The Ezra Klein Show

Interesting Times: She Exposed Epstein and Shares MAGA’s Anger

My colleague Ross Douthat talks to the journalist who exposed Jeffrey Epstein.  This episode of “Interesting Times,” with the Miami Herald investigative journalist Julie K. Brown, came out back in July. But since Epstein has very much stayed in the news, I wanted to share it now. The conversation is such a fascinating and helpful explainer of the whole case, and the questions that remain unanswered — with the woman whose reporting led to Epstein’s re-arrest.   If you haven’t had a chance to check out “Interesting Times” this year, you really should. The team has produced so many great episodes, especially with leading thinkers and activists on the right. You can find them on the NYT Audio app [https://apps.apple.com/us/app/nyt-audio/id1549293936], Apple [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/interesting-times-with-ross-douthat/id1438024613], Spotify [https://open.spotify.com/show/6bmhSFLKtApYClEuSH8q42?si=85c0f85203c94835], Amazon Music [https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/b42495b5-3d35-424f-8dcb-2b402b49f9ea/interesting-times-with-ross-douthat], YouTube [https://www.youtube.com/@InterestingTimesNYT], iHeartRadio [https://www.iheart.com/podcast/326-interesting-times-with-ros-29972437/#:~:text=Introducing%20'Interesting%20Times'&text=%E2%80%9CInteresting%20Times%20With%20Ross%20Douthat,the%20future%20of%20democrac...]or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Best Of: The ‘Quiet Catastrophe’ Brewing in Our Social Lives

The holidays are an unusually social time, filled with parties and family get-togethers. But for most of the year, we feel isolated and unsatisfied with our social lives. Our society isn’t structured to support connection year-round. So it’s an apt time to re-air this episode — a conversation with the writer Sheila Liming about rediscovering the lost art of hanging out. Liming is an associate professor of professional writing at Champlain College and the author of “Hanging Out: The Radical Power of Killing Time [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/717263/hanging-out-by-sheila-liming/].” In the book, Liming investigates the troubling fact that we’ve grown much less likely to simply spend time together outside our partnerships, workplaces and family units. What would it look like to reconfigure our world to make social connection easier for all of us? I spoke to Liming in April 2023. But I find that this conversation provides a clearer sense of what’s gone wrong in our social lives — and how to make “hanging out” with others more fulfilling. Note: We're still gathering questions for an upcoming "Ask Me Anything" episode we'd like to record. If you have any questions for Ezra, please email ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com using the subject line "AMA." Mentioned: “You’d Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don’t You? [https://annehelen.substack.com/p/youd-be-happier-living-closer-to]” by Anne Helen Petersen “The Nuclear Family Was a Mistake [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-nuclear-family-was-a-mistake/605536/]” by David Brooks Full Surrogacy Now [https://www.versobooks.com/products/711-full-surrogacy-now] by Sophie Lewis Regarding the Pain of Others [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780312422196/regardingthepainofothers] by Susan Sontag Letters from Tove [https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/letters-from-tove] by Tove Jansson Book Recommendations: Black Paper [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/B/bo119247871.html] by Teju Cole On the Inconvenience of Other People [https://www.dukeupress.edu/on-the-inconvenience-of-other-people] by Lauren Berlant The Hare [https://twodollarradio.com/products/hare] by Melanie Finn Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, with Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Kristina Samulewski. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Fareed Zakaria Thinks Steve Bannon Got One Thing Right

On Monday night, in front of a live audience, I talked to Fareed Zakaria about the different political age he believes we’ve entered.  Zakaria is the host of “Fareed Zakaria GPS” on CNN and the author of the 2024 book “Age of Revolutions: Progress and Backlash From 1600 to the Present. [https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393239232]” To mark the release of the book in paperback, Zakaria invited me to have this conversation at Symphony Space in New York City. We discuss the “revolution” we may be living through, the forces driving it,  and how the Democratic Party can adapt. Mentioned: The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-tea-party-and-the-remaking-of-republican-conservatism-9780190633660?cc=us&lang=en&] by Theda Skocpol and Vanessa Williamson "The Time Tax [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/07/how-government-learned-waste-your-time-tax/619568/]" by Annie Lowrey "Behind Trump and Vance Is This Man’s Movement [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/01/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-yoram-hazony.html]" by Ezra Klein "The end of progress against extreme poverty? [https://ourworldindata.org/end-progress-extreme-poverty]" by Max Roser "What Does the ‘Post-Liberal Right’ Actually Want? [https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/13/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-patrick-deneen.html?showTranscript=1]" by The Ezra Klein Show Escape from Freedom [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780805031492/escapefromfreedom/] by Erich Fromm Book Recommendations: A Preface to Morals by Walter Lippmann The Coming Of Post-Industrial Society [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/daniel-bell/the-coming-of-post-industrial-society/9780465097135/?lens=basic-books] by Daniel Bell The Lost City [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/alan-ehrenhalt/the-lost-city/9780465041930/?lens=basic-books] by Alan Ehrenhalt Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker.  Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon.  The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Dan Powell and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Patti Smith on the One Desire That Lasts Forever

