiences that I've had that they're not even a big part of the Grand Canyon, you know, like, I, getting into some sections. And I remember one time, I spent a winter and spring just backpacking, you know, in the western Grand Canyon, and and, I didn't even carry a water filter. I really had to pare my stuff down because I was going on really long extended trips. I knew that I wouldn't need a tent because I had overhangs. And so really, what I had was, you know, a bag full of food and a sleeping bag and a pad. And then I had, a digital camera, tripod, a film camera and a gallon Ziploc bag full of rolls of film. And so I was really going as minimally as I could. And since it was cold and that I advised anybody to do this, but I was just drinking water right out of the pools like a dog, you know, like on my hands and knees, drinking water out of a pool. I was really tired. And then I flopped down and, kind of looking up at the sky. And I looked over and there was this, Jasper Rock, you know, it was maybe the size of a baseball. And I picked it up and it had, it fit perfectly in my hand, and it had this ridge that was kind of like something you can imagine somebody cutting something with. And I'm sure that nobody's ever picked up this rock or thought anything about it. But I thought, you know, was somebody cutting a mammoth with this, was somebody cutting a bison, you know, someone long ago held this rock and was grateful for this water right next to me, just like I was grateful, you know? And so a lot of the experiences that I seek now, you know, I don't know that it's about completing anything or anything of that nature. I think there's still a lot of places I would like to visit and just see fall colors, you know, to be down in that canyon during a different season, you know? So wildlife always changes things when you get the rare sighting of something cool. So, you know, I'm someone who tries to go through life and I'm just happy with what I find. And in a place like Grand Canyon, I've always been happy. There's always so much to enjoy. If I feel like I'm getting rusty on my geology, I pull those books out. If I'm getting rusty on my birds, I get my field guides out and learn it again. So it just seems like something that's going to be with me for a long time. And, yeah, I don't want to think about leaving it either. Jesse: Yeah, yeah, it really it really gets into your under your skin and into your bones, I think. I, you know, I left Grand Canyon in 2016 after working there here for two years and then just couldn't get it out of my mind. I just I had to come back, like two years later, I came back and I've been here for seven years since then, so. Steve: You'll be coming back over and over. And there are a lot of people like you know that, you know, they live in Chicago or they live in Berlin. And when they get their vacation time they fly into Vegas, rent a car and come straight here. And so I think that what could be more impressive than that, that a place can grab a hold of somebody like that. And, there are a lot of us. Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, um thinking back to something you mentioned earlier with, you know, a lot of the people that helped you learn about the Canyon. One of the things that they learned from the canyon with humility. I'm curious if you had a moment, you know, on a backcountry trip or just in general in the Canyon when, you you learned some humility from the Canyon? Steve: Well, there's, you know, studying geology. The having any background in any of the earth sciences will humble someone right away. And just getting in and seeing something like a fossil or, you know, we think so much about climate change today and how rapidly things seem to be changing. There really is no better place on earth, I think, to, to be to observe something like that over time than to be inside the Grand Canyon and think, you know, I'm in a rock layer that, existed or was, you know, deposited before there was oxygen in our environment or before there was life on Earth. I remember doing a filming project with somebody on the South Rim and, he was, a scientist who said, you know, there was so much oxygen on the earth at this time that the dragonflies and everything grew to be really large. And these dragonflies apparently had like three foot wingspans and so, you know, that helps one gain some proper perspective. And it's such a great place to continually think about these, you know, when you're when you're at the edge of the Colorado River and you look in and you think of a raindrop in the Colorado River, or is the entire Colorado River and a single raindrop, like you can really start to extrapolate and and think about near or far relationships. You know, it's, it's kind of mind boggling what is available to someone who just walks in or stands at the edge of a place like the Grand Canyon and considers and so much human history that's been here. It's really, it makes me feel very temporary. Jesse: Yeah. I'm not sure there are many better places, at least I had not that I've experienced for, helping you gain perspective than the Grand Canyon. Especially, as, you know, you're saying when you went to Big Bend, having those first views of the dark night sky, Grand Canyon, plus the dark night sky like, to me, there's fewer, more humbling experiences. Steve: When I was a Natural Bridges, you know, we, it was after the 9/11 attacks and visitation started to plummet and the superintendent tasked us with trying to find a way to bring visitors in. It's not that visitors are money to us, and that's all. But when visitation plummets, we don't have money for our programs. And so one of the things we decided to do was to make that the first international dark Sky park. And sometimes I look back on that and I think in 2007 or so, I think, well, good we cross that bridge and now that's done. But that movement has continued all over the world. And and I hope that even people in towns and cities someday will say, well, we value the night sky too. We should get to enjoy this. We should be able to understand our relationship with with the cosmos and all that universe that's out there. And as a photographer, I go out there and do night sky photography, and I can't even see with my eyes what my what my camera captures. You know, a minute later I'm looking at what that sky really looks like. And, you know, the tools that we have are so, you know, brilliant. They can show us so much. So you're right, you know, seeing something at Big Bend 20 years ago maybe helped me think, well, why don't we make more parks like this? And now I'm still puzzled by all that and still, you know, trying to understand my place and at all. And it is all very humbling. Jesse: Yeah, absolutely. You know, kind of going back to another thing that you said earlier, you know, about, well, I guess you were, your first years here at Grand Canyon you were seeing all of these kind of legends of of the Canyon pass away. I wonder if you felt any responsibility to carry on their legacy of sharing knowledge during that time? Steve: Yeah. I think it was a very different time. And, and a lot has changed, you know, so I remember when, when George Mancuso died in 2001, you know, it was probably around that same time that, some folks out there were considering building a blog. You know, none of us knew what a blog was, but the internet was kind of in its infancy, and people started to consider what it could do for them. So I remember when the, Grand Canyon and Hikers and Backpackers Association approached the park and said, we're thinking about doing this thing. Do you want anybody from the park to be present to talk about it? Any concerns you have? And so I remember going over to the community building and sitting down with them and I would have never imagined that I had some idea, but things really took off then. And and then people had a means of in a mass sort of sense, they were able to share information about water sources and information. And so really, I got to witness something like that. And, you know, by 2012, I think that the social media had fully settled in by then. And it changes everything about how people, you know, learn about the place and, and consider what they can do. So a lot of things have changed in my time. And, packrafting was not a thing. Canyoneering was not really very popular here at Grand Canyon. And so I think those kinds of things came along and, you know, you had a lot of enthusiasts out there and you had a very, a lot of very informed hikers. And so they were immediately sharing everything. And I'm kind of from an era when I intentionally, you know, turn my back on all kinds of information. I didn't want to know anything, or I wanted to know as little as I could because I wanted to go discover it for myself. And, I don't have any regrets about that. Someone like Harvey Butchart or George Steck, they wrote books that were very instrumental in my early times. But, you know, for the last 20 years, information about water sources, you know, had been shared and GPS coordinates for everything. I've always shunned that because what I take enjoyment from is going out and just seeing if I can do something and seeing if I can find something and what will I encounter along the way. And so, people have a lot of tools today. I really don't use them, but it's a whole different world, you know? And so, while someone like George Mancuso was, you know, dropping rope over a lot of the canyons here that had never been rappelled, I found all that interesting. And he was keeping journals and everything, but it's such a different time. And, with George Steck, I remember, having a conversation with George Steck and he, he gave us Robert Benson's journals at the backcountry office and said, well, you all might like reading this. And I told him, I said, you know, you should really consider, you know, how broadly you want this to go because something like this and the study collection would really, you know, benefit people who have these questions. And, he did he put it in the study collection. And, you know, now the through hike of the Grand Canyon is kind of like the, the standard or the measure a lot of hikers will judge, judge themselves and each other by. So it's just a lot of different time has passed. Jesse: I'm curious, you know, as the availability of information has changed, I'm curious how you have observed differences in your interactions with visitors here at the backcountry office. Steve: I think since there are so many tools, the old school backpacker doesn't really show up asking questions anymore because they got a username and password and now they have it all. And so, we've kind of turned into more of a visitor center. It's very rare that I get a question that I would like, you know, like someone really asking about something. Jesse: Yeah. Steve: And so I think with the tools out there, everybody, practically everybody but me gravitates towards them. And so, but, you know, there are there are a lot of different ways that people are seeing the place now. And I also think that because information is at our fingertips, you know, people are able to jump right into something epic a lot quicker, you know, and so but I think, I think the way information is being shared is