Podcast - SURF MASTERY

137 James Russell - Mad Surf Stories

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/20ef6c3a-4b6b-451a-9598-1fd1021840ef/Surf+Mastery+Podcast+James+Russell+Mad+surf+stories.png?format=1000w] What would you do if one wild surf story could change how you travel, train, and survive in the ocean? Michael talks with author James Russell about the real spark behind his podcast; Mad Surf Stories - those unforgettable car park conversations where local surfers share the kind of stories that never make the mainstream. From near-death experiences and ocean rescues to fear, aging, flow state, and the lessons hidden inside heavy surf moments, this conversation speaks to anyone who loves the ocean and wants to surf smarter, safer, and longer. You’ll hear how storytelling preserves local surf lore, why surfers should take safety gear more seriously, and what happens when experience, fear, and age all collide in the lineup. James also shares insights from his own surfing life, his writing, and the deeper emotional threads that run through survival stories at sea. Discover why real surf stories are often the best source of practical wisdom and hard-earned safety lessons You’ll learn how fear, preparation, and mindset shape performance in the water, especially as surfers get older. You’ll get a deeper appreciation for the psychology, risk, and addictive beauty of surfing and surf culture. Press play to hear the stories, lessons, and mindset shifts that could help you surf with more awareness, confidence, and respect for the ocean. James' Podcast "Mad Surf Stories" - https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/mad-surf-stories-podcast/id1861306952 [https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/mad-surf-stories-podcast/id1861306952] https://open.spotify.com/show/4tHYvt9btBdGgB5rwKv0jv?si=e69d777c95bf46cb [https://open.spotify.com/show/4tHYvt9btBdGgB5rwKv0jv?si=e69d777c95bf46cb] https://youtube.com/@madsurfstories?si=BH8FCHs6D_4RADAp [https://youtube.com/@madsurfstories?si=BH8FCHs6D_4RADAp] James' website: https://dragonbrothersbooks.com [https://dragonbrothersbooks.com/] Transcript: What inspired you to start the podcast? Yeah, , I guess it's those car park conversations with surfers, , where you talk to somebody and they just tell you something crazy that's happened to someone. And I thought. That's pretty cool. Like, to, to mine those stories would be awesome to be able to do that. , Yeah, I think that's kind of it really. 'cause they're, they're all local, you know, there's those legendary stories that might be, a Piha story or whatever, and everyone Piha knows it, but nobody else does. Hmm. And , when you get a bit long in the tooth, like me, you, you come across quite a few of them. Yeah. But yeah, the, the challenges to, , to get people to talk really. 'cause some of the surfers are like, , maybe they've had a shocker and they're a bit ashamed of it. Mm. So that's, that's the challenge really. But, , actually it's been really interesting 'cause a lot of the, , a lot of the kind of stories, there's been some quite good lessons come out of them, I think for, for listeners or for me or for whoever. Oh, definitely. . Good examples like Elliot Foot. And he, , suggested that if you're going to Indo and you're gonna be taking these ferries between islands, you get yourself an E and you buy that ether in your own country rather than in Indonesia. 'cause then when it pings, it goes back to your own country and you know, those people are gonna. Be on top of it and they're gonna call the into authorities. And I thought, you know, that's gold. That sort of info is, is gold, you know? Yeah, definitely. That he was swimming for two days, you know? Yeah. And, and it would've been. I've already got one of those. 'cause I do a bit of, bit of hunting, so I always have one in, in the backpack. You, you are almost, you're almost silly not to have one nowadays with given what we know. And you just gotta realize that, I mean, any sort of tourism operator in most countries, you know, there's regulations and you know that the captain of the boat will have one of those on them, and there's regular maintenance schedules of their equipment, blah, blah. None of that happens in Indonesia. So you, you kind of gotta have one of those with you just in case. Yeah, but keep in mind, Michael, you've, you are coming from the point, you know, you go, you're a hunter, so you go hunting and you bring this with you. I hadn't even considered that. Like, I think I've, I think they only came on my radar about two years ago when I was in an outdoor shop and I saw one. I was like, what's that? So I, I didn't even know what they were really, because I've never, you know, I've never done that much stuff. I've done, you know, I've done some stuff in the mountains, but I've been with other guys that, you know, they've probably got one in their pack, but they don't even think to mention it to me. So. Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't even think about it. And plus they're quite expensive. Right. How much do you pay for one? , Five, 600, something like that. Yeah, I think, I think I was 400 and it's just a basic e perb, like a signal. But , you can get, Garmin have devices that are similar but a little bit bigger that actually double as satellite phones, so. Right. You, even if you're out outside of normal signal and your iPhone's not gonna work, you've still got GPS signal. So you can immediately tell where you are and you can send a signal out, you can text message, I think you can even call on some of the more modern ones, and they're only a couple hundred bucks more and they have, you know, multiple uses. Now it's just be good to have one just in your house, you know? Yeah. No, it's good. I, um, I haven't had a, a big. A little while, but I think I might make the investment before I do, you know? Yeah, it's funny. Surfers are funny, aren't they? You spend 1200 bucks on a new board, but yeah, I'm not gonna spend 800 bucks on a safety device that'll last, last me a lifetime in case something happens. Well, come on. Yeah. Yeah. And by our nature, you know, we do, we go to these places and I mean, I guess no one's gonna surf with one, but, I wonder, you know, maybe, maybe one day that's, that could be a, that could be a good product to have when you're surfing. You know, something that if they get smaller and smaller, something that you could tuck into your wetsuit or something. Yeah, , there's a guy here in Auckland that I've been trying to get a hold of, he was out surfing at Kar Beach and it was big and he got swept down the coast and he ended up just getting battered into the rocks like terribly, like the bones were sticking out of the wounds. Oh. And he's so far hasn't agreed to talk to me, but hopefully he will. 'cause it's an amazing story. He ended up getting stranded on the rocks, , and the tide was coming in and he thought, okay, I'm just gonna have to jump back off and get back into this. And did that. He ended up getting washed down to another beach and was so broken up he couldn't even stand. He just had to scratch out a giant help in the sand, which was seen by some people walking along the clifftop. Oh wow. And that's how he got rescued, you know. Oh, wow. Gnarly man. Incredible. Yeah, yeah. There's some crazy stories out there and no, it's pretty awesome that you're, you're doing this I've listened to every episode , and I think it's, I think it's awesome. Yeah. Great, nice to hear. Yeah. So let's start from the beginning, right? When did you start surfing? I was a late starter I think. Like, you too, right? I started after I left school, I was down at Otago University. , And for your listeners that, dunno where that is, that's, , the bottom of New Zealand. So it's cold and plenty of swell from the Southern Ocean. . I was a pretty capable swimmer, pretty decent in the water, but yeah, never surfed, kind of never been on my radar and just fell in with a group of lads that were surfers. And, , grabbed a, got a border and a wedding and never looked back. Just loved it. Yeah. Ah, cold water. I spent a lot of time like it, , I spent so many years just cartwheeling down the face of huge waves , and just freezing cold, you know, holes in my wetsuit kind of stuff. Snowing on the beach sometimes. So I don't think I learned very quickly like it was a challenging situation to learn down there. 'cause there's. You know, it's often big, but, yeah, a lot of fun. Yeah, it's an amazing, amazing spot. Great waves. Oh yeah, describe to me your current relationship with the ocean and surfing. Well, I'm a writer, an author, so I've primarily of children's books. But, these two here are my, , I've got two, , novels for adults as opposed to adult novels, but those are both surf. Novels and they were my, , lockdown project really during COVID. , And because I'm an author, I can drop everything and go surfing whenever I like. I, I'm full-time. So, , I tend to do that. And then I'll, you know, I might work late at night or on the weekend or whatever, but if the surf's good, I can go. So, living in Auckland means you got access within an hour to both coasts. . Which is cool. We haven't had much on the east coast lately, but , west Coast is pretty consistent, and weirdly you'd think that Auckland would be quite crowded, but there's so many options, you know, so it's actually not that bad. You can usually find a wave on your own or just with a couple others. So yeah, it's good. It's a good place to live. It's not incredible surf, but yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah. I lived in Auckland for a couple of years and got heaps of good relatively uncrowded waves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a few secret spots. , I've got one on the east coast that you can only get to by boat, so when there's swell I'll go there. Yep. , And I've never, never surfed it with anybody else, so I, that's my, , I find the older I get the, the less I, uh, or the more I avoid crowds. So I don't tend to go to Raglin or any of those places very much. , Just look for the spots that I know will be good and I don't mind if they take me a little bit of extra time to get there, a bit of a hike or boat ride or whatever. Yeah. So, uh, it's worth it, , and plus I've got the time and the means, you know, so it's good. Yeah. Adventure surfing. Yeah, yeah, I should get the right. I went surfing and uh, I went surfing at the spot on the west coast. , And I was out, I was on my own. It was cooking, it was really good. And, um, just small, but really punchy. And, and then I looked, I looked back on the beach and the beach was kind of a long way away. It was a long sort of. Long flat beach and then suddenly drops off. I saw this log where I thought was a log and there was heaps of seagulls on top of it, and I thought, oh yeah, that's interesting. And then all these people came around, the headland are wearing hazmat suits and carrying these big, you know, machetes and all kinds of stuff. And , it turns out the log was a enormous sperm whale. That had washed up on the beach. Mm. And one of my mates is a, shark specialist and a under underwater cameraman. And he gave me, he told me, he said, don't surf there. Don't surf there for the next month or more. Because when the whales die on the beach, all of the kind of juices flow down into the sand and leach out into the sea. And the sharks just love it, you know? Oh yeah. And I've seen sharks a couple of times at this place before. , But it was, again, a bit of a learning for me. You know, I had no idea that that was the case. That yeah, I mean, it, it makes sense really. But I didn't, I thought if they washed right, it was right up past the, , on the high tide mark. I thought if it was up there all good, you know, I never really thought of the breakdown of the animal and how it goes out to see, you know? Yeah. That's another, another. Good. I didn't know that either actually. Yeah. Yeah. Avoid it. Avoid it until it's long rotted and gone, you know? Yeah. What were they doing in Hazmats when? Oh, that was the iwi, you know, that was the, um, iwi. They were up from re and they were coming down and they were, , taking the jawbone of the whale out for carving. Um, but all the big chunks of blubber just get buried on the beach, so that all just breaks down and seeps out into the water. Oh, gnarly. So do you have any personal mad surf stories? Uh, nothing crazy, . Just the normal getting whipped out in a rip and freaking myself out for 20 minutes until I figure out a way to get back in. Just stuff like that, you know? Yeah. A few, uh, a few rescues have overturned kayaks and bits and pieces. Oh yeah. But I reckon most, I reckon most surfers have saved a few people, you know? Mm. Yeah. I think we're a, I think we're a, , and in fact, I dunno if you listened to my episode with, um, will Allen, he's the, he was a doctor, he was a trainee doctor at the time in Dunedin. And a surfer. And he did this incredible rescue, , off Tyre mouth where they were just about to get in the water and they saw there was an upturn boat and they went out to it. , Rescued a mom, a dad, and there was a, a young 12-year-old girl who was, whose life check the boat was completely upside down their life check. It was caught on something in the boat and he had to free her up. Then mouth to mouth with her on the way and CPR on the way back to shore. And unfortunately, one of the, , there was a baby still caught in the boat, , who died. But um, yeah, so he's gone on to do a lot of work, , around drowning. , And a lot of training of surfers because he realizes that, , surfers are often the ones that come across these people first or may drag them out of the water first. So, yeah, that, that was an interesting one. . And I think, you know, it's like, I mean, I guess most people do a, a first aid course probably, , from time to time, you know, but as a surfer, having that staff and having that knowledge is. You know, good chance you'll get to use it at some point. Yeah, I did all that stuff. I, as a qualified surf coach in Australia, went through all that stuff and, and then of course the breath hold training stuff for bigger waves. A lot of that sort of incorporated in it too, so I've never had to use it, I don't think, per se. I can't think of an instance where I have had,, but invaluable, , information to, to have for sure. 'cause otherwise you just feel helpless. Right. And that's even worse. Yeah. Potentially. But yeah, that was, that was for sure. Yeah. That was an hourly story. Yeah. I listened to that one on the weekend actually. I've listened to all of them. Yeah. There's been some pretty heavy, , kind of psychological implications from a lot of these guys that I've spoken to. Daniel Pool, who was caught in the Indian Ocean, the tsunami, the Boxing Day Tsunami. . When he had to, , when he had to wa he was kind of looking after his group of people and he walked past, he had to walk past a bust that had been overturned possibly with people in it, you know, and he still thinks about it to this day, whether. He should have peeled off and tried to help those people rather than looking after his own group. You know? 'cause he kind of, he was kind of leading them really, and looking after them. Yeah. But yeah, a lot of, a lot of hard stuff to deal with, you know, and that And Will Ellen having to deal with the loss of that baby? , Yeah, it's heavy. Some of the stories have been so heavy, like they've gone a whole lot deeper than I ever kind of thought, you know? Yeah, I need to, I need to uh, get a few more people, , that just have tales of awesome exploration. , I don't know, maybe taking a yacht through window or something like that, or traveling the African coast or whatever. 