Tried and Tested Podcast

Serious Games and Authentic Assessment with Jenn McNamara from BreakAway Games

In this episode of Tried and Tested, host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD,- ICE CCP, [https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabelle-gonthier-phd-ice-ccp-4556a210/] Chief Assessment Officer at PSI and ETS, sits down with Jenn McNamara, Vice President of Strategic Products and Partnerships at BreakAway Games. Recorded live at the ATP Conference, the conversation explores how serious games are being used to support authentic, performance based assessment across defense, healthcare, and professional credentialing programs. Jenn shares how game based environments can capture real world decision making, reduce traditional test effects, and provide richer evidence of readiness than item based assessments alone. The discussion also covers the role of AI in game design and assessment delivery, the importance of accessibility by design, and what emerging innovation trends signal about the future of assessment. What you’ll learn: * How “serious games” are defined and how they differ from surface level gamification * Why authenticity, particularly cognitive fidelity, matters more than visual realism in assessment design * What immersive, strategy based environments can reveal about real world decision making, stress, and readiness * How independent research and validation help make game based assessment credible and defensible in high stakes contexts * Where serious games are most effective in assessment programs, and where assessment leaders should be cautious * How AI is influencing the future of immersive assessment, including adaptive scenarios and content variation, while maintaining rigor and fairness Who should listen: * Credentialing and certification leaders exploring authentic or performance based assessment approaches * Assessment professionals seeking new ways to evaluate decision making, judgment, and applied skills * Psychometricians and assessment designers interested in emerging item types and validation models * Program owners responsible for accessibility, candidate experience, and exam integrity * Testing and education technology professionals tracking the role of serious games and AI in assessment About the Guest: Jenn McNamara [https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennmcnamara/] is Vice President of Strategic Products and Partnerships at BreakAway Games, focused on delivering immersive solutions for education, assessment, and performance support. With over 25 years of experience in cognitive psychology, serious games, and AI-driven systems research and development, Jenn is a recognized leader and trusted partner raising the standard of advanced, technology-driven learning and assessment for defense, healthcare, and corporate sectors. Jenn’s pioneering design and development approaches set the accessibility standard for serious games. She speaks frequently at conferences including I/ITSEC, ATP Innovations in Testing, Serious Play, and Games for Change. In volunteer support of the industry, Jenn also directs the nonprofit Serious Games Showcase & Challenge and serves in leadership roles with the NDIA Human Systems Conference, Serious Play Conference, and ATP Innovations in Testing Conference.

Libby Rodney from The Harris Poll on the 2026 ETS Human Progress Report: Adaptability, Credentials & Opportunity

This is our 50th episode of Tried & Tested and we’re marking the milestone with a conversation about what may be one of the biggest questions facing the workforce right now: how do people prove what they can do as change accelerates? Host Isabelle Gonthier [https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabelle-gonthier-phd-ice-ccp-4556a210/] welcomes Libby Rodney, Chief Strategy Officer at The Harris Poll, to unpack what “proof” looks like in today’s disrupted environment and why credentials are increasingly tied to confidence, mobility, and opportunity. Drawing on The Harris Poll [https://theharrispoll.com/] research behind the 2026 ETS Human Progress Report [https://www.ets.org/human-progress-report.html?__hstc=201084081.5e19a2a51e3a6dbe5dcf48d74f2f5d25.1754331657566.1777471034777.1777484651389.363&__hssc=201084081.1.1777484651389&__hsfp=96da213cf9f3fdc91e0b6fd48008d606], Libby Rodney explains how leaders can move beyond noisy narratives and toward signals that actually matter, especially as workers face rapid disruption, shifting skill demands, and rising pressure to demonstrate adaptability. Together, they explore the widening gap between interest and access, the need for clearer employer signals about what’s valued, and why the future of credentialing depends on trust, alignment, and measurable evidence, not just storytelling. What you’ll learn: * What “proof of skills” really means in a labor market shaped by constant disruption and why workers are seeking evidence they can carry across roles and industries. * How the 2026 ETS Human Progress Report was designed, including the role of benchmarking and how the focus evolved toward adaptability as a cornerstone theme. * Why credentials are rising in importance right now, including the connection between workplace anxiety and the need for verifiable evidence of capability. * What’s driving the demand vs. access gap (high interest, lower access), and the practical barriers that keep people from pursuing credentials. * Why employer clarity is the unlock: what workers need employers to specify about which credentials matter, and why ambiguity discourages investment before cost even enters the picture. * How AI is reshaping credential expectations, including why many workers want formal certification to verify AI skills, and why “using AI” isn’t the same as using it well. Who should listen: * Credentialing, certification, and assessment leaders designing programs that must earn trust and prove value. * Employers, HR, and workforce strategy teams deciding which skills and credentials matter most. * Education and training leaders working to close the gap between learning pathways and real-world opportunity. About the guest: A scenario planner, cultural strategist, and navigation expert, Libby Rodney [https://www.linkedin.com/in/libbyrodney/] serves as Chief Strategy Officer at The Harris Poll where she helps Fortune 100 executives decode uncertainty and navigate transformational change.  Creator of “The Next Big Think!” substack and co-host of “So Get This” podcast (new on Bubbler/iHeart Radio), her cultural intelligence framework has predicted major shifts including “quiet vacationing,” FOBO (fear of being obsolete), and the “lottery over logic economy.”  Libby has commanded global stages at Davos, Cannes Lions, SXSW, Forbes CMO summit, Ad Week, and CES, establishing her as the go-to cultural decoder for organizations seeking to see around corners.  Libby’s insights have been featured across major media outlets where she has become known for revealing not just what’s trending, but what companies must pay attention to in the next 18 months.