different. And when I started, you would go into the ranger station and just ask, does anybody know anything? And so that's what the process was. And Rangers had to be very informed to keep up. And I think there's less of that. I think there's less of that today. Jesse: Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I, my introduction to the Grand Canyon backcountry was like similar to yours in a lot of ways, like learning from other people. Oh, hey, this is a cool route. Like go try this one or like, and this, here are some things you need to watch out for on this route. Reading books, Grand Canyoneering was a big one for me, the Steck Loop Hikes books. But yeah, more and more of it's online and you, you're still relying on the knowledge of others, but you don't have to interact with them directly as, as much as you used to. And I, you know, we've had lots of conversations about routes in the backcountry office. And, I think there's definitely, well, just in general, something very valuable about that, the face to face interaction and knowledge sharing that we're kind of missing a little bit. Steve: The hiker changes, you know, and, I've changed in my own time. And I see it in the Sierra as much as I see it here. I've spent a lot of time in the High Sierra and I'm kind of, I'm one of the only people that I see that is still just going into places with as much time and food as possible, and just trying to explore because of what's taken off as long distance hiking and, and these through hikes and, so I'm the one carrying a giant backpack and everybody else is zipping through. And when I started, you know, if anybody was doing a hike that was more than ten miles long, we would flag it. It was all of a sudden a warning signs would go up. And now I talk to people routinely who want to do 25 or 35 mile days. And so it was something that as I watched it evolving, I said, you need to be careful not to judge people because, and also give the people what they want. Right. Like if someone is coming here for a 25 mile a day hike, who am I to say you can't do it or that you shouldn't do it? Or haven't you thought about this, that? They'll be okay. You know, like they're, there's a new kind of walker. Jesse: It's uh, It can be hard to learn that my way of enjoying something is not THE way to enjoy something. Steve: That's right. Jesse: Yeah, but it's an important thing to learn. Steve: Yeah, and I don't need to really place myself in the middle of someone's trip and tell them how it should be. You know, what I do every day is just try to gain advocacy from the public because I want them to support national parks. I want them to have a good experience with a ranger, and that's really where it needs to stop for me. And if they have questions, then I want to help them. But for a lot of people, you just have to, you know, let them have the oxygen and let them go. And I was doing that. And if anybody told me, you know, 20-25 years ago, you shouldn't be doing this, you know, I would have ignored them. Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yeah. The minute you tell somebody they can't do something is the minute they're going to like, definitely go out and do it. Steve: It's an invitation. Jesse: Exactly. Yeah. For sure. Well, you know, you you mentioned that the way you, experience the backcountry has changed recently. I know you've been working on, some big photo projects recently as well, so I'm curious. Well, let's let's first just start, like with how you got into photography. And then we'll get into what you're working on now. Steve: Well, I think, you know, my mom was always painting when I was young. She was an oil painter. So there was always this frame with something taking place in the middle of it. And just being a traveler, you know, you know, pre smartphone, everybody had cameras. And going into the Park Service people would say, well, you know, it's really great that you're a ranger and a photographer. And I think, how else could it be, you know, like how it was so hard. You know, I've gone through all kinds of different stages in my life, and there were times I refused to carry a journal or a camera because I just wanted to be in the wilderness, and I didn't want any distractions. Those were pretty short periods in my life. But I've always had a camera and I've always had, you know, people around me that I could ask questions to. And I've always seen brilliant art everywhere I've lived. And, you know, working in the national parks, you have artists all around you. You have writers and, you know, poets and painters and everybody, I can't even count how many people I've been exposed to that, that are just, you know, art is a central focus on their lives. I, working with Lon Ayres, I remember, he had a really nice camera, and I was using the point and shoot, and he let me borrow his camera, let me borrow his tripod. And so I bought my first camera that was really worth something, you know, like maybe 2001 or 2002. I was ready to up my game, and I bought, you know, a Leica German camera and went out shooting 35 millimeter film. And, and all of that has just kept growing. And, you know, when you live in these places and they're so accessible and you see these things that are beyond description, I think it's it's natural to want to capture that so you can enjoy it a little longer, see it again, share it with someone, show someone. I've never shown my work before this year, but I was working at with Wupatki National Monument and I saw their centennial coming up. I always wished I'd had more time during some of the other parks that I'd worked in, you know, during their centennials, I'd always wish that I had time to do something. And I decided that this was going to, you know, be the be the the occasion that I was going to try to really do something nice for the park and showcase the park properly. The process of being a photographer has changed for me a lot, too. I worked four years at Cabrillo National Monument, and I was right on the coast outside San Diego, and I got into doing time lapse of clouds. You know, again, the technology was developing. I had this computer that I could record this stuff with, and my progression has naturally been just getting more and more interested in the sky and the clouds and these really great big themes, you know. And so when I got to Wupatki, you know, Wupatki National Monument features a lot of 800 year old architecture that I could place up against the sky that I've been photographing. And, I ended up producing some really great photography out of it. I've never really printed photography before, and, I had to learn the process of taking a photo that looks good on a laptop, since I'm always living on the move, and then printing it and adjusting things so that the print on the wall looks as good as the monitor screen does, you know? And so I worked with a master print me of their name, Jim Crable and, he helped me print my work. And so this is the first year I've really launched it. And with Wupatki National Monument, the centennial, there was a great vehicle for that. So I have an exhibition of 33 prints at the Edge of the Cedars Museum in Blanding, Utah. They’re one of the archeological centers of the southwest. And, you know, I've got a couple other places that my work is showing right now. And so for me, I felt like my photography was finally good enough to be worth sharing, and other people were enjoying it. So it's it's very satisfying for me to be able to share this work because I'm sitting on a mountain of it. But this is definitely my best photography, and I think it'll continue. You know, I feel like, you know, whenever I get to some spot, I could just say, well, that's done. You know, I'm glad I accomplished that. I'm very proud of what I've managed to do there. But now I'm already thinking, so where does this go? What next? And, there are a lot of subjects I'd still like to expose, and I'm this type of person who always has a tripod behind the seat in my truck, and I'm always thinking about photography. So, maybe the next move will be doing something with all this time lapse material that I have. And, you know, I'm not a filmmaker, so I know, you know, maybe this process has given me more, a little more confidence to say, well, you learned how to print and you learned how to get this stuff on a wall. So what do you want to learn to make films? You want to put this stuff together? And I don't know I don't know yet where it all goes. Jesse: Yeah. You're not a filmmaker yet. Steve: I know, I know, and we'll see. Sounds like a lot of work. Jesse: Yeah, yeah, yeah it does. Steve: And to do it well, you know, when I look at stuff out there, when I see what professional photographers and filmmakers make, I am still in awe. Just like, you know, all of us are. We see this stuff and they've shown us something in a whole new way. And so, I'm glad that I don't have the motivation of trying to make a living at this. So far, what I've learned is I can put a lot of stuff up as long as I'm willing to pay for it. And, trying to make it profitable. Now, there's a lot of competition. Jesse: Yeah, definitely. I imagine it's pretty satisfying to see your work printed on large scale, as opposed to just on the laptop. What's, yeah, what's that been like? And to be able to see people interacting with it as well. Steve: Yeah. Especially with these really big subjects like sky, you know, if I'm using a really wide angle lens, it might be taking in 180 degrees. And and so what's fun for me is standing in front of my own work and seeing it in print form, because I can kind of scrutinize it too. But it takes me back to the moments, and I have all the memories of when I was doing that and what it was like, you know, because there's a whole life that's attached to this stuff, and I'm kind of a storm chaser. So I remember, you know, driving out of Flagstaff with a grocery, you know, with a truck full of groceries and thinking, I just need to get this stuff home. And then thinking, well, these clouds are too good. I'm going to shoot over here and just set the set up, you know, and spent, you know, 3 or 4 hours getting photography. Time lapse is really satisfying because you you take these long periods of time and compress them and get to see what's happening. And so I think a lot of where my photography grew from is looking up at the sky and not even being sure what direction the clouds are going or what's happening, and then you use that as a tool to to find it, you know, find out what's actually happening. But seeing it on a wall and seeing other people look at it, um it's really very satisfying, you know, because it all starts with, you know, deciding to buy camera equipment, trying to learn a skill, watching tutorials, learning from whoever it's possible to learn from. It's, you know, trying and trying and trying and just, fine tuning what the work is. And, the process is, you know, a big part of my life, and I love it, but seeing some kind of finished product on a wall and letting someone engage it or come over and talk to me about what was going on at that time or what's kind of technical decisions were being made. It really is great, you know, and I'm so glad it's not just sitting on an external drive and in the dark, you know? Jesse: Yeah. Steve: And so, the process of sharing anything, any time is always satisfying to, to, to, you know, increase its range and, let people take it in. It's very, it's really great. Jesse: Yeah. What do you think it is about photography that helps you connect with a landscape? Steve: There are so many ways to see that, you know, I remember, when I came back, because I'm like you, I've left the Grand Canyon a few times and come back. At one point, I was doing a lot of flights with the park as a passenger, and doing boundary patrols and stuff like that, and, getting up in the sky and getting a perspective over the Grand Canyon is so satisfying. It's one more way to see it. And it also helped me to kind of develop a photo library of, of much of the Grand Canyon. So if I was ever curious about something, it would help me kind of push myself further into the backcountry, and I would see that one of the rock layers, you know, had a ramp that went through it, and I could zoom way in on the photos. You know, the way I often see my own work is I projected on a on an eight foot wide screen. And so sometimes I'm in my living room, standing right next to the screen in front of me and looking at it and saying, I wonder if I can get through that? Jesse: Yeah. Steve: And I wonder if I could get enough water out there to do it. And so for me, you know, that's one example of how photography has opened up a different way of seeing the Grand Canyon, because then I get out there and, I'm not sure many people would have found their way out to a place like that. Maybe nobody. But it it keeps me, it's not even that I'm seeing the Grand Canyon in a different way. In a lot of a lot of cases. I'm seeing it for the first time. And when I left the Grand Canyon between 04 and 09, I wanted to leave because I would look into the Grand Canyon and I would just see these routes and hiking routes and places I've been, and I thought, I need to get a little distance from this place. I need to go away and come back and find it less familiar. And that's one thing I really like. I don't like knowing it all. I don't like understanding it all. I like going in and I like the uncertainty and and being unsure, you know, I just want to, see things for the first time, like anybody would. And so photography really, and other arts, you know, they show us so many different things, you know, and so there are a lot of artists out there and, and, you know, it's kind of like they're grappling with what they see, what they experience, what they feel, their understanding of themselves. You know, arts are so valuable to all of us and, that's why I arts are in all of our lives. Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. Well said. I like what you said, too about wanting to feel like you don't, like there's unknown still. I'm curious if there's a place, you know, you said you've been saving some some places in Grand Canyon for the future. Are there, like, what are what are some or one place in the Canyon that still holds a lot of mystery for you? Steve: I respect tribal sovereignty. And so, you know, especially when you're talking about the south side of the river, river left, you know, you have, the Diné Nation there. You have the Hualapai and Havasupai Tribes. Those are a lot of the places that I've never seen. And I think that in my lifetime, maybe I will see some of those. It's okay if I don't. You know, I never had the impression that I wanted to conquer something like Grand Canyon, or I wanted to finish it. And I feel bad for people who go through the Grand Canyon and do something epic and then feel like they've accomplished everything that they wanted to accomplish. Because I, I hope I never have that feeling, you know, I hope I’ll always have my health so that I can keep doing what I love. But the Tribal lands are the places that I really haven't seen. And then there are a lot of places where I would love to just go out and spend a month or six weeks. And I know that sounds kind of ridiculous, but the scale of Grand Canyon, some of these places are really, if you ever wanted to stand a chance of getting to know them, you would really have to put a lot of time towards it. And, and there are lots of things that are not time like vehicles and, you know, legwork and, you know, that it's, it's a big, big place. It's big, big country. So there are a lot of places I would love to get to know better. And there are a lot of places I'd love to return to, and some of them are out in the middle of nowhere that I've spent almost no no time in. Other places are the ones that I've done ten times, like the loop hikes that are possible off of the South Rim. I would love to spend a winter down in the South Rim just doing those again, because they're just so great. And so when people say, hey, I'm doing my second backpacking trip in the Grand Canyon, I'm going to go do this 2 or 3 night loop. I still feel this envy deep inside where I think even though I've done that over and over, I really want to do that again so badly, you know? So I'm excited for them. And, and, you know, we talk to people here have never seen the Grand Canyon before. And so that's really we're very privileged to be able to have the experienceonce in a lifetime to even see the Grand Canyon, you know, to stand on the rim and look into the Grand Canyon or to stand at the edge of the river and, consider all that time and all that, all that, everything now. So, you know, hopefully this goes on. Jesse: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the best we can hope for is that we still can do it. You know, I think of people like Doug, who are, he spends half of his weekends, you know, backpacking in the Canyon, and he's in his 70s. Podcast listeners will know him from many past episodes. But yeah, we'll be lucky if we can if we if we're like him. Steve: You know, we're on the North Rim. And one of the most popular hikes up here is Widforss and, you know, it's a five mile hike out. And if you're willing to carry your water you can spend a night out there. I'm still blown away by the fact that a hiker can do that, that we live in a place where you can get a permit and you can put 2 and a half hours into backpacking and spend the night out on the rim by yourself and look out over all that greatness. It's just, I know I've been doing this for a long time, but some of those really simple things, it still amazes me that they can happen. And so, yeah, I've seen hikers who go a long time and they just keep going and going and they take care of themselves. And, you know, they don't take unnecessary risk because they think I really just want to keep doing this more than anything else. And um, that's outstanding. You know, it's not a place that, you close the book on and and take it back to the bookshop and, and trade it in. You know, it's something that you spend your time in. Jesse: Yeah, yeah. Well said. Well, you know, as we kind of wrap up here, I'm curious if there, you know, 22 years here at Grand Canyon, I'm curious what is the like 1 or 2 most important things you've learned from the Canyon in your time here? Steve: Well, there are so many lessons in timelessness. You know, our place in it. I think that, you know, some of the larger life concepts like, you know, I feel my own stress and I think, you know, in context of Grand Canyon, am I taking myself too personally, to literally, too seriously? Some of these things come up when I think about how very big this place is, you know, and, I, I think it's kind of like a mirror for a lot of us. I think a lot of us will continue to learn more and more about ourselves by spending time in places like the Grand Canyon, whether we’re solo backpackers, or we go with our friends and we do these things. We want to just continue to build these lifetime, lifelong experiences. And this place is willing to give them. It's a great backdrop for all of this. So I think a lot of what I expect to still learn about the Grand Canyon is really what it'll show me about myself. You know? How I'll continue to learn about myself as I age and as I, you know, have to change how I do things. This is a really great learning tool. Jesse: Yeah, I think that's a great place to wrap it up. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you'd like to add, or, talk about? Steve: I don't know, I thank you so much, Jesse, and and thank you for your years of service as a ranger here. It's really been great working with you. And, you’re like a lot of people I've worked with, it's just been a pleasure. And, you know, good luck as you go on, too. Jesse: Yeah, likewise. It's also, yeah, been great learning from you and, working with you as well. The Behind the Scenery podcast is brought to you by the interpretation team at Grand Canyon National Park. A huge thanks to Steve for sharing his experiences and perspectives. We gratefully acknowledge the Native peoples on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their homes here today. Jesse: Um oh, is it true that your, the cabin that you live in by the north entrance is the inspiration for the Log Cabin Maple Syrup cabin? Steve: That's what I've heard. You know, I've been in the study collection. Apparently, Log Cabin Syrup has done a lot to restore cabins all over the country. And apparently that cabin is the one that's on the on the logo of the Log Cabin Syrup if you're familiar with that. So, but, you know, always separating, you know, the myth from the truth everywhere we look, we should always dig deeper and. Jesse: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah. Thanks so much, Steve. It's been a great conversation. Really appreciate it. Steve: Thank you, Jesse. Jesse: Yeah.

