The Ezra Klein Show

Every Israeli-Palestinian peace deal has failed. Could Trump’s be any different? On Oct. 10, the Israeli cabinet approved a cease-fire deal brokered by the Trump administration, Turkey and Qatar. Since then, the living Israeli hostages have come home. Nearly 2,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israel have been freed. Israeli forces have partially withdrawn from the Gaza Strip, and they’re allowing in more desperately needed aid. This is finally, hopefully, the end of this war. But that was just the first part of the deal. The next phase is a lot more ambitious — and ambiguous. And while President Trump said the region would now “live, God willing, in peace for all eternity,” history would suggest otherwise. Robert Malley has worked on Middle East policy under President Barack Obama, President Joe Biden and President Bill Clinton. Hussein Agha negotiated on the Palestinian side, working under both Yasir Arafat, the first president of the Palestinian Authority, and the P.A.’s current president, Mahmoud Abbas. Together they wrote a sweeping new history of attempts at peace, “Tomorrow Is Yesterday: Life, Death, and the Pursuit of Peace in Israel/Palestine.” They join me to examine what could go right — or wrong — as the rest of the deal takes shape. Mentioned: Tomorrow Is Yesterday [https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374617127/tomorrowisyesterday/] by Hussein Agha and Robert Malley Book Recommendations: One Day, Everyone Will Have Always Been Against This [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/777485/one-day-everyone-will-have-always-been-against-this-by-omar-el-akkad/] by Omar El Akkad Say Nothing [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/90837/say-nothing-by-patrick-radden-keefe/] by Patrick Radden Keefe Dirty Hands by Jean-Paul Sartre The Just Assassins by Albert Camus The History of the Peloponnesian War [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/thucydides/the-history-of-the-peloponnesian-war/9781541603387/?lens=basic-books] by Thucydides The Man Without Qualities [https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/robert-musil/the-man-without-qualities/9781447289432] by Robert Musil Hollywood Babylon [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/3976/hollywood-babylon-by-kenneth-anger/] by Kenneth Anger Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Jack McCordick. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Chris Wood and Ashley Clivery. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Eliezer Yudkowsky is as afraid as you could possibly be. He makes his case. Yudkowsky is a pioneer of A.I. safety research, who started warning about the existential risks of the technology decades ago, – influencing a lot of leading figures in the field. But over the last couple of years, talk of an A.I. apocalypse has become a little passé. Many of the people Yudkowsky influenced have gone on to work for A.I. companies, and those companies are racing ahead to build the superintelligent systems Yudkowsky thought humans should never create. But Yudkowsky is still out there sounding the alarm. He has a new book out, co-written with Nate Soares, “If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies,” trying to warn the world before it’s too late. So what does Yudkowsky see that most of us don’t? What makes him so certain? And why does he think he hasn’t been able to persuade more people? Mentioned: Oversight of A.I.: Rules for Artificial Intelligence [https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/committee-activity/hearings/oversight-of-ai-rules-for-artificial-intelligence] If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/eliezer-yudkowsky/if-anyone-builds-it-everyone-dies/9780316595643/?lens=little-brown] by Eliezer Yudkowsky and Nate Soares “A Teen Was Suicidal. ChatGPT Was the Friend He Confided In. [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/26/technology/chatgpt-openai-suicide.html]” by Kashmir Hill Book Recommendations: A Step Farther Out by Jerry Pournelle Judgment under Uncertainty [https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/judgment-under-uncertainty/6F9E814794E08EC43D426E480A4B412C] by Daniel Kahneman, Paul Slovic, and Amos Tversky Probability Theory [https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/probability-theory/9CA08E224FF30123304E6D8935CF1A99] by E. T. Jaynes Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Helen Toner and Jeffrey Ladish. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The government shutdown is the Democrats’ first big strategic bet of Trump’s term. Not everyone in the party agreed that shutting down the government was the right move or that health care was the right message. So why did they ultimately pick this fight? What are the risks? And what could Democrats learn here that might help shape their strategy for the midterms and beyond? Jon Favreau, a former Obama speechwriter and a current co-host of “Pod Save America,” joins me to discuss. Mentioned: "Off Message [https://www.offmessage.net/?utm_campaign=profile_chips]” by Brian Beutler “What the Shutdown Is Really About [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/08/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-neera-tanden.html]” by Ezra Klein Book Recommendations: Civil Resistance [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/civil-resistance-9780190244408?cc=us&lang=en&] by Erica Chenoweth Stride Toward Freedom [https://www.beacon.org/Stride-Toward-Freedom-P803.aspx] by Martin Luther King Jr. The Radical Fund [https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Radical-Fund/John-Fabian-Witt/9781476765877] by John Fabian Witt Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