Closing the Modality Gap: How TOEFL Built Trust in Remote Testing

As questions around remote testing and test security continue to surface across the assessment landscape, how can programs move beyond perception and focus on evidence? In this episode of Tried and Tested, host Isabelle Gonthier [https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabelle-gonthier-phd-ice-ccp-4556a210/]is joined by Paul Gollash [https://www.linkedin.com/in/pgollash/], SVP of TOEFL and GRE at ETS, and Wally Dalrymple [https://www.linkedin.com/in/wallacedalrymple/], Chief Security Officer at PSI and ETS, for a timely conversation on trust, data, and delivery modalities. Together, they explore how the TOEFL program has evolved a layered security model across both test center and remote delivery. The result is measurable outcomes showing that differences between remote and test center delivery have narrowed to a minimal level. From identity verification and fraud indicators to data driven decision making and continuous improvement, this episode offers a practical and credible look at how security, scale, and trust come together in modern assessment programs. What you’ll learn: * Why remote testing and test center delivery have distinct risk profiles, and how purpose built security approaches for each modality strengthen overall test integrity * How the TOEFL program designed and evolved a layered security model that spans the full assessment lifecycle, from registration and identity verification through delivery, review, and continuous improvement * What layered security looks like in practice, including how multiple controls work together to deter fraud, detect risk, and protect score integrity when individual signals alone are insufficient * How ETS and PSI measure the real-world impact of specific security controls, including what the data reveals when individual layers are modified or removed * Why outcome based measures, such as score patterns and pass rate alignment, provide a more meaningful indicator of trust than incident counts or flagged events alone * How operating at global scale enables stronger pattern detection, faster response to emerging threats, and continuous refinement of security strategies across programs and modalities * How AI is influencing both sides of the equation, accelerating new forms of fraud while also strengthening detection, analysis, and decision-making within modern test security programs * What assessment leaders should consider as trust, security, and delivery models continue to evolve in an environment where risk, technology, and stakeholder expectations are constantly changing Who should listen: * Assessment, credentialing, and certification leaders responsible for program integrity and long term trust * Test security, fraud prevention, and risk professionals designing or evaluating security models across delivery modalities * Higher education institutions, regulators, and score accepting organizations seeking evidence based perspectives on remote testing outcomes * Program owners and product leaders balancing access, candidate experience, and rigorous security requirements * Organizations navigating concern around the credibility of remote English language testing and other high stakes assessments