Listen in as we take a few moments to learn more about Joëlle Baird, a working mother in a high profile position in the park. Learn about her challenges and what it is like to raise children at the Grand Canyon. --- TRANSCRIPT: --- Sounds of children playing. Joëlle: Girls… Dave: Hi this is Ranger Dave. I'm sitting here talking to Joëlle Baird. And Joëlle can you tell us about what you do in the park? Joëlle: Yeah. So I am the public affairs officer for Grand Canyon National Park. Dave: Okay. And how long have you been doing that role? Joëlle: Yeah. So I have been in the role I'm in of in public affairs for the last four years, pretty much since the very beginning of the pandemic. But I've been at Grand Canyon for now, 13 years. Dave: How did you get to this point in your career? One doesn't just become a PIO overnight. Joëlle: Yeah. So another way to think about it, public affairs officer or public information officer sometimes those terms are used interchangeably, but it has been a not a linear path I'll say. Like so many people in the Park Service who get into this, it sometimes takes a little while to kind of find your niche. And really, there's so many jobs in the Park Service that I have had and experiences. So I actually started out in high school with the Student Conservation Association doing trail work. That's that was my entry into the Park Service back in 2005. And since then, I've had a variety of jobs working in vegetation, and EMS and search and rescue, law enforcement, and eventually find myself in public affairs. So it has been a winding path, to say the least. Dave: Yeah. Do you feel like all the different jobs kind of culminated to this one? Or do you pull from all those different experiences. Joëlle: I definitely pull from all the experiences and I think that has really lended itself well to being a public information officer, especially at a park like this, where there's so many different jobs and divisions. And so I really rely on those experiences and lean into those quite often when I'm talking and providing information to the general public. Since I have had those variety of experiences, I think it's really led me to be a good PIO and understand the park in a more holistic way. Dave: Okay do you feel like there are any special skills that you need to be a PIO? Joëlle: Yeah, I think one of the big ones that I, is probably the most cornerstone is just strong writing skills. You know, it is something that I fortunately had a lot of experience early on with being a strong writer, and I would say just being comfortable talking to the public also. So a lot of times, PIOs, you know, they might come in the Park Service from the interpretation background that really lends itself to talking with the public, but really just a general comfort with talking to the public and also being really aware and well-versed on the different types of issues that you're communicating. So in Grand Canyon National Park, we have a number of issues that have high media interest and a lot of public interest as well. So you do need to be briefed on those issues and fully understand the complexity of them when talking to the public or with media outlets, that kind of thing. Dave: How did you get the skills that you need to get to this role? Joëlle: A lot of it is just been on the job training and it definitely helps being in a place for a while. So being here in Grand Canyon for 13 years, you start to learn more about the place and its complexities and the issues around it. So I'd say a lot of the skills I've learned have just been being here in the park for as long as I have and being willing and open to learn, also, from the experts here in the park. I heavily rely on subject matter experts to help me understand issues that, and try to communicate in a clear way to the public on some of the issues. Dave: Okay so I heard recently that you went to grad school. I'm curious about what led you to the to make that choice. At that time, I know you're working full time at the same time, so that's got to be complicated. Joëlle: Yeah, yeah, I knew I wanted to go back to school. My undergrad and a lot of my background is in science. I graduated in forestry and really I felt like I kind of needed more in terms of my education background. So I just graduated this last spring with a master's in communications from Arizona State University, and that's been a great experience. And the cool thing about that is I was able to take a lot of my work and apply it to my grad school studies. So it was very integrative of what I'm already doing here on the job, but also learning through practical experience as I went through the program. Dave: So in the park you work in a very high profile job. I would say this is one of the most public facing parks in our country. Are there many PIO jobs in the NPS that are like this? Joëlle: Not really. They're pretty few and far between For folks who are interested in going into this career field, It is the, what's called the 1035 series, which is public affairs. So many federal agencies have jobs like this. The Park Service, though, doesn't have a lot There's only probably about 50 in the entire agency. And a lot of that is because public affairs and public information is often a collateral duty for in the interpretation division. It's only those bigger parks that might be more high profile or have more visitation that have a dedicated public information officer or public affairs officer. So the big parks like we think of, you know, the Y parks, Grand Canyon, the big parks, I would say. Dave: So with like only 50 people doing this. How many women are in these roles? Joëlle: Yeah, it's actually predominantly women in in public information and public affairs, not entirely sure why that is. But yeah, there is also a regional and kind of a national office too, in terms of public affairs with the National Park Service, so there are you dedicated park PIOs, but there's also a support system, if you will, of regional public affairs specialist as well as at the national the Washington office level for the National Park Service. Dave: So if you do need help, you have someone else to talk to. I hope, so yeah. Joëlle: Exactly. Yeah. That's been a huge reliance that is great to have and just people, when things happen that go sideways in the park that we weren't expecting, we can rely and call on the regional or the Washington office for that kind of support. Dave: Okay. Do you find that you're collaborating with other PIOs in other parks at times too? Joëlle: Absolutely. The issues that we have here in Grand Canyon, a lot of them aren't unique to Grand Canyon. So, for example, Colorado River issues. The Colorado River spans across multiple parks. So having good working relationships with Glen Canyon, Lake Mead, that's hugely important. Zion National Park actually has around the same visitation levels that we do, and a lot of the same challenges with managing visitors in high volume and popular park here in the Southwest. So I really like working with Zion. I think that park is very closely related to some of the issues that we have here. Dave: Okay. If folks wanted to someday become a public information officer, you know, what do you think the easiest route is to maybe get a job like yours? Joëlle: Mhm. So with public information, a lot of people get into it from the fire ranks. So the U.S. Forest Service, as well as the Park Service, there's a huge need for wildland fire public information officers, especially in the western states. Fire is all around us, especially during fire season. So there is a need to be a qualified fire public information officer. There's a lot of kind of, I would say, easy ramps to get into it from the fire PIO realm into the Park Service, into other federal agencies. So the Job series is the 1035 public affairs officer, or public information officer. There are a lot of jobs and other agencies that are open, it would be surprising. I mean, the U.S. Mint and the, you know, the IRS as public affairs specialists. So a lot of people get into it from other agencies and then transfer to the National Park Service. But really, it's just getting firsthand experience at really any agency. Wildland fire is an easy avenue just because fires are always happening and they always need people to communicate with the public on the issues. And it can be a great way to also understand from kind of an incident management side of the house, because that is a big job and a key piece of what I do day in and day out is be a part of incident management teams that are coordinated and highly structured. So working within any type of incident management team in any role, you know that that can also be an easy way to get experience, to understand what a PIO does day in and day out. Dave: Okay. Yeah, and probably learn some of the challenges to prepared. Joëlle: Absolutely. Yeah. And if individuals have comfort in speaking with the media and being on camera and a lot a lot of people come from actually the journalism ranks, a lot of former journalists are coming to the world of public information with government agencies with that background too. So there's quite a few avenues in terms of entry into the job series. Dave: Okay, great. What are the demands of the job? Like, what's your kind of day to day? What's the pressure like? Joëlle: Yeah, so in general, every day is a little bit different and that's because things are ever evolving. So there is a large portion of the job that is reactive in nature. There's a lot that happens here with search and rescues in Grand Canyon, but also just things happening in the park. So any given day, I don't entirely know what's going to be on my plate. Sometimes there's a major incident that drops and we need information communicated to the public within a short period of time. A lot of my job is crafting news releases, engaging with the media, and I also help manage the social media accounts for Grand Canyon. And we have a great team also here that helps with a lot of the visual information as well as photography. So it is it is definitely a collaborative effort. I can't do everything on my own and I really rely on those in my office, which is the Office of Communications, Partnerships, and External Affairs, to help me on a day to day basis. Dave: So it sounds like you could start out your track on one day at the beginning of the day, and it just changes middle of the day to if something drastically changes or happens. Joëlle: Absolutely, Yeah. As of late right now, this recording, you know, we're in September of 2024 and August has just been a very busy month as well as the beginning of September. We have just had a lot going on, flash flooding, multiple fatalities within a short period of time. Right now, we have a live capture and transfer program happening with our bison on the North Rim. So just a lot is kind of happening this time of year in general. And a lot of times it's shifting and almost triaging the different issues. And what's important now, I, I kind of have to ask myself that every single day is like, what's important now? What's important for today? And some of it is kind of being reactive, but also trying to be proactive in communications and, um, anticipating what's ahead also. Dave: Okay, like how do you begin to balance the need for all of this information? And because we have to give out information about especially sensitive incidents with like a respect for privacy, are there things that guide us in there? Joëlle: Yeah. So I think a lot of it comes down to transparency. Being in the federal government, you know, we owe it to the American people and the public to be transparent in information. Of course, there are some sensitivities of how and what information is released, and there's a process to go about that. But people want to know what's going on in Grand Canyon. Like this is this is a great park and a lot of attention, you know, we have an audience of hundreds of stakeholder groups and different visitor groups, everything from Colorado River users to those who are concerned about uranium mining to, you know, tribal interests. So it is very complex, the stakeholder groups that we have here. And that's a really key piece of my job is making sure that people are informed and they know at the end of the day what's going on here. We're not trying to hide anything. And oftentimes we try to be proactive and overcommunicate, if anything, um the big issues that are going on in the park and what people should know. Dave: Yeah, it seems like a lot of it is related to safety, too, and getting the warning out so people know how to prepare and not make mistakes or have more challenges later. Joëlle: So yeah, absolutely. And I work really close with our preventive search and rescue coordinator, Meghan Smith. It seems like in the last couple of months we've really been trying to identify a strategy to talk about