The Ezra Klein Show

Trump was losing in the courts. He’s not anymore. In the early months of the administration, the courts were proving a powerful check on President Trump, blocking many of his boldest actions. But those were the lower courts. In the past few months, the Supreme Court has weighed in, and it has handed Trump win after win after win. So what do these decisions enable the president to do? And why is the Supreme Court giving Trump what he wants? To pull all this apart, I’m joined by Kate Shaw. She is a former Supreme Court law clerk, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania Carey Law School and a host of the “Strict Scrutiny [https://crooked.com/podcast-series/strict-scrutiny/]” podcast. Note: This episode was recorded on Aug. 21, before Trump announced his intention to fire Lisa Cook from the Federal Reserve Board of Governors and before Immigration and Customs Enforcement re-arrested Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia and began processing him for deportation to Uganda. Mentioned: “Don't Believe Him [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8QLgLfqh6s]” by Ezra Klein “This Is the Presidency John Roberts Has Built [https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/07/supreme-court-roberts-trump-dictator/683576/]” by Peter M. Shane Book Recommendations: Lawless [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Lawless/Leah-Litman/9781668054628] by Leah Litman Vera, or Faith [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/717023/vera-or-faith-by-gary-shteyngart/] by Gary Shteyngart We the People [https://wwnorton.com/books/9781631496080] by Jill Lepore Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Josh Chafetz. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

ICE now has the biggest budget of any law enforcement agency in America. “ICE and Customs and Border Protection have long been the most rogue, kind of renegade and certainly pro-Trump police agencies in the federal government,” explained Radley Balko, a journalist who’s covered policing for decades. “What I think we are seeing right now is Trump is attempting to build his own paramilitary force. They want people whose first, ultimate loyalty in this job is going to be to the president.” Balko is the author of “Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces.” And he’s been tracking the changes at ICE and the Trump administration’s escalating law-and-order tactics on his excellent newsletter, The Watch [https://radleybalko.substack.com/]. Mentioned: “ICE’s Mind-Bogglingly Massive Blank Check [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/07/ice-budget-immigration-enforcement/683678/]” by Caitlin Dickerson “The police militarization debate is over [https://radleybalko.substack.com/p/the-police-militarization-debate?r=8xeg]” by Radley Balko Book Recommendations: The Highest Law in the Land [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/707263/the-highest-law-in-the-land-by-jessica-pishko/] by Jessica Pishko Unruly [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/742812/unruly-by-david-mitchell/] by David Mitchell Bottoms Up and the Devil Laughs [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/599267/bottoms-up-and-the-devil-laughs-by-kerry-howley/] by Kerry Howley Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Will Peischel. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Aman Sahota, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

“Make America Healthy Again” is a great idea — somebody should try it. A lot of the concerns animating the MAHA movement — chronic disease, the unhealthiness of the American diet, how profits warp our health care system — are serious issues. But Robert F. Kennedy Jr. hasn’t taken major actions to address them. Instead he’s gutted funding for scientific research, including nearly $500 million dedicated to mRNA vaccine development, throwing a huge amount of possibly lifesaving research in limbo. How did we get here? What are the politics that allowed Donald Trump to preside over Operation Warp Speed, the single most successful pandemic mitigation policy, and then turn around a few years later to appoint Kennedy to undo it all? My colleague David Wallace-Wells has done incredible reporting on how pandemic policies have shaped our politics, culture and society. Rachael Bedard is a physician and a writer who has been thinking deeply about what MAHA represents and where the movement could find common ground with its critics. Mentioned: “‘I Think He Is About to Destroy Vaccines in This Country’ [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/18/opinion/kennedy-vaccine-panel.html]” by David Wallace-Wells “Why Calling RFK Jr. ‘Anti-Science’ Misses the Point [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/why-calling-rfk-jr-maha-anti-science-misses-the-point.html]” by Rachael Bedard Book Recommendations: Doppelganger [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374610326/doppelganger/] by Naomi Klein The End Doesn’t Happen All at Once [https://www.alephbookcompany.com/book/the-end-doesnt-happen-all-at-once-a-pandemic-memoir/] by Chi Rainer Bornfree and Ragini Tharoor Srinivasan Plagues Upon the Earth [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691192123/plagues-upon-the-earth?srsltid=AfmBOoq8vAJyFOgG2BH9fe3Re66Yg6gX7zM_yDuvP9kbf-WNGKGCzCZc] by Kyle Harper The Making of the Atomic Bomb [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Making-of-the-Atomic-Bomb/Richard-Rhodes/9781451677614] by Richard Rhodes Calling the Shots [https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/193/monograph/book/76328] by Jennifer Reich Wave [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/223103/wave-by-sonali-deraniyagala/] by Sonali Deraniyagala Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Dr. Sunil Patel and Dr. Andrew Gabrielson. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

I do my best to respond to your critiques of some of our recent episodes. We got an overwhelming response to my interviews with the Palestinian activist Mahmoud Khalil, the national conservativism theorist Yoram Hazony and the human rights lawyer Philippe Sands on whether Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. So in this subscriber-only Ask Me Anything I answer some of the biggest critiques we received, as well as other listener questions on the Democratic Party’s political strategy, how the ideas in “Abundance” are rippling out in the world and the strange experience I had doing a Munk Debate. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. And if you aren’t a New York Times subscriber but would like to be, just go to nytimes.com/subscription. [https://www.nytimes.com/subscription] This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Why American Jews No Longer Understand One Another [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/20/opinion/antisemitism-american-jews-israel-mamdani.html]” by Ezra Klein Our episode with Philippe Sands [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/13/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-philippe-sands.html] Our episode with Mahmoud Khalil [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/05/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-mahmoud-khalil.html] Our episode with Yoram Hazony [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/01/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-yoram-hazony.html] Munk Debate [https://open.spotify.com/episode/2xe4KVuqSgYrPcP6mzm5I9?si=de0369f99c9d4522] Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast]. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html] This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon and Kristin Lin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

What is going on with the economy right now? There are a lot of mixed signals. President Trump slashed taxes, but he’s also bringing in a lot of money through tariffs. Inflation is creeping up, but the stock market keeps rising. Eye-wateringly large investments are flowing to A.I., which could lead to an explosion of productivity but also mass job loss. And then Trump fired the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics after a disappointing jobs report, raising concerns that the government’s data on the economy might get shakier. Natasha Sarin is the president and a founder of the Budget Lab at Yale. She has been tracking these trends and modeling the potential economic effects of many of Trump’s policies. I invited her on the show to walk through what she is thinking about the economy. Mentioned: “The Tariffs Kicked In. The Sky Didn’t Fall. Were the Economists Wrong? [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/31/opinion/tariffs-economy-inflation-recession.html]” by Jason Furman “Does the Stock Market Know Something We Don’t? [https://www.theatlantic.com/economy/archive/2025/08/stock-market-theories/683780/]” by Rogé Karma Book Recommendations: Showdown at Gucci Gulch [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/118994/showdown-at-gucci-gulch-by-jeffrey-birnbaum/] by Alan Murray Remarkably Bright Creatures [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/remarkably-bright-creatures-shelby-van-pelt?variant=43021750108194] by Shelby Van Pelt The Undoing Project [https://wwnorton.com/books/The-Undoing-Project/] by Michael Lewis Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota, Carole Sabouraud and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Katharine Abraham, Skanda Amarnath, Kimberly Clausing, Kathryn Anne Edwards, Matthew Klein, and Claudia Sahm. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.