the artisan podcast

ep 40 | the artisan podcast | tracy marlowe | real branding, culture, hiring and the importance of being authentic

Tracy Marlowe | Chief Executive Officer | Creative Noggin Agency [https://www.creativenoggin.com/] You can find Tracy on Linkedin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracy-marlowe/] Together we talk about building culture, branding and hiring on the artisan podcast. Tracy Marlowe believes in the power of women.  Early in her career, Tracy worked in offices where women were often considered “less than” for juggling their careers with family matters.  In 2008, with a new infant at home, she began building Creative Noggin, a fully remote advertising agency. Her mission was to empower smart, passionate women to do work that they enjoyed while balancing their home life with the support of a family-first work environment.   Tracy firmly believes that a woman's potential knows no boundaries. Women are often underestimated yet research shows that women in business consistently outperform [https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesbusinesscouncil/2023/02/07/why-everyone-wins-with-more-women-in-leadership/?sh=77f843bb3cdd] their male counterparts. Tracy has seen that creating a culture that nurtures women benefits her organization and clients as well as the world at large because women are pivotal, influential and touch so many around them.   Tracy has over 25 years’ of expertise in marketing small and global brands, alike.  Her agency, Creative Noggin, has grown from just over $100,000 in sales the first year to upwards of seven million dollars in revenue. The agency is living proof that a flexible, human-centered workplace is not just good for employees, but also good for business.

ep38 | the artisan podcast | dr. lola gershfeld | creating connected cultures and building emotional connections at work

Dr Lola Gershfeld is the founder of EmC Leaders [https://emcleaders.com/], a training and consulting company focused on working with managers to master the art of relationships. She's also the author of The Emotional Connection, [https://emcleaders.com/emotional-connection-book/] The EmC Strategy, as well as The Connected Culture [https://emcleaders.com/connected-culture-book/], How the Art of Relationships Leads to Positive Results. Check out Dr. Lola's Youtube, [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOvRm8PIdTj2rPHr3w1iDsg]  Blog [https://emcleaders.com/blog/] as well as Podcast [https://emcleaders.com/podcasts/] for additional info -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lola: I started in the business world very young. My husband and I built three electronic manufacturing companies and so I always took the role of a leader. I served as an HR manager, and a CFO, and then,  because I was building teams and I was, really feeling confident about myself.  Then I was asked to serve on this private company board, and, I couldn't believe what I was actually experiencing. And, I remember, I think the moment for me was like sitting and watching these board members attacking each other.  And, you know, the CEO was sitting next to me and I turned to him and I said, why do they do this at every board meeting? And, he said, quietly, I think it's because they care about each other. And, and I thought to myself, what? That, that doesn't make sense. That's so silly to express care about each other like that.  But, what I really found is that they got really stuck in this pattern, the dance that they would do every board meeting. And it was really awful because, one person would shut down, the other person would attack, and then we would just go circles and circles. We would have eight-hour board meetings with no progress and imagine how exhausting that is. The funny thing is all of these people who were on the board were very smart and very intelligent and had scientific degrees and they could solve technical problems. And that was really fascinating for me how is it possible they could solve such difficult problems, but they could not talk to each other.   So, as you can imagine, I started to really look for a solution because I didn't enjoy this experience.  And, I went to the bookstore, I got these books, you know, Good to Great, [https://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Some-Companies-Others/dp/0712676090/ref=asc_df_0712676090/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693630454234&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12148388362826046950&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030951&hvtargid=pla-448425246915&psc=1&mcid=480cc90e3f6535bfa55e1c3b458a4171&gad_source=1] Primal Leadership [https://www.amazon.com/Primal-Leadership-New-Preface-Authors/dp/1633692906/ref=asc_df_1633692906/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693322190128&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15517291339998778795&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030951&hvtargid=pla-416842055241&psc=1&mcid=de6ca116ddbd3d898e42e78a1317392e&gad_source=1], Speed of Trust [https://speedoftrust.com/], all of these books were on my desk.  I was diving into them and studying them, trying to figure it out. And every time I would come to the board meeting, I would teach maybe communication skills or set some rules or boundaries, but nothing actually worked. And so I decided to go back to school and find the answer because it was really fascinating to me. And I not only saw these disruptions in the boardroom, but I saw it as an HR manager, you know, people would come to me and sit in the office and I would empathize and I would try to understand them. And guess what? A few weeks later, the same pattern comes back again. So I really wanted to understand what was happening and how is it possible. So I went back to school. I got my master's, my doctorate, but the aha moment came when my husband invited me to this workshop, couple's workshop called Hold Me Tight [https://holdmetightonline.com/]. It was created by Dr. Sue Johnson, and she's the developer of the emotionally focused therapy. Okay. I'm, I'm sitting there in this couple's workshop and I'm watching this instructor talk about attachment signs and about patterns, how these couples get into and get lost in this pattern and takes over their relationship and they just become stuck in this conflict over and over again. And I'm thinking to myself, wait a second, we have exactly the same pattern in the boardroom. Workplace conflicts are all about attachment. Workplace relationships are all about emotional disconnection.  And I cannot tell you, Katty, I, I was on fire at that time. I flew to New York. I took, you know, the externship with Susan Johnson. And from then on, I was just immersing myself in all of the science, all of the knowledge about attachment. And I was actually bringing it to the boardroom to work with boards and teams. And miraculously, things started to change. The transformation was happening right in front of my eyes. And so I decided to create tools because as I was doing the techniques, people didn't even have the language, didn't know how to express themselves. So I created tools, I created the training and then I created the certification program, which I taught at Chapman and I taught at Pepperdine University. I see that every time people use the EMC process, which is emotional connection, stands for emotional connection, I see people are happy at work, they have the tools, how to get back to connection. They're a lot more engaged and I feel like there's hope. I want people to know there's hope because I felt very helpless and hopeless in those moments. So I want people to know that there is a roadmap. There's a way to get out of conflict and you don't have to be stuck. Katty:  It's amazing because you could have easily walked away from that board. And not just made it easy on yourself, but then instead you actually leaned into that and decided, okay, there's a solution here. I don't know what it is, but I'm going to find it. And not only did you find it, but you built it from there. So pretty amazing because workplace conflict, it is such an opportunity for everyone to be able to find the tools and the language to be able to work through that, you know. We work with creatives all the time and sometimes just the disagreement on what the font should be or what the color should be. Because we're each bringing our own idea of art, of creativity to the table, just that simple thing, can blow teams apart.  To be able to have that opportunity to turn away from it and not personalize it so much is so, so important. You talked about emotional connection. Let's talk about that because, on your board, you had people who are very high on the IQ side of it, but maybe it's not so much on the EQ side of it from what you said. So what does emotional connection mean? How can we create that at work in our business? Lola: Well,  I think the first thing is obviously to recognize that when we work together, we impact each other. I mean, you just mentioned, “ it would be nice when people don't take it personally”.  It cannot be! People do take it personally because relationships are personal. And especially when we depend on each other and my survival depends on you as a manager to continue to help me to grow and develop and, and be in this world as me.  But if I don't have a connection with you, I am now a threat, right? My brain, my, my, my amygdala, the mammalian brain that we have is going to be constantly vigilant for threats because the connection, the emotional connection that I have with you is part of my survival code.  It is wired in survival. So when I don't feel connected, that's, that's so incredibly important for people to get that when we work together, all of our senses become very, very attuned to each other, to the facial expression, to the words we say, to the tone of voice. Everything is so magnified. When I have a secure connection with people, with my manager, my colleagues, and my coworkers, I feel safe. I feel safe to express my ideas. I can go out in the world and take risks. I can be open to share my mistakes. That security of our relationship gives me that safety that you're not going to abandon me. You're not going to reject me if I screw up and make a mistake. I won't be alone in that experience. You know, one of the biggest fears we have is isolation, is being alone. So our emotional brain is very attuned to that cue, to that emotional signal that we send to each other.  And when we don't have an opportunity to clarify that message, that's when we get stuck.  For example, you might be coming to work and stressed from something that happened at home.  And then, you might be walking to your desk without saying hello to everybody, or to your coworker. And then they interpret that, “Oh my gosh, Katty is upset at me. Something is wrong with me or something is wrong. She's mad. Maybe it's the thing I sent her yesterday”.  Right? So the emotional music of fear .... I see Katty is upset and that starts to perpetuate that negative thought, which starts to perpetuate the protection, which starts “When I come to the meeting, I'm going to be on guard”.  And then you are gonna say why are you not engaged?  Why are you not saying anything? Well, oh my gosh,  because we don't know how to talk about these conversations.  When we do have, that's why I think the process is so effective because it gives you a structure.  It gives you a process. It gives you a language where you can say, Hey, Katty, I got scared. You know, I'm not attacking you, but I can, I just want to clarify because I got scared.  You didn't say hello, and I was wondering, you know, is everything okay now? You don't say, Oh, you know, why are you making such a big deal? You don't respond that way. You know, they're saying, Oh, thank you for sharing that. That must be difficult for you. Of course. No, I appreciate you sharing your, your experience is valid, right? So. The first thing is when we understand how we impact each other and that it's okay for us to share that vulnerability from the impact point of view. And we know how to respond to that in emotional connection, creating safety. When we are continually creating a bond, we are creating that safe space. Saying like, “I'm still here for you.  You are important to me. I care about you”.  That continuous feedback loop gives me the confidence to come back to you again and gives me the safety next time Katty may come in and not into herself. I'm already going to have that experience saying, no, no, it's okay. Katty is just maybe having a bad day. It's not because I did something.  That is how people become more secure in their relationships. So the emotional connection process is really based on that attachment theory [https://www.simplypsychology.org/attachment.html] of John Bowlby [https://positivepsychology.com/attachment-theory/], Carl Rogers, Salvador Minuchin that really looks at the relationship and says …For us to thrive, for us to feel calm, we have to have a secure relationship. We have to have a way to create a conversation where we can gain our emotional balance back. And the fastest way to gain that emotional balance is to reach for each other. I used to go around the block all the time when I was stressed, you know, as an HR manager, like, Oh my gosh, you know, you cry, you go out, you walk around and then you calm down, but you never have that conversation to repair the connection.  So you just kind of like shove your emotions down.  And then what happens? You think that it's okay, but guess what? It accumulates and it becomes your raw spots.  And the next time somebody says something, you blow up like a blast. Exactly. You say to yourself, what happened to me?  Yeah. Why, why am I like that? So these bonding conversations that we teach people in the process, they actually not only just heal the connection, they heal relationships where people can actually get rebalanced and heal themselves from being outside in the world and being in danger of being criticized. Katty: I think we sometimes forget in the workplace, at home, with friends, we all bring our histories to the table. So a particular outburst or a particular reaction has so much more depth underneath it than that first interaction or altercation. So I think you're right. We automatically go into protect mode and we automatically go into just the stories that we start telling ourselves about why that outburst happened.  And then I get a sense that it's very easy for resentment to start building if we don't have that conversation right from the beginning. You talked about impact, that every relationship has an impact. And I know that you talk about impact and feedback and the correlation between the two of them. I wanted to get into that with you because obviously in the creative space when whenever our talent does a pitch or presents an idea, art can be very subjective. How would you suggest giving feedback, getting feedback, and just kind of what to do with that feedback,  so that its impact is a positive impact, even if the client doesn't like the direction, that it's not taken personally. It's just really about the piece of art versus, you! Lola: That's a really good question because that there's an art in itself, right? You have to kind of like maneuver those conversations and Katty, I have to again, go back to the relationships. When you are paying attention to the connection and constantly, address the attachment significance of that relationship, it will be much easier for people to process the feedback. So, in attachment terms, we know that the brain asks this key question in attachment relationships. And the question is, are you there for me,  A R E, are you there for me? So, the acronym A R E is actually expressed with, are you accessible to me emotionally?  R, are you responsive to me? E, are you engaged with me? Basically, what this means is, can I reach you? Will you be there when I need you? Will you give me your attention? So, and it comes in through in vulnerable moments. So that ARE question, when it is answered with a resounding yes, you have a secure relationship.  