Patti Smith, “the Godmother of Punk,” has lived a wild life and accumulated so much wisdom in the process. In the 1960s and ’70s, Smith was a fixture of the New York City creative scene — hanging out with the likes of Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin, Allen Ginsberg and Robert Mapplethorpe. Merging her own poetry with an ace backing band, she became a global rock star. Then she gave it up, moved to Michigan, raised a family, and remade herself into a best-selling author. Her stunning memoir “Just Kids” won the National Book Award and is one of the books that I’ve kept returning to, again and again. There is clearly something unusual about Smith. People who know her have described her as “shamanistic.” But even for those of us who will never become rock stars, there’s something inspiring — and oddly relatable — in how she thinks about life. So I was excited to have the opportunity to sit down with her and learn more. Smith is out with a new memoir, “Bread of Angels,” and is on tour for the 50th anniversary of her breakthrough album, “Horses.” We talk about that book and that album and so much more: the boundless curiosity that drives her; the books that shaped her; her childhood communion with a snapping turtle; what Andy Warhol was like; what color she thinks the soul is; and a lot more that’s hard even to describe. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Pan’s Labyrinth” by Guillermo del Toro Grimm’s Complete Fairy Tales [https://www.canterburyclassicsbooks.com/books/grimms-complete-fairy-tales-9781607103134/] by Jacob Grimm and Wilhelm Grimm Bread of Angels [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/249084/bread-of-angels-by-patti-smith/] by Patti Smith Just Kids [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/just-kids-patti-smith?variant=40827485978658] by Patti Smith “The Dark Blot [https://www.best-poems.net/g-rard-de-nerval/the-dark-blot.html]” by Gérard de Nerval “Genie [https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/54559/genie]” by Arthur Rimbaud “Guernica [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Guernica-by-Picasso]” by Pablo Picasso “The Last Supper [https://www.themodern.org/exhibition/andy-warhol-last-decade]” by Andy Warhol Book Recommendations: The Adventures of Pinocchio [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/653027/the-adventures-of-pinocchio-by-carlo-collodi-translated-with-an-introduction-and-notes-by-john-hooper-and-annakraczyna/] by Carlo Collodi Frankenstein [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Frankenstein/Mary-Shelley/9780743487580] by Mary Shelley The Poetry of Sylvia Plath [https://cup.columbia.edu/book/the-poetry-of-sylvia-plath/9780231124263/] Edited by Claire Brennan 2666 [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780312429218/2666/] by Roberto Bolaño Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Annika Robbins. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Michelle Harris, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Caryn Rose. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes and the Right’s ‘Groyper’ Problem

Is this the future of MAGA? Tucker Carlson’s interview with the white nationalist influencer Nick Fuentes has caused a firestorm on the right. Carlson and Fuentes’s friendly chat about American Jews — whether they fit into this country or were loyal to Israel above all — was the kind of conversation that for decades would have been unimaginable among mainstream figures in politics. And by crossing that line, Carlson was making a statement — about the power of Fuentes’s movement and the future of MAGA. To help me think through this, I wanted to talk to the political writer John Ganz. He’s studied the roots of antisemitism on the right and has followed the evolution of MAGA closely. He’s behind the newsletter Unpopular Front and the author of “When the Clock Broke: Con Men, Conspiracists, and How America Cracked Up in the Early 1990s.” This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Unpopular Front [https://www.unpopularfront.news/]” by John Ganz “Finding Neverland [https://newrepublic.com/article/156368/finding-neverland-conservative-quest-rid-trumpism]” by John Ganz “Groyperfication [https://www.unpopularfront.news/p/who-will-win-the-gop-civil-war]” by John Ganz Book Recommendations: Taking America Back [https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300260977/taking-america-back/] by David Austin Walsh Furious Minds [https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691255262/furious-minds?srsltid=AfmBOoqw3-gQvCfd-piWBwTyum7ugPlAakAFgsnumRK6g27RxT5WguV2] by Laura K. Field Prophets of Deceit [https://www.versobooks.com/products/936-prophets-of-deceit?srsltid=AfmBOorAF6_S9NTGGRSB0gMrS_6Hjfu8uX8pQ1qjxB-GrcUO-IpmvjWZ] by Norbert Guterman & Leo Lowenthal Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Ashley Braun. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.