'cause most of them have been pretty heavy, , disasters. Really? Yeah. They have been. Yeah. But they're good. Like what, what's the South African guy who was like. His was the most gnarly, right. I reckon in, yeah. Turns survival. Yeah. Brett Archibald. Yeah. Yeah. His survival story. Wow. Like and he is such a good storytelling. Yeah. Elliot and his mates. Yeah. Elliot and his mates had surfboards and they did two days and he did, he didn't have one. Right. So he just fell overboard when he was. He was throwing up on deck from a bad Cals only. Yeah. And then he blacked out and fell overboard. It's terrible. Oh yeah. Goodness. Oh, , his uniqueness of character is probably what saves him ultimately, right? Yeah. Yeah. He would just, he would give up and then he'd go, no, I'm not giving up. And he'd, you'd swim to the surface again, you know? Yeah. It's incredible. Even the doctor said, like, what? He purposely swam into some jellyfish 'cause he wanted to give up and that's, you know, that allergic reaction gave him an adrenaline rush, which then made him fight again. Yeah. You know, sends you on things like that. Like, like what, what a story. I came across his story on a, on another podcast and. I was blown away by it, but it was kind, it was called, um, and it's a good one to listen to. It's called Real survival stories. Dunno if you've come across it, but, you know, guys getting caught in the mountains or, you know, their hang gliding and their glider gets blown up into a cloud or all this mad stuff. It's really good. But, , but the, the host of that podcast, um, this guy John Hopkins, he pretty much tells the story and then just drops in little, , little bits of recordings from the person that happened to. But I really liked Brett telling that story in his own words, you know? . It was, he's quite, quite a character, you know, and he's a good sense of humor, but he is just to hear, you know, that, that, that's the thing, like those stories in the carpark, when you hear it from the horse's mouth, it's just like, whoa. It just blows you away. Oh yeah. There's another guy, there's another guy I wanna get hold of that, , that I don't even know his name. I can't even, I, I haven't been able to track him down like this. Never made, I don't think it ever made the news or anything, but. There's a place called Lake Ferry up in, , near Palace Bay. Bottom of the North Island. Yep. And it's, I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's just the steepest, gnarliest beach. And when the waves like, you know, the, you sort of need the, , the water to empty out of this lake to create a little bar for the waves to break on. And then. That'll get blocked up again and the waves will wash this bar away and then it's just pounding on the beach. But the problem with it is like, the waves can be amazing, but the problem is when you go to go in, because the, the beach is so steep, the waves just rear up right on the beach, slam into these stones and then suck back out. So you gotta time it perfectly to get up the beach. And I had a friend that went out on like a three foot day, three, four foot day, and he said it took him 20 minutes to get in. And there was a guy that, , went out, it was like eight foot and he just couldn't get in. And it took, he was out there for hours, people, and he, his board broke and then people chucked him another one and it was just mayhem and he couldn't get in. I think, I think they send a chop to get him out of the water in the end, like he couldn't get in. Yep. Wow. Crazy stuff. Yeah. So if you hear of him, Dylan might wanna talk to him. Yeah. Well may maybe he's listening in and he'll reach out. Yeah. Yeah. We surf, there's a similar, not as, the beach isn't as steep here along Marine Parade, but it is very steep shingle and we have river mouths. Yeah. That when the river floods, it pushes a, a u-shaped, , barreling wave or bar out there for the whale waves to barrel on. And the waves get Really? Yeah. I've surfed, I've surfed. I know the one you're talking about. I've surfed. , That one. , There's a good story there too. Um, a young fellow who got whipped out in the, uh, in the river, and they picked him up 17 kilometers out to sea. Oh, wow. He's yet to talk to me too. Yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, wow. You haven't heard that one? I thought that was legendary in your area. Oh, it doesn't, it doesn't ring a bell, but I'm not surprised. Yeah, well it was crack of dawn, you see, and he was on his own and it had been pouring with rain and the river was honking. You know, you gotta swim across the river or paddle across the river to get to the, to this break you're talking about. Yeah. And he just didn't make the other side. He just oof gone. Yep. And next thing. And it was just howling offshore and he, he was almost blind when they picked him up. There's some footage of a, of the helicopter coming to get him. So someone was filming on the as they came in to pick him up. Yeah. And he was 17 Ks off offshore. Oh, wow. And he tried to paddle to Cape Kidnappers and tried all kinds of stuff and just, just got nowhere. Oh, gnarly. Oh yeah. There's a lot of water coming out of those rivers when they flood, man. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I learned a pretty hard lesson there. You, you need the water for the bar, don't you? Exactly. Yeah, . Oh yeah. When I was younger, I remember pulling up to a river mouth and it was flooded and there was a nice swell running, and the waves looked like they were pumping, like just top to bottom barrel, like pitch black inside the barrel. It's how you know, like the kind of pitches you draw at school. Yeah, and there was no one surfing. And I was like, okay, I am out there. And I'd probably only been surfing for maybe three, four, maybe five years. And this was back when I was young. And i'd broken my leash, so the only leash, leg rope I had. Was was a longboard leash that had been stretched out, must have been 11 foot long, but it was the only le leg rope that I had. And I was like, I'm out there paddled across. And I just remember paddling into my first attempt, or the only attempt, the first wave. And because the, the rivers. Pushing out and it creates the bar for the wave to break on, break on, but it actually creates a lot of draw. So it kind of breaks like an extreme, extreme rip bowl, which makes the wave better and more rippable and when it's manageable, but it also makes it a lot harder to paddle into. Yeah. And I was so excited 'cause the waves looked pumping and I was inexperienced and I tried to paddle into this wave and immediately just went over the handlebars, slammed down into the gravel, and then I'm, now I'm in a flooded river. Getting sucked underneath and then the surfboard wraps around me like this and around my arms. 'cause I'd, I went to go and, you know, put my hands over my head, but I didn't have time. 'cause by the time my arms got to here, the surf, the leash, the leg ropes wrapped around my arms couldn't move. Starting, it's pulling tight and then the surfboard's like doing this 'cause it's wrapped around me. It's here. I've still got a scar on my nose from it, so I'm getting, I'm wrapped up in my own leg rope of , couldn't move. My arms being dragged along the gravel bottom on a flooded river. Seconds after I thought I was gonna get the best barrel of my life. And yeah, I thought it was gone. I thought that was it. I couldn't move. That's cool. I'm getting dragged under. I don't know how long I was under for, um, it was probably only 30 seconds, but it felt like minutes and I guess eventually I just got to a point where the river started to dissipate into the ocean. , And the tension on the leg rope started to ease and I was able to wriggle free and swim up. I came up and everything was, like I had red glasses on and I didn't, you know, I didn't breathe in any water or anything. I was, I ended up being fine, but it was, yeah, you're on the edge. It was an intense experience. It was a hard lesson to learn. Yeah, I reckon that's freakish. That is freakish. Yeah. Actually, I listened to one of your episodes, there just the other day. , And it was, can you still get better when you're, you know, when you're getting old? Because I'm 50, what am I 52 now? And I reckon I've kind of been getting better because I started late. I don't think I got to that really good level. It took me a long time. So I, I don't know, maybe it's a good thing to start late 'cause it is quite enjoyable thinking that you're still getting better even when you're like. Nearly 50, but I reckon that's changed and started to go downhill a bit for sure in the last three years. But your episode was quite inspiring, but my boy, I've got two boys, one's 18, one's 16, and, uh, they like a bit of juice now, you know? And the last time I went out with the two of them, it was big, you know, it was gruy and I got absolutely owned. I got a, got a huge one. Wiped out on a big one and then got two or three really beautiful ones right on the head, like they're kind of progressively smaller, these waves as I was coming in, which meant they just landed right on me and shit. I was like, oh my, am I gonna die here? Like I was actually really, really worried and I cut. I just groveled and had to sit on the beach for a little while to collect myself, but it was quite a lesson. I was like, oh, could you know, 10 years ago that would've been all right? It would've been fine. It would've been rattled, but. I was like, oh, that was close. You know, I was seeing stars here. Yeah. So that's, yeah. Getting old sucks. What are you gonna do? Yeah, it does, it does. But I mean, I, if you're gonna surf waves of consequence, you you have to train for it, don't we? I don't think at any age. I don't think it's escapable at any age. Obviously when you're young, you're, you know, a bit more rubbery and, and fit naturally. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you found that episode inspiring. Yeah, tell me though, your breath hold. Can you increase your breath hold when you're my age? Of course. Yeah. Yeah, think so? Oh, definitely a hundred percent. I used to be able to do like two minutes underwater or even a little more, you know, 60 meters in a pool or something. But now that's, yeah, I don't know. I can't do anything like that. You triple. Quadruple your breath. Hold within one training session if you're, if you want to. I've done that with Nam Baldwin. A lot of it's just mindset and having the ability to Yeah. Right. To control your nervous system. 'cause what uses up, what uses up all the oxygen is you freaking out. Yeah. Really. So if you, which is what I was doing. Yeah. Yeah. So going through a course. Like I, I went through back in the day with, with Nam where, you know, you sit down for a couple hours and you go through the science and then you jump in the pool and you go through the practicalities and you put it into practice. Just changes the game really. So the answer is yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, definitely. But, you know, go need to come over and have a session with you. Like I, I, I get quite, I'm quite fascinated with that fear side of things, i've done loads of sports, but I've never, I think surfing is the one that's given me the greatest level of fear. 'cause I mean, you know, I've done, I've, I've skied to a pretty high level and we were jumping off some pretty high stuff, but you sit at the top and you can, you can check all the factors and then you can psych yourself up and then you can go, you know? , But with, and I've done some whitewater kayaking, which was kind of scary, like when you go over waterfalls and things, but. Surfing's a bit more outta control, right? 'cause you can't, you don't know what's gonna happen when you paddle over that wave and see what's coming at you. There's no control there. Even with a river and you're kayaking, you can sit up above a rapid for a while and get yourself sorted, pick your line, all of that stuff. But, and, and you know that, that water is, even though you know, surfing is kind of a unique sport, and that two things are moving you and the medium that you are, you know, that you are working in and kayaking. It's moving as well, but it's moving in a uniform way. It doesn't, doesn't change, but waves, they're moving along and the, the bathymetry of the bottom changes, suddenly the just, , the bottom will drop out or whatever will happen. . But that, that fear is, um, I've always found it fascinating. You know, I've never been a big wave rider, really. You know, I'm pretty uncomfortable once it gets up, past six foot, to be honest, like I'm like. I'm, I'm happy there, but anything bigger than that, I'm like, okay, leave this to the big boys and that, and I just can't believe, I, I just can't fathom how guys can go out and 15, 20 foot, you know? I just, I don't even, it doesn't even compute for me. Oh, yeah. Like, I'm, I'm okay with it. I don't really want to do that, but I just can't believe how brave some people are. You know? But I guess that's, it's doing all those things right? Putting the training in place and doing the psychological stuff and getting the breath hold and the whole thing. It doesn't just happen. You gotta build up to it. Yeah, there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. I've only really done it once where I surfed an outer reef that was, you know, triple overhead. And when you surf the outer reefs, the swell itself is just moving so much faster. So it, it's, it's almost like a different sport. And I trained for, I was in the gym, you know, three times a week for a year doing breath holding courses and training and. To leading up towards that winter to surf one of these swells. And I mean, I, I don't think I'd ever do it again. I don't regret nothing happened, nothing bad happened. , I got some of the best waves of my life and surfed the, some of the biggest waves of my life. But the come down the next day, like, yeah. The body obviously really sore 'cause you're getting thrown around. But just the depression man from you, you, you end up going so high surfing these waves. 'cause it's like surfing but everything's intensified. And the depression the next day is something that I don't, in hindsight, I don't know if it was worth it when you weigh up the risk that you, you know, the work that took to get there, the risk that you're, you're taking to do it. The come down afterwards and the desire to do it again. 'cause that adrenaline rush is next level. Like those guys that do big wave surfing like that on a regular basis, they're, they're, they are different animals, man. They're different machines. Yeah. Sounds like a drug addiction, doesn't it? It's certainly, well a lot of them end up, you know, doing that as well. Yeah, true. A lot of stories in surfing of, of that as well. But I mean, yes, you can get better as as you get older, but I think it, it matters on how do you define better? Do you know? Do you know what I mean? Like, is it surfing a different Yeah. What, what is the style of surf? Because I think for years, myself included, I was a victim, maybe that's not the right word, but also. The surf industry was telling me what board to ride, what style of surfing to do, do you know what I mean? I you constantly fear of being judged, so when you go no stuff, all that. I just want to, I just, I'm happy get taking a bigger board and going and surfing over there where no one else is surfing and catching the novelty waves, but getting 20 of them in 20 minutes. Because no one else is there, rather than going over there and trying to get three to the beach off the crowd. So that's part of it too. , And you mentioned, yeah, I mean, PE people say buy a longboard, but I, I find longboarding boring as shit. I want to still ride my shortboard, still want to try and get barreled if I can. , That's where, that's the super exciting stuff, but it's just annoying when you're like. On a good wave and you're like, oh, I might hit the lip here, and you'll just blow it and you just know because you haven't, you're not fit enough or you haven't done enough surfing or you, you're just getting old and your reactions are slow. , My kids skateboarded and uh, when I was about 40, I reckon, or. Maybe, yeah, about 40. I was like, oh, I used to be able to do a bit of this. Go on the skateboard. Like the reactions when you fall, you just don't have those same, like they just sort of step off. But I would get flat onto the pavement, you know, that's, I was just, my reactions are way too slow. . And there's nothing much you can do about that. I think, you know, that's just, just a factor of getting old. You probably get a little bit wiser as a surfer in terms of. Reading what a Wave's gonna do and setting up a little earlier, you know, in fact, I'm sure when you see Kelly Slater trying to do hes and stuff, he doesn't pull many of them off anymore. . You know, but he, but put 'em in 10 foot pipe. He's like the man, you know, he can just slot it just beautifully. But when he is trying to do these tricky little maneuvers on small waves, he's just not quick enough. He doesn't have that reaction time like he used to. . Yeah. But he's a good example of someone who hasn't let go of, you know, he still wa he, I guess in, there's probably a small part of Kelly Slater's that still wants to be able to beat Philippe, Felipe Toledo and be as fast and as quick as him. Yeah. And I'm sure that just though, really, like there's no way. Yeah. And it, whereas you look at someone like Skip Fry, who's just happy to, to Highline on a glider. Style in his, in his eighties, you know? Yeah. And he's, and Joel t will say he's the best surfer in the world. So it's, it kind of of does depend on your perspective and what you think better is, and it's, you do have to have quick reactions in some ways, but also I think as you get older, as a surfer, you get better at predicting the waves. So there isn't a need for quick reactions because you're just better at predicting the wave anyway. Yeah. I guess it depends on what feels the best to you on a wave. Like what feels the best to me is if I go up and hit the lip and do a turn, I'll go shit that felt good. You know? That's what I like doing. And it's, it's the, it's the stuff of a younger man really to do it really well. I mean, of course we can do it, but those, the guys that are doing it the best are the young men, you know? So I'm never gonna be able to hit the lip like I could when I was 40 or 45 maybe. 