When the answer is a no or a maybe you have an insecure relationship. So if you answer the question, no or maybe in your relationship with a client or with a your coworker, with your employee,  and if it's no, and maybe you have to know that there is insecurity in the relationship. Number one, you have to know that. So you have to learn how to balance yourself, which means you have to learn about your triggers and your raw spots and emotions. So when you go through the process, you learn all of these tools and all of becoming more self-aware, what is happening for you? So you come into that conversation more balanced. And when you share the feedback or impact, I like to say share impact, don't share feedback. What does it mean to you? How does this work impact you?  Because that comes from a vulnerable place, that comes from a place where they didn't do anything wrong, right? It removes the judgment, it removes the disappointment, it removes the shame effect. It gives them the impact, saying, look, this is how it impacts me.  It's nothing that you did anything wrong because you have to constantly reassure them that there is a connection, that you care about them, that they're important to you, and that their feelings are valid. I'll give you an example. My daughter called me yesterday, and she's 40. Okay, she's 40 years old. She calls me, and she says, Mom!  I was sharing with you the day before something that I did, and you said something. You said, Oh, you need to be consistent in this.  And when you said you need to be consistent in this, that really hurt me. And what I did is I grabbed my form, you know, the EMC reconnection form, and I'm, because my emotions start to escalate. So I'm losing my balance. I'm grabbing my form so I can just follow it and be in emotionally responsive to her.  I want to be able to sit with her space and hold her space. And the form helps me to do that. So I'm saying, okay, so the raw spot that hit for you in that moment is like you being judged. Yes, mom, that's it. Now she knows the process, she knows the language, so it's easier. And so it made you feel like you were hurt. Yes, I was very hurt and I felt defeated, she said, and I felt very surprised and ashamed when you said. Oh, and what is that image?  Oh, it felt like you were stabbing me in my heart.  All right. And look at the impact it's having on her, right? And like, wow, my gosh. And where do you feel it in your body? Is it in your heart? No, it's in my stomach. Oh, stomach. Wow. That tells me that there's a shame piece happening because we know the bodily sensation and the emotion behind that.  And then what's the worst fear for you? Oh, I will never be good enough.  No matter what I do, I'll be never good enough.  Oh my gosh. And what's the fear about me as your mom, or you will never be proud of me?  Wow, that makes sense. Wow. You're so strong and courageous. Now I'm going through the form and I'm telling you the answer and the questions are there.  And so what do you do? What are your thoughts? Oh, I'm thinking I'm going to have to prove to her that I am good enough. I'm not going to eat. I'm not going to sleep. I'm just going to work and work and work to show her.  Oh, that makes sense. Wow. That, that, that's so hard. Your feelings are valid. And what do you need? I need to know mom that I am good enough just the way I am.  You are good enough. You're good enough just the way you are. it took us about 15 minutes to have this conversation and it healed her, it connected back, it gave that reassurance that I love her. I care about her. She was enough courageous. She felt safe enough to share those vulnerabilities with me. And now we move on.  Katty: So how do you do that at work where maybe in someone's mind there is an imbalance?  Because somebody is somebody's boss or a client is paying your invoices. And it's not necessarily a friendship, or a, you know, or a personal relationship, but you're trying to stay in a professional relationship. But you're still trying to minimize that imbalance. How would you go about that?  Because I could see in scenarios where maybe a marketing campaign was rejected by a client.  And the talent would take it personally. How would they even be able to come back to someone who's their client or their boss and be able to mend those fences or at least take away the personal hurt from it. Lola: Well, we, we have to process the emotions in order for you to heal that hurt. In order for people to speak that language of emotional connection. They have to know what are the steps. It's like dancing right in dancing tango. For example, I love Argentine tango. And so when I started to learn, you just learned the steps first. So, you learn the steps, but then you learn the music. For example, with my coworkers, every time I bring a new coworker, I give them training. You know, we're going to learn this, but this is a process where we share emotions. So when you have a client that is, for example, rejected your work and you feel out of balance in that way, you come to each other. You come to each other and say, hey, this was so hard for me. This was really rejecting and here's my raw spot that hit for me. And here's some emotions that, that was, was I felt, and here's my body sensation, here's my image, and here's my fear, and this is what I start to think, and this is what I start to do when I have those emotions. And this is what I need. Now, when we come together, imagine team members and managers and can come together to each other, how it changes their relationship, how much stronger they become as a team.  And it's slowly, slowly, they feel much more comfortable. They can trust each other more.  I cannot tell you the number of companies that have called me and said, we are so happy we learned this process before COVID.  During COVID we were able to still stay away from each other, but be emotionally connected because we have the tools. We could speak a language of emotions, we can identify emotions.  Emotions are the most important thing in conflict or in any disconnection.  Lisa Feldman Barrett, she said that the more granular you can make emotion, the less overwhelmed you are.  So as you organize, this is what the process is. You organize your experience, and emotional experience gives you that structure.  So the more there's surface emotion and softer emotions and primary emotions and the image and fears and body senses, all of that gives you relaxation. All of that gives you a sense of I'm not alone in that experience.  And when I'm not alone in that experience, my prefrontal cortex opens up because my amygdala relaxes. Now I can see options. I can see that the client didn't reject me. So all of that cognition starts to be more accessible to us when our emotional brain is at rest.  But we cannot, we cannot tell ourselves, Oh, don't worry about it. Just relax. No, because you have to address the emotions and you have to talk about it. And you have to know that the other person is not going to turn away from you when you open up and say, I was so hurt.  I was so hurt. It's okay. It's okay that you're hurt. Thank you for sharing that you're hurt. You're so strong and courageous. We're here with you. You're not alone in this.  These are powerful, powerful words. I can't wait to hear that. Katty: Well, it's really creating the space where people can step into it and have a, and feel confident and safe enough to have that conversation.  Lola: Oh my gosh. And Katty, people blossom.  They blossom once they know that they're not alone. They, they, they have all this motivation. You know, companies create benefits and perks to motivate people, but I think they're missing the mark. You don't need to spend thousands and millions of dollars to give free lunches and free, you know, whatever cleaner service and massage service fitness, no, you have to be emotionally connected, you know.  Teach that, learn that and you're going to be great.  Your people are going to be flying and thriving in the workplace.  Katty: Yeah. It's very interesting. I think to go back and take a look at where every member of the team falls on that emotional intelligence or emotional connection spectrum, some are probably easier to lean into it and for some, it's really something that has to be taught and practiced over and over and over again, because it doesn't naturally, or, or maybe just previous hurts is going to put up a protection for them.  But to be, to be able to really pull that team together to kind of use your own words, bringing, you know, pulling the team together versus pulling them apart. Some of these tools to be able to utilize that is, is powerful. You take us through, some specific language in terms of what it is, and how we approach a conversation. You've shared some of that already. What if it doesn't land, at what point is our responsibility? Let's say I come to you and I share with you a hurt or that something happened.  And if there's no responsiveness on your part, what is then my responsibility there?  Where do I go back to you or what do I do at that point?  I stepped forth to resolve the conflict and to make sure that the relationship could be repaired. But if it's not reciprocal, what do we do?  Lola: It's hard, right? It's, it's very hard. The thing is we still have to work with that person. So, it's very important for us to first of all, maybe find somebody else who can process emotions with you and can be there for you. So you can come back to the person. You definitely need to come back, and you need to come back in a safe way. I mean, obviously, when the person doesn't respond to you, not because they don't want to connect with you, because they feel overwhelmed. So, it's hard for us to empathize with that, when we are out of balance.  So that's why I say that if the person is not available, you do the process with somebody else, get your balance, get you feeling heard. And so you don't feel alone. So you can come back and say, look, our relationship is important to us. This is what we call bonding conversations, right? You create additional safety, you know, in your mind, you know, cognitively that when people work together, they want to be connected because of the dependency. Because our brain turns on these bonding needs and we want to be, we long for that connection. So we start to give space to the other person and say, I know it's uncomfortable for you, but you are important to me. You're important to this team. You're important to our success. Now, my tone of voice is calm.  Right? My facial expression is calm. That's because I'm not activated. When I'm triggered and I'm activated, my facial expression is, expression is stressed. My tone of voice is like pointy and it's very difficult for the other person to hear that congruency that I really care about you. I'm attacking you and you really care about me? No way. So we need to first of all, I recognize that we get into these patterns, what we call a negative cycle. And that's one of the very important things, people learn in the process is to recognize when is that cycle starts.  Like for example, the most common cycle is what we call pursue, withdraw, you know, when, when one person, for example, starts losing that connection and doesn't know how to talk about it.  So what they do, is they start to come across as critical.  So they push for connection, right? But it's actually that protesting the disconnection. So what we do is “Why are you not talking to me? Why are you not responding to me? It's like, right, what's going on? What, what's happening?” And so the other person then tries to defend themselves and then they shut down. So you have a pursuer who's pursuing and then you have a shutdown person who is withdrawing and avoiding, and so that's the cycle. So when you start to recognize that you can come back and say, look, we got stuck in the cycle.  You know, it's not your fault, it's not my fault, it's the cycle's fault.  And then you start to create safety for that conversation. Look, I want to know what happened to you. I can tell you what happened to me.  And then we can be there for each other. That's the fastest way is when we reach for each other and we can get out of that negative cycle.  So that's A R E, are you there for me? is we are practicing how to be accessible, responsive and engaged emotionally. All emotional variables. Katty: Being emotionally connected versus being defensive.  So, so how do you go about if in a situation where you may have a large team,  and there are some people on the team that you connect with right away and you're friends and you go after work and you go for drinks and you go for dinner, and then there are other people on the team that you just don't have that friendship, you're coworkers, you're not friends. And there are some relationships that, that cross from just being coworkers to actually having friendships develop as well. How do you navigate then not letting, not, isolating someone because you're not inviting them to your after work gatherings? Where's the fine line of being co-workers and then suddenly becoming friends?  Lola: Yes. Katty, that's a very tough question. Make that as a habit for your team to talk about emotions. To talk about the raw spots because when you have that opportunity on a regular basis, you know, let's talk about the triggers.  Who got triggered last week and what are the triggers? What are some of the raw spots? What are the emotions? You start to actually learn about people.  You start to open up like people have never heard of you. I remember doing this, session, with the CFO and a manager and the manager got very stressed because the CFO would attack her in meetings and shows the manager stopped talking to her completely.  And so the more she stopped talking to her, the more the CFO got anxious and upset. So she became really, really like very aggressive towards her. So the manager went around, went to the HR department, and filed the complaint. Well, the CFO was so, she was so devastated. She couldn't sleep at night, she was just terrified that she was going to lose a job and she was going to have this on her record.  Well, the company called me and I did the reconnection session for them.  And during the session, the manager did not want to share her emotions first in front of the CFO. She was like protection and I said, I get it. It makes sense of course you would not be able to share. It's not safe for you. Can you just say that?  “I'm scared to share. I don't feel safe to share my emotions”.  This is a first step to just acknowledge what is happening with you right now. “I can't trust you”. Right? That's, that's a good place to start. When the CFO shared what happened to her when the manager filed a complaint, how she couldn't sleep, how she couldn't eat, she could, she was devastated.  The manager opened up. The manager said, I had no idea it had an impact like that. You were so aggressive towards me, I thought you like you have no human emotion.  So as you have these practices of conversations where people have this language and when they share, they need to know, they need to respond. And I, we teach that how to respond, you know, to keep saying, thank you for sharing. You're so courageous and strong because in the workplace, it's not customary to share vulnerability and emotions. We say, you know, be vulnerable, be vulnerable.  No, if I'm going to share my vulnerability, people are going to look at me and just walk away. No, we have to learn how to say thank you for sharing. That must be so difficult for you.  You're so courageous and strong.  And then when they share, they feel accepted.  They feel connected. They learn about each other. They start to feel like, wow, my manager has actual emotions. I had no idea. You become human, right? Yeah, we become human. And now we have a whole new way of looking at each other. I mean, I can literally show you in the process. of where each person starts to see each other differently and where the cycle starts and how it ends. When I do sessions, like I'm, I have a hundred percent confidence in me that I know exactly how to get people back to connection because I use an attachment framework roadmap. It never let me down ever.  