all the recent fatalities, as well as, you know, just how visitors can be safe when they're coming to Grand Canyon. Dave: Yeah. Do you think this year has been like busier for that messaging than normal or about average? Joëlle: There is definitely a lot more media interest this year, so this year is not atypical. We've had busier years in the past, but it seems like the media spotlight is on us right now for especially deaths in Grand Canyon. So we're trying to, you know, navigate that appropriately. And we're also working really closely with our Washington office because they're getting a lot of the same questions on the national level from media about why are all these people dying in national parks all of a sudden and as we know, you know, national parks, their, um, place that, you know, millions of people visit. And a lot of times the media interest and narrative has gone to, you know, what park is the most dangerous and Grand Canyon is not the most dangerous park, but a lot of people think and might have conceptions that it is just based on the amount of media attention the fatalities here generate. Dave: So you're a mother and your husband also works at the park. It seems like a challenging job to balance work and life. So how does that all work out for you? Joëlle: Yeah, so I do have a background in law enforcement. I was a law enforcement officer six years before I transitioned into public affairs. So having that background um it helps me empathize with my husband a little more and understand some of the stresses and challenges that he goes through. Um, he's also a paramedic for the park and, and does a lot with search and rescue. So oftentimes we will be on the same, the same incident together in very different capacities. I'm doing the public information side of the house and he's, you know, the actual one at the end of the rope helping somebody or at the end of a long line on a helicopter. So we have very different, you know, experiences doing incidents. But oftentimes it is nice because we do get a chance to work together in a very different way. But yeah, it's been a wild ride. We do have two young children who are three and four years old, so kind of navigating our jobs through that process and also being parents, it's been it's been crazy but very enjoyable. And you know, we still are we're in it right now kind of in the thick of it. Sound of children playing. Dave: Raising kids at Grand Canyon, it's something that happens on North Rim at all, really. But here at South Rim, it's quite different. What's it like? You know? Joëlle: Yeah, this is actually an amazing community for raising kids. And it is a small community of about 2500 residents year round. There is a small daycare center and a pre-K through 12th grade school here. It's a very small community and it's just a great way to raise a family. It's, you know, there are residential neighborhoods where, you know, kids play on the streets, you know, and it's a really warm and welcoming environment for families here, which is a big draw for a lot of families to come to the South Rim is just having that support network here. But also the services, you know, that come along with having a family. So. Dave: Yeah, probably something you only find in a larger park, I would expect. Joëlle: Right. And Grand Canyon actually has the only pre-K through 12th grade school in the entire agency. So that is kind of a unique thing about living and working here at Grand Canyon. You know, the school isn't more than half a mile away from any of the residential areas, and same with the daycare. So everything is relatively close, which also makes it a huge draw for people. You can be, you know, reliant on just biking and walking. You don't necessarily even need a car in a lot of situations, but yeah it's a very family friendly spot to be. Dave: I can't imagine growing up like walking distance to the rim of the Grand Canyon. Do you think that's a typical childhood for them? Is that going to be different? Joëlle: Yeah, I, I don't know. Having young children, it seems like the Canyon is still a very foreign thing to them. And granted, they're at an age where we haven't done a lot of hiking in the Inner Canyon quite yet but it is kind of this mysterious thing to them a little bit. One of my children has a new fear of heights, or so they say. And so that's been challenging to navigate because we live on the South Rim of Grand Canyon. And what do you mean you have a fear of heights, like. I mean, it's a very natural instinct to have as a child, but we're still working through that right now and trying to be comfortable with heights and being on the rim of the Canyon. Yeah. Dave: Yeah. Especially if Dad's hanging off a helicopter. It might be a little scary. Joëlle: Exactly. They love the helicopters, though. They love seeing the helicopters take off and land. That seems to be a big draw. Dave: Well, that's good. Maybe you can work through that. Joëlle: Uh huh. Sound of children giggling. Dave: So in your role, who do you look up to? Joëlle: That’s as a good question. I really look up to a lot of the people who I work with and around. We have an amazing photographer here in the park who's been here about 30 years. His name is Michael Quinn. Um, I look up to him constantly. The work that he's done and the work that he puts in day in and day out, he is definitely one of my inspirations, but also, you know, staff. I work with Jan Balsam, who's my supervisor and the Chief of the Office of Communications, and Partnerships, and External Affairs. She's been here in the park for 40 years. We're sitting right now in her office and she's also an inspiration. So I don't think, in my current role, I don't have to look far to kind of find these people who have just been here at the park for such a long time and have such a love and passion for this place and have stayed here their entire careers and have no interest in leaving. Grand Canyon kind of has put their hooks into them and they have they have stayed here a very long time. And that is inspiring in and of itself. Dave: Yeah, I think it's remarkable that people stay that long in one park. Joëlle: Mmhm And that's not typical, though. You know, the Park Service there is kind of this mentality that, you know, people bounce around. You go to Grand Canyon for a couple of years and then maybe you go to another park and to have people stay in one place for such a period of time, that's it's actually pretty unusual. Dave: Yeah. Is there anything that you've really learned from them that you think you want to share? Joëlle: Yeah, I think just the deep understanding and the relationships that they have cultivated in such a long time here, it's one of those things that takes a really long time to cultivate strong relationships. For example, with Jan, with the length of time she's been here, she has had such deep connections and ties to the Tribal communities and our partners here that it goes back decades and decades. And so that is something that is really powerful and has a lot of leverage and significance when you're talking about, you know, building partnerships and having trust in a federal agency, which can also be a challenge sometimes. But when you have people who are so dedicated and have been here such a long time, trusting is easier. So I think that's definitely something that it just takes time to cultivate. Dave: Yeah, I can imagine that sort of managing Tribal trust is really challenging. Joëlle: Absolutely and Jan, at least her, her previous background is in archeology, so she also has a really firm understanding of monitoring archeological sites and really understanding the Tribal significance in a lot of Grand Canyon issues. Sound of children playing. Dave: So we've talked about people that you look up to and learn from. Um, what do you hope your children will learn from you? Joëlle: Yeah, I think the biggest thing I would love to impart on my children as they're growing up and as they continue through their lives is just having an appreciation for outdoor spaces and public lands, but also just land in general. I grew up on a dairy farm in Wisconsin, and early on it was very ingrained in me and the rest of my family just how precious land is. If you treat land well, it will give you much more in return. And so I think I've carried kind of that ethic forward in my life of just being a good land steward and that has evolved over the years, obviously, from my family's background in farming to even just working in the National Park Service. So I think that's probably one of the bigger things I would love to impart and imprint on my children. Sound of children playing. Dave: What are you the proudest of? Joëlle: Yeah, I think right now in this stage of life is really just trying to stay grounded day in and day out. I do have you know, a very stressful job at times that can pull me in a lot of different directions. But at the end of the day, I'm going home at 5:00 to pick the kids up from daycare. And so I am able to kind of transition really quickly in the roles that I have throughout the day, which is no small feat. I mean, many working parents, I think, can empathize with that, too, of, you know, you have to switch modes really quickly and all of a sudden I'm PIO, but then I need to be I need to be mom for two young kids. So I think just trying to navigate kind of that switch on switch off of being a working parent right now in this stage of life is probably what I'm proudest of. Sound of children playing. Joëlle: So while you were gone we learned a new dance in the morning called the soggy bottom dance. Dave: Yeah, that, it sounds really challenging. Is there any other roles that you play in helping people to learn important messaging in the park? Joëlle: Mmhm Oh, one of the collateral duties that I have that most folks probably wouldn't know much about is that I help manage all the filming and photography permits here for the park. And so these are everything from YouTube influencers to large production companies that come here to Grand Canyon and they want to film. They want to film a TV show, a documentary. They want to, you know, sell, sell something. So we have quite a large interest in people wanting to film here. And a part of my job is to issue those special use permits for people to come here and experience the park through the filming lens, which is really cool. So oftentimes I get to help out and assist with film monitoring, making sure that film crews are, you know, obviously respecting the natural environment, but also that there's no visitor conflicts that are happening and people are still free to go about and enjoy the park as is. So that's a really cool aspect. I've gotten to meet some cool celebrities over the years and as you can imagine, like everyone wants to come here to Grand Canyon to film. And so it's a great iconic backdrop. And you know, year round we have interest in people coming here to film. Dave: Okay. Are there is there any types of films that you think have really stood out over the years or any in particular? Joëlle: Yeah, one actually was for an HBO series and I won't name the actual series, but it had a character in the scene and they were scattering ashes of their loved one over the rim of the Canyon. That was a part of the storyline