'cause I think I still was getting better at that point. But. You know, it's only downhill from here. I think, like I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I think the more, if I want to maintain that, you've gotta train much harder, I reckon, as you get older. Oh yeah. In order to maintain the same level, you know, and that's, that's time and effort. And , someone will go, do you want a beer? Come around for a beer or whatever. I'll be like, okay, you know? Here's some canon beer on a cracker, and I'll have a couple of those. Next thing you know, I get on the scales in a week and I'm like, oh geez, I put on a couple of kilos. Yeah, over Christmas, whatever. You just get a bit relaxed, I think, and you don't burn off the, you don't burn it all off like you used to, and it, it requires more effort, you know, requires more discipline, more effort, more time, probably, I think, than when you're a young man. That's the way it goes though. I'm alright with it. I'm at peace. I know I don't sound like I am, but I am. I still enjoy it. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's the main thing, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But you mentioned fear and that that does come a lot into it, especially, I think a lot of surfers don't even realize how scared they are because a lot of the, I think a lot of the fears that we have of surfing is, is sort of unconscious because your brain. Whether you, you realize it or not, your brain knows how dangerous the ocean is. , You might not realize that you're essentially a victim of a shark attack or a tsunami to, to think of the extremes. But then of course, everyone knows there's a rogue set every hour. And there's, you maybe didn't read that rip properly or someone ditches their board in front of you or, I mean, the, the list of ways that things can go wrong when you're surfing is, is endless. And whether you are consciously aware of that doesn't matter. 'cause your brain is, and if you haven't prepared or consciously thought through those risks, then that's essentially taking away from you entering a flow state. And when we enter a flow state. That's when your reaction times, uh, switched on and where you're not necessarily Yeah. Thinking. So it is to do with that, and I think everyone feels that. Yeah. And you feel that sometimes when you surf. Right? Sometimes I, , it'll be big and I'll go to paddle in and then I'll pull back and I'll be like, oh, what I pull back for, you know, you know, I know that I'm scared. Like I, , the bottom's dropped out and I'm looking at a, you can see the reef, and I'm like, holy shit. But then other times you're just like. You know, I, I don't, you don't seem to feel any fear. Like, and you just, your feet hit the middle of the board every time and it doesn't seem to make much sense, but I know what you mean. That flow state is awesome and it's kind of one of the, I guess one of those things that, it's one of those reasons that we keep coming back. Surfing's such, like, there's so much hard work for kind of small reward. I mean, it's all, it's not small reward, but those times that you hit that flow state or get that perfect wave or get barreled or sew. For me anyway. They're so rare that it's like a gem, ? It's like a golden moment. It's like, oh my God, it's amazing. You know, that, that, that happened today. You'd be buzzing for days after it, you know, after one. It could be one good wave. Yes, and I've got this really weird, um, I've talked to my mates about this. It's kind of weird. I, I can remember waves from when I was 18 or 19 or, you know, all of, you know, for the last 30 years I can remember particular waves that I've had. And I tell them, they're like, what are you talking about? Like, I can't remember individual waves, but I can remember those waves. It's really weird. But it's just those times where everything comes together, you're like, whoa, I surfed that like a guy that's been much better than me. You know? And that just like gives you that little glimpse of what, what might happen a bit more often if you keep going. Yeah. Yeah. You keep going. Sounds a bit like a drug addict, doesn't it? Yeah. But it's a, it's a healthy addiction vibe if you can manage it. Yeah, of course it is. Yeah. No, I'm save selfish creatures though, that's for sure. Like I, you know, as a, I'm sure so many surfers will relate to this . Your misses will go, oh, , where are we going holidays this summer, or should we go there? And you're like, there's no, there's no serious thing. We're not going there. Oh yeah, that sounds all right. But what about this? And you'll manipulate and you'll squeeze and you'll suggest, and you'll go, oh, there's no batch. , There's no batches available there. We better go to this other place instead. And you leave it too late so there's no accommodation or whatever. But we're terrible manipulative, , like drug addicts are, oh, that's all right. It's surfing. It's gotta be done. You gotta have something, right? Yeah. Yeah. I do feel sorry for all those, , well, women and men, they have to suffer for, for their surfer in their life. Well, most people like the beach, right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's, that's, that's all we, we've got all these, yeah, we've got all these incredible like great walks in New Zealand, like world renowned walks. I haven't done a single one of them 'cause for the last 30 years, anytime I get a bit of time off, I go to the coast. Haven't done a single walk. Milford track the root band. Not a single of them. Terrible. Oh yeah. I think I'm the same. But you've probably been to more beaches than most people. Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah. I got a, I got a chart on my wall of all the places I've surf and it's, it's pretty full. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it keeps you, you know, motivated to get up early and, you know, stay fit and strong, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's that, , it's that quest to find that, um. That empty wave, that perfect wave somewhere is just so strong. Like with, without anyone else around. Actually, that's, so the, , my book mine that is the kind of, that's kind of the, uh, the motivation behind it. So have you read this? No. Have you read mine? So mine is, , I don't know if you remember about six or seven years ago, um, there was a guy called John Chow and he was an American missionary and he went to this island in the Indian Ocean called the, north Sentinel Island. Do you hear of this? No. So North Sentinel is this, , tiny little island and the Enderman Sea. Indian Ocean. Yeah. And it's part of that group, of the Nicobar Islands. And it's, so they reckon the people that lived there have been there 60,000 years without any human contact from the outside or very little. So John Chow went there 'cause he heard about them and he thought, well they need to be, you know, I'm a missionary. They need to be turned to Christianity. He turned up and they murdered him on the beach. And the Indian government, which, , administers that part of the world wouldn't even pick up his body. So because they were, they just. Won't be contacted. If you try and go there, they'll fire at you with bows and arrows. They're amazing. When I heard about this, I just went down this rabbit hole, and if you look, if you go to North Sentel Island on Google Maps and you zoom in on it, and the south of the island are two of the best surfing setups I think I've ever seen. It's like a mirror image breaking into this path and , it's perfect. And every time that Google updates this image, it's just better every time. It's unbelievable. It looks so good. So I was like, whoa, that's a good set setting for a book. But I had to come up with this. So I came up with this Aussie guy who's, his life's kind of turning to shit and Aussie, and he goes to Indo and he's just sickened by the tourists and the crowds and the filth, and he just keeps going up, up, up the archipelago. , And he ends up going to, he meets this fisherman who can, who brings him to North Sentinel. And then I had to come up with this premise that would be believable. Why he would not be killed if he ended up on the island. And , I won't tell you, I won't tell you what that is, but he ends up on this island in every surfer's dream of paradise with nine different, perfect waves on it. Wow. And , chaos ensues. So it's quite interesting. , Yeah, it's, it's been, it's been, , an awesome kind of journey with that book. Like it, you know, I, I. Get told about people that have taken it on, on board their surf charter for 10 days and it's gone through every single one of their mates, , as they're going around surfing these waves in this area. So, , yeah, so that's one of the books. And the other one is Lines, which is set in Ireland. 'cause I lived in Ireland for eight years and , kind of got a little bit involved in the surf scene there. , I've set that one in a, kind of the backdrop as a kind of brutal Dublin criminal drug smuggling gang, , and the waves on the West coast. So, yeah, they've been fun. Oh, cool. Yeah. I think I've listened to a few chapters inadvertently at the end of your, your podcast. Oh, yeah. Cool. I'll send you the book. Cool. I'll post it over to you. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Is it the, the Aussie guy who came upon his father? I remember that chapter in the garage. Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. That was heavy. That's from mine. That one's from mine. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was actually, weirdly, there's a, , I think there's a movie coming out, a Kevin Costner movie called Head Hunters. And apparently it's about a guy, a surfer in Indonesia who's real sick of everything and goes and finds this perfect paradise island with perfect surf on it. Like, hold on a minute. That sounds like my story. So I'm waiting for it to come out before I sue. You know, you might get some royalties in the post. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully. I doubt it. So do I. You gotta, , you gotta go to LA and pitch your idea. Yeah. Too late probably. Yeah. There is, , some movie interest in the, , in the Lines book though. Oh yeah. There's some people looking at making that to a film. That's kind of all I can say at the moment. Yep. And apparently if anything gets ever gets made into a film, it's a miracle. So I'm kind of crossing my fingers, but not really we'll. . Yeah. I think it's a lot to do with who you know in the industry. Yeah. So it's getting the money. Yeah. Have all the guys with the good ideas, but unless someone goes, yep, yeah, I'll give you the money, it's not gonna, exactly. Yeah. Ideas are a dime a dozen, they say, and you only have to change something, what, 20% anyway. Right. And then you lose all. Legal rights anyway, so Dunno about that. Yeah, I think that's the case. Kevin Costner, hopefully he only changed to 15%. Oh, I say you're smarter than that. Yeah. Or his lawyers are. Yeah, they certainly are. That's how the world works. Well, , I encourage people to go out and listen to your podcast. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Tell us what it's called and where to find it. It's called Mad Surf Stories. It's on, apple Podcasts. , It's on Spotify and put 'em on YouTube as well. Awesome. , I've listened to every episode and I'm looking forward to hearing more. Yeah. And actually if anyone out there has got some mad surf stories, get in touch. I need some more. I've run out at the moment. I need some more people to come and have a chat to me. Okay. Have you reached out to Rob Bain? Rob ba No, he's, what did he do? , He was surfing in New South Wales and jumped off his board, landed headfirst into a rock and basically scalp scalped himself. Oh, that's not good. Yeah, I think he broke his neck as well. Well, it's been a, he, I interviewed him years ago. It's been a while. It was a mad surf story. Was he jumping off a rock or a boat? , You No, I'm just jumping off a wave. Oh, right. Oh no, that's not good. Yeah. Flyaway sort of thing. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, because you often do that, eh? When you, you like right at the end of the wave and you're like, oh, squeeze a bit more juice out of this. Yep. Next thing you know, look. Ooh, that's shallow. Yep. Tom Carroll must have some mad surf stories. Yeah. Oh, there there'd be millions. Yeah, there millions. I just need them to get in touch really. Yeah. Yep. Okay. And how can they get in touch? It was, I got, you can email me James@dragonbrothersbooks.com [James@dragonbrothersbooks.com?]. Yep. And website's same. So if you listen to the podcast. Yeah. www.Dragonbrothersbooks.com. Yep. , And that'll take you to all of my books and stuff, but, , there's a contact form on there. Yeah. Yep. Oh, I'm sure there's at least one person listening that is willing to share a story or knows someone that can, , share Yeah, your email address or this episode too, so, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Please do. Yeah, and I look forward to hearing more. Nice one. Thanks Michael. Alright, James, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks having me. Alright. Sweet. Yeah. Thank you. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

136 Why Surfers Don’t Come Out of Barrels (And How to Fix It) - The Neurology of Tube Riding

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/e8dfdf60-0b6c-406a-8ea7-b1d2b68094dd/136+Why+Surfers+Don%E2%80%99t+Come+Out+of+Barrels+%28And+How+to+Fix+It%29+-+The+Neurology+of+Tube+Riding+Surf+Mastery+Podcast.png?format=1000w] https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/podcast-surf-mastery/id1088660076 https://open.spotify.com/show/1VvhOpHEu31U4gktXJdkQv?si=ZUWd5smuSkaAh-4ukvIP7g https://www.instagram.com/surfmastery/?hl=en https://www.youtube.com/@SurfMastery/videos https://www.facebook.com/surfmasterysurf https://twitter.com/surf_mastery https://www.tiktok.com/@surfmastery https://surfmastery.com/barrel-mastery-academy [https://surfmastery.com/barrel-mastery-academy] What if the reason you can’t come out of the barrel has nothing to do with courage or experience, and everything to do with your brain? Many surfers believe that getting barreled is purely about skill, timing, or bravery. But if you’ve ever felt disoriented inside the tube, struggled to hold your line, or mysteriously fallen when the exit was right there, the real issue might be neurological. In this episode of the Surf Mastery Podcast, Michael Frampton reveals how vision, balance, and body awareness directly affect your ability to stay stable in the barrel, and why training your brain could transform your surfing. * Discover why disorientation in the barrel is often a neurological challenge, not a lack of surfing ability. * Learn practical tube riding techniques that help you stay balanced, compact, and focused on the exit. * Understand how improving your vision, balance, and proprioception can elevate every aspect of your surfing.     Press play to learn the surprising brain-based insights and practical tips that could finally help you ride out of the barrel.  Transcript: welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, the podcast that helps you to become a better surfer in and out of the water. I'm your host, Michael Frampton, and today we are talking about tube riding, getting barreled, and specifically coming out of the barrel. If you've ever struggled to come out of the barrel, then this one is for you. Tube riding. It looks like the easiest thing in surfing 'cause all you're doing is standing there. There's little movement in tube riding. However, it is the hardest thing in surfing. It's also. The pinnacle of surfing, getting barreled. It scores the highest in competitive surfing and surfers dedicate their lives to traveling the world and getting barreled. I struggled with getting barreled for years, specifically. I actually struggled with coming outta the barrel. Getting into the barrel. Uh, it's not that hard. It is coming out. That's the hard part. , And for years I could not figure out why until I had a simple realization. And the realization that I had is that it was a neurological problem, not a lack of courage or experience. See, I was on holiday in New York and went to Ripley's, believe it or not. And as you exit the show, there's a giant spinning tube covered in LED lights and you walk through a bridge to go through it. And after about two steps into this space, I was completely disorientated and felt like I was gonna fall over the edge of the bridge. I was immediately intensely motion sick, essentially in my brain. Basically wanted to go with the spinning tube. I had to close my eyes and, uh, feel my way back out, and I was seasick for quite some time after that. At the time I was actually studying functional neurology as well as struggling with coming outta barrels. So I put two and two together, and I spent some time on improving my vision and my balance and my proprioception. , And two powerful things happened. Firstly, my tube writing became much, much better. I was able to come out of the tube, you see, 'cause the barrel is very disorientating. And if your brain doesn't have the ability to trust its vestibular system or the balance system, when your eyes, when your vision is confused. Then you will fall in the barrel just like I wanted to fall with the spinning tube at Ripley's or not. But when I improved my balance, my vision, my proprioceptive, my neurological inputs to the brain, when I improved those and my brain trusted them more, they became more accurate and faster. Not only was I able to come out of the barrel, everything got better, all of my surfing got better. I just felt more confident and comfortable in the water. I actually also got stronger in the gym and I stopped getting seasick, so I was able to go on a boat trip. And if it wasn't for all that neurological work that I put in, I wouldn't have been able to surf Cloudbreak. You need to go on a boat and if you are motion sick, when you get to a, a wave like that, you're not, probably not gonna paddle out. So I managed to get barreled at Cloudbreak. All because of some simple neurological training. So if you are someone that struggles to come out of the barrel and you're not sure why, , this is most likely the reason. Improving your neurology will not only improve your tube riding, but every single aspect of your surfing, the way you move your posture and even your health, there actually have been studies, about people improving their vestibular function or their balance system. They actually improve their mental health as well as a pub med study all about it. I have just released a group coaching program coming up that will take you through all of this. You'll learn how to assess and improve your vision, balance, and body awareness. We'll go through some practical tips for tube writing as well. To find out more and to register, you can go to surf mastery.com and check out the link there on the homepage. And of course, there will be a direct link to this program in the show notes. I'm more on that at the end, but for now, let's get into some, tube writing tips. Tip number one. This is the obvious one. You've gotta find barreling waves. So you've gotta specifically travel to waves that are known for barrels. Now that might just be a local beach break. , And then within that beach break you need to be selecting the waves that do barrel. Or going outta your way to go to a reef break that is known to barrel. So yeah, you gotta find them. Tip number two. You have to feel comfortable with pulling in and falling and pulling into closeouts. You gotta get comfortable with failure in the barrel. That is key. . Just like anything, the more times we fail, the closer we are to success. If you want to learn to drop in on a vert ramp, you have to first learn to knee, slide and to fall. And if you happen to watch the recent stab in the dark with Kelly Slater, there was a candid look at some of Kelly Slater's surfing and you'd be surprised how many times that he pulls into closeout barrels. 