So I feel like managers need to learn this, this structure, that attachment significance, because then it will only make them a lot more effective..    But we have to catch those moments. We have to pay attention to those moments. And we have to feel confident. We know what we're doing in those moments.  Katty: Those are powerful words. You're so strong. You're so courageous. Yeah.  So how do we catch ourselves when we're being triggered? Lola: Oh, it's so hard, Katty, because the emotion is so fast,  boom, boom, boom, and you are in the cycle. Katty: Yeah. I was saying something you mentioned was like our, with our teams. They can see our expressions. They know, like, our, you know, our face maybe says a thousand words.  How do we, as managers, how are we, how do we become, without having gone through the training, how can we become more cognizant of what our body language is portraying? Maybe I'm using the right words, but you know, my face is just negative, you know, giving,  giving feedback with this. How, how do we catch ourselves, from those triggers? Obviously, like without, without going through the training, for the person listening here and they're like, gosh, these words really are impacting me. I need to be mindful of when I fly off the handle,  how do I calm myself down? Because you said you go, you used to go around the block as an HR manager, where you went for a walk and you'd come back. Lola: Yeah, but that was not effective. It was, it only worked for a day, Katty.  No, what's effective is to learn how to have these conversations.  In order for people to understand how they impact each other, they have to hear it from other people. They have to have these bonding conversations to know that this is what happens. This is what, what you do that impacts me, and this is what I do that impacts you. That's, we all do that, but we get stuck in that the more we don't know how to talk about our emotions, how to reach for each other, how to talk about our fears and needs. We have, that's a responsibility, I feel this is a biggest responsibility for us is to learn about our emotional experience.  To learn how to recognize and articulate that fear and how to  know what is it that we need.  We have to learn how to ask for that need. And sometimes people will not be there to give us that need. And it's okay. I mean, I remember having a conversation with my husband, you know, and I said, I need to know that it's not my fault. I didn't do anything wrong and he would say,  I cannot tell you that, but I can tell you I love you.  I said, no, I need to know that it's not my fault. And he said, I can't tell you, but it took him time, right? And now he can say, it's not your fault. He recognizes it's the cycle's fault. We both got off. Okay? It's the cycle's fault. It's the cycle's fault. It's the cycle's fault. Katty: I think a great place for people to start is to pick up a copy of your book.  Because I think in here,  you have some really good tips about not saying it this way. Instead, reframing it and rephrasing it and saying it that way. And just giving some tools to people. Where else can people go to find you, Lola? And just learn a little bit more about ARE and conflict and the tools that you bring to the table. Lola: Yeah, they can go to emcleaders. com And we have a master class that actually live sessions the master class live sessions.  So that's a that's a great way tolearn we have online courses. We have a book We have a youtube. I have a youtube channel on emc leaders podcast, obviously. It takes time for people to understand this process, to learn this process, but once you have the tools, it's like you have a new world in front of you. It's like,  Have you done zipline, Katty? Mm, yeah. You know, on a zipline, when somebody straps you in, you feel secure and you can go through the chasm and say, like, whoo,  you know, you can see the world, you can pay attention, right, to the whole beautiful thing. Well, that's the same thing with secure relationships. When, when our buckle is not secure, we are very scared. We can't grow, and that's what I see, especially with When people become more connected with each other, when they have this opportunity, you don't have to do these bonding conversations all the time. Once you kind of heal your raw spots that happened in that relationship, you start to become more and more secure in that relationship. We are in relationships. We grow in relationships. If we take one person out of that relationship and say, well, this person is behaving themselves badly. Well, of course, they are, you just took them out of the relationship. You have to always look at the relationship. Relationships are key for us. And if there's anything wrong, performance, motivation, productivity,  you know, whatever, absenteeism, turnover…Relationship, always start with a relationship because that is the key.  So I welcome people to reach out and to explore. We have tons of resources and we're here for you to learn and discover yourself and others. Katty: Beautiful. It's really like learning a new language. Yes. Once you've learned it, then you can actually communicate it.    Lola: Yes, exactly Katty. And then your life becomes fulfilled because connection is what we want. Links: EMC Leaders [https://emcleaders.com/],  The Emotional Connection, [https://emcleaders.com/emotional-connection-book/]  The Connected Culture [https://emcleaders.com/connected-culture-book/],  Check out Dr. Lola's Youtube, [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOvRm8PIdTj2rPHr3w1iDsg]  Blog [https://emcleaders.com/blog/] as well as Podcast [https://emcleaders.com/podcasts/] for additional info ---------------------------------------------------------------------------  The artisan podcast is brought to you by the good people at artisan creative, a digital creative and marketing recruitment firm with over 25 years of experience, placing freelance and full time talent across multiple verticals. We look forward to meeting you learn more at artisancreative. com.

ep37 | the artisan podcast | will greenblatt | transform your public speaking and master that interview

Will Greenblatt shares key public speaking techniques to transform your interview, pitch, or presentation.    Find out more by following Will on LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/willgreenblatt/] ----------------------------- I'm so excited to welcome Will Greenblatt [https://www.linkedin.com/in/willgreenblatt/] to this call today. He is the co-founder of the Outloud Speaker School [https://www.outloudnow.com/], an agency of actors who teach public speaking and communication skills to entrepreneurs, executives, and to candidates. He has repeatedly spoken at Google, Wayfair, and Boston Dynamics, to just name a few, and has provided coaching to over 4, 500 individuals virtually worldwide.  His clients have won numerous pitch competitions and raised capital by honing in and raising their skills in publc speaking and pitching. He's here to talk to us about how we can do that in an interview process, how we can do that when we're pitching new clients or pitching new projects.  And brings all of that with the experience that he has gained as an actor. He started acting when was seven years old. He speaks five languages including Mandarin Chinese and learning Urdu in the process. So with that, so excited to introduce Will and take our conversation to the next level. Katty: I met Will a number of years ago. I'm part of an organization called EO, the Entrepreneurs Organization [https://hub.eonetwork.org/], and Will came in to teach us all facilitators how to be better public speakers, how to facilitate meetings better, and how to really hone our presentation skills. Will: Yeah, it's really nice and I love what you've been doing all the stuff I get on Linkedin you know following you because we haven't actually spoken in so long, but the power of the personal branding, the telling your story, getting your message out there makes me feel like I've kept up with you in a way. Katty:. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yes. The power of social media and how we show up and how we represent ourselves on it is powerful.  Let's just jump in and talk about it. I know you speak with executives, with corporate teams and talk about how to represent themselves, how to present themselves, how to, be a strong public speaker as well as for pitch competitions and how to promote themselves that way. So obviously the audience that we're speaking to here today are the creatives and the talent that we work with who on a regular basis have to pitch. They have to pitch their portfolio, they have to really pitch their creative thinking when they're presenting clients with ideas and where they're presenting options. So I really wanted to jump into that. I know your acting background has been a huge force in kind of what you've developed, but why don't we start from the beginning and bring us to where we are currently today from your career trajectory?  Will: Yeah, the good thing is I just told this story on a stage as part of a public speaking competition two nights ago or three nights ago. So I have a handy, short, and condensed version. One of the biggest tips I always have with people is to tell your story with less, fewer words, right? So many people want to throw everything about what they're thinking, whether for it's a pitch or a presentation or just telling a story, they give too much detail. So I'm going to try to do, take my own advice and give the shortened version.  When I was seven years old, I started acting in film and TV.  My family were actors, so I fell into the business kind of through them. And I acted all the way through my childhood, through teenage years, through high school, and I thought, okay, I'm going to go to theatre school. I went to National Theatre School of Canada. I thought I'm going to get my conservatory training, and I'm just going to go to Hollywood, and that's going to be my life.  And my brother passed away when I was 17, and it threw my life off course, I was like really grief-stricken and I didn't know what to do with myself. And so when I went to theater school after that happened, I just wasn't in a good place mentally and I realized I didn't want to be an actor. So I ran away from home searching for something like what I was going to do with my life. And I discovered teaching in Spain. I taught English for a year and a half. And then my first startup was in China. I knew some other English teachers, we started an English education company in Hangzhou, China. So then I discovered entrepreneurship and the long story short is that I came back to Canada and was like, okay, I've got acting, teaching, entrepreneurship. And then I realized, okay, if I use the acting & teaching background, I can teach entrepreneurs and other creatives and business people to tell their story with the kind of skills that I've been honing my whole life, really, since I was seven. So that's the abridged version of the whole story. So it's an acting and teaching background, and then a focus on entrepreneurship, which is about how do you talk about problems, solutions and prizes. And all public speakers can benefit from that entrepreneurial mindset of somebody has a problem, you've got the solution, and then you have to sell the story of the vision, the prize. We'll get into that later in the storytelling frameworks. I think for your audience, the creatives, it's really important that they don't just think of themselves as a certain type of person. Still, they embrace the role of a storyteller, a salesperson, an entrepreneur, or an intrapreneur, if they're working at a company. This idea that they've got to get people to buy in with the way they talk with their words, with the power of their speaking voice and their story and their personal story. Katty: Yeah. So let's talk about that. Because as you're telling your abridged version of your story, just from a visual perspective, as I'm looking at you, you're taking over the whole screen, like you are animated, your energy is coming through, your enthusiasm about what's coming through, what you talk about is coming through. So let's just talk about that. Because so much of our communication in our world now is through digital media and Zoom and Teams and so forth. How can we use this space as our stage to really present ourselves best?  Will: The easy answer is you can actually look at the little box where you're showing up and see what that looks like. And so I have an extra light here. I don't know if it'll show on camera, but you can probably see it moving around on my face. So I made sure to set that up beforehand just to give me a bit more light. I've sat in front of windows. I'm making sure that I'm in the center and that my head is barely touching the top so you can see my shoulders You know too many people look like this on the screen. And if you can't see me if you're listening to this I've slouched down. You know that some basic framing things some lighting things, some audio things.  I'm speaking into a decent mic for this as well, which is really important. Those technical things are important. And then, it's the same concept as speaking in any situation, really, but it's how committed you are to your topic, and can we see, hear, and feel that with the way you're talking? So one thing I know is that I care about my message enough to not worry if people think I'm cool and laid back. I don't do that because I'm so much more interested in my message getting out there than I am in what people think of me as a person.  I know that if I put effort into being clear, and excited, and enthusiastic and showcase my passion, I have a better chance of people receiving my message and receiving it positively and remembering it. So you know, in this space, you can work on the technical side of things, but just remember why you're passionate about what you're doing and then let people see that.  It's not as easy as that, but that's the idea. That's what you want to commit to and not try to hide and be humble, be too quiet, be too laid back. But you have to find a way to show that you are passionate. And if people don't feel your passion, they don't feel your commitment, they don't feel your energy, they will write you off very quickly. And it's such a shame because these are brilliant, talented people who have a lot to offer. And then they open their mouths and people go, eh,  it's a shame.  Katty: Yeah. You have to be able to sell yourself and sell your creativity, sell your ideas, sell your strategic thinking, whatever the job is that it that's being required. But it's interesting what you're saying. One of our core values at Artisan [https://www.artisancreative.com/core-values/] is enthusiasm in life and work. So your whole body language exemplifies that body language speaks volumes. So if you are not enthusiastic, not just with the words that you're using, but how your body presents then that's going to come through, passion. You use the word passion. I'm using enthusiasm, but they're really like the love of what you do and how you're going to get it out there. Will: So what I try to teach is just being aware of that and starting to like intentionally choose how you want to be. And it's not about being fake, but it's about reminding yourself, giving yourself permission, allowing yourself to show your passion rather than squishing it down, which we too often do. Katty: Yeah. Actually, what comes to mind as we're talking is when we're receiving feedback about our work. The pitch is happening, your presentations is happening and maybe the client says, "oh, I don't like that color or oh, that's not what I was thinking" …how to keep ourselves from retracting and still be able to present a counter in a positive way to be able to win them over versus just totally losing it. Will: Yeah, or being defensive which I saw on stage at a tech festival in Toronto a couple of days ago. A founder was asked a question and he just got really defensive. It was a very reasonable question and his answer was reasonable, but he thought he was being attacked even though I didn't feel that way from the question. The investor said something like, how are you going to make money? And he went, "It's very common to take a 20 percent fee. And we're going to take that 20 percent fee!"  