Policy, Partnership, and Access: Massachusetts’ Approach to Adult Education

In this special HiSET edition of Tried and Tested, host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP [https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabelle-gonthier-phd-ice-ccp-4556a210/] welcomes vice president of the HiSET program Tanya Guerrero Haug, who sits down with Wyvonne Stevens‑Carter, Associate Commissioner for Public Adult Education at the Massachusetts Department of Elementary and Secondary Education. Recorded live at the HiSET Boston Roadshow, the conversation highlights how Massachusetts is expanding access to high school equivalency through statewide funding, flexible transcript policies, and partnerships that prioritize learner experience. Isabelle and Tanya also reflect on why the Massachusetts model stands out across the nation. From student ambassadors and staff pipelines to community‑driven innovation, this episode shows what is possible when policies remove barriers and adult learners are invited to lead. It is a compelling look at how assessment can open doors for individuals, families, and entire communities. What you’ll learn: * How Massachusetts funds high school equivalency testing statewide and why this increases access for learners. * Why the skills gap may actually be an investment gap and what this means for workforce development. * How student ambassadors and student‑to‑staff pipelines create new opportunities for adult learners. * The role partnerships play in strengthening adult education and supporting diverse learner needs. * Key policy decisions that made Massachusetts a national example in high school equivalency access. Who should listen: * Adult education leaders, instructors, and administrators * Workforce development and policy professionals * Credentialing and assessment partners working to improve access * Employers seeking to better understand the value adult learners bring * Anyone committed to building opportunity through education and assessment About the Guests Tanya Guerrero Haug [https://www.linkedin.com/in/tanyaghaug/], Vice President of HiSET, oversees the HiSET Program supporting the 30 states and territories that have adopted the HiSET. In this role, Tanya coordinates with the PSI HiSET Program teams, the HiSET Board, state directors and administrators, adult education providers, test centers, employers, and higher education institutions. Tanya’s team is directly responsible for HiSET contracts and partnerships, the HiSET suite of products, and adult education outreach. She oversees the HiSET webinars and conferences to keep professional development and program updates accessible. For more than 20 years, she has demonstrated her commitment to education by the various positions she has held in the industry and by her active community service. Wyvonne Stevens Carter [https://www.linkedin.com/in/wyvonne-stevens-carter-5431021b7/] is a senior education and workforce systems leader with deep expertise in adult education policy, cross agency alignment, and public investment strategy. As Associate Commissioner of Adult and Community Learning Services at the Massachusetts Department of Elementary and Secondary Education, she leads statewide efforts to strengthen adult learning systems that advance economic mobility, workforce readiness, and civic participation. Her work centers on designing and operating large scale public systems, aligning state and federal policy, funding, and accountability to ensure adult learners can access high quality pathways into postsecondary education, credentials, and family sustaining employment. She oversees complex funding portfolios, guides competitive procurements and performance based initiatives, and translates policy into clear operational frameworks that support implementation at scale. She brings particular strengths in state and federal policy implementation across adult education, workforce, and career pathways; systems integration spanning education, workforce development, and economic development; equity driven strategy and governance; fiscal oversight and public investment stewardship; data informed accountability and continuous improvement; and partnership development with government agencies, employers, higher education, and community organizations.

The Future of Graduate Admissions and Assessment: Insights from GMAC’s Ashok Sarathy

In this episode of Tried and Tested, host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP [https://www.linkedin.com/in/isabelle-gonthier-phd-ice-ccp-4556a210/], speaks with Ashok Sarathy, Vice President of Assessment Products at GMAC, about the evolving role of assessment in global graduate management education. Drawing on more than two decades in the assessment industry, Ashok shares how GMAC has continuously adapted the GMAT and its broader assessment portfolio to meet changing candidate, institutional, and workforce needs. Recorded live in India during the i-ATP conference, the conversation explores global student mobility, holistic admissions, and the growing pressure on assessments to be more flexible, digital, and candidate-centered, while still maintaining rigor. Ashok discusses how technology and AI can improve preparation, fairness, and efficiency, while also highlighting where caution and strong governance remain essential. What you’ll learn: * How GMAC approaches the balance between assessment rigor and candidate experience * Why holistic admissions models are reshaping the role of standardized testing * Key barriers students face when pursuing global graduate management education * How assessments can better reflect real-world and workforce-relevant skills * Where AI can enhance personalization, scale, and fairness in assessment design * Why human-in-the-loop oversight remains critical when applying AI in testing * What the future of admission testing may look like, including lower-stakes pathways Who should listen: * Assessment and testing professionals navigating digital and AI-enabled change * Higher education leaders involved in admissions and student mobility strategy * Credentialing and assessment program owners balancing rigor and experience * Test development and product leaders responsible for portfolio strategy * Organizations exploring the future of admissions testing and candidate pathways About the Guest: Ashok Sarathy [https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashok-sarathy-867552/] is Vice President, Assessment Products at GMAC and a former Chair of the Board of Directors of the Association of Test Publishers (ATP). At GMAC he is responsible for establishing the Assessment Portfolio Strategy, identifying opportunities for new Assessments and has P&L responsibility of the portfolio. Ashok has spent than 22 years in the assessment industry, initially enabling GMAC to transition the development and the delivery of the GMAT exam to new partners and in the process redefined the digital user experience associated with taking the GMAT exam. He implemented several innovations to improve the integrity of the GMAT Test. Later he launched the Next Generation GMAT exam, adding a new “Integrated Reasoning” section to the exam with input from faculty at business schools. He then assumed a product management role responsible for the P&L of the key products within the council’s assessment portfolio, launching new assessments like the NMAT exam and other candidate-friendly enhancements that enabled test takers to embark on their journey towards a management career. He developed and implemented the strategy to overhaul the supply chain necessary to deliver the portfolio of Assessment Products to drive market relevance, establish core capabilities and drive operational effectiveness. In 2020 he led the move to have GMAC’s suite of Assessment Products (the GMAT, the NMAT and the Executive Assessment) delivered online at the onset of COVID-19. He also evolved the customer care model to drive a timely and more satisfying response to candidate inquiries. Managing the intersection between applicants and management institutions, Ashok is always looking to develop and enhance assessments that are relevant, efficient and offer great test taking experience.