'cause if you don't pull in and try, you never know if you're gonna make it. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of failure, so you cannot be afraid to fail. Side note, improving your neurology and especially your body awareness actually will make you safer in the barrel to be ready for what happens, uh, when things go wrong. Tip number three, which segues from there is your true riding stance. So if you've got any kind of poo man stance where your head is forward of the inside rail or your butt is sticking out further than your outside rail, you're gonna get clipped. Yeah. Your butt is gonna get hit by the lip. And in reality, the barrels that you're gonna be going for are going to be small barrels. And the more you can compact yourself into a good tube riding position and keep your entire body over top of your board and centered, and a good functional tube writing stance with your hands in the right place, ready for the board to slip under you. Your hands are there to stop it hitting your face. It just happens to be the right, uh, position to be in the barrel as well. Kind of like a tucked in fighting stance of sorts. Nice and compact. Nice and safe, compact and fitting in the barrel. So we need to have very good and accurate body awareness and strength in that position of a good tube writing stance. I. I recommend practicing in front of a mirror, and of course, we will go into a lot of detail on this during the course. Tip number four, keep your eyes on the exit. We have a tendency to look up at the lip in the barrel. We can get kind of hypnotized and distracted, and of course we tend to go where we are looking. So if you are looking up at the curling lip, your board will drift and you will fall. So keep your eyes focused on the exit. Tip number five. Do not solely rely on your visual field. Instead, we're gonna bring some focus into how it feels. How does your board feel under your feet? How does your body feel in that position? Am I balanced? If your vision is wiped out by a chandelier inside the barrel, will you be able to hold your position and your balance? Your visual field is the first thing to get confused inside the barrel. 'cause the barrel is a very disorientating place to be. So we need to rely on your feel and body awareness. So not only working on your tube riding stance in the mirror, but trying to hold it while you close your eyes. Open them again. See how much of that stance that you have maintained. Again, more on this in the course. Tip number six, listen to the wall. You know when you're trying to listen to someone in another room and you sort of creep up to the door and you move your whole body really close to the door and you slowly just lean your ear in towards the door to almost touch it. Trying not to make a sound. We kind of move our entire body closer and closer, almost touching the wall. Fingertips are just touching ears, just touching. We can do something similar in the barrel. Just lean in to listen to the wall. We kind of lean in. With our whole body, we wanna get nice and close to the wall of the wave. That's a reference point. We can even reach out and touch it to slow down. But we know if we're in a good body position, our butt's not sticking out on the outside rail, and a lot of us is nice and close to the wall. We are less likely to get clipped by what we can't see behind us. So leaning in and listening to the wall, that was a tip that helped me a lot as well. So I hope some of those tips help, and I hope to see you on the course. Again, go to surf mastery.com, or there is a direct link to find out more about the course and to book. It starts up in a couple of weeks, If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Thanks for tuning into the Surf Mastery Podcast and until next time, keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

135: From Presidential Speechwriter to Surfer – David Litt

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/18c44017-3f03-4e5e-a389-05846e82c32f/David+Litt+Surfing.png?format=1000w] What happens when a former White House speechwriter, who’s written for presidents and packed auditoriums, decides to humble himself in a cold New Jersey lineup at 35? David Litt isn’t your typical surf author. He joined the Obama White House at just 24 and became one of the youngest senior presidential speechwriters in history, crafting remarks on healthcare, climate change, and even comedy for the Correspondents’ Dinner. After publishing Thanks, Obama and Democracy in One Book or Less, he turned his attention to something far less controllable than politics: surfing. In this episode, David brings a writer’s precision to the chaos of learning to surf as an adult, articulating the fear of hold-downs, the shame of kook moments, the obsession with progression, and the addictive pull of those brief, otherworldly flashes of flow. It’s a refreshing take for surfers: not from a prodigy, not from a lifelong local, but from someone who can actually put words to what most of us only feel. 3 benefits you’ll gain * A deeper understanding of why surfing feels “more than a sport,” and how chasing flow reshapes your mindset in and out of the water. * Practical perspective on fear, embarrassment, and adult progression, especially if you didn’t grow up in the ocean. * A renewed appreciation for the lineup as neutral ground, where politics, profession, and identity fall away, and only waves (and humility) matter. Hit play for a thoughtful, funny, and surprisingly relatable conversation that will leave you seeing your own surfing journey, and your next paddle out, in a whole new light. https://www.davidlittbooks.com [https://www.davidlittbooks.com] Michael Frampton: are you still surfing? David Litt: Yeah, I mean, right now I'm in Washington, DC but I was in New Jersey just a couple of days ago and I was out, , actually with my brother-in-law. We, we went out and it was,, good. , It's gotten cold, but it's also gotten less crowded, so it kind of works out. Right. That's the, that's the trade off in Jersey is in the winter, the crowds go away, but , every time you get. You know, you take a set on the head, you have the worst ice cream headache of your life. Michael Frampton: Yeah. It gets cold there. All right. Like really, really cold. Yeah. Ice floating down the Hudson and , into the sea. , David Litt: I think the coldest I've surfed in is probably like 35 degrees. , So what, that's something like. Zero or one. Michael Frampton: Yeah. David Litt: Chelsea Michael Frampton: just David Litt: doesn't, doesn't get much Michael Frampton: colder. Really? David Litt: Yeah. It's basically ice cold. Although it is, it's one thing that I like about surfing on the East coast in the US is one way you can kind of prove that you belong is if you're a new surfer, you don't necessarily need. Skill, if you're willing to show up when it's really miserable out right. You get a certain kind of respect just for being there. , And you get more respect if you can actually surf. I've heard. But, , hopefully , I'll discover that firsthand one day soon. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well, surfing is a, it's a hard sport. , David Litt: I, I think it's one of those things, if I had known how difficult. Surfing is when I started, I definitely would not have started, , especially at 35 years old. So I'm really glad that I had no idea because I, I've gotten so much out of it. But if I had known how difficult this was gonna be, I never would've signed up for it in the first place. Michael Frampton: So when was the point, like the tipping point of that? Because obviously you were motivated to start and then you got to a point where you're like, oh man, this is how you must have, there must have been times where you thought, I'm just gonna give up. David Litt: Yeah, some of it I think is the cliche, right? That first wave you catch, even if it's just you're in the whitewater and you look back on it a few years later and you're like, maybe that was all of four or five seconds. But there's something pretty remarkable about it, and I think what I really fell in love with quickly was that sense that when you are. Up on a board, you're like in a different dimension, right? I always feel like it's almost like a, like a door to Narnia opens up, right? It's just this different place. And I started surfing at a time in my life where I was pretty, I, I just kind of gotten out of, or was maybe getting out of the only real episode of true depression that I've ever gone through. And it was really, uh, it was really tough. I mean really, really tough. And so I think the idea of being somewhere else was more attractive than ever. And. That absolutely hooked me in, right? That feeling of, okay, you're up on the board, that you're in this entirely new reality. And then. The ride ends and you're like, how do I get back there? Right. That was a big part of it. And I think the other thing honestly was I was surfing with my brother-in-law. He's a good surfer. I knew I was gonna see him for the rest of my life, and I knew that if I chickened out, he would kind of judge me for it. And I was like, I cannot let that happen. And that was a very powerful motivator, right? I talked to other people who learned to surf as an adult without a family member who was always gonna kind of roll their eyes a little bit if they gave up. And I don't know how they do it. Michael Frampton: Yeah, well I think it comes back to that, that original flow state that you felt and you connected with the ocean and your mind went blank for, you know, a few seconds on that ride. And it's that feeling that we, that we chase, it's so much more than a sport. David Litt: Yeah, absolutely. I think it was one of the hardest things in the book actually, because you, you don't wanna call surfing a sport 'cause that seems to diminish it, but then you don't quite know, there's not enough other words to dis, you don't wanna say an activity or a hobby or what, weirdly. Right. Writing a book about surfing, there are lots of challenges, but one of the biggest challenges was when you're describing the category of things that surfing falls into, what do you call it? And I don't even know that I succeeded in that. I think sometimes I just. Said, okay, I'll call it a sport in this sentence. And then, you know, but it was, , every time I did, I felt like it's like, ah, no, it's not quite doing it justice. Right. Michael Frampton: Mm. That's, I think it's, that's part of the allure of surfing. David Litt: Mm-hmm. Michael Frampton: I like to describe, I think it's an art, , simply. David Litt: Yeah. Well, you haven't seen me surf, but yes, it can be. I've certainly seen people surf and think that's, that's, you know, and it is a, it's a. It is a for people when I watch good surfers and I, I didn't, I don't, I wouldn't say that I am, um, especially artistic on a board, uh, yet maybe one day. But I do think I have an appreciation for that art that I didn't have before. So I, I will watch someone now and, and not just say like, oh, they look like they're good at surfing, but have a sense that they're expressing themselves. Via surfing, and that's cool, right? Like there's not a lot of, there's some other sports like that or some other, you know, pastimes, whatever you wanna call it like that. But it's, you know, if you're a, if you're a distance runner, you, it's less about self-expression, I think even though it, there's lots of things to recommend it. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I, I, I think surfing's more akin to. To music because David Litt: mm. Michael Frampton: You, you know, you, there's plenty of good artists or musicians who are very famous and have written great songs, but they're not technically very good musicians. David Litt: Mm. Michael Frampton: Like, like the punk rock era. You know, where they just sort of choose a, a, a line and they stick to it and they get very good at that particular style of music, let's say, but they might not even know what chords they're playing or David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: Anything like that. And I think that's the beauty of surfing is it's definitely a sport if you want to ride a performance shortboard and enter competitions. But, but anything outside of that really, you choose whatever surfboard you like and whatever beach and style of surfing that you like. You can specialize in that and get reasonably pro proficient. You might not be able to go to Hawaii and surf a, a performance shortboard, but man, if you can, you know, ride some, some waist high or, or shoulder high nice waves on a longboard and you do it well, you're, you're still technically an artist and a surfer. David Litt: Absolutely. It's one of the things that I actually struggled with surfing because I tend to be the kind of person who says, okay, you, I'm doing a thing right now. I wanna get better. I want to, you know, keep progressing. Not in the, not in the most technical sense of, you know, I want to be able to pop up on a slightly steeper wave, but saying, okay, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? And surfing helped me rethink a lot of things in life because with surfing, as you're saying. There sometimes isn't a next thing, right? Sometimes the point of surfing is to do it, and that sounds so obvious. And then at the same time, it's not how I lived the rest of my life, right? When I was at the White House, I was writing for the senior staff and I loved my job. And then I thought, okay, but I'd really love to write for the president. And then I think, okay, what kinds of speeches haven't I written for the president? I want to do that. And, and being driven in that way, I'm not against it. Uh, but it can also drive you crazy if you're not careful. Michael Frampton: But like that, that, that's such a, it's a good analogy because if you're gonna write a speech for the president, you don't have to be a good science fiction writer to do that. You know? You just have to, that's David Litt: true. Michael Frampton: You can compress your writing into a particular direction and actually get good at that. And that's what I think is similar about surfing. I think a lot of surfers that come in, especially, you know, since COVID, a lot of adult learners are coming in and the surfboard industry is just wants you to be a performance short boarder and feed you nothing but Kelly Slater and, and blah, blah, blah. I think that's really puts a lot of people off and makes people not really progress as fast as they should. But when you sort of approach surfing as more of an an, an art form and it's, you choose your path and it doesn't matter, then it's almost makes it easier. It takes a lot of pressure off as well. David Litt: Yeah, I, I think what you're saying, you talked about flow earlier and I think that's such a huge part of surfing for everybody no matter what age, experience level, you know, proficiency level you're at, almost everyone is chasing that flow. And it is true. I feel like boards are never marketed as this will help you, you know, at your level, feel what you're trying to feel. They're all like, you know, it is, it is this, as you're saying, it feels like a path sometimes. , Al although I think the other thing that is. Changing. It's interesting because the, the surf industry I think has been pretty welcoming of all the adult learners 'cause. We're customers? Uh, no question. There's definitely some surfers who are like, wait a second, what are you doing here? And I, I get that. You know, I'm not trying to say that I don't understand it, but I do think it's the, and also some of that, by the way, is jealousy because I wa on my part, um, you know, on the part of adult learners or something fascinating about surfing is, you know, when I see, when I'm in Jersey on a steep day and I have yet to get barreled, that is, uh, it's, you know, I've gotten into the barrel. I've just never gotten out and. I watch, you know, someone get barreled on a like steep, you know, head high wave in jersey at low tide. And I know that they're not just doing something I don't yet know how to do. They're feeling something I've never felt before. And that's kind of, again, different with, with surfing, right? Like if I could run a six minute mile, I don't think I would experience a brand new feeling. I think I'd just be going faster. Whereas if I. Get barreled. I know that's a feeling I just can't describe yet. Know, and that I think is really cool, right? You're always chasing a new, unlocking these new feelings, these new perspectives, these new, it looks different, right? You, you have the sense that the world looks different each time you get to do something on a board you couldn't do before. Michael Frampton: Yeah. It's, , getting barreled is. One, it's far more complex than most people think. There's a lot going on. I'm learning David Litt: that. Yeah. Michael Frampton: In, in the barrel. You know, I, I remember when I first, I'm sure you've been to Ripley's, believe it or not, in New York, and. David Litt: No Michael Frampton: you haven't. Okay. David Litt: No, I didn't know there was one in New York. Yeah. Michael Frampton: Okay. Well, there's a, David Litt: I I grew up there. I feel like that's the kind of stuff that's like tourist stuff we don't Michael Frampton: do. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Touche. But there's, when you, when you exit, there's this giant spinning tube that has a bridge going through it, and there's all these light LED lights on the, on the tube and it's spinning. And I walked, I got about two steps into that tube and I just. I felt like I was gonna fall over the edge. I felt like I was gonna throw up. I had to turn around and go around the other way, and I was motion sick for a couple of days. Like it was a pretty intense experience and it made me realize, oh, that's why I can't get barreled. Because there's a, there's a mismatch in my sensory perception. I, I was, at the time, I was also studying neurology and yeah, there was a mismatch. My, my peripheral sensory and my balanced sensory system knew that I was level, but my eyes were confused at, and I was like, that's the same as the barrel. No wonder I fall off every time I'm in the barrel. So I went through this journey of really lining up my ocular and vestibular with your vision and your balance and that. Only then could I get barreled. So David Litt: interesting. Michael Frampton: You have to have a very, you have to have, almost have like an elite athlete, uh, balance and visual system to be able to go in the barrel because there's so much going on. David Litt: . And like, like everything, right? When you watch people do it and they do it well, it looks so easy. , That's the cha. I was just weirdly, I was, um, listening to the audio book of, uh, a biography of Lorne Michaels, you know, the guy who created and, and still runs, sat live. Michael Frampton: Mm-hmm. David Litt: And one of the, the many, many sort of quotes that he apparently says often is the pro. The problem with making things look easy is that people think it's easy. I think that's definitely, I imagine true of a lot of surfers. My experience so far is, this was last winter. Matt and I were out surfing. I had the, the guts to try to backdoor a wave. I got into the barrel. I had enough time to think, oh, holy crap, I'm in the barrel. And then, uh, my board hit me. Well, I had my hands up. It hit me where my face would've been if my hands hadn't been in front of it. So that's as far as I got. But I was like, oh, this is, I, this feels different. It wasn't transcendent 'cause it was mostly a board hitting me in my face, but it was like, this definitely feels like a new. A new experience. So hopefully, you know, one day I will, uh, I'll get there. Michael Frampton: Yeah, well, like Jerry Lopez says the first 20 years of surfing is just to test whether you're actually interested or not. And, um, David Litt: yeah, well he didn't start at 35, I guess. Michael Frampton: Well, touche Yeah, I was quite a late starter as well, and gosh, it, it was 12, about 12 years into my surfing journey before I really got a proper barrel. So, David Litt: yeah, Michael Frampton: it, it takes time. David Litt: Right. Michael Frampton: Um, one of the, one of the things in the book you say is it's surfing is like a language that's trying to kill you, which is very funny. Yeah. But, but also very apt. David Litt: Well, the, the thing that I, when I started surfing, you know, we've been talking about this, the, this idea that it's hard, but it doesn't look hard when you watch people who are doing it. And so when I started surfing, I thought, okay, you know, I figured things out in my life. Right? You know, you learn, you figure out, all right, you get better at this thing, then you work on this, that other thing. Um, and I've thought about that in other athletic things too, right? I grew up skiing. . It's just as a hobbyist, been a runner for a while, that sort of thing. I wrestled in high school, right? So I thought, okay, it's a sport, it's, you know, you, it's like a language, right? You just kind of learn by building blocks. I didn't appreciate the extent to which there is so much. So much of surfing is dealing with the fear and the kind of visceral panic that ha comes from being a tiny animal in a very big ocean, right? You're just like, oh, my whole evolutionary biology is. Exists to keep me out of here, and now I'm going into here. And that feels very different. And I, and the first time, , the, and I wrote about it in the book. The first time I got held down by a wave of any real size. I just, that was the moment where I was like, oh no, this is, this is not the same even as skiing, right? I say I love skiing, but I say to people, it's like, if every ski run started with an avalanche, right? Like it's a very different experience. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I think that's the, the, the biggest barrier for, for, for people to, or I think it's why people take so long to learn surfing. Mm-hmm. Is the, is the fear. And not just the fear of the ocean, but the fear of shame. David Litt: Yes. I, I was shocked by this, that for me. I thought I was gonna learn mostly physical stuff, right? I was like, okay, I'm gonna practice my popup and then I'm gonna get better at popping up. And mostly I have to learn how to pop up. And it's true. I'm still working on my popup. But for me, the real challenge of surfing has been learning to deal with fear, right? As you say, there's the fear of like, there's a big wave right behind me and it feels like it's gonna kill me. How do I not chicken out? But there's also that fear, especially as an adult, where you're like, I'm gonna look like an idiot a lot. And you know, I'm gonna have like teenagers laughing at me and I'm gonna feel less athletic than I've ever felt in my life. And yet I'm gonna come back to the beach the next day and do it all over again. And if you can do it enough times and you can get your mind right about it. That becomes liberating. I often say I don't think that surfing has turned me into a different person, but I think it's made me maybe 10% better at dealing with that fear of shame and embarrassment. But 10% is a lot. Right. That that's enough to change your life. And I absolutely think without surfing I wouldn't have had that, , that knowledge that I have now. Michael Frampton: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I think that's why kids learn a lot faster because they don't care how they look or David Litt: they just playing. Yeah. And you're used to looking like an idiot when you're a kid. Right. Like, and it's okay. Right. It's cute. When I started surfing at 35, right? That's around the age where you're just like, definitely not a young adult. You're not an old adult, you're just an adult. You're a regular adult. And so I came from, I had started working at the White House when I was 24. And obviously the standards, at least in the Obama, you know, I'm not, not commenting these days, but the standards at one time in the White House were very high. So it's not like you could learn on the job, but there was still a sense that youth was part of, you know, part of your identity. Right. So you were figuring things out. People understood that it was, , it was part of what made. People excited about you at 35, that starts to change a little bit. And so there's this idea if you're embarrassing yourself, you're not a young person figuring it out. You're just an adult who doesn't know what they're doing. And I think it's why a lot of adults stop learning new things because learning usually involves some amount of embarrassment, especially if you're learning something that you're gonna do in public. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's very true. Out, out of all my research, there's, there's only one surfer who started late in life that became any good at it, and that's, , Robert Weaver Wing Nut from Okay. The endless summer two, and, yeah. I was so surprised and confused when I found out he didn't start surfing till he was 17. I was like, that doesn't make sense. How do you get so good at surfing? David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: It starts so late, , and then I got the pleasure of interviewing him and it turns out he's been body surfing since he was five. David Litt: Yes. That usually there's often that loophole, right? Like, well, so Eve, this is obviously a, a lesser example of it, but, . So I, I've talked about surfing with my, my brother-in-law, Matt, and that's a lot of what the book's about. And I was always like kind of annoyed 'cause you know, I'd say like, oh, how long did it take you to feel comfortable taking off on a, you know, one of these head high waves that, uh, we get in hurricane season? And he was like, nah, I just always kind of did it right. Like he wasn't, and, and, and I was, where did that come from? But on the other hand, he did, he skateboarded for a long time, even though he started surfing. In his twenties, but he was a skateboarder for a while before that. And you can see that in his form, right? Where, you know, he's not a, a pro surfer, but he is definitely somebody who is expressing himself on the wave. And, and can, and I write about this in the book, can definitely turn some heads, , when he kind of claws his way onto. Something steep. And I think that is, , if he wasn't a skateboarder, I have to assume that he would be more in, at least I have to tell myself he'd be more in my situation, I, I thought that skiing would be helpful and it wasn't certain ways, but in a lot of ways it was just not similar enough. Michael Frampton: I grew up skateboarding as well, and it's, , the concrete is brutal. So David Litt: yeah, imagine far more I would imagine. I, yeah, I wanna get into, I have a surf skate and I just, like, we're talking about fear. I, I, the fear of embarrassment is wearing all the pads and being like the adult at a skate park, not knowing what they're doing. And then the fear of, , you know, physical injury is, is concrete seems a lot less fun to fall on than the ocean. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. But you're right though. I mean, learning to, you know, sort of working on your surfing technique on a, on a surf skate style skateboard is actually a really good way to sort of, to lock it in. David Litt: , Yeah, I gotta start to do that. We, we, uh, we were talking before, it's, it's winter here, so maybe not for a couple of months, but, alright. Yeah. Yeah. 2026 gonna be the year of this surf scape. Yeah. As long as long as you get knee pads and real good wrist guards. Yeah. And learn how to fall before you skate, which sounds strange. No, no, that makes sense. Like running up a ramp and, and, and sliding down it on your knees and your hands like, like a kid might do, and just learning how to, instead of. Land hard bang, but learn how to actually slide with it. Oh, I see. Okay. I'm glad we had this talk. Yeah. That was not what I would've done. Michael Frampton: Yeah. , David Litt: I would've just tried it and then probably not tried it again after I got hurt. Yeah, Michael Frampton: yeah. Yeah. Just really good knee pads and really good risk guards is, is what you need. , And a helmet obviously. Yeah. And, uh, and let go of all that shame David Litt: sense. Michael Frampton: Easy as that. David Litt: Yep. That's, yeah, just do those things and you'll be all set. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I actually just, was just working on an article at the moment about, how saying that, , good surfers are stoics by default because surfing teaches you stoicism without you realizing it. David Litt: I like that idea. Tell yeah. Tell me more about that. Michael Frampton: Yeah, well, I mean, courage, temperance, , justice and wisdom and all, all of the stoic virtues and things that the stoics talk about. I've been reading, , a lot of Ryan Holiday recently. Mm-hmm. Ah, surfing teaches you all of that stuff just by force sort of thing. David Litt: Yeah. And well, it's interesting because it's got this kind of hippie reputation. Right. Mm-hmm. But when you do it, so unlike I, I, um, I wrestled in high school, right? Wrestling is a character building sport for sure. That's what you call something if it's kind of unpleasant . But that's got a very macho reputation. Whereas surfing has this reputation, especially for people who don't surf of being very laid back, very chill, very California. But then as you're saying, right, a lot of these virtues are very, are much more like traditional sort of classical virtues. Michael Frampton: Yeah, definitely. I think that hippie reputation came from, gosh, if you could wind back the clock and go to first point Malibu, where the water's warm. Mm-hmm. And the waves are really easy and it's not crowded. Surfing pretty, is a lot simpler and a lot less dangerous. Now that's, that's sort of a little, that's a bubble, obviously, a bit of an outlier. Whereas, you know, if you wanna be a good surfer and surf all conditions and stuff, you, you need to be a bit more stoic than, than hippie. , David Litt: Yeah. Well, and, and surfing is interesting 'cause the other, the, you know, the things that I've done more of in life, right, involve. Either the comedy world or the political world, and those are also two universes where people think they really understand them, even if they have no real experience as a practitioner. Right. And surfing because of the beach Boys, because of, there's a vibe, right? There's all kinds of stuff. I always think that, right? United Airlines is the airline where I happen to have my most of my frequent flyer miles and all of their advertising. For like sign up for United Credit card and get how, however many free frequent flyer miles, it's a picture of a surfboard, right? That's, it's like the iconography has become so, so, so that everyone feels they understand what surfing is. And I think weirdly, you know, having now been surfing for a couple of years, I think it's mostly given me an understanding of how little I get it. , Where I think I would've said, oh, I kind of get that before. Okay, well I, I see the, whatever the t-shirt with the surfboard on it. And, , I, I listened to the Beach Boys, I, I, I know the vibe. And now I'm like, oh no, there's a lot more. And it's a lot more, it's a lot more complicated. And as you say too, right, like in all part, all kinds of parts of the world that are not very Californian and attitude. Michael Frampton: Yeah. I mean, surfing, it's , like, like we said before, like that, that moment where you're on a wave, even if it's for three seconds. We, we will go through so much to get another David Litt: mm-hmm. Michael Frampton: Taste of that. David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: And we forget about the struggle we went through to get it. David Litt: It is. I, it happens to me all the time where I'm like, okay, this has been a, you know, tough session or we, we've been talking about surfing in New Jersey in the winter, right? It's like, I'm freezing cold, I can't feel my feet and I'm just gonna get one more wave. But then you get that wave and you're like, oh, I'm, I just, I should get one more after that. , Totally forgot that it took 45 minutes and, it's snowing out and freezing and you