There’s a serious high-stakes policy fight at the heart of this. The Democrats didn’t pick a fight over authoritarianism or tariffs or masked immigration agents in the streets. They picked one over health care. And the issue here is very real. Huge health insurance subsidies passed under President Joe Biden are set to expire at the end of this year, threatening to make health care premiums skyrocket and kick millions off their insurance. Neera Tanden was one of the architects of the Affordable Care Act and has worked in Democratic policymaking for decades. She is the president of the Center for American Progress and was a director of Biden’s Domestic Policy Council. I asked her on the show to lay out the policy stakes of the shutdown and what a deal might look like. Mentioned: KFF Health Tracking Poll [https://www.kff.org/affordable-care-act/kff-health-tracking-poll-public-weighs-political-consequences-of-health-policy-legislation/] The Time Tax [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-time-tax-annie-lowrey] by Annie Lowrey One Big Beautiful Bill Act [https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/1/text] Book Recommendations: Why Nations Fail [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/205014/why-nations-fail-by-daron-acemoglu-and-james-a-robinson/] by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson The Sirens’ Call [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/719661/the-sirens-call-by-chris-hayes/] by Chris Hayes End Times [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/703238/end-times-by-peter-turchin/] by Peter Turchin Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Brian Eno’s music opens up worlds I love to step into during trying times. And this conversation with Eno did the same thing. Eno is a trailblazing musician and producer who’s worked on seminal records by U2, David Bowie, the Talking Heads and Coldplay, among others. But Eno isn’t just a great collaborator with other artists; he’s also a great collaborator with machines. He’s been experimenting with music technology for decades. Long before we started worrying about ChatGPT replacing human creativity, Eno was tinkering with generative systems to pioneer ambient music – a genre that has deeply influenced how we listen to music today. Eno’s use (and playful misuse) of technology has expanded the possibilities of what music and sound can be. Many of you emailed in asking for a break from the news. Here it is. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: What Art Does [https://www.faber.co.uk/product/9780571395514-what-art-does-an-unfinished-theory/?srsltid=AfmBOoof8KJO5BMKixtU0NGYyw8OV7o0j1t19XH5VuLJ6ovtbyD5HTzq] by Brian Eno and Bette Adriaanse East West Street [https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/227917/east-west-street-by-philippe-sands/] by Philippe Sands Silence [https://www.weslpress.org/9780819573650/silence/] by John Cage Book Recommendations: Printing and the Mind of Man edited by John Carter and Percy H. Muir A Pattern Language [https://global.oup.com/academic/product/a-pattern-language-9780195019193?cc=us&lang=en&] by Christopher Alexander Naples ’44 [https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/norman-lewis/naples-44/9780306835254/?lens=grand-central-publishing] by Norman Lewis Music Recommendations: The Rural Blues [https://folkways.si.edu/rural-blues-a-study-of-the-vocal-and-instrumental-resources/music/album/smithsonian] “The Velvet Underground” by the Velvet Underground [https://www.discogs.com/release/6777637-The-Velvet-Underground-The-Velvet-Underground] The Consolers [https://www.discogs.com/artist/1262916-The-Consolers] Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast [https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast], and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html]. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. Transcript editing by Sarah Murphy. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Alyssa Jane Moxley, Sophie Abramowitz, Geeta Dayal, Jack Hamilton and Victor Szabo. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts [http://nytimes.com/podcasts] or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher [https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher]. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.