But he didn't need to be that defensive. He could have just said,  "That's a great question. We take a 20 percent fee."  Done. Katty: How do we control our emotions when we're triggered like that? What are some techniques?  Will: The best one is breathing into your belly. I get a really bad stage fright. So when I've been an actor, this was the way I allowed myself to go on stage without having panic attacks before opening night. And when you're nervous, you stop breathing deeply into your belly and you start breathing, hyperventilating shallowly into your chest, and then of course that makes it work worse because you're getting less oxygen your brain thinks you're fighting and it's a whole vicious downward spiral.  So if you just stop that at the source, and intentionally breathe deeply into your belly  (Breathe In) and then out (Breathe Out), even just doing that once my voice is slowing down now and getting deeper because it just has an instant calming effect. And if you keep remembering to do that throughout and just training yourself to start to look for those and be aware of those moments when you feel Triggered or as my therapist would say Activated which I think is a great. It's not always bad being activated. It can be useful, but in general, we don't speak our best when we're activated, and definitely not when we're triggered. When our emotions get the better of us, we're reacting instinctively, we’re not thinking through how we want to speak. And then yeah, we're probably more likely to show anger, defensiveness, fear.  So yeah, breathing into the belly is really important, and you can do it without showing people you're taking deep breaths. People are always like, oh, how do I?  But then won't it look like I'm nervous if I'm breathing deeply? It's you just listen. And somebody asks you a question, you just go "Yeah, that's a really good question", and you breathe as you're thinking and answering it, and you have a lot of time to do that, you don't have to jump right in with an answer, but just, “Yeah, that's a great question”, and you can stall with a phrase like that to give yourself time and then go into it. Katty: I can see that being so powerful in an interview. We have a candidate who is getting ready to meet with a hiring manager. And sometimes I think there's a pressure, especially if you have a half hour for that interview, there's a pressure to get in as much as you can during that time. So patience with, and just slowing down our conversation is sometimes not top of mind, but what you're saying is actually forcing the conversation to just, sit. Will:  Yeah, a question I like to ask a lot for this specific example is, how would I talk to this person if I didn't want anything from them? Because so often when we're in these high-pressure situations, we're trying to get a sale, we're trying to have somebody approve of something, of a request or a work. We want something from our audience members. There's a power imbalance, but it also tends to make us a bit needy, and a bit on edge, and we want something so badly from the person. But it makes us change the way we really talk, and it makes us change our energy.  And, the power of this question is you go, what would I say? So Katty, we're talking right now. Neither of us is trying to sell anything to each other. We're just having a conversation because we're both interested in the same topic. And so you and I, there's no power imbalance. There's no problem. There's no fighting or jostling for position. We're just enjoying the conversation but we know we have an audience. So we're still trying to be clear and interesting to listen to and interesting to watch, which is, I call this thing Authentic Stage Presence. It's this term I like to use a lot. It's like, how can you be interesting to watch and listen to, but also as real and natural as possible, like you're hanging out with your friends at a bar or in a cafe or in a living room.  And so you want to think about that when you're in an interview or in a pitch or presentation. It's like you want something from this person. But if you didn't, what would your voice sound like?  How fast would you talk? How loud would you talk? Would you smile? Would you make a joke in this moment? Do that.  If you do that, it puts you at ease. It puts them at ease. And it feels much less like a transactional conversation. And those transactional conversations, when they're, when they don't feel that way normally go so much better because the person just feels like it's a real human conversation.  And yeah, any pitch, anything where you're trying to convince another person and you inherently want something from them, try to just pretend you don't and think about how you would communicate in that situation. Katty: Pretend that you don't, but still infuse the passion and the energy in that conversation. So they know that you want it, but you're not nervous about it. Will: Exactly. It's about showcasing your passion because that's what you do all the time. So I'm a big proponent also of you want to try to be consistent with the way you talk. So many of us have a different voice with our friends, with our family members, with our work colleagues, with our we have all these different personalities. It's like a collage of different magazines that I'm just pasting together and I don't feel like a real person.  So I was just like, okay, what is my voice and I started really trying to work on that and make it as, as consistent as possible, obviously, it's going to be a bit different. I'm not going to talk to my best friend the way I'm talking on a podcast. But the difference for me now is a lot less because I've really worked hard on finding my voice. That's my advice too, is find something you're passionate about it and whenever you talk about it, whether it's to your best friend, your mom, your partner, or the CEO of the biggest company on the biggest moment of your life.  Speak the same way.  All this stuff is normal. We're human beings who have evolved to communicate with each other in different ways. And so everything we're doing is just human. But it's just becoming aware of those things that we're doing and saying what of those are going to be, are going to serve me really well in my career, and my ways of communication? What is not making me feel so good about myself or getting me what I want? So it's choosing a bit more intentional ways to be both real but also showcasing your intelligence and your passion. Katty: Love it. Thank you I remember when we had met some years back you, you had a framework or a methodology, but maybe that's the, maybe that is the right word for it, that you really talked to the audience about  your tone, your pitch, your volume, like all of those things going to make, can make or break whatever it is that you're trying to communicate. Do you mind to talk to us a little bit to take us through that?  Will: 100%. I call that the Speech Settings. There's five vocal speech settings that I like to look at, and two physical body language ones. The five vocal ones are volume, pitch, pace, clarity, and inflection.  And just to make sure everybody knows these terms, volume is how loud or how soft you are.  Pitch is the high or the low of your voice. The pace is how quickly you're talking or how slow. The clarity is the how clearly you're enunciating or how much you're mumbling. And the inflection is like the pitch, but it's how much it moves. So how much does your voice go up and down or how much does it just stay the same? And so all of these have a zero, which is like the lowest they can be and a 10, which is the highest they can be. So, what I always show to people is I show this image and it looks like a DJ's mixing board, with those little sliders that go up and down. And I just say just like a DJ or an audio engineer, you can adjust any single component of the sound or the image, in the case of the physical ones at any time.  And it makes a big difference. So often when I'm working with people, especially in a group setting, I'll say, give me your pitch and they'll give me their pitch or their presentation. I said, that was great. Now, everybody, where do you think their volume was at? And the person maybe is a really quiet talker.  And they'll be, people will be like, three, four, and I'll be like, yeah it's a little low. So I'll say, okay, what I want you to do is try it at an eight or a nine. And the person always goes, no, I couldn't do that possibly, because they've lived a whole life,  being quiet.  Just try. And then eventually they get there and they declare their pitch in this loud volume and they are a completely different person.  And the whole crowd goes, Whoa, because it's crazy to watch this one little thing. And just to add the two body language ones, those are physical expression, which is your arms and your body, and then facial expression. And then the last one sometimes I don't always talk about, especially when we're on Zoom, is groundedness, and that's how well you stay, that's how well your feet are connected to the floor versus like shuffling around and pacing nervously and stuff. And the point is to become aware of these things and not get stuck in any of them and think, Oh, I should speak at a seven for volume. People say, what's a good volume that I should speak at? There's no such thing.   What do you want to do with your words? Do you want to scare someone?  Yell at them. Scream at the top of your lungs. Or do you want to stop your dog before they run onto the road and chase the ball? Use a high volume.  Do you want to comfort your child because they're really scared and they've had a nightmare? Don't shout at them.  Use a low volume. You know what I mean? We know this stuff instinctively in other areas of our lives. When we're talking about family or friends, we do this stuff naturally. What I'm advocating for is that, you take that wisdom that we all have as human beings. Some of us are better at it than others.  But we just be more intentional about it, especially when we're on stage, and say, Okay, I want to get this audience excited, I can be a bit louder. Okay, I want to warn this audience about something, I can slow down and get a bit serious on my face. Whatever that intention is of what we want to do with our words, we just we are able to adjust the speech settings to achieve those objectives. And that takes a while, but it's amazing how much can be done just by starting to play with those. Katty: How would you make that adjustment in an interview setting? I guess where you're sitting your room, the space that you're at. Like you have to really be paying attention to the physical environment, and your proximity to the interviewer, if it's an in-person one.  That physicality probably has to play into that. Will: When I was in China doing my first startup, one of my co-founders and I did a double pitch like we were pitching our thing to a potential customer. It was like the biggest pitch we'd had so far. And we were in this boardroom. The thing is when we had practiced it, we had practiced it in our apartment, which was actually bigger than the boardroom we were in randomly. And my co-founder had practiced it as a sort of theatrical kind of presentation, but then at the last second, they put us into the small boardroom and we were just sitting across the table from these potential customers.  And I think because of my acting background, I was able to adjust without even thinking about it. And so we had our laptop, we didn't even have the projector, we were just showing them our presentation on a laptop instead of on the projector. So it was much more intimate. And I was like, yeah, so this is what we're doing. And then it was my co-founder's turn, and I think because he was nervous, he was like yelling.  And I didn't know how to stop him and I didn't know what to do. It was fine. It was, a bit awkward, but he was really speaking way too loudly. And I think because he had practiced it in a certain way, he wasn't ready for the curve ball and it just, it wasn't the right volume. He didn't adjust his volume for the, as exactly as you said, the physicality, the proximity, the environment. And so paying attention to that is, is really important. And then also switching up in the middle of your presentation or your talk let's say, you want to tell a quick story in an interview, you mentioned an interview, right? You want to tell a quick story, they always ask you this question, what's the time you overcame a difficulty?  So a good way to do that is to say here was the problem, here was the difficulty, and then I found the solution. So the first half of that story is bad.  It was a problem. It was scary.  It was hard. You want to show that kind of the difficulty of it.  You don't want to be like, yeah, it was really tough. You want to show how tough that situation was. So you might have a different inflection to your voice when you're talking about a problem where you're saying it was really bad. We had lost $10, 000 worth of inventory. I was on the hook for all of it. My coworker was freaking out. I didn't know what to do. And then you've discovered the solution. And your voice can change.  And we figured out what we wanted to do. And then you can smile, and your voice can drop down or can go up and get excited. However you want to do it, there's no right way.  But you shouldn't tell the whole story in the same tone of voice, volume, pace, pitch, facial expression. Because it's not appropriate for the message being conveyed.   So  you want to not only pay attention to the environment, but also what am I actually saying? Exactly. We need variety. We know we need to listen to variety if we're listening to a speaker or if we're talking to somebody, if it's the same tone, we just get bored and nod off. No matter how interesting the tone is, if you hear the same thing over and over again you're done. Katty: I'm flipping the script here, not as the interviewee, but as the interviewer. The recognition that the interviewee may be nervous or scared or overwhelmed or in awe of you and the company and like all of that. I could see that even from an interviewer's perspective, how changing your tone can help somebody just be put somebody at ease or calm them down versus these are the facts of the job. This is what you need to do. And that could totally freak somebody out. So the kind of the back and forth between two people, like that's, I'm seeing, I'm hearing the power of the voice in this thing, right? Let's talk about body language real quick. I think the piece that people miss a lot in body language, they, we've listened to words, but maybe not necessarily to what somebody is saying non-verbally. And we're communicating oftentimes on a WhatsApp, on the Slack channel, on email, we're not even seeing each other or on social media, How do we take what you've talked about so beautifully and translate that into when we're not having the body language component? Will: If I understand your question, are you saying how do we communicate better in our writing with each other when we don't have access to body language? Katty: Yeah. When we're not seeing each other, for example, we're on the Zoom, but the camera's off.  Will: So I would make a distinction between those two forms of communication, audio and writing.  