say, oh, the next one I'll just, I'll just grab real quick. , And there's all kinds of ways you can talk yourself into. Into staying out. , Which is a good thing in some ways, but it's funny to me. I mean, part of, , I think part of this too, and I think I had a big chunk of this in the book, there was a lot of things in the book that I, I ended up having to cut because there were very specifically for surfers and no one else, right? Like I, there was my editor who has surfed, a couple of times in his life. But, and, and. Likes reading about it, but it was, isn't a nons surfer. He was like, you, you can't write about like, board shapes this much. Right? , No one outside surfing is ever gonna read your book If you have, you know, pages and pages that are about , a fish versus a mid length versus a long board. And so I, I cut that, but another thing I cut was, was this idea that. Wave energy is just not something you interact with at all as a human being. Right. In other words, going back to skiing, just 'cause it's what I'm familiar with, gravity. You, I, I know how that works. Centrif uh, centrifugal force, right? I know how that works. Now, skiing is, I, I love skiing, but it, you can kind of guess what it feels like to have gravity and centrifugal force acting on you. Wave energy is totally foreign, right? It's this, it's like being on an alien planet and that is a very addictive thing, I think. . Michael Frampton: It sure is the neutral ground, the great equalizer, right? David Litt: Yeah. Michael Frampton: It doesn't matter how good you are at something else, surfing Will will humble you. David Litt: Yeah. And, and everyone's chasing. Some version of the same thing. Right. I again, I have absolutely found myself, um, I think about the, the trip that, uh, my brother-in-law law and I, and, uh, we took to the North Shore, right? Obviously we were not the best surfers out there on the North Shore. We weren't even close. And I'll speak for myself, I certainly wasn't close. , But I was chasing the same thing as some of these guys who were, . Going after the big set waves that I was not going anywhere near. And , again, we're chasing very differently. I'm not trying to compare myself in skill level, but I do think there is that kind of. That sense of equal ground that says we're all out here looking for some version of the same feeling we can't find anywhere else. And when you're in the lineup, you also just don't know that much about other people, right? You don't know their politics. You don't know culturally who they are. You don't know what they do for a living, right? It's, it is it it, if you're out in the lineup with strangers in that moment. It feels very equal, or at least it feels , very leveling, right? It may not be equal once you get into the kind of meritocracy of who gets priority on a wave, but it's a very, it's a new society, right? It is on land. None of that stuff matters in the same way. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Oh, definitely. If it wasn't for surfing, what sort of relationship do you think you would have with your brother-in-law? David Litt: You know, it's interesting, I got asked that recently and I, if I get asked things like that enough, I'm like, ah, I gotta ask Matt what he thinks. So I haven't asked him yet. , I think we probably would kind of be where we were at the start of all of this, or kind of during the pandemic, which is kind of , not hostile, but just like. You're there. I'm there. Hey, how you doing? All right. Good to see you. And a little, and I would've been, I'm not, I wouldn't speak for him. I would've been a little juer of some of his choices in life, I'm sure of that. And I will also say as we kind of entered this new era, uh, right. Trump 2.0 in the United States, I think I would've felt less curious about sort of his life. Not, and, and, you know, he's not like a Trump. You know, like a big Trump guy or anything. But he, he is culturally and kind of all of, all of the demographic fault lines in the United States that are, you know, I'm sure wherever you are right now, you're kind of seeing play out, right? Matt and I are on opposite sides of all of those, just by coincidence, and so I think I probably would have not, I've seen him less, and I say this. With a little bit of, you know, we've talked about shame and embarrassment. I'm embarrassed to say it, but I think I would've seen him less as an individual person and more as a kind of demographic type. And then I would've wondered why he wasn't, you know, friendlier to me. So I'm glad I started surfing, I guess is what I'm saying. Michael Frampton: . And have you guys sort of pushed and pulled each other from either side of the political spectrum to gain some understanding and maybe even change a a few extreme opinions? Yeah, I think so. In certain ways. I mean, I, I kind of always say like, you can't, you, I'd, I'd ask him about how he's changed because that is also part of what I learned, right? David Litt: Is like when you try to just think you know what's going on in someone else's head, you're usually wrong. But even little stuff, right? Like I remember, so in, in New Jersey, , there we have a law, the plastic bag ban. You can't use plastic bags, you have to bring a reusable bag. And I remember when he was talking about, like complaining about that and saying, well, the reusable bags, they use up so much plastic, no one remembers to bring 'em, so you're always buying new ones. And I didn't really take that so seriously. I thought, oh, it's probably Joe Rogan said something about plastic bags and he's just repeating it. And the more I thought about it, and frankly, the more , the more I realized that my. That I was kind of being a jerk and not taking him seriously. Right. And the more curious or open-minded I got, the more I thought, okay, that's actually a pretty good point, right? I still would like us all to use less plastic bags, but this is not, , if I was, if I was running New Jersey, I'd be like, let's come up with a different and better way to try to, get people to use less of these things because this way is not working. And it's a small thing, but it's a big thing. The other, I, I often say this with, , with Matt, right? We went to Spain, , on a surf trip, and we stayed in an Airbnb that happened to have an induction cooktop. And I've always been a fan of induction for climate purposes, right. It's a, it's cleaner run, you can run it off electricity, hopefully you can run off clean energy. And Matt is now a big fan of induction because it cooks a breakfast burrito really quickly and evenly. And it's not that, well, we came to the same place, but it's, it's the kind of thing where if you don't. Step outside your comfort zone. You just don't encounter as many different things. , And when you encounter new stuff, it's one of the best parts of being a human being. You learn things. And so I think both of us have learned a lot. . Michael Frampton: That's really cool. Surfing is, , complex outside of the water as well. , If you could go back to speak to your beginner surfing self, what advice would you give yourself? , David Litt: Start swimming. We, I mean, that's the surfing advice I'd give myself, right? , It took me a lot and I, I've actually gotten out of the habit. I gotta get back into it. But it took me a long time to be like, oh, if I did, when I'm not, when I'm not able to surf, if I just go to a pool and swim laps. That's gonna help me last longer when I'm surfing. And I felt like when I was starting the, the biggest hurdle was an hour in or 30 minutes in, I'd get exhausted. And then everything after, that's just garbage, right? You're not gonna learn when you, when you can barely move. And so when I'm swimming laps, I can just get more out out of each session. And I think if I was talking to a beginner surfer and they, they were getting hooked, right? Like really getting into it, I would just be like, find a place where when you're not on a board, you can go swim laps. , And then. More emotionally, I think. I think I did a lot of things right, but I think what I would say is, kind of even more of that understand, I, the thing I wish I had known right from the jump, but that I, , an instructor that I had told me kind of quickly is to think about that question of, are you better than you were before , you got went out that day, right? . That I think is what changed for me, both surfing and made me think, oh, surfing could change my life, was when I started to say, all right, yes. I went out, I got my ass kicked. , I got up on one two foot wave. And other than that was just like pummeled by, , a series of sets that were the height of a garden gnome, right? Like, I did not feel very proud of myself, but I'm a better surfer than I was before I paddled out. And let's not lose sight of that. And once I started to think about that in other parts of my life, it really changed how I thought about. All kinds of aspects of life, and I think it's a big part of what helped me get out of, that period of depression I was in when I started. Michael Frampton: Yeah, that's a good point. . You, we don't really regret a surf. David Litt: No, I, it's, it's amazing how rarely you, you know, I,. Matt and I say this to each other a lot, especially when it's cold in New Jersey, right? It's just better to be surfing than not. And there are really very few instances where I think, oh, I, back when I was like dithering before, , I'm sitting in my warm. Home office saying, do I really want to go out today? Or I'm looking at the cameras and maybe it's like bigger than I'm used to. It's a little scary. And I say, all right, I'll go for it. Right. It, it is very rare that I've said to myself, I wish I hadn't. Almost always, I'm just really glad I got out there and , obviously that's within some limits, there's been days when it's double overhead in New Jersey and I thought, okay, well I will just watch patiently from the beach and that's cool. But within those limits, . Almost always, you, you, you regret not going, but you don't regret going. Michael Frampton: Yeah. How would you describe your relationship with surfing in the ocean? David Litt: Well, you know, that's a good question. I think that for me, a thing I had never experienced was just being out in the ocean. At all, right? I, I'd swam a little bit in the ocean, so I, you go to the beach, you duck under some waves. But that, but that experience of just staying there. , And I think it gave me like a new appreciation and respect, but a new appreciation for just being present in the ocean and for being in one spot. I'm the kind of person I tend to be moving around a lot, right? I tend to like the kind of person who says, okay, maybe there's a hike, right? I'm not, I don't wanna sit on the beach, I wanna go for a walk. And so to be in one spot or one relatively, you know, just one break for a long time and it's really paying attention to it, right? Really trying to understand that one wave or that one, , the conditions that one day you start to notice stuff. And that I think has been really one of my favorite things about surfing, especially in winter, in, in Jersey, right? Otherwise I would never go out in the ocean in the middle of winter. What am I? Crazy. And so, and sometimes you see really cool stuff out there, right? We've got some cool birds. Every so often you'll see a whale or some dolphins, , stuff that you just, you never imagined you would see really Beau. And we have great sunsets in New Jersey, very underrated sunsets. And , I was out the other day and I. More or less still dark. And I caught a couple waves, which was nice. But also like there is just a great sunset I never would've seen. And definitely not from that perspective. So that feels like such a gift, right? Just to be able to spend time out there. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Oh, it sure does. Yeah. Surfing is, . It's holistic. And so something you mentioned there was like, I mean, that is how you get better at surfing is looking for more and more details mm-hmm. In what's going on in the ocean. And I, I'm the same. I'm, I'm someone who never. Feels sitting still is boring and, but if I can just lock into sitting there and scanning that little sliver of horizon, trying to predict the next set, where it's coming, where it's gonna break, and reading the little, details on the, on, on the wave. Yeah. Or the secondary waves and the wind chops and all that jazz. The more, yeah, the more focused and detailed you get to reading and predicting the ocean. That is what makes the difference and that's what separates great surfers from good ones. David Litt: Yeah. Well, and, and it reminds me of writing a little bit in that if you just start writing, you might think, okay, I wanna write like big stories. And you have this idea of for the finished product. But if you talk to writers. There are almost all the kinds of people who say, oh, I really want to dig into that sentence, right? Yes, I also wanna do the big stuff. But it's not that, it's not that the sentence is boring, it's that until you really get into it, you don't know why a sentence is so interesting, why rereading the same paragraph over and over again. You learn something or, or rereading a book you really love, right? You, you learn something new every time. And so I think with surfing it's, and a lot of things that involve that kind of learning or the more you do it, the more you, you. Grow to appreciate the little things. And it, not in a like zen, kumbaya way, but just in a way of saying, oh, I didn't realize how, how much complexity there was and how much there was to learn. It's like so many things in life when you don't know a lot, you think there's not that much to learn. And then the more you know, the more you say, oh, there's a lot out there. I have, I don't know at all. Michael Frampton: That's a good point. , That's a great analogy. Yeah. 'cause sometimes we read a sentence. Especially poetry, I think, oh, wow. What an amazing sentence. And David Litt: yeah, Michael Frampton: you wanna read it again? And then you say, oh, then you, maybe the poet rewrote that sentence a hundred times before each word. Mm-hmm. Or each comma was correct. And so yeah, there's the, the details. Hmm. Yeah. When, why writing? When writing, when did your, , writing ability and passion begin? David Litt: Well, I, I was always a reader, right? I was one of those kids that just loved to read. And I think most writers I know that's kind of how you start, right? In the way that probably most chefs started is like they really liked to eat. When I was in college,, I thought I was gonna do comedy writing. I, I did standup comedy when I was in high school, growing up in New York, and I got to college. I did improv, I edited the Humor magazine. So that's where. The writing sort of started from was me saying, oh, I wanna do comedy and so I wanna write jokes and I wanna write funny stuff. And then I also had a couple of writing teachers in college who were really great. So much of it comes, I think, comes down to like, you have people who have done it, who believe in you that you can do it. And I have a lot of respect for people who just use pure willpower to say like, I believe in myself, even though I don't know anybody who, you know, can mentor me. But for me, I, I felt like with writing it was just, it was, I had a sense that this was possible. Then I ended up in DC and I, when I moved to DC in 2009, I thought I wanted to do healthcare policy because I worked as a field organizer for Barack Obama and, obviously United States, , famously without. Universal healthcare. And we had a lot of people, a lot of volunteers I talked to, I could see what the healthcare system was doing to them. And it turns out I'd be terrible at that. But I found, , there was a speech writing firm with former Clinton speech writers, right. Who had worked in the White House. And very early on, one of them said to me, , I think if you kept doing this, you could write in the White House one day. And I thought, okay, that's, I, I didn't believe him. But that meant a lot to me and that sense of someone who saying, I've done it, and I believe that if you work at it, you can do it. I mean, that's a really powerful thing in, in someone's life. Michael Frampton: Side note. , I think it's, , your surfing book is funny. It's very funny. David Litt: Well, thank you. Yeah. You know, I, , I know, I, I, I think trying to, I think it's fair to, I don't. Yeah, I was going for like the funniest surfing book, but I don't think the bar is super high. , There's some irreverent surfing books. There's, there's, uh, so it's not a, it it, but it's not a crowded category. There's really not that many surfing books. Actually. There's some, but compared to a lot of, you know, fly fishing books, there's so many fly fishing books. I, and I, I, I love a at fly fishing book right there. Baseball, there's a million baseball books. There's not that many surfing books. Michael Frampton: Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. But it's such a fresh take like. O obviously you're a very good writer. You are, you are. Well thought. And then you came to surfing already a writer, so you could articulate the experience as an adult beginner. So well, I'll be honest, like when I first. Once we had sort of confirmed this, um, interview, I was like, oh, I suppose I've gotta read this book about surfing from this beginner. And then, right. I was pleasantly surprised at how many times I was just laughing at your, your takes on the surf industry and the, the surf coaches. And, and also, you know, I, I learned a lot about. , What the journey is like starting surfing as an adult now. Sort of in, in, in the two thousands. 