and the draw of why they wanted to come here to Grand Canyon to film. As some of listeners might or might not know but, Grand Canyon back in 2020 prohibited the scattering of human ashes out of respect for our Tribal communities. Grand Canyon is thought of as a living landscape, and so out of respect for our Tribal communities, that ban was in place. So it we had this filming request, though where I mean, it wasn't it wasn't real ashes, of course, but it was it was a little bit of a challenge to to come up and speak with HBO and talk about to them of the sensitivities around a scene like this. And we worked with them effectively to actually, they put in kind of their show notes at the very end of the episode, just with the caveat that this activity is illegal out of respect for our Tribal communities. So they were able to incorporate that into the episode despite it being shown. Dave: Yeah. So that's good that they're able to share the correct messaging. Joëlle: Yeah, absolutely. But that one definitely stood out and you know, there's others that along the way, you know, we, we sometimes have to guide filming in a way that's appropriate and not showing illegal activities taking place in the park or things that are unsafe. Dave: Okay. Yeah. Um, I would think that that's hard to also try and navigate those conversations to try and, people come here with certain perceptions. But how do you get them to be like actually this is what we need to do here. Joëlle: Yeah. I think that's, that's an important aspect is, is definitely the safety piece. There sometimes is this conception of, you know, Evel Knievel going over Grand Canyon and kind of the stunts that can be very dangerous if people are actually trying to attempt them on their own. So that's definitely a conversation that we have and a lot of producers are very respectful and recognize that they don't want to have a misperception of Grand Canyon and make it unsafe or, you know, encourage people to do anything illegal. So thankfully, we've had a lot of really positive conversations and they really understand that we're trying to protect this place and at the end of the day, keep visitors safe. Dave: Okay. What should everyone know about the Grand Canyon? Joëlle: Yeah, I think one thing that I'd love to highlight and maybe this is a lesser known aspect of Grand Canyon, is just how accessible it is for individuals with disabilities who might have mobility challenges. Most of the Grand Canyon here on the South Rim especially is very accessible. Our shuttle busses here are equipped with handicapped wheelchairs, and the rim trail itself is paved. That's, I think, one of the things that's surprising from visitors and a lot of feedback that we receive is just how welcoming in the South Rim can be for people of all abilities, all mobilities. So I think there's something here for everybody and that's part of the reason in my mind. What makes it a special place and probably a big reason why we have as many visitors as we do. So I, I love this place, place and park, and this is the longest I've had at any national park in in my time with the National Park Service. And I think it's got its hooks in me and I'm probably not going to be leaving anytime soon. And I think a lot of people I work with and certainly a lot of people who have spent time here at the Canyon can relate to that as well. Dave: Yeah, it's also the longest I've ever worked in the park, too. So it's really interesting that we can find some stability in some parks and places. Joëlle: Yeah. And it's not common in some parks, you know, but Grand Canyon seems to be one of those places that it gets to you, latches in. Dave: Well, thanks for taking the time to talk with us and to share about your life and your job. Yeah, we're always excited to learn more from folks who work in the park. Joëlle: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Dave. Sound of children playing. Adam (Joelle’s husband): I love it when my Apple Watch, alerts me that the decibel volume is too high for your ears. This is just parenting. Dave: We gratefully acknowledge the Native peoples on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their homes here today.

Ed Kabotie is an artist, musician, and educator from the Hopi village of Shungopavi and the Tewa village of Santa Clara. Join us on this episode of Behind the Scenery and hear Ed discuss his work, his connection to the Grand Canyon, and the messaging in his music. You can find his work on YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook. --- TRANSCRIPT: --- [Flute Music] ALICIA: That was Ed Kabotie playing the flute here on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. My name is Alicia and I’m a ranger here at Grand Canyon National Park. In early September 2024, I had the opportunity to sit down with Ed and talk about his work as an artist, musician, and educator. We sat on a picnic table outside of the cabin where he stayed, surrounded by late-season wildflowers and towering ponderosa pines. In this episode, you'll hear some occasional noise from the wind. If you listen closely, you might also hear birds chirping and the sound of pinecones dropping from the ponderosas around us. Thanks for joining us today. ALICIA: Really grateful that you came out to the park today, so thank you so much for being here. ED: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so grateful. Yeah. Love this place. Super beautiful today. Love to hear the pinecones dropping all over the place. ALICIA: Yeah. So, Ed you're a multifaceted creative, right, a multi-talented artist. You're a musician, an educator, and I know you have a family history in art, too. So can you tell us a little bit about your background as an artist and how it connects with your work today. ED: Wow, that's a big question. When I, when I hear the reference to family, I think back to my grandfather, you know? So my great grandfather, Lolomayaoma was arrested in 1906 for refusing to send my grandfather to school. He was six years old at the time. This was a, you know, boarding school in Pennsylvania. So I mean, 1000 miles away, kill the Indian, save the man. Of course he resisted, you know, and he was put in prison for his resistance. My grandfather actually ran away from school till he was 15 and then he was sent to Santa Fe Indian School, which is the same boarding school I graduated from, as well. But Santa Fe Indian School has an interesting history of its own type of renegade resistance. You know, Dorothy Dunn-style studio art, well known in Indian art that comes later. My grandfather was there during the DeHuff administration and Principal, or Superintendent, rather, DeHuff was demoted from the Indian Service because he and his wife were encouraging, you know, the children in their culture rather than, you know, trying to extinguish it. My grandfather was singled out along with two other artists, Otis from Shongopovi and then Velino Shije from Zia Pueblo and those three as vocational training were actually given exposure to techniques in art, and so my grandfather began a journey there. He's kind of a world-renowned kind of guy. You know, he's known at the Grand Canyon for the Watchtower murals, which were done in 1932. That's not typically his style, you know, he went, he reverted to kind of an ancient style of art with the watchtower murals. His art journey is just incredible. He was a Guggenheim Fellow, and he also was instrumental in the development of the overlay techniques in Hopi. He spearheaded the development of the Guild, which trained silversmiths, 60s, 70s, 80s in Hopi. He was very involved with the establishment of the Hopi Cultural Center as well, so. He was a U.S. ambassador to India, you know, Goodwill Ambassador, Agricultural Summit. He was commissioned by Mrs. Roosevelt to do a piece of work when she visited him at the Peabody Museum at Harvard during one of their openings. It's a really remarkable journey that he had. I, I never knew him as an artist. I knew him as a hard-ass Hopi farmer, you know? But my father was, of course, very engaged in art, as well. And so I'm a third-generation artist. My father, I would say, is probably my biggest inspiration, kind of in an abstract way. I mean, I think my dad did not want to follow in his father's footsteps. I don't want to follow in my dad's footsteps. I think we all try to be very distinct in our journeys. But there's that process of osmosis that takes place when you're in an artist's home and you know the work is being done. You know, I can hear my dad's saw blade going, you know, as he would make jewelry, singing songs, listening to songs, humming kachina songs, you know, just as he would work. You know? So it was a it was a very, very special atmosphere and I think that nurtured me in my work. There's a number of things that brought me to the place. In my own personal expression, music and art have played a big part of my journey, and music tends to be my forte not necessarily by choice. I love, I love the serenity of creating visual art. There's something about it that I have to be in a good place to do it and it's something that I long for to be in places like this, honestly, this is this is where I generate artwork. ALICIA: Yeah. I wanted to ask where you where you draw inspiration for your songwriting, which I guess is you said places like this. Where else do you do you draw inspiration for your your art and your music? ED: I draw inspiration from indigenous history. I draw inspiration from my culture. I draw inspiration from a lot of the negative that I see around me in the history of my people, in our relationship with the United States government, you know both past and present. So I think sometimes people refer to me as an activist, which I, I tend to resist that concept because I feel like an activist is active, you know? I mean, my vibe is like, yo, we all just need to slow down. You know, we, we need to come to a place where we can be in spaces like this to listen to the rhythm of nature, how it connects with the rhythm of our spirit. And find a way to think consciously again. You know, if I feel like that's, the biggest problems that we have in this world are, they need a spiritual solution. And I hope that somehow through my art and music, I'm able to elevate my thinking and hopefully maybe other people's thinking at the same time about conscious thought regarding environmental social justice issues on the Colorado Plateau, Grand Canyon Region, and also in the world in general. ALICIA: When you look back at your time that you've been creating music or creating art, do you think your, your style has changed? Maybe the content of your music or the style of your music, or? ED: Absolutely. I mean, in regards to music I feel like my journey as a musician started in my home communities. I feel like everybody's a musician where I come from; from the time you're a child, you know, everybody's introduced to song, everybody's introduced to dance as a form of prayer, and as a form of interacting with the universe. And that also crosses over to visual art, as well. I was exposed to rock music via a Native American band called XIT, X-I-T, who was on Motown Records like between 1970 and 1972, and they put out a couple of amazing albums, one called Plight of the Redman, one called Silent