With audio, yes, it's very important that your tone of voice does some heavy lifting that where your face and your body language can't. If you're on the phone, if you're cold calling people if you are catching up with somebody over the phone, or if you're on Zoom and your camera's off you want to be a bit, you want to be even more expressive. But again, I want to bring it back to this idea that the way you talk about yourself and your work, it's by default, you are slow, clear, excited, not slow, but, slow enough to be understood and you pause after important information. You develop this way of talking about yourself and your business, where no matter who it is, no matter what it is, you can access that kind of passion and clarity at a moment's notice, because it's just you've trained it into yourself and it's real, it's, you care about what you do. But also I would say for audio, we'll stick with the audio first. Okay, imagine that people can see you.  So if I turn my video off right now, you can't see me anymore, right?  But I'm still using my hands to gesture while I'm talking to you, in the way that I would. Like I'm still gesticulating the same way that I would when I'm on video.  Because I know that's going to help my voice. And I know if I'm sitting up nicely and in the way I would want to be seen, that's also going to help my voice. And then of course, if I turn my video off, but I'm slouching down like this, it's way harder to access that excited voice, it doesn't match our body. Okay. I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here, but please indulge me. You mentioned the 55 percent of our rule that comes from something called the Mehrabian model, which Albert Mehrabian [https://www.psych.ucla.edu/faculty-page/mehrab/], who is from Iran, he came to Canada, I believe, or the U. S. I can't remember, he was a psychologist who specialized in communication, and he's the one who people take that number from, that 55 percent of communication is body language, 37 is tone of voice, or 35 is tone of voice, 38 something, and then 7 is words. But I think he himself has spent his entire career trying to say that's not right, don't believe that because it was a really specific experiment that doesn't translate to real life and he said that very clearly. But a concept that he should be famous for.  And I wrote about this in my book because I think it's such a shame.  He came up with this term called Congruence. The key to trusting a speaker is when they speak in congruence. Congruence means your words, your tone of voice, and your body language and facial expressions all match.  When your voice is telling that you're excited, and your words are saying you're excited, and your facial expression and your body language are all telling the same story, people go, oh, I believe you. And then when you say something like, I'm really excited to be here,  people go, I don't believe you. I don't trust you. And whether or not they think that consciously, it just, it erodes trust. But then it builds it, if we're matching. One of the most important things you can do is just if you're saying something, look and sound like you mean it. And if you're talking about something horrible, like your company solves a problem that is killing millions of people each year, don't say that with a big smile on your face, because it looks weird. You have to think about the reality and the emotions of what you're saying, so it's got to match. So that's why I wanted to bring that up, is this concept of congruence, your voice, your body, your facial expression, and your words all telling the same story, is super important for people trusting you. And as we know in business, trust is everything.  Katty: I love that concept of congruence. I will have to check it out and check out your book as well. Will: Yeah I've dedicated I think chapter four, the first part of chapter four to that little story and that idea. And it's what I call being in alignment. Step four of my sort of methodology that I take students through when I coach them is  After we work on body language storytelling, which we should probably get into as well and then doing some practical tips to start recording yourself and watching it back and, getting recordings of you in your natural environment. We go a bit deeper into your personal life and your history, and we go where do you come from in your childhood. What happened to you growing up that made you do the work that you do, and is there any part of you that you're maybe ashamed of, or you don't want to show to the world, or you wish were different? And we start having those conversations, because the reason that we do that kind of work,  Is if you can align all of those things just psychologically for yourself if okay This was my childhood. It made me this way and maybe i'm a little ashamed of that But i'm owning it and all of that brought me to where I am today And that's why I do what I do and i'm honest and transparent and real about that. That's a powerful person You know when you see those people It's you're just like wow, this person is a force to be reckoned with whatever they're doing. I'm investing i'm buying from them I'm working with them. I'm saying yes to their request. Yeah, but I do think we should also talk about the storytelling. Yeah, we should, Katty: Especially because the candidates that we work with. The creatives, whether they're writers or they're visual artists, they are storytellers. And they can probably tell the story of their piece of art that they've created.  But I think when we're talking about an interview session, the story of their career trajectory of their arch, passion like all of that sometimes doesn't come across as a story. There's not a through line in that. So I'd love to talk about that.  Will:  I have two story frameworks that I like to work with.  One is for your presentation and the other is for your personal story. So let's just get into the personal one because that's the one you're asking about. It is what I call the founder origin story, but those are for startup founders, but anybody can use this when they're telling their own story.  It has three components, your childhood origin, your youth realization, and then your adult choice. Do you mind if I ask you, if I workshop this with you, Katty, right now, if I ask you some questions? Okay, cool. It's a great thing to see an example. So yeah, Katty,, where were you born? Katty: I was born in Iran. Will: And when did you leave Iran to go to the States? Katty: In 1979 during the revolution.  I was 13. Will:  So 13 is an interesting age because it's on the precipice. It's on that edge between, childhood and youth, but maybe that is where it all starts for you or just, and of course, there's no complete story. We're trying to tell it in a short amount of time. What do you think about growing up in Iran or leaving when you did in the circumstances that you did.  What do you think about that set you on the path that you're on now in terms of what you're interested in or what you became focused on. Katty: I'm a huge traveler and just like I different cultures or something that just you know, that's what makes me happy. Learning about different cultures, and experiencing different cultures, because I see myself having come from two different cultures and became this congruent piece of the two cultures together. So that piece of it has, I think, influenced me, shaped me from the beginning.  Will: That's really interesting. By the way, my wife talks about this a lot because she's Pakistani, but then grew up in both Australia and Canada. So she has this like Eastern and Western two things, but a lot of people talk about this as a third culture.  They call it third culture kid. You're not quite from the culture of your parents, but not quite from the culture that you're growing up in. You exist in this third place. That's what I'm hearing from you.  So that could be really interesting to bring to the forefront. Will: We don't know this stuff about people because people never tell these stories. Katty: Humanity comes through, right? Yeah.   Yeah. Suddenly, you're not a name on a piece of paper. You're an actual individual. Will: Yeah, with real experiences and difficult things you've been through, and yeah, 100%. That's the purpose of storytelling, really. Is to connect with other people by humanizing ourselves, and then they see our humanity, they feel it in themselves, they give it back, and it's that great rebound ping-pong effect. In general, with storytelling, specificity is really powerful. Whatever story you're telling we want, I always tell people you want to be specific with it because it actually helps the listener hook in more. Katty: How do you do that in a business environment with somebody looking at somebody's resume or their LinkedIn profile? How do we tie that into a story, but it's more of a professional story? Obviously, we want to show the full individual. I imagine if you have a 30-minute interview that you got to be, to your point, concise. But you got to also be able to tell that story, but you also want to talk about your skills and what you've accomplished and like all of those things. So how do we business storytell?  Will: Yeah. So what I would say is you have to spend some time in this emotional place thinking of the stories, remembering them, extracting them and figuring out which ones. But as you said, they've got to be relevant. So let's just get the last piece and then I'll show you how you can weave it all together. Katty: I think it was just having the self-realization and introspection on who am I and what's my purpose and what's my why and that actually really builds into the Artisan philosophy of, we're here about building relationships based on trust. Because we do is help people in that career trajectory to find the next right thing for themselves. And that is really our purpose. So my personal purpose is infused with the company purpose. Will: And it is for all the best founders. And that's the thing too, is that people need to realize is if your life story doesn't make sense with the work you're doing, then it's, you're not a very attractive person to work with. But for you, so the piece I'm still missing is just the specificity of I realized that I had to do this kind of work.  What was that realization? Katty:  I don't know if I have a defining moment. I got to think about that. I would imagine that it went back to pre-Artisan work when I first started working and realizing that it fed my soul to help other people. And it's just, like I was saying, it's shown up in different jobs that I had before got involved with Artisan. Will: And these are things that we want to work on. We want to think about and really like practice. We don't want to make it too rehearsed, but we really want to have those thoughts in our mind when we're introducing ourselves. So then, okay we'll take it. And this is a very simple version.  We've only spent 10 minutes on this, but already here's what you would do in the interview.  I realized helping people be the best versions of themselves actually fed my soul.  I knew I had to do something like that. So that's why I started Artisan Creative. And, you can give a quick little elevator pitch. So that story takes almost no time. And, but it, but we know so much about you. And you're so human for us. Within 20 to 30 seconds.  So that's what I always advocate for. People are like, oh, I don't want to waste time talking.  about my story doesn't take that long. If you've got it down. Katty: You got to take the time to workshop it and figure it out beforehand.  Will: Exactly.What are the points? And that's why, childhood origin, youthful realization, and adult choice. If you get your point for each one, you can cover one to two sentences for each point. Katty: I love how quickly you did that, Will.  So where can people find you if they want to go through this process for themselves with you? I know you do quite a bit of coaching virtually for a lot of people, right? Will: The way people generally find me is through my LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/willgreenblatt/]. I try to post I do post every day there, and I'm always giving advice on public speaking, specifically pitching and presentations, but also being on stage and communicating with people, and also a lot of stuff on entrepreneurship. And so I'd say for your audience, even if they identify as entrepreneurs or not, learning the philosophy of entrepreneurship is really important because it's about problem solving, and that will never be a bad thing to learn. And then I also have a news, a weekly newsletter.  So if people want to follow my newsletter [https://greenblast.beehiiv.com/], they can find it. But anybody can get in touch with me through my through my LinkedIn, through the DMs. Katty: Fantastic. And of course, I will be sharing all of that information out with the audience too. But I think this is really powerful to recognize the impact that our voice and our tone and all of that can have in any kind of interaction, obviously we're focusing it more on the interview, but in any kind of interaction, even colleague to colleague,  even internal meetings, like all of those.  That energy and that passion is going to come through our voice.  Will: Absolutely. And it's just that is what I call the final 10%.  If you do all this hard work on your presentation or your pitch or you prepare for your meeting, you get your notes done, you make a presentation, you make a report do this PowerPoint, and then you get up there and you just…It's such a waste and it can torpedo the whole thing. And it's just that final 10%. If you give that final 10 percent of effort and preparation and training and stuff, then you honor all that hard work you did. So don't let it fall flat at the finish line. That's a, that's my takeaway message. Katty: Yeah. Actually, you know what, let's have this one be a takeaway message. I remember this so well that when we were speaking a couple of years back, you were talking about just like warming up the face muscles. Will: Yes, you know that people go on stage and or in an interview or on a call with a client and Like none of this has been warmed up.  Yes, it's not a awake just to warm up these muscles. I can give  you two exercises that you can do to completely change the way that you're going to sound and look. So the first one is it's an exercise called Big face, Small face. So you want to get your mouth muscles moving your eyebrows going and get your eyes open. Because right now I'm really tired, you can even see my eyes are closed. I have a 17-month old toddler. She gets me up at 5 in the morning every day, and I'm not meant to get up that early. But, so when I was preparing for this, I had to, do these exercises. Big face, small face looks like this. You go, like that for big face, and then you go for small face. So you open your eyes really, and your mouth really wide for big face, and then you scrunch your face forward for small face. So even if you're in a waiting room, you can still go to the bathroom, you can find a quiet corner and just do some tongue twisters. And the tongue twisters can be the classic ones that maybe everybody knows. Unique New York, and you exaggerate the mouth muscle. Unique New York, and you start to breathe and use more of voice. So you do the tongue twisters and the big face small face and try to get your breathing and your voice going  and you'll just feel so much more awake and energized. There's more other warm up techniques you can use but just those two will really set you up for success and you'll, you're doing something silly and goofy so it takes away a lot of the nerves. So we'll do a  big face, little face,  and then a unique New York, red leather, yellow leather, how now brown cow. And you just do, you do those and you're ready to go.  Katty: Thanks for giving us the sendoff here to really, finish this conversation with energy and with passion.  The Artisan Podcast is brought to you by the good people at Artisan Creative [https://www.artisancreative.com/], a digital, creative, and marketing recruitment firm with 27 years of experience, placing freelance and full time talent across multiple verticals.  For more information, check out ArtisanCreative.  com and we look forward to meeting you.