'cause I was a late starter, but I was still, you know, 18, , right. And it was, you know, 20 years ago. What I'm trying to say is like, those who are listening to this podcast, my audience, you might have the same thing or would wanna. No, read this book. It's very funny. It's a great take on surfing. You, you empathize with, with new surfers, you'll get a new look on surfing itself. , It actually inspired me to go to go surfing, reading the book. David Litt: Oh, well I appreciate that. No. One of, for me, and I don't know what it says about me, but one of my favorite experiences as a, as a writer is to win over a skeptic. Right? So my, my favorite. You know, when I say reviews, like, you know, , on Amazon or Goodreads or something, right? My favorite positive reviews are from people who are like, I, you know, like, why would I pick up a book about surfing? I've never thought about surfing in my life. Surfing bores me, and I love this book. Right. From that I, I'm always happy if somebody says that. But then also the same thing, right? Of people who say, 'cause my biggest. One of my biggest fears when this book came out was that people who have spent their whole lives surfing or, large parts of their lives surfing, would see this as presumptuous or, or not of value to them. And so I, the fact that there's, you know what you're saying and, and I've heard from other people, which, which makes me feel good, right? Is like that. There's like that. All right. I was skeptical. There's good reason to be skeptical, but I feel a little . I get what you were trying to do, which was specific and I found something for me in it, even though we've had very different experiences. Right. To me, that's, that's how I feel about writing in general. Right. Of like when I read something I really love and I say, oh, I have no idea fiction or nonfiction. Right. That's not me at all. And yet somehow we can connect. Right. I love that. That's why you keep doing it. . Michael Frampton: Yeah. I almost felt like the book was written for me, but I can also see how it was written for lots of different. People, it's very well worth. David Litt: Oh, well thank you. Yeah. If we, if we can keep, we can keep going with the praise, I'm fine with that. No, I, I but I really, I really do appreciate it. I guess it's, and it's one of the things you talk, you asked me like when I started writing and kind of, and, and I would say for me writing is like surfing in that and I've been writing a lot longer than I've been surfing and I'm much better at it. And, and I say that just 'cause I've been doing it for longer. . But I would say every week, maybe every couple of days I wanna quit. Right? Like the number of times my wife has heard me be like, maybe I should just give up on the whole writing thing. 'cause it's really hard. And the, the version for me of that feeling of being on a wave and you're kind of in a different dimension is when you make a connection with a reader, right? That it's not just the getting your own ideas out in the world, but it's that moment where when you feel like you and another human being have somehow. Connected, even though you may not have anything else in common. That's very cool. And it's, and it's hard to get that from, you certainly can get it from a lot of other experiences, but it's, it's hard, especially if you're mean, , you're not good at music. Michael Frampton: Yeah. Well that could be. David Litt: I, I almost failed eighth grade clarinet, so Yeah. That was, that version of human connection was out. Michael Frampton: Oh yeah. Have any lessons you learned from writing helped you to learn how to surf and have any lessons you learned from surfing helped you to be a better writer David Litt: Well, definitely surfing has helped my writing and we, we talked a little bit about this earlier, that idea of saying, I'm just, I'm better than I was before. Right? You have a, a really just crap day. And instead of saying, I let myself down, you say, I got better. And writing, you know, it's, it's not unlike surfing in that you can have just a really unproductive session. Right? You and, and it's not the ocean pummeling you, right? It's the inside of your own mind, and either because there's too much there or there's nothing there. , Why did I even think that I. Had the right to try to sit down in front of a blank screen and create something. And if you beat yourself up about that, it just makes you do it again the next day and you don't learn anything. So I've, I started to say, Hey, okay, this was, you know, if I get up in the morning and I thought, oh, I'm gonna write 1500 words and they're gonna be great, and I write 200 words in their garbage to say, all right, fair enough. But. Better. I'm a better writer than I was before I wrote this down. Right. Just by doing it, I got better. That's been really, really helpful As a writer going into surfing, I don't know that it's been quite the same. I don't know that being a writer and makes you a, a, any, any better at learning to surf. , I think it's probably for me, been the other way. Michael Frampton: . It's a really good mantra though, just remembering, uh, , I'm a little bit better than I was. It's sort of a great surfing philosophy that is valid for anything else in life. David Litt: Absolutely. 'cause then you also start to chase experiences. Because you'll learn stuff, right? Like you then you, , and some of this is cliche and a lot of cliches are cliches 'cause they're true, right? , You start to think rather than am I gonna succeed or fail? You start to think about the process. You start to say, okay, what decision is gonna lead to me , growing more as a person rather than which decision is gonna be comfortable and kind of give me a. A prize or a gold star or whatever, right? Often the stuff that pushes you the most that you learn from is not the stuff that feels like a success. And it's not so much that you're learning from failure, it's that you're learning from frustration, right? Like you, you aren't able to do something and that's why you get better at it if you could do it. You're not better. And I, I think that's, I will say that's, again, we're talking about probably surfing, helping me as a writer. , I really have to remind myself these days if I have a, if I go out and, , it's like a nice two to three foot day, really mellow, maybe in the summer. , I feel like Kelly Slater, right? I can catch anything I want and I, I can do whatever I want on these, , admittedly pretty small. , On my, on my admittedly pretty big board, but I, I feel, you know, I'm really feeling myself and then having to remember that's actually, like, that might be fun. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not success, right? , 'Cause if, if I'm not wiping out at least a little bit, then I'm, then I'm not pushing myself far enough. , And so the real days where I think, okay, that's a, that was successful. , You get a, you get a good wipe out in, right? You're like, oh, I didn't know what I, I went a little too far. . And that, I think is also true for, for writing, right? When I try to write, , I'm trying to figure out what my next book is gonna be now. But as I think about it, one of the things I want to do with, with every book or writing project is say, what's something I haven't, what's a muscle I haven't really developed before as a writer with this book, I, I thought a lot about descriptions of place, right? Just descriptive writing. 'cause that's not, I can do it, but it's not where, where I start as a writer. And so I was like, I really wanna focus on that. And so everything I try to think about, uh, how do you, how do you do something you're bad at? . Or at least not as good at? Michael Frampton: Hmm. Maybe you'll pick up the guitar. David Litt: Maybe I don't. I, you know, it's what, . I will say, so I'm 39 now, and I feel like the. The days of picking up the guitar and that being cool might be over for me. So now I'll have to do it despite it not being cool. But I feel a little better in that. , Better about that. No, I,, I think, I forget who it was who said that all comedians want to be musicians. And I think that is, that's largely true , there's plenty of writers. There's something about music. But I also think that, , one of the things I love is I write more is you start to be able to hear the musicality in. Language. , And especially, it's also a really nice thing about speech writing, which, you know, obviously I did professionally for a while and I still do sometimes, , occasionally. And a, a good speech has the, it certainly has a rhythm, right? It's not the same as a song, but it, it has a lot in common. Is more in common than you think. Michael Frampton: Oh, totally. Yeah. A good speech is almost poetic. David Litt: Yeah. And there's that, that sense, right? That silence has a lot and especially when it's delivered well, right? Silence, , these kind of crescendos that can build. President Obama was very good at that, especially at the end of speeches, right? , You could give him a very long run on sentence and he could al, he could sort of find. He could turn it into a crescendo, whereas if you gave that to most speakers, they wouldn't know what to do with it. Right. It would be like giving a really complicated piece of music, , to someone who's like, , good but not great at the guitar. They, they would struggle with it, but someone really good can take that and and turn it into something special. . Michael Frampton: Yes. Well, I think you took your experience, as an adult learner surfer in the surfing world and you know that in with some. Psychology and some relationship stuff, and it's a great book and David Litt: Oh, Michael Frampton: thank you. I think so. , David Lit, author of It's Only Drowning. Go and Get it. It's on Audible as well for those who obviously like listening to podcasts. David, , very well read by the way. David Litt: Thank you. I, I had to like even try some accents for that one. Michael Frampton: Yeah. David Litt: Talk about things that I was scared to do. Michael Frampton: Yes. No, it was very well read. So you're a good writer and you're a good speaker. I'm assuming you've had some media training as well, so well done. , Yeah. But again, David, thank you so much for taking the time I urge listeners to go out and, , check out David's book. David Litt: Well, thank you for having me. I'm, I'm glad you liked it. What happens when a former White House speechwriter, who’s written for presidents and packed auditoriums, decides to humble himself in a cold New Jersey lineup at 35? David Litt isn’t your typical surf author. He joined the Obama White House at just 24 and became one of the youngest senior presidential speechwriters in history, crafting remarks on healthcare, climate change, and even comedy for the Correspondents’ Dinner. After publishing Thanks, Obama and Democracy in One Book or Less, he turned his attention to something far less controllable than politics: surfing. In this episode, David brings a writer’s precision to the chaos of learning to surf as an adult, articulating the fear of hold-downs, the shame of kook moments, the obsession with progression, and the addictive pull of those brief, otherworldly flashes of flow. It’s a refreshing take for surfers: not from a prodigy, not from a lifelong local, but from someone who can actually put words to what most of us only feel. 3 benefits you’ll gain A deeper understanding of why surfing feels “more than a sport,” and how chasing flow reshapes your mindset in and out of the water. Practical perspective on fear, embarrassment, and adult progression, especially if you didn’t grow up in the ocean. A renewed appreciation for the lineup as neutral ground, where politics, profession, and identity fall away, and only waves (and humility) matter. Hit play for a thoughtful, funny, and surprisingly relatable conversation that will leave you seeing your own surfing journey, and your next paddle out, in a whole new light. https://www.davidlittbooks.com [https://www.davidlittbooks.com/] www.surfmastery.com [https://www.surfmastery.com/] Barrel Mastery Academy: https://surfmastery.com/barrel-mastery-academy [https://surfmastery.com/barrel-mastery-academy] The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

134: You’re NOT Too Old for Surfing: How Aging Can Actually Improve Your Surfing

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/b05591ef-0455-4316-ac67-353ba45bcb37/Not+too+old+for+surfing.png?format=1000w] ARE YOU REALLY TOO OLD TO SURF - OR JUST BELIEVING THE LIE? Feeling slower in the water, stiffer in the joints, or unsure if you’ve aged out of the sport you love? What if it’s not your body that’s holding you back, but your mindset? Surfing is often seen as a young person’s sport, but that belief is costing older surfers joy, progress, and freedom. If you’ve ever felt like your best surfing days are behind you, this episode shows that they might actually still be ahead. Backed by neuroscience and real-world examples, this conversation reframes what’s truly possible in your surfing life after 40, 50, and beyond. WHAT YOU’LL GAIN FROM LISTENING * A science-backed mindset shift that shows how the brain can get better with age, leading to smarter wave choices, emotional control, and more satisfying sessions. * Real stories of aging surfers like Kelly Slater and Laird Hamilton who defy decline, plus insights from The Mature Mind, The Mindful Body, and Gnar Country that expose the myths of aging. * Practical ways to thrive as an older surfer - from cognitive strategies to physical habits and creative approaches that will reignite your passion and performance. PRESS PLAY IF YOU'RE READY TO SURF SMARTER, NOT SLOWER Discover how to keep surfing, keep learning, and keep enjoying the ocean, for life. Books: The Mature Mind by Gene Cohen The Mindful Body by Ellen Langer  Gnar Country by Steven Kotler - or the podcast interview: https://jamesaltuchershow.com/episode/superpowered-aging-with-the-master-of-flow-steven-kotler [https://jamesaltuchershow.com/episode/superpowered-aging-with-the-master-of-flow-steven-kotler] https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id794030859?i=1000679523450 [https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id794030859?i=1000679523450] Transcript: Welcome back or welcome to the Surf Mastery Podcast, education and inspiration for Lifelong Surfers. Are you too old for surfing? I don't think so. I think we've been lied to about aging. I'm your host, Michael Frampton, and I hate to admit it, but I am an aging surfer and there comes a point in our surfing life where we start to think is that it? Is that as good as I'm gonna get? , Can I even continue to surf with this knee? Should I just buy long boards? Am I aged out of tropical surf trips? Now it turns out that this negativity is actually just disguised as realism. Sure we may feel less paddling power, slower popups, stiffer joints, pain, blah, blah, blah. A sense that surfing like most other sports belongs to the young. Our expectations shrink. Our wave count drops our tolerance for risk. Disappears. But it turns out not because the body has failed, it's because the story has, and once that story takes hold, it becomes self-fulfilling. We stop experimenting. We avoid challenging conditions. We stop getting up early for dawnies, we. We upsize all of our boards. We surf defensively rather than creatively. We confuse caution with wisdom and what looks like natural decline is really learned limitation. Now that is a tragedy because surfing is actually one of the rare athletic disciplines where experience perception, pattern recognition, emotional control, all of those things actually matter far more than raw athleticism or strength or youth. Your ability to read the ocean and to stay calm and be efficient is actually what makes you a good surfer. Having one toe in the surf industry, I've been lucky enough to have some conversations , with some older, amazing surfers, and whenever you ask them about aging, , they often just simply shut you down. I remember talking to Laird Hamilton in the water and I asked him about longevity and aging, and he just immediately shut me down, said, no, we don't even talk about it. We don't acknowledge it. We just carry on. And I thought that was a really, a really unique and cool perspective. But it turns out there's a lot of, a lot of truth backed by science to this way of thinking. And I've recently read a couple of books. The first one is called The Mature Mind by Gene Cohen. Now Gene looks at the science of the Aging Brain. And yes, some of our processing speeds decline as we age. And of course our bodies slow down as we age, but our brains can actually improve if we do certain things. The overarching principle of the book would be the use it or lose it principle. So if we keep doing stuff, we can actually keep getting better. Scientifically speaking, our brains begin to use both hemispheres