Warrior, and they were very aggressive in their message. I, I mean think back what was happening in Native America in 1970, 1972 that's the takeover of Alcatraz, that's the takeover of Wounded Knee. That's the American Indian Movement, you know, taking over BIA offices in Washington, I mean, all of that was kind of expressed in the spirit of their music. When I got into boarding school, I you know, metal was kind of communicating to me and a lot of us because I think, as third generation boarding school students, we were all pretty pissed off, you know? And it made a lot of sense. When I, when I heard reggae, I recognized that reggae was like very angry music, you know? And I'm talking about Jamaican reggae, Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, Bunny Wailer, you know, those old school guys. And their message was very aggressive as well, a cry for justice for 400 years of oppression. And sometimes when I would listen to the music of Bob Marley, it would just feel like he was singing about me, you know? I got homesick after living off the reservation some years down the road after high school. I was a drummer in music originally, that's kind of my passion, but I always kind of continued carrying a guitar. I left music just because it was difficult for me separate some of the dysfunctional things that follow rock'n'roll, you know? And I started a family very young, so, you know, I, I felt like it was wise for me to put away, you know, the drum kit. But of course, you know, it's you can't, you can't keep music out of your brain, you know, or out of your heart when it's there. And, you know, I'm always tapping on everything and, you know, fiddling with guitar. And out of homesickness, I began to sing more traditional style melodies in Hopi and Tewa and translate it into guitar. That's the way my original music started. You know, the original recordings of original music and it was very history-focused. I thought a lot about my kids. I thought a lot about youth growing up on the reservations. You know, I wanted them to hear their music. I wanted to them hear, for them to hear stories about their heroes, you know? And that's kind of the way it took off. I got arrested in Coconino County for marijuana possession. You know, at a at a time that that the state of Arizona was like, very aggressively against it, right? And so like, for less than a gram of marijuana. I was. I was charged with felony possession, felony paraphernalia, blah blah la la la. When I got arrested, you know, I, you know, I heard I've heard about my people talking about being careful about border towns all my life. I never had a problem personally until then. You know, and now I'm in jail, facing prison time, and I'm looking at everybody else who's in jail and we're looking like 80% Native American. And today in Flagstaff, and this is not my statistics, this is statistics coming from the Flagstaff Police Department, they consistently over the last decade every year annually arrest about 50% of their arrests are of Native American people. Native Americans make up 8% of the population of Flagstaff. You know, so something's haywire, right? And my music changed. You know, I adapted more of a reggae style and began to cry out against not only what I was experiencing, you know, on the opposite side of the law, but also the environmental issues. 45 billion gallons of water sucked up from underneath Hopi in the Kayenta mine, during the slurry operation of the Kayenta mine, where we were initially paid 3.3% for the market value of coal and $1.67 cents for every 326,000 gallons of water. A 300-year water supply just gone in 35 years, and so what we're left with today is arsenic-contaminated water systems in Hopi. You know, if you have running water in Hopi you can't drink what comes out of a faucet. And that's if you have running water. Sitting in the jail cell, you know, you kind of start recognizing disparity. Playing and living on the street, you kind of, you kind of look at the lifestyle of the people around you and compare it to, you know, what your experience is. And I wouldn't trade my life for anything. I wouldn't trade my upbringing or the place that I choose to live for anything. Right? But you recognize what's happening? You know, 500 to 1000 open pit uranium mines on Navajo Nation, leftover from the Cold War. We kicked out the Havasupai nation in 1918 from the Grand Canyon region so that we could establish the National Park. And now that we've stuck them into a side canyon and restricted them to that place, now we've built a uranium mine on top of the Muav Aquifer that gives and provides water for them, you know, and we're transporting this radioactive ore from the Grand Canyon through the already-impacted communities of Navajo Nation on up to yet another reservation, or the only operating uranium mill in the United States which neighbors the Ute Mountain Ute or the Ute Nation in Utah, you know so. It's crazy, you know, we hear about Flint, MI, why don't we hear about Hopi, you know? We heard we hear about, you know, the tragic uranium tragedies overseas or in New York, you know, but we don't hear, we don't hear about the largest spill, you know, uranium accident in North America, which is on Navajo Nation, you know? It's, this became the cry of my music and the band Tha’ Yoties was formed, you know, short for coyotes, because we're howling for the people and lands of the Colorado Plateau. ALICIA: What do you want to convey? How do you decide what messages you want to share through your music? ED: I mean, that's not a decision I make, you know? I mean, I feel like, I feel like my business plan is often feeling the current of the river or feeling the movement of the wind, so to speak metaphorically, you know, I mean it's, it's like where and how the great Spirit is leading, you know? And yeah, I mean we are currently doing what we can to bring awareness to the situation of the Havasupai, we've been working on that pretty heavily this year. Rumble on the Mountain is an annual show that we do in Flagstaff, which is about, you know, a 4 to 6 hour show where we bring in Native speakers to talk about our issues, you know, not to have somebody else tell our stories, which is kind of typical. But you know, now we're going to tell you our stories our way, right? And we bring in traditional dance groups, traditional musicians, scholars, activists, contemporary bands, and we, through edutainment, a phrase I stole from Walt Disney, part education and part entertainment, right, we try to convey a message to the community. And to, again, howl for the people and lands of the Colorado Plateau. We were invited by the Supai down to the village earlier this year, where we performed for the community, which was a real blessing to us. We shared a song there called "War”, and it's a song that was composed a few years ago about the Supai, because to me they're this tiny little tribe, but they've been teaching all of the rest of us in Northern Arizona how to fight. And they've been very strategic and shrewd. I mean, so much so that now we have the President of the United States last year coming out to designate the Baaj Nwaavjo I’tah Kukveni, Greater Grand Canyon Monument, you know, I mean, that's, that's an amazing thing and last year as well in the fall, we took a delegation of Hopi and Supai out to Washington, DC, where we did some lobbying out there. But we performed the show at the Smithsonian, Native voices of the Grand Canyon again, in an effort to raise awareness of what's taking place. We did a big show in Tuba City this year that we called uprising that was on Pueblo Revolt Day, the 344th anniversary of the Pueblo Revolt in Tuba City, again that's right along the haul route. And so that's kind of our focus. The song “War” is meant to recognize that we're still in a war, you know? I mean, it hasn't stopped for us in Northern Arizona. You know, we, national spotlight was given to the disparity that we live in compared to the communities around us during the pandemic, you know? We had a lot of national focus talking about how far people needed to drive to get simple medical attention or to get adequate nourishment AKA a grocery store or a hospital, you know? And to me, we have those moments of awakening in this country. You know, we had the civil rights movement, you know. But we tend to lapse again and can kind of forget about those things. I feel like the murder of George Floyd kind of shook the country up, the pandemic kind of shook the country up, where again we said, “aha,” you know, and somehow connected with our national conscience. But it's also so easy for us to forget. And we don't want people to forget. So this song says “Havasupai Nation leading in the fight. Conscious hearts and minds unite, Havasuw `Baaja, your story we heed. Beware of corporate corruption and greed. It's a warning. It's a distant early warning because we're in a global crisis. We're living heartless, mindless. Mankind’s left up to his selfish devices. It's a war.” And it's not a war against institutions. I mean, I guess in a way it is because it's, it's a war against philosophies, isms and schisms. Again, the pandemic I feel like introduced us to the term systemic racism, which is what we've been talking about for years, but never really had a term that the country could sink its teeth into. You know, I feel I feel like now we do. And honestly, I personally feel like Grand Canyon National Park with the millions of visitors that come to the park every year, this is where people need to hear about it, you know? This is where it's all happening. At the same time, it's where things tend to be out of sight, out of mind for us. ALICIA: When people come to the Grand Canyon, what do you want them to come away with? You know, you talk about this being the spot for them to be getting that information. So is there something that you hope that people leave the Grand Canyon with when they when they come to visit? ED: Absolutely. I, I do feel like the Grand Canyon is a place where people come and their hearts are impacted, you know, I mean it's, it’s, yeah there's the National Lampoon's Vacation, where you come and you just kind of glance at it and blaze off. You know what I mean? I suppose that happens. But I also feel like, you know, people are deeply impacted, you know, when they take the time to appreciate. I think the park and the Harvey Company, before, you know, I feel like have been very selective in the stories that they tell about Native America, you know? And I feel like it's, there's been an atmosphere in the park since the pandemic, you know, that Native voices need to come to the forefront. I'm in full support of that, you know, and what I would hope that when visitors come that they would see us flesh and blood. That they would be educated about the Kayenta Mine, that they would be educated about the most endangered river in North America, the Colorado River, the water situation in Hopi, the water situation in Supai, the water situation in Navajo, you know? Get an understanding of what's taking place here because, I mean, the preservation of resources in the Grand Canyon is more than the natural resources that are here. It's more than the water, it's more than the animals, it's more than the wildlife. It's also the people. And somehow we've communicated everything else, but we haven't talked about the people, you know? Right now here at Grand Canyon National Park, Desert View is being designated as a as a cultural spot. And I'm like, yo, just don't make that a reservation. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, let that become the heartbeat, then let it permeate throughout the park, throughout the park system, throughout, throughout the National Park system, right? Metaphorically, Desert View has the watchtower, right? And what is the purpose of a watchtower? You know, I mean it's it's to create a beacon, you know, a guiding point, for us, an overlook. And to me that's, that's what the potential is, you know, for the voices, the native voices of the Grand Canyon. If we could utilize the platform here, to share our burdens with the world, I think, you know, that would be tremendous. I mean that's, that's the big step in change is just communication of stories. ALICIA: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ED: Through podcasts in this day and age. ALICIA: Through podcasts, yeah! You talked about your work being really, I mean, just so deeply connected to like the landscape here and the people in Northern Arizona. And can you tell me a little bit about your connection to the land, or to the land in the Grand Canyon, you know, how you feel when you're here? ED: Yeah, that's a really great question, as well. Difficult to answer in a way. In a Judeo-Christian paradigm, human life begins at the Garden of Eden, somewhere in Mesopotamia. In the scientific version of how the human race begins, you know, currently it sounds like it's Africa. That's where those perspectives lead us, right? But in a Hopi perspective, human life begins at the Grand Canyon. You know, this is the emergence place, this is the womb of Mother Earth. This is, this is the place that the human race begins and spreads out into the Earth. That paradigm comes from a very close, intimate relationship with the Grand Canyon to Hopi people. We refer to the Grand Canyon as Öngtupqa, which means “salt canyon”. Often hear the term paatuwaqatsi, “water is life”, and, you know, we relate to that term. In an ancient society you need to recognize also: salt is life. You know, salt is vital: to our health, as a trade commodity, you know? And there's two pristine sources of salt in the Pueblo area southwest and that’s one is Zuni Salt Lake and the other is the Grand Canyon. So the Grand Canyon becomes a very important place in intertribal relationship. And it also becomes much more than that. A place of beginnings, and also a place where the soul returns to make its journey home. So the Grand Canyon is not really looked upon as a recreational place in our culture. You know, it's looked upon as a place of very high sacred significance, but attached to that is a very strong element of fear, as well. You know, the, the spirits that occupy the Canyon, that live in the Canyon, they're important and significant in the way we interact. And how we show our respects to the great spirit is probably more expressed in our relationship to the Canyon than many other elements, you know in, in our perspective. Yeah, hard to explain, hard to explain, but I'm taking a stab. When I come to the Grand Canyon personally, this is the way I feel. You know, it's, it's a place of wonder. It's a place of fear. It's a place of reverence. You know, when I visit the Canyon, you know, first thing I want to do is speak to the river, speak to the Canyon, let everything know I'm here and that I'm coming with the good heart, you know, and of course, that does involve, you know, some introspection here. So I feel like this place rejuvenates me, though, for those reasons. ALICIA: Thank you for, for sharing. I know you, you have done a lot of songwriting, and I know you've performed solo quite a bit and also with your band, Tha ‘Yoties, which you, you talked about. I'm curious if you have a favorite piece that you perform either solo or with Tha ‘Yoties. ED: Yeah, I, you know, sometimes people would come up to buy a CD and they're like, so which one do you recommend? I'm like, yo, they're all my kids. So, you know, I don't choose one above another. And I feel it feel kind of, I feel that way. I mean, every every song is written with purpose and with feeling. And you know it, it may be appropriate for one stage of thought and not another. But I guess if I would have to like, pick out something, It's funny, but you know the the “Don’t Worry, [Be] Hopi” interpretation, which is, which is an interpretation of “Don't Worry, Be Happy”, right? I mean, Bobby McFerrin came out with that song back in 1988 and it was like instantly there was a T-shirt in Hopi at Tsakurshovi, the trading post, that said, “Don't Worry, Be Hopi", you know? And we've carried that motto, you know. It's actually a very Hopi concept. “Don't worry, be Hopi.” Hopi, my father used to say, is a compound word, hòtü, which is an arrow representing masculinity and piihu, which is a woman's breast representing femininity. And you bring those two together, you have the yin-yang, that's what it means to be Hopi. To be interconnected, to be in balance, you know? To recognize the wisdom of the feminine, to recognize the wisdom of the masculine, to live in harmony horizontally, you know, with your fellow man, with creation. And to live in harmony vertically, you know, with the history of our past in the underworlds and and above, as well, and with the great spirit, you know. So that's really what it means to be Hopi. So to say “don't worry, be Hopi”, I mean, that makes a whole lot of sense, right? I was just, I was just meditating on the song “Don't Worry, Be Hopi” and I'm like, “You know, we've had the T-shirt for a few decades now. We should probably just have a revised version of the song.” So I put together the song “Don't Worry, be Hopi”, which starts up pretty whimsical, you know. “Here's a little song you know, I changed the words to give it a cultural flow. Don't worry, be Hopi. At the beginning of time, we came into this land to leave our strife behind. Follow Maasaw’s plan. Don't worry, be Hopi.” Now that's a very deep saying right there, a deep expression to people who are Hopi. Because that's saying we're in a covenant relationship with the great spirit and, you know, we'll recognize that. The second verse says “The Castellum come in 1539”, Castellum referring to the Castilian culture of early Spain. They came in 1539. We're first contact people here. You know, the first European settlements in the United States were Florida 1565, Saint Augustine and San Gabriel, New Mexico. Those two are both 15thcentury European settlement, as opposed to Jamestown and Plymouth, you know which are 1600s, 17th century, right. But, so, the next verse introduces that history. “The Castellum they come in 1539. They tried to change our ways, but we were doing fine. We said don't worry, we'll just be Hopi.” 1680, the Pueblo Revolt, 100 years before the American Revolution, in 1680, we kicked the Catholicos out. And “Awatovi sorrow”, which is referring to the destruction of the village in Hopi of Awatovi, which was a converted village which was obliterated. And it, it's not a proud moment, you know, for us it's a sorrowful moment. But it did end significant European contact with us for the next 200 years. “1680 we kicked the Catholicos out and Awatovi sorrow proved, there was no doubt. Don't worry, be Hopi.” Finally, the last verse brings everything full circle and it says, you know. “Still today we have our trouble. The United States, they try to bust our bubble. They say, don't worry, you know, be Hopi. Peabody Coal has been full of lies. They say they don't know why our springs run dry. They say just stay in your corner of Northern Arizona and just be Hopi. You know, there's so there's the, there's the Snowbowl. There's the Grand Canyon mine. The desecration of our sites and shrines. And still they keep telling us: hey, don't worry, just be Hopi. There's so many things in this world we see, and so we cry out [Hopi], which in Hopi means “have mercy upon us”. [Hopi], which means we've all become so out of balance. We've all become so unHopi. Don't worry, be Hopi. And then the song just ends with don't worry about a thing. Bob Marley's words, because every little thing is gonna be alright and I feel like that's also true. Yeah I mean, if our focus and the trouble is on the eternal things: the rising and setting of the sun, the movement of the of the stars, the movement and cycles of the moon, the cycles of the rain. If our focus is on those things, you know, we we stay harmonious, you know? I think we need to stay alert to everything that's going crazy around us, but you know, it's very important that we stay centered and visit the Grand Canyon. ALICIA: So if people are looking to, like if listeners are looking, to hear that song or hear more of your music or learn about, you know, projects you have going on, where should they go to get more information about you or from you? ED: Yeah. So I operate with flip phone technology half the time and the other half you know, if I have Wi-Fi, then I can get on Facebook page or Instagram page and that's “Ed Kabotie” Facebook and Instagram. And there's also “Tha ‘Yoties”, Instagram and Facebook. We don't know how to spell, so Tha ‘Yoties page is like T-H-A, Tha ‘Yoties Y-O-T-I-E-S. But - Tha ‘Yoties, short for coyotes. My YouTube channel actually carries a lot of cool content, I feel like, you know? ALICIA: I agree. Yeah. ED: Long, longer presentations, you know, visuals about performances, videos, what have you. So yeah, I kind of would push people towards that. One of these days I'll try to get a web page going. Then also there is some music on Spotify from Tha ‘Yoties in particular. Yeah, we'll get some Ed Kabotie on there eventually and get some new ‘Yoties recordings on there, as well. ALICIA: Awesome, yeah, that's great, yeah. Thank you for that, that resource. That’s great. I really appreciate you sitting down and taking the time. ED: Heck yeah. ALICIA: Amazing to - to get to talk to you and hear you speak. And is there anything that we didn't touch on that you would like people to who are listening to to know about you or your work or? ED: When I give talks at the Grand Canyon, I just remind people that in Hopi culture, people are watching the cycles of the sun, are watching the cycles of the moon, and are routinely expressing prayers for the world, expressing prayers for the Grand Canyon, expressing prayers for the harmony of all life. When people come to the Grand Canyon, I hope that maybe they'll catch something from that. And that when they go home, that they'll also do the same. We're sending prayers from our home to them. And I would just ask them: do the same for us, you know? Acknowledging, you know, things that have happened in our history and things that are taking place now, you know. We're always seeking lomakatsi the good life, you know, seeking that balance. And we hope that everybody else is too. ALICIA: Thank you so much to Ed for coming out and speaking with us. We gratefully acknowledge the Native people on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant Native communities who make their homes here today. [Flute Music]