ep36 | the artisan podcast | ric krause | the importance of narrative

Ric Krause  | [https://rkrause.carbonmade.com/]LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ric-krause-56372b5/] Katty: Ric, thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the artisan podcast. Looking at your resume, the through line that I see through everything is really the impact of the narrative.  Where did this passion come from for you? How did you get started in this?  Ric: Actually, in college, I was a music major. I was a composition major, and so even before I got to writing, I was working with form, and my composition teacher said, you could paint a room red and with one white dot, and that's okay, but you better defend that white dot, and that goes to the structure underneath creative,  and it was such a great exercise to get as free as you could, then pin it into a structural foundation.  And then in music, there's all sorts of rules for harmony, ease, melody, tonality. And so the concept is built into the structure immediately.  And that helped me with everything I did. So when I segued into writing, and I had written a play  and that got me represented, and then I started pitching and started to sell TV stuff and film stuff,  all of those, all the ability to think conceptually and grounded into structure came into play. And at the same time, we are synaptically hardwired to engage with story. So if you can really use that to your advantage and get people to engage quickly and wonder what happens next, however, that translates into your messaging,  people are wired to be taken by the lapel and led forward,  and it's what you're utilizing with good storytelling. Katty: You're going to invite people into that story with good storytelling. Ric: Yeah, I would say more than invite them, you grab them. Really good storytelling and audiences on the edge of their seat, leaning forward toward you.  One, someone is leaning in. And within brand messaging, it's really within, I think, less than three seconds,  you've got them.  If they're already tuning you out, how do you make up for that difference when they're already leaning back out of your messaging? How are you going to pull them back in? That's tough. Once you've got them, of course, you have to extend their engagement all the way to the end, which in a lot of CTA, but you have to grab them in, whether you're telling a thriller or a 30 second spot.  Katty: Okay, so what's the How? How does a copywriter who's starting in their career path right now make that shift of saying, okay, just writing copy for the sake of writing copy is different than what Ric is talking about right now? Ric: Yeah I, think that you have to always consider the one question that is the through line of all narrative, whatever that narrative is, and that question is "what happens next?" What happens next? What happens next? There are many tools that you can use to get there.  A reversal reversal expectation; A plot twist.  You set someone up to believe one thing and then it changes.  Use an interesting hero or antagonist, use a cliffhanger, use backstory. We're doing this because this happened before.  You can use all those tools and you're setting people up to track your message with the synaptic pathways that are already there for receiving narrative. It's taking advantage of something we're already disposed to engage with.  Katty: How do you do that in like a 30-second spot though?  Ric: This is where the agencies are often really good at the 30-second spot. My question is what would go beyond that? You have to engage really quickly with, I think, both the right type of hero, heroine and the right type of world-building.  And world-building means that we're always trying to make our audience feel something.  It's not a dry exercise. We want them to feel they are the real heroes of the story. They're the stars of the story. And we have to deal with how we want them to feel while using our product. If you're an Alfa Romeo buyer, you're a sexy soul and if you're a Jeep buyer, you're a rugged individual, right? They're different. Brands have different feels to them. So what we want to do from the get go is make them build the right world. If it's an ad for a Liberty Jeep, it's gonna have a rugged terrain in front of you. You want to build the right world immediately, show the right person in that world, because that is the aspirational leap someone is taking. I'm that guy. I'm that girl. That's really me.  Now we've got them. That's the first hook. You can do it with crazy humor, like if there's a 30-second spot,Chewy's is interesting, because they have the dogs and the cats that talk to you, because they're members of your family, and they always have them saying funny stuff. You're immediately in, and you also know the experience, because you love your dog, you love your cat, they're like your family.  You need to find some immediate hook.  The audience will jump into and see themselves as the star of that, 30 second spot, the old advertising saying is selling the dream. And that's what you're doing. Really.  Katty: So I want to pivot here on this conversation, obviously Artisan Creative is a recruiting company.  So my mind immediately goes to when a candidate applies, right? Or when where our clients write a job description. How does that piece….. it almost serves as their advertising piece…, right? How can that job description grab the attention of viable candidates?  And then the flip side of it, how can a candidate's resume or their portfolio provide the same "hook", if you will, so that it grabs the attention of interested parties? So let's start with the client side first, the employer brand, and just the narrative around that.  Ric: I think that's great and it sets up a possibly great interview. If each party does it well, then you're opening up what I would call story court where people can really talk and the employer or the potential employer can really get a feel for whether this candidate can work for them and their requisites and vice versa. The possible candidate is given not only the opportunity to show who they are and what they do, they can see if this job is a fit for them and everybody takes it from that moment.  I think employers need to talk about the specifics that are needed in terms of job, and skill set, but also be really clear on what their own brand story is. It goes to what we were talking about a couple of minutes ago. What is the brand essence? What's the brand DNA? Because what you're doing in all brand messaging is taking that essence and putting it in motion. And that motion is going to be absorbed by us, your audience, and then we're going to feel it. So you need to be able to talk to your potential candidates in a way that is hands-on and not 30, 000 foot up. If you tell me something general in a, in, in or communicate to your recruiter, something that's general,  it's very hard for a candidate to really respond.  And, that goes all the way to writing briefs as well. All of the on the employer side is the onus of specificity,  of a hierarchy of ideas, communicated correctly,  of,  Telling your candidates, what is the feel of the creative you want from them? You have to find out from them. How they can create in your playground. Katty: Yeah. Obviously skills and software that somebody knows that goes without saying, if the job requires it, the job requires it. But what I'm hearing from you is the storytelling piece of it, or the narrative piece of it, excuse me, on the employer side is really kind almost like the soft skills or the EQ side of the equation. You may have the skills, but you need to also be able to buy into the story that we have about our brand.  Who it is that we are what, is it that we stand for. Ric: Exactly, because if you just were to dump a huge style guide onto somebody.  You will absorb some of the things, but it's not going to give your candidate or your employee a real feel for what you want from them. You need to know it internally, I think, personally, that gives your candidate a place to start from to know what the tone and the attitude of your messaging. And that comes from understanding your brand DNA backwards and forwards.  Katty: How is a candidate going to really be able to differentiate who they are, if they have not had a chance yet to have a face-to-face or a Zoom interview, but this is purely just on the merit of their resume and or their portfolio, how can narrative and storytelling play a part in that? Ric: I would say imagine an interview. Imagine before you do it if you haven't done it. Imagine what you would say if you had to be the hero of your own story. What would you say?  Not just the details, but what the details add up to. You need to know your brand. Everything's branding. The process from the brief to the deliverable to the end, Endpoint is all about that communication. Katty: Love that. Thank you. Thank you for that insight. Because I think, we, try to work quite a bit with candidates to get them ready for their interviews and to just put their best foot forward. And to be able to tell the authentic story of who they are is just so important when it comes to not only the resume but also in the interview and be able to have a thorough line as to their career path, right?  Ric: Yeah. And I also in all of this emotion is important in all of that and all of messaging, whatever you're messaging about, you can't leave the emotion out of the equation.  People hook into it or they don't. So know who you are. Don't be afraid to show your passion about things.  Katty: Great words. Thank you. So what are you working on these days? Ric: Yeah I, took, I  think it's now been seven months off. I created in a wonderful recording studio in LA called The Village.  I created, hopefully, this makes sense, think of a play with a live concert built into its narrative. And that's what I, did quite a while developing, recording, and mixing. And, now we actually have a first offer from a theater in Detroit. It ties together everything I've done all my life, because it's about, music. The lead is a musician, it has literally a concert woven into the story, and the how of that is a story in itself.  The storytelling involves the audience, so it has an immersive quality to it.  And so it gives you a story and a concert in one. And that's what I've been doing,  for the last seven months of my life.  Katty: Story and a concert in one. I'd love to dig into that. By the way, The Village is just up the street from where I live.T Ric: Oh, you know The Village? Awesome.  Katty: Yeah.  Infamous recording studio. I think Madonna's recorded there, Zeppelin's recorded there. Ric: It all hangs, you feel like the notes hang in the air, all the great notes that have been played there.  It is such a feel. We were in John Meyer's studio. It is, it's just a great place to create.  Katty: I've always wanted to just see the inside. I've only seen it from the outside. Next time you go, let me know. Ric:  I wish if I'd known you sooner, cause people don't get to go in and it is, magical. There is a zillion platinum records everywhere. They are so aware of who they are and what their legacy is that they showcase it really beautifully. Katty: It’s their brand, so they can stand behind that brand.  So let's go back to your play with a live concert within it.   Tell me more.  Ric:  Okay, it's called The Goldtop, and that's a Les Paul Goldtop guitar. It's about a 1952 Les Paul Goldtop guitar that this down-and-out musician finds in a pawn shop way out in the Valley, and he scratches the money to get it, and his career starts to go on an uptick, and he gets, finally starts to realize all the things he's always wanted to realize. It is a very subtle ghost story. so it works, I think, as a dynamic piece of narrative, but when I wrote it,  I wrote a very hyper-condensed script that left room for the music.  If you know an album called Back to Black by Amy Winehouse, it takes off from where she left. She did an amazing thing. She combined Motown and R&B, she was a genius and so we have picked up from there. and built our sound from that. And so that's the music.  Katty: Oh, I Love that.  when, it's live in Detroit and, or it goes on tour and it comes here in LA, just definitely keep us, posted.  In addition to what you're doing with the play tell me more about your, copywriting, your and storytelling.  Ric:  I was a founding partner of a branded content firm called StoryPoint and pre-pandemic, as many stories in advertising are, we were the content engine for Be Grizzly, which is Chiat Day. And they took our slate and we're going to sell it through a Hollywood agency.  And I'm now trying to get them just to fund one of those projects, which is called Same Frame. And that uses a variety of influencers that are, we pick their names out of a hat, we match them, we send them a roll of old-fashioned film, not digital film, real film. And they shoot it on that film, whatever the thematic is. Then we take that same roll of film and we give it to the other one and they shoot on the same roll of film. So we're inviting double-exposure and it's all about how different points of view can come together and create something startling and beautiful. I've seen the work, and it's extraordinary. And none of the influencers know who each other are, and at the end of the season we have different shows where they all come and they see the results of their work, and so it has a live component to it.  You get to see different influencers that you know operate in the sphere. There is a, really interesting sub-pocket of people who still photograph and Jeff Bridges and people who are less well-known but equally interesting, had signed up to do this with us. So that’s the project that I'm trying to get going. That's one of the more unusual ones. Then, in terms of brand, really, when you're a hired hand you're, doing the best you can with what you got.  When I was at a company called Legal Shield, they had, it's a legal insurance where people spend 30 bucks a month to have access to a lawyer. The problem with that is no one wants to think about that moment. No one wants to think about creating a will, no one wants to think about the time your neighbor breaks their leg on your property and is going to sue you, it's not how we think, and if you catastrophize in messaging, I think you're running a real risk.  And we persuaded them to do it with humor. Like the insurance companies do, like GEICO, where there are all these stupid laws on the books in all 50 states. If you're in Louisiana, you can't send an unsolicited pizza.  In the state of Connecticut, you can't bounce a pickle off the floor. It's against the law.  So we use these things to make these little spots about you can't, did you know you can't do this? Did you know you can't do this? And that's a lead into talking about how we can help you know things. And so in terms of what I always hope to bring to brand is that type of thing, where you use a way to deal with human emotion that engages as opposed to anything else, because I don't think anything else works. Katty: Yeah. And so, many of the other ones are fear factor based, like eliciting fear and it is catastrophizing, but you say  you, you bring up the funny laws and I had heard about some law somewhere, I forget which state it is, that you can't have ice cream in your pocket.  Yeah. Who has ice cream in their pocket?  Or, but I guess there's a law somewhere for it.  Ric: There are, there's an insane amount of laws. You can Google them. There, there are an amazing amount of silly laws everywhere.  Katty: So funny.  Let's go to inspiration and creativity.  