better, and those hemispheres work together better. We become more emotionally regulated and less impulsive responses. We actually integrate our memories and perception better. We become more aware of who we are and what we want. So in surfing terms, our wave selection gets better. The way we read the ocean gets better. We can remain calm under pressure, and of course we know the types of waves, the types of boards, and the way that we wanna surf better. We become more comfortable in our own skin and maybe we don't surf as well from a competition surfing perspective, but we actually end up enjoying surfing more. Cohen also talks about neuroplasticity. Some of the old science suggested that we actually learn. That we, some of the old science, some of the old science suggests that we lose our ability to learn as we age, but it turns out that's not true. If we continue to deliberately learn, our brain can stay plastic and we can continue to learn stuff. And Cohen gives concrete tips about how to improve our brains as we age. And one of those is to continue learning. Now, that might be a language or a skill, something that's intellectually challenging. He recommends doing crosswords and puzzles and strategy games. . Engaging in creative pursuits, writing, painting, music, dance, any form of artistic expression, and learning a new instrument or if you already play an instrument. Continuing to learn more about music and, and new songs encompasses both the learning and the creative side of things. We need to maintain and expand our social engagement. So that means maintaining our friendships and relationships and community, but also a term Coan users is to cultivate cognitive diversity. And what he means by that is meeting new people, being open-minded to hearing other people's point of views, reading unfamiliar books stretching yourself, being open-minded. Things that we naturally did when we were younger. Staying physically active, that's really important. We all know about that. Uh, pursuing meaning and purpose, whether that's through a, a new business venture, helping others through parenting or mentoring or volunteering is really important. Surfing actually fits many of these criteria. Obviously, staying physically active. If we continue to surf with friends, we can maintain our friendships and relationships. We can choose to talk to different people in the ocean as well. If we continue to surf new places and experiment with new surfboards, it's another form of learning. Surfing is endlessly complex, but of course we need to do things outside of surfing. And Cohen recommends just simple things like doing puzzles, crosswords, strategy games, musical instruments, language painting, those sorts of things. And as we age, we'll find we actually have time for these things. But above all, adopt the growth mindset. Reject the belief that aging equals decline because it doesn't. And the science shows that if we do the right things, our brains actually get better as we age. Which segues beautifully into the second book that I read called The Mindful Body by Ellen Langer. She's a Harvard professor and central to the idea of her work is that many of the limits we attribute to the body are actually imposed by the mind. People don't decline simply because they're older. They decline because they become mindless, stuck on autopilot, rigid beliefs and fixed rules. She has a great line. Stiffness is cognitive before it's physical and function actually improves when attention improves. Mindfulness, novelty, variation, all play a huge role. One of the most famous studies in her book is the Counterclockwise Study where she placed older men in their late seventies and eighties into an environment designed to replicate life 20 years earlier. The furniture, magazines, TV shows, everything was 20 years earlier. The participants were told to speak and behave as if it was 20 years ago, and within days, physical changes improved their posture, improved vision and hearing improved blood pressure markers improved, increased independence. They even started playing football on the lawn. The body responded to context. Their bodies responded to the way they were thinking their beliefs. A fascinating study and a book I highly recommend you read. And surfing is full of great examples. Kelly Slater still surfing performance short boards in his fifties. Pete Mel winning big Wave awards. Shane Dorian just charging Twiggy skip fry surfing beautifully in his eighties. And that leads me into the third book that I read, NA Country by Stephen Kotler. Now Stephen Kotler, previously in the podcast of spoken about the rise of Superman, all about flow states. Steven is a lifelong skier and he decided to learn park skiing in his fifties, something that's usually reserved for a lot younger people. , And he found, he was, he managed to learn to ski parks and then he actually took a group of his peers and taught them how to park ski something that all of them initially thought wasn't possible. Now, of course they didn't learn to perform like younger athletes or learn as fast as them. And what Steven found all he had to do really was just make each progression steps much smaller, slower, fewer falls. But when and when these older skiers started to realize, oh, I can learn new things. It just takes me a little bit longer to learn. Then they started playing more and getting into flow states and their attitudes changed something he calls peak performance aging. So what does this mean for surfers? Well, it's all good news when we let go of the decline narrative and stay curious, surf different waves, different boards. Keep surfing, keep learning, keep engaged, keep playing. Then we keep surfing and we become wise surfers and we enjoy surfing more. Strength and speed matters less, efficiency and grace matters more. We surf for ourselves. With wisdom and without shame, and that is what Surf Mastery is all about. Reading the ocean, staying calm, surfing intelligently, for life. And of course, check out the Surf Mastery Method. Many course@surfmastery.com. It is all about how to read the ocean better and become a wise surfer. I. And go ahead and read those books. The Mature Mind by Gene Cohen, G-E-N-E-C-O-H-E-N. It's actually on Audible as well as an audio book. And the Mindful Body by Alan Langer, E-L-L-E-N-L-A-N-G-R. That book is actually also on Spotify if you prefer to listen, and NA Country, it's GNAR Country by Stephen Koler. I actually didn't enjoy the book that much. I don't. I think it was a little long-winded, but I did listen to a podcast episode where he was interviewed by James Altucher and it summarizes his perspective on aging and is very inspiring. So I highly recommend you listen to that podcast episode. I will have the title and author of those books and the link to that podcast episode in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it with an Aging surfer friend. And if you read those books, or if you've read any other books that you think align with this way of thinking, please write in and let us know. mike@surfmastery.com. Until next time, keep surfing and keep surfing until you die. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced

133 Why Good Surfers Think Like Stoics, and How Stoic Philosophy Can Make You a Better Surfer

[https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/6620239f21f2fa5a7b4e4234/c8cad1c3-9761-4fca-8d26-458b5c210c9f/Surfing+Stoicism.png?format=1000w] What if mastering the waves has less to do with technique, and more to do with ancient philosophy? Whether you're paddling out for the first time or carving your hundredth wave, frustration, fear, and unpredictability are always part of the ride. In this episode, host Michael Frampton explores how stoic philosophy offers timeless wisdom that every surfer, beginner or seasoned, can use to improve not only their performance, but their overall surfing life. * Discover how living “in agreement with nature” is the foundation of both surfing and stoicism, and why resisting the ocean never works. * Learn how the four stoic virtues, courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom - naturally align with the traits of truly great surfers. * Understand how to shift your mindset from ego to awareness, helping you manage frustration, navigate lineup politics, and stay stoked even in challenging conditions. Tap into the mindset of resilient, wise surfers by listening to this episode and learn how to ride the waves, and life - with stoic flow. Transcript: Why good surfers think like stoics and how stoic philosophy can make you a better surfer? I recently re-read The Obstacle is The Way by Ryan Holiday. It's a very famous book. , It's a short and modern summary of the ancient stoic philosophy stoicism and I realized just how stoic we are as surfers. Certainly good and experienced surfers, if you surf, you are already a student of stoicism. And if you're a good surfer, you're actually very stoic already. And if you're completely new to surfing, I think stoic philosophy can really help you on your journey. So today I'm just gonna give a little bit of an overview of stoicism and how it relates to surfing. Now one of the core teachings of early stoicism is that a smooth flow of life comes from living in agreement with nature. Surfing is a literal embodiment of this idea. You cannot fight the ocean. You must observe it and respect it, and learn to move in harmony with the ocean. Zeno, one of the original stoics who this teaching is attributed to didn't just mean nature in terms of mother nature and its literal sense. But he also meant it in terms of human nature, other people, society, and of course our own nature, which is very important I think, to to note these nuances. In surfing. Obviously we want to live in agreement with Mother Nature, the ocean and the weather patterns, et cetera. And as a surfer, we need to read and predict these, adapt and utilize them. But nature as in human nature, other people are. Because other surfers are everywhere, so we've got lineup, politics, and ethics. They're unavoidable, especially at your local break if you want to consistently go out and surf the same place amongst the same people, we have to get on with everyone and we have to learn the unspoken rules and ethics of surfing in general and also for that particular break. And of course, self knowledge, our own nature. Our own deep desires to surf. We need to live in agreement with that. 'cause if you try and deny that part of you, you live in fomo, fear of missing out, and you don't go surfing enough to satisfy that inner surfer. And, uh, it can certainly encompass and take over one's mind. And of course, if you go the other way and you embrace that inner surfing desire too much, it can certainly lead to ruining other aspects of your life and your relationships. So we must have a balance. We must learn to live in agreement with all three aspects of nature in order to be a good surfer. A smooth flow of life comes from living in agreement with nature. It's almost like a surfer came up with that principle. Stoicism at its heart is about focusing on what we can control and accepting what we can't. And furthermore, as surfers, we need to utilize what we can't control to adapt to and play with the ocean and the crowd. And if you want to be a good surfer, you cannot get away from that principle. , What can we control the surfers, . We can control the way we move. Our bodies, we can control our minds. What we focus on our inner dialogue, and of course, we can control our equipment choices and where we surf. We cannot control the weather, the waves, the conditions, or other surfers. We must learn to accept those. We can, of course, learn to read the ocean better and understand surf culture and human psychology, but we've got to accept these things as they are and focus on what we can control. The ancient stoics talked about four virtues, courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom. Surfing is dangerous, especially if you're gonna push yourself into bigger waves or surf rougher conditions or busier crowds. Courage is incredibly important. E courage isn't just about ignoring fear, it's about feeling the fear, acknowledging it, and moving forward logically. Improving your surfing requires that you repeatedly step into danger and discomfort, not recklessly, but willingly, and over time, this builds a quiet, [00:05:00] grounded courage, the kind that the stoics admired the most. Temperance. Temperance is about self-control and moderation. Now if you surf for long enough, you'll eventually call somewhere home. You'll become a local, and temperance is going to be really important 'cause other surfers and the ocean will punish anger and impatience and entitlement. However, mother nature and the crowd will reward. Calm and measured decision making. This is stoic temperance in practice. Temperance and surfing is about choosing waves without being greedy. It's about controlling your emotions and behaving fairly. It's about the way you conduct yourself, not only in the lineup and when you're surfing a wave. But also in the car park. If you show a lack of temperance and self-control or moderation, the ocean and the crowd will humble you. Now, this segues very easily into justice. Justice , is deeply embedded in surf culture, particularly with lineup politics, the ancient stoics associated justice with fairness, kindness and reverence, fairness and kindness. They're obvious and every lineup has its informal judges and experienced surfers that will enforce the unspoken rules. Now, sometimes that enforcement can come through harsh words or passive aggressive drop-ins, but reverence, reverence is an interesting word. The stoics thought of reverence as a deep solemn respect for something greater than yourself, the ocean. Surfing demands reverence for the ocean's power. It's chaos, it's cycles. If you choose the wrong wave or push beyond your capabilities, the consequences will arrive swiftly and the ocean will humble you. Without malice, justice will be served. So surfers certainly learn reverence through experience and acceptance. Wisdom. Wisdom is the application of knowledge. And in stoicism, it begins with understanding what you can and cannot control. Surfing teaches this lesson with brutal clarity. You cannot control the ocean or other surfers. What you can control is how you respond, and we respond with our board choice, the way we move the waves. We choose your positioning in the lineup, your timing, your breathing. You're inner a dialogue, and of course self-awareness and awareness of your surroundings. The wise surfer is hyper aware of both themselves and their surroundings. The wise surfer chooses the right board for their ability and the conditions. Good surfers exercise restraint when necessary. 'cause wisdom cannot be rushed. It comes from time in the water. It's not just about learning how to face the ocean with courage, but learning how to roll with it, how to dance with mother nature, having grace not only in the way you surf, but in the way you conduct yourself in the lineup and even the car park. And if we show courage and we maintain our temperance, our reverence, and accept the balance of justice, over time these traits can become instinctive and then we will become wise. Surfers. Now, the experienced surfer listening to this may just begin to realize how [00:09:00] stoic they already are, and maybe just how some of the philosophy that you've learned through your time as a surfer can be applied to other parts of your life. And if you are new to surfing, I think stoicism offers a really cool framework to think about surfing and to help guide your journey. , These simple principles can help you relax in the water, , manage frustration, trust in the process, and approach surfing with intelligence , rather than ego. 'cause as surfers, we remember those seven seconds on a wave, not the 90 minutes of paddling and duck diving and wipe outs and cold water and locals. We stoically choose not to dwell on the sufferings and the challenges. Instead, we remain patient, resilient and optimistic, always ready for and seeking out the next opportunity to dance on a wave. And it is the stoke of those brief, yet seemingly perfect moments that keep us engaged and courageous despite everything we must endure to reach them. Stoicism equals stoke. Now, if you're intrigued by stoicism, I recommend the book, the Obstacle is The Way by Ryan Holiday. It's a very concise and modern summary of ancient stoicism and meditations by Marcus Aurelius is the most quoted and popular original text. So thanks for tuning in and if you liked this episode, please share it with a friend. And until next time, keep surfing. The Surf Mastery Podcast:  For the passionate surfer - whether you're a weekend warrior, a surf dad, or an older surfer - this podcast is all about better surfing and deeper stoke. With expert surf coaching, surf training, and surfing tips, we’ll help you catch more waves, refine your paddling technique, and perfect your pop up on a surfboard. From surf workouts to handling wipeouts, chasing bigger waves, and mastering surf technique, we’re here to make sure you not only improve but truly enjoy surfing more - so you can get more out of every session and become a wiser surfer. Go from Beginner or intermediate Surfer to advanced