Ric: My most favorite brand that has always inspired me the most is Apple. Apple is my personal Mecca because they perform this magic act of taking a sleek piece of tech and telling us it makes us exponentially more human.  That is a brilliant stroke and they do it over and over and over and their ads like the history of sound is the one I love but  they're just wonderful. They're so smart and it's an illustration of again personalizing something that could have been so im And I, a lot of what I've done, and I always try to bring when I'm doing brand messaging, comes from that.  Not literally, but figuratively. That I always try to find, as I say, the old advertising motto, sell the dream. How do I do that? What's the emotion involved? What do I want our audience to feel? And that's where you start.  And I think that all copywriters should be tasked with imagining the hero image because they have to start thinking that way. And designers can start thinking about the message and they usually do.  And if you collaborate from the get-go, present, get your notes, and collaborate again, you're going to get a much better product, but it's going back to it, I really love images and I work on it because I edit. Katty: Sounds like filmmaking and watching films, just being around other creatives, whether it's through a medium of film or working together is really what's an inspiration point for you. So one final question building on what you're just saying. What happens in this remote workspace that we're in that a lot of people are working in a silo?  Yes, we have zoom and so on and so forth. But, many people are no longer sitting next to someone else in the office. Any advice or experiences that you can share around that? How to continue collaboration and inspiration? Ric: Yeah, I think one thing for sure, maintain your network, and it can be outside the company you're in. In fact it should be outside the company you're in, as you go through the various jobs  that you have, if you meet a colleague that you vibe with, that you riff with well creatively, stay in touch. My suggestion is, since we're in the siloed-off world, grow your own network, like a garden. Katty: So you can be siloed, but just don't be solo and this whole thing. I'm glad that we got a chance to meet, and be in one another's network and continue, what would you call it? A garden? Ric: Yeah, you got to grow your networks, your network like a garden. Katty: Yeah, I love it. Love it. That was, beautiful. So with that, Ric, I just want to thank you for being here and sharing your experience and your wisdom with this group. And remind us one more time about the name of your play so that when we see it on billboards, we'll know, who it's from. It's called The Gold Top. The Artisan Podcast is brought to you by the good people at Artisan Creative, a digital, creative, and marketing recruitment firm with 27 years of experience, placing freelance and full time talent across multiple verticals.  For more information, check out Artisan Creative.  com and we look forward to meeting you

ep35 | the artisan podcast | rickie ashman | experiential design

Rickie is a seasoned Creative Director & Design Director who successfully leads 360-degree campaigns for high-profile clients and turns big-picture ideas into compelling multi-platform campaigns.  Together we talk about experiential design and what it takes to be an artisan in this field. Find Rickie here: IG @littlecountryfox |  Linkedin [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lilcountryfox/] | rickieashman.com [https://rickieashman.com/] Katty Rickie, so excited to have you here on the Artisan Podcast. I know we've known each other through Artisan for a long time, but this is the first time you and I are actually sitting down to have a chat.   Rickie Yeah, I'm very excited to be here. Thank you for having me.     Katty How did you get started as a creative? And when did you know that being a creative was a passion for you?  Rickie I was always a doodler and a daydreamer, according to my teachers, and I got special permission when I was in middle school to doodle because the teacher saw that my grades were good. In fact, I was at the top of my class in middle school, so they knew that it wasn't impeding my learning abilities. But, their one rule was that I had to doodle in a separate notebook and not in my class notes or in my textbook, which I was fond of doodling in. And flash forward to the beginning of my career I missed out on the opportunity to go to art school. It was something that I had wanted to do, but I grew up in New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina hit towards the tail end of my high school year. So, I think my parents were thinking practically when they guided me into going to business school for college. So, when I graduated, I think I ended up moving into a creative career through sheer force of will. On my first job, I began to teach myself Photoshop through my early interest in art where I was learning how to color-correct photography and illustrations. And then, in my first job, our designer left the company and there was a hole to fill, and I volunteered to take it on and thus began my early career as a designer. Katty So that's pretty amazing that your teachers recognized the importance of doodling and didn't curtail that but actually gave you permission, if you will, to be able to do that. Rickie Yeah,  I think so. And I think, what also has really helped throughout my career is the ability to tell a story. And starting off as a wannabe illustrator, as a kid where I would draw out stories and plot lines in a linear comic book-like format, has always stuck with me. I had a brief stint getting into creative writing in high school as well. So working on more of the advertising front, where oftentimes a lot of what we do is storytelling in a sense for both the client and the consumer to get the buy in. I think that's also helped ground me and my approach. So doodling led to a good overall process for creative thinking. And I think it's a great mental exercise particularly, when you're having writer's block, shall we say, sometimes it's good to just, do something with your hands while your mind is working away. While I doodle less these days, sometimes I find myself scribbling. In my work notes. Katty Love that. Yeah, I'm reading this book right now. Actually, not that far into it, but even in the first few chapters, it's called Your Brain on Art [https://www.amazon.com/Your-Brain-Art-Arts-Transform/dp/0593449231/ref=asc_df_0593449231/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=598229505507&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8708560494335012219&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031022&hvtargid=pla-1823145602579&psc=1&mcid=33497a3540503e6fbc34d2977b3f1e9c&gclid=CjwKCAjwt-OwBhBnEiwAgwzrUqN9jLxeA5gZGt1SPwgp0wu0SoLDRimkUBxP3s7E5TwyUDs1-Zc1hRoCw9wQAvD_BwE]it talks a lot about just the connection of art and just, even the doodling piece of it, but the importance of just allowing your brain to travel and be able to do that. It helps with writer's block. It helps with anything, really any kind of block but just that physical process, just what it does, the chemicals in your brain,  pretty amazing.  So you moved from your love of illustration and you built on that and your love of design and you built on that. How did you get into experiential design? And how would you describe experiential design versus traditional creative work?  Rickie Yeah, I think  Again, really through happenstance when I began my career, I was working brand side. So I handled everything from print to digital to occasional photo shoot and video shoot production and concepting for the brand. Early on in my career, I ended up making a jump from the retail brand side to a new creative agency called Matte Projects [https://matteprojects.com/]. And Matte is known for not just being a boutique creative agency, but also throwing their own events and music festivals in New York city. So right at the beginning, I think of when brands were starting to realize that events were a great way to reach young people, I started working for an agency that I think began the new model of experiential agency. What started off as throwing our own events as a way to advertise the agency and build an audience for the events that we would later on throw for our brands. I had my hand in thinking about programming, and talent pools and artist selection for events, as well as, pitching the event concepts to potential sponsors. The experiential projects offered me, as a creative, an interesting chance to do a little bit of everything where on a content shoot, you might not have much print design, or digital design, or even interior design involved in the project. It can be a little routine after a while. I think experiential is nice in that given the scale of the project, you end up being able to touch multiple aspects of design. Which again keeps things always fun and challenging in the right way. So on any given experiential project, you're design directing, you're directing the spatial environment, the look and feel prop sourcing, there's this stage element, thinking about the theatrics of the performance or the run of show for the guest experience. We like to throw around the phrase cocktail theater. If it's a dinner event or a party, what is entertaining people while they're in this beautiful house that you've created? It's a very 3d type of design experience, and I think the ability to have people experience your work in a physical format, it has always been exciting for me. Whereas, on a content piece, you're viewing it online or on social media or maybe through a streaming platform, when you're actually there in the environment, hearing them, and seeing the sights and sounds, tasting the thematic menu, seeing the vignettes that we build I think it's all very exciting.  And it's certainly, at least still now that we've come out of the pandemic, one of the primary ways of targeting young people, thankfully, so it still keeps me busy. I'm glad that we've been able to move back to physical experiences because they are always exciting projects. I think that, again, the nice thing about experiential is that every project is so different. And,  oftentimes, I find the need to bring on a specialist to handle a certain element of the project. In some cases, we have a need for an illustrator, or an animator, or a motion graphics artist to create content or key art for the experience. So I'll look to find talent that can help express my creative vision or the clients’ hopes and dreams for the experience.  I think one of the core challenges is that playing in the world of a brand, you have limits. So sometimes you have to use the client's colors and the client's look and feel. But in other cases, sometimes clients are looking to the agency and the creative team to dictate what the look and feel should be. So I worked on an event a few years ago for a jewelry brand where they gave us four creative parameters, but we had the opportunity to create some new elements using stock and vintage photos. And I brought in a mixed media designer who created this really incredible collage art wall that really fit in with current trends in design, which in my background as a designer, I'm always trying to make sure that we are staying relevant, timeless, but relevant. So it's always exciting when I can make the design work feel a little bit more edgy. Sometimes we do templatize our approach on things like printed directional signage and menus, things that are the necessary evils of any branded event. But it's always exciting for me when my designer is able to own elements like that and have fun with them and create something that, has a little bit more of an editorial feel. Even with digital, we're oftentimes looking to build a microsite, or maybe some events have a digital experience component. So there are so many ways that I'll bring on a prop stylist every now and then, or a photographer, or filmmaker for a project. So it's exciting how collaborative and how expansive experiential projects can be because they allow you to work with so many various types of creative individuals across the world. Katty  So you said two things I want to dive into a little bit more. First of all, I love that you brought in vintage while you were talking about trends and staying relevant, and for marrying the two together there, I thought that was fantastic. So you talked about always wanting to be relevant and stay relevant and just know what the new design trends are. Can you share a little bit about what are some of the trends that you're seeing? And a second question to dovetail from there,  for somebody just starting out in their path, where should they go to learn about whatever new trends are if they're not going the traditional school route? \ Rickie Yeah, I think, when I work with younger designers and look at where they are coming out of design school or, in some cases, people do come from non-traditional routes.  I've worked with a lot of people in experiential who've come from the world of architecture, or in some cases they worked early on in their career as a producers, but, they are creative problem solvers, so they can merge into a creative director or assistant creative director role. I think it's key for anyone young to try to train their eye from early on. So really being present and mindful of the world around them and noticing patterns, also training their eye around things that reflect their personality. I think my vision of what is beautiful or cool is very biased, shall we say, based on my background growing up in New Orleans and in Tokyo and living in New York City and London. I feel it's a particular vision of how things should be. And it's certainly not the only or right way, so I've tried to craft it around, what excites and inspires me. And certainly, what I was influenced by as a young person, I think, anyone starting off should not be afraid to reflect on what they enjoy and what excites them, because it's always different for all of us. I find it helpful to start by being conscious of what you can do and trying to push yourself 10 or 30 percent to do more. So for me, because I taught myself design, I had to work with those parameters early on. If I  didn't have the technical skill, I would try to learn it, if I could do it in a reasonable timeframe for the sake of the project. And then if not find a specialist to assist me. But then I could continually grow and learn while not staying stagnant or limiting myself necessarily to, to what my skill set was at the time. I think in terms of current trends, I think font selection is certainly one of the things that live and breathe with the changing of the times. The music industry, I feel is always a great place to start off by seeing what artists are doing in their music videos, on their album art, in their merchandise, and tour posters.  I think there, there's such a need for today's musicians to stand out and attune to the current zeitgeist, that they're oftentimes very on-trend. Coming from a little bit of working in the music industry, I've always found most exciting that as a designer, you tend to get to do the most, authentic and interesting things for artists because they're all willing to be, they're also creative, so there's less pushback than when you're working with the brand and they are worried that something that they might not have seen before is or isn't the right path. I think, again, there's a need to be mindful and present in the world around you, so by building our eye around what inspires us, we can push ourselves to grow without moving far away from who we are trying to conform to specifically a trend in the design ecosystem. But I think anyone starting off should just strive to enjoy what they do, and pay attention to the things that inspire them, and build their toolkit around their own personality and vision.  Katty I love that. What I'm hearing is it's not necessarily to just stay in the one lane that you're in, but really allow everything around you, whether it be music or other artists or museums and stuff like just take a little bit from everything to then build what your own style is or whatever your what your calling card is going to be around that.  Rickie Totally. And I think the key thing too is it's important for a creator to push themselves out of their comfort zone. I think there's the old saying, don't judge a book by its cover. But I find sometimes I will be inspired in a way that, that I didn't normally anticipate by going to an event or watching a movie or reading a book or going to an art show that I wouldn't have initially sought out on my own in some cases. I go with friends and they're the impetus for discovery and other times, the opportunity presents itself and I make a conscious decision to try it even if I suspect that it may not be for me. But I found in life that you never know where you need to pull a reference from. So it's helpful to know a little bit of everything and not overly specialize. Always be learning and looking, I think, at the world around you is crucial. Katty Yeah, I love that. Have an infinite mind. Be open to whatever the stimulus is. But you brought up the opportunity that you had to live in a few different places, different countries, and also travel.  I find that inspiration for me comes from travel. Anytime I'm within a different culture or taste different foods or things that I didn't even know I would find inspiration or inspiring I come back to over the years and build the richness of the tapestry of my experiences. Do you find that's really influenced you as a creative? The fact that you've been able to be exposed from New Orleans to Japan and to New York and places in between, Rickie  Totally. I think for better or for worse, it's certainly been one of the biggest imprints  on my taste, my sensibilities, and my personality. Everyone's heard of New Orleans, but we're still a relatively small city in the American South. So there are some limiting factors growing up there that caused me to want to set out and explore the world around me. And I was fortunate in high school to have the opportunity to travel to Taiwan and study Chinese opera, which was a more unexpected journey to escape the American South and see something else in the world. But certainly led me to make the decision to pursue part of my university career in Japan, which of course if any designers listening to this don't know, Japanese design is immensely iconic and I think particularly influential in the world of packaging. So when I lived in Tokyo, even as a young person before I knew that I would work in design I was very cognizant of what I was seeing and experiencing and noticing the variations between the U. S. and foreign markets and, I think what dawned me, and I think anyone who travels probably has these same thoughts, but you know what are the differences that I love to bring back to make something, better back home. And then, even in the U. S., I think New York, New Orleans, L. A., all three cities are so culturally different. I'm, I think I've been fortunate to have lived in so many different places to broaden my horizons and, again, have a more holistic view of the country what feels right for New York may not work in a market like New Orleans or resonate in middle America. And I think it's important for us all to be inclusive in our thinking and be aware that the world is a much bigger place, and we have to account, I think, for other ways of thinking beyond our own when we design or particularly work in marketing where our work can impact culture or consumer behavior and how do we use our powers as creative minds to problem solve in ways that can improve the world or improve culture, add to add some sense of maybe for lack of a better word, beauty to the world beyond simply trying to sell or achieve a client KPI. I think I've been fortunate working more on the boutique front to have more flexibility when it comes to ideating so that we can work on solutions to client needs that, are culturally interesting and maybe beneficial to society versus being purely profit-driven. Katty Beautiful. So having a cause or a ripple effect, like the impact that message can have is so important. Rickie I think we all need to be mindful because we live in a world that needs our problem-solving to make it better. So I think having that holistic thought process where we understand the impact of what we do is crucial and it's important that we don't lose that. I think it's important for us to all stop and smell the roses throughout our career to keep ourselves in check. The only people who can make oneself better is themselves.  Katty Wise words. Yes, definitely, Rickie. Gotta look inwards and then to be able to look out outwards, right?    You talked earlier about, working with brands and sometimes just brand guides and style guides and just the boundaries that sometimes that offers and then trying to push those boundaries but still staying within, what's right for the brand, the colors, the fonts, the messaging, all of that. What's the fine line in that dance between taking a brand or a client, for that matter, and showing them something that maybe they've not thought of or not seen, or maybe it's in their blind spot and they didn't even realize that they wanted it? And still stay within those boundaries and those parameters that have been created. And then how do you bounce back from that if the idea falls flat or if they're not going to go for it, or if they give feedback that's contrary to what you wanted it to be? How do you do that? How do you dance that dance? Because I would imagine that's such an important piece of what you do is you want to show a side that maybe somebody hasn't seen. But yet you have to be ready that they may not want to go there. Rickie  Totally. I think that's the eternal dance of working on the agency side as a creative, as mitigating client feedback. I think there is a big level of empathy and psychology in understanding human thinking when receiving feedback. Sometimes we don't receive all of the information from the client to understand why they might make a certain request or decide to go with the safer alternative. But I think in my career, I've learned that sometimes you can push and it's really about reading the room and understanding the client. Some clients do want to be pushed and they want to be reminded that they are working with a creative or agency because of their experience level, their taste, their expertise. Other times, I've had to accept that the solution may not be my favorite choice, but you may just have to settle with the fact that it is what it is and try to make the most of it. And, design within those parameters to make something that you know you as a creative won't hate or feel uninspired by. But I try to always keep an open mind. If a client chooses path A or path B, I try to always go in suggesting routes that either way I could make work.  And I'm fortunate right now. My team and I are working on a project that the client chose. my favorite my favorite path in, and we've been lucky in that they've been really receptive to our direction which is rare. Sometimes that's a challenge that I face with my internal team. Not everyone is creative. Not everyone can see or imagine the final piece of creative based on the upfront description that we give in the beginning of the project. And I think there's a lot of, in any art form,  rationalization, contextualization, and strategy that's needed to go into selling an idea. So I try to work closely with my strategist team or strategist, depending on the size of the team,  to build that breadcrumb trail into the idea so that the client feels confident that it's the right choice and there's the rationale and there's an explanation of the thinking. And anyone starting off in their creative field, I think younger creatives are oftentimes pitching internally. But if they can create that rationalized approach and that storytelling, there's a greater chance that their idea will be bought, or heard, or considered. And, 14 years in, I still have ideas that get shot down and sometimes it's just the way that it is. And I think going with the flow is a good mentality to have and turning to roll with the punches, but, it's what makes our life interesting.  Katty I think you said that really well.  Not everybody has that gift, though, to be able to see the end result and to see the full picture. They can see this part of it, but not the entirety. So to have somebody like yourself or your team to be able to paint what that picture looks like is definitely a gift. You talked about collaborating with quite a few people in this conversation at various stages, whether it was the strategist or the person who pulled in the vintage pieces together for you. When you're hiring or you're looking to collaborate, what's most important to you? Is it their skills? Is it the culture fit? What do you look for when you're looking to add to your team?  Rickie, I think in my case.  as a creative it's really about who aligns most with the vision. That's where I start. And then there's a budget exercise, which is again, the reality check at times. It's always surprising sometimes, I'll find that someone that I want to work with is really affordable, just it's the right time and place and they're open to collaboration, and other times, their value exceeds the scope available for the project. And I'll have to work with my team to figure out, who is possible. But as far as vetting, I think on the designer front, I'd say portfolio is important, followed by culture fit knowing who can handle a high-stress environment or who might be client-facing are questions that I've asked recently, as I've looked to bringing on extra hands on the emerging or younger designer front. I think it's trying to find the diamond in the rough, the expectation for young talent is not that they're perfect, but that they have potential and that they have drive. I think one thing of value I've learned building my career early on in New York is to be hungry and to be precocious. So it's always good to try to be cross-functional to aid other team members oftentimes, in my case, it's doing copywriting when we don't have a copywriter on staff or assisting with sourcing or something like that. But I think you know, I think regardless of what your role is in a company, I think if you can be that person that has vision and wants to be helpful and wants to have your voice heard. Expressing that in a thoughtful way is the best ticket to moving up the ranks. Katty Yeah, I think that's, those are great pointers for somebody who's just starting out. I think what you said about looking for somebody who has potential, and that's huge right, to be able to as you're interviewing someone or as you know as a creative interviewing to be able to message out what that potential looks like and how they can do, variety of things that how they can juggle how can they how they can deal with a stressful environment or deal with change, for that matter, like being agile is critical in this day and age. Rickie, I want to thank you for the time that you've taken to be here and just sharing your journey with us. Before I let you go though, what are three lessons that you've learned in your path in addition to everything you've shared that a young creative listening right now could really just latch onto and say ....this is what I need to go do. Rickie I think my first would certainly be around self-education.   As often as you can, whether you're in college or just starting off in your career and don't necessarily have the level of responsibility as more senior employees, use that time to better yourself because nothing will help you more in life. I'd say whether it's learning a new language or an instrument, anything creative you can do that you enjoy and that you're inspired by, take the time when you have it. I think the second suggestion I would make would be around networking and learning the art of conversation. There are two areas where that can help you in your career. One is of course building your contact sheet, whether it's other creatives who you could potentially work with one day. Doesn't necessarily have to be upward networking with purely work-related contacts. I think the second aspect of that is building conversation skills so that you can grow to sell your ideas to your team or your client or communicate ideas effectively. The third suggestion is always keeping an open mind and pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. I think we've all encountered moments in our lives where someone said that they just don't like something because they've never experienced it in a way that's made them enjoyable, but I challenge everyone to reframe their brain to think ….I could like it.I just haven't found the right way in yet. Maybe a good example of this is country music. A lot of people, cliche say when you ask them what their favorite music is, Oh, I like a little bit of everything except for country and we all know what they mean. But in the genre of country, there's a vintage country folk more indie singer songwriter, more contemporary. Beyonce now has a country song. I think in culture it's constantly evolving and it's so expansive that to place those limiters on ourselves, prevents us from truly experiencing life. And again, when we work on projects, you never know when you might need to pull an information thread from something that you've experienced and didn't expect to. In my case, I went to Burning Man one year with a friend on a whim and I fully worried that I would have a terrible time. And lo and behold, I had a great time and it wasn't the time that I expected. And I was really surprised by how much art and creativity was expressed. And anyone who's gone will say, of course, but had I not gone, I would have remained biased against something that I really didn't know anything about. And particularly for experiential where I look to design, um, activations around this notion of emotional presence. It's so helpful to have this vast knowledge pool that's abstract and, unfiltered because it allows me to come up with new combinations of ideas that allow for my work to, I think, truly sing. Katty Great lessons, regardless of whether you're creative or not, right? Self-education, communication skills, being open-minded. I think those are great life lessons, regardless of whatever path somebody takes. So thank you for that.    Rickie Yeah, of course. Thank you so much again for having me. Hopefully, This is helpful to anyone starting off in their career, but I definitely have a lot of, um, empathy and respect for anyone pursuing a creative career because it does require a lot of self-determination to rise to the occasion, shall we say. Always love meeting and working with young talent and seeing them grow in their career. So hopefully this information will be helpful to someone one day. I am available on Instagram, my handle is @littlecountryfox and always available through LinkedIn [https://www.linkedin.com/in/lilcountryfox/] or I have a semblance of a website that I'm terrible at updating, but my email is on there. So I'm always happy to answer questions to anyone